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#ask-the-speaker-plenary
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2020-06-25
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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:13

Where is the sticker with "I have mild depression over how to implement learnings 😂 "

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:13

Where is the sticker with "I have mild depression over how to implement learnings 😂 "

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Sophie Weston07:06:18

Only mild depression? You're doing well...

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:14

I'm just used to it .... The gap between individual understanding and systemic change is pretty big

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Chris07:06:35

Interested in one too!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech07:06:24

No need for a sticker if we all feel the same - commonality of suffering and that:)

Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his07:06:46

@U016L4WK2AC it's hiding under the sticker that says Dysthymic DevOps 😉

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili07:06:36

The sticker for "I've been teaching more trivial things for ten years in several organizations and now they'd have to be progressed so much further to grasp any of this"? 😄

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inactive07:06:29

Hello, @rasmus.hald!!!! So glad you’re presenting!!!

inactive07:06:49

“…we are doing this in literally the slowest industry on the planet.” 😆 😆 😆

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:58

Yeah, it´s a huge community and a great potential for us 🙂

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:42

Doing physical containers with virtual containers - that's a slogan right here

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:42

Doing physical containers with virtual containers - that's a slogan right here

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:43

Yeah, we claim the prize for most containers…! 😄

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Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his07:06:55

Multi-mode containerization #consultingspeak

inactive07:06:08

“consider how many trucks a banana must be on, throughout its entire journey thru the supply chain” Huh! From grower to market, when they’re literally on different corners of the planet!

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:14

It always feels like logistics and supply chains is just IT infrastructure on hardmode ...

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Vlad Ukis07:06:06

What a nice visualization 🙂

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inactive07:06:23

(PS: I had no idea that bananas has the same PLC code for banana everywhere on the planet: 4011. An example that the world strives towards order: https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2074352/ever-wondered-why-the-stickers-on-fruit-are-covered-in-numbers-theyre-actually-very-important/)

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Colin Claverie07:06:25

what is “bimodal IT” ?? #ELI5

Colin Claverie07:06:25

what is “bimodal IT” ?? #ELI5

Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG07:06:13

BiModal was a recommendation to treat part of your IT assets as waterfall/slow and other parts as fast. It’s generally seen as a poor approach. @damon

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Chris07:06:46

I would qualify it as having two streams running at different paces, one for your legacy apps and in parallel another one for your new projects, using different ways of working.

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John Boyes07:06:03

This is a decent intro article to the concept: https://www.bmc.com/blogs/bimodal-it/

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Hannah Beech07:06:45

24 months?! oh wow, ow. that's... 😱

Hannah Beech07:06:45

24 months?! oh wow, ow. that's... 😱

Giulio Vian07:06:52

fast, that's fast

Marcello Marrocos07:06:49

That's interesting to see how narrow the "X" is.

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Marcello Marrocos07:06:49

That's interesting to see how narrow the "X" is.

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:05

This is about acceptance, and it took a shift in the leadership of our Technology org, to achieve this

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Akis Sklavounakis07:06:57

@coclav.public Happy to help 🙂

inactive07:06:00

…well, when you’re moving at 12 knots, you can understand why…

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Vlad Ukis07:06:40

do you mean slower is not delivering at all? 🙂

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:08

just change the scope and the budget of the project directly before the deadline, that's how you deliver 100% projects in scope and budget 😂

Vlad Ukis07:06:08

LOL again 🙂

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:01

The sad truth is, I've seen this been done before ... And it got them through all reporting requirements of the PMO....

Marcello Marrocos07:06:56

I'm just imagining the "X" for the disruption of working from home if we put on the same 2 years scale.

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Macca07:06:53

its the new normal? 😁

inactive07:06:08

Delightful: at Maersk, saw the benefit of working like a startup, to bring new capabilities to market!

Peter Fassbinder07:06:40

Great slide on the acceptance of DevOps, can be used to trigger discussions in an organization where you REALLY stand

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Andy Sturrock07:06:27

Martin Fowler called it bi-polar IT. Not very politically correct or inclusive but his article is good. https://martinfowler.com/bliki/BimodalIT.html

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)07:06:20

@rasmus.hald two days generating sticky notes. that seems like a lot of sticky notes.

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)07:06:20

@rasmus.hald two days generating sticky notes. that seems like a lot of sticky notes.

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:08

Wall after wall of stickies 😄

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations07:06:52

What kind of preparation did you do prior to the retrospective so that people would feel ready and able to contribute @rasmus.hald?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations07:06:52

What kind of preparation did you do prior to the retrospective so that people would feel ready and able to contribute @rasmus.hald?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:16

Good question! As this was a very opinionated topic, we had to have a hard focus on what was the aboslute minimal central IT involvement in DevOps based deliveries, and that helped us identif who needed to be part of the conversations

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:52

since then we broaden it out, but here a couple of years later, we are not done and most likely will never be done 🙂

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations07:06:50

And for those people who were selected for the initial conversation, did you have any concerns that people might not speak up and share their concerns? And if so, how did you address those concerns, to make it more likely people would be open to sharing?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations07:06:17

I ask because I often see people shy away from sharing their concerns, especially in the first retrospective for a given group.

inactive07:06:58

“we’re not a startup. 80K employees, largest container logistics company in the world” “aligned autonomy; every dev team wants autonomy, wants to set direction of their own products”

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech07:06:59

@jeff.gallimore that one is “less than most banks”😂

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech07:06:59

@jeff.gallimore that one is “less than most banks”😂

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inactive07:06:48

…it takes 2 days to get approvals to get the key to the storage cabinet where the Post-It notes are…

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Macca07:06:49

surely they just use a SAFE, to store their post-it notes? Sorry couldn't resist.. its hot in London.. 😜

Jeremy McGee07:06:10

"aligned autonomy" is an interesting and useful phrase

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Jeremy McGee07:06:10

"aligned autonomy" is an interesting and useful phrase

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Jeremy McGee07:06:41

our CEO at Nationwide describes "accountable freedom" which is ... similar?

Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect07:06:41

"Pissed because not being considered" - gold

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Akis Sklavounakis07:06:14

@rohrersm You'd be surprised on how many orgs are still at the basic stage of digital transformation and need bimodal to kickstart it. No panacea, but a good way to start.

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Akis Sklavounakis07:06:14

@rohrersm You'd be surprised on how many orgs are still at the basic stage of digital transformation and need bimodal to kickstart it. No panacea, but a good way to start.

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Tom Ayerst07:06:14

Often depends on motivations, both can be used as enablers or derailing strategies by “The Empire”

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Akis Sklavounakis07:06:59

Doing Agile vs Being Agile

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Tom Ayerst07:06:16

heard an IT boss literally saying “we’ll say we are bimodel and give them a sandbox they can play in. That will shut them up while we do the real work”

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Jeremy McGee07:06:55

@U015F0NQLDV how did that end up?

Tom Ayerst07:06:20

The org still exists, I’m not there but I believe they have a massive shadow IT “problem”.

inactive07:06:27

“we want to build hundreds of products, and leverage our scale”

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)07:06:04

“hospice mode”!!!

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inactive07:06:14

“hospice mode applications.” OMG. “keep it alive until we an either… umm… move it to a SaaS… or host it in a different way.” 😆😆😆😆

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inactive07:06:14

“hospice mode applications.” OMG. “keep it alive until we an either… umm… move it to a SaaS… or host it in a different way.” 😆😆😆😆

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG07:06:26

Or take it to the parking lot with a sledgehammer...

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inactive07:06:51

“versus UDM DevOps: we give them a bag of money, and they just go.”

Jason Cox - Disney07:06:04

I’m so using that… 🙂

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Jason Cox - Disney07:06:04

I’m so using that… 🙂

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inactive07:06:31

So good seeing you!!!! Your BFFs from Adidas were great!!! 🙂

inactive07:06:11

a new offering from your team, Jason: hospice for your applications to be lovingly taken care of until… well, you know…

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech07:06:04

ohhhhh l love this! What about hospice departments? Such as HR:face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:24

operations support being separate looks a bit like googles SRE stuff 🙂

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:24

operations support being separate looks a bit like googles SRE stuff 🙂

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:42

We are experimenting with this thinking and will kick off the SRE for UDM CD this year…. Going to be an interesting learning

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:04

Yeah I've been doing a lot of thinking around this lately, it's such an interesting field and problem, since if you can take away the pressure of actually operating it helps the development teams environment to be more chilled but at the same time they move out of touch with their delivery

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx07:06:41

Dave Farley might think that Continuous Delivery should be the same as the DevOps line 😀

Wolfgang Lucny07:06:08

Great presentation by @rasmus.hald - showing how to integrate operations and development in the practice in a large enterprise. Love to see taking the best from both worlds - aka EnterpriseDevOps

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili07:06:10

@rasmus.hald Do services graduate to needing an SLA too? I believe they should but seems to be a challenge to postpone in many places.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili07:06:10

@rasmus.hald Do services graduate to needing an SLA too? I believe they should but seems to be a challenge to postpone in many places.

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:23

So far we have dodge any transitions to Classic Delivery and I am working on solidifying it in the next update to the model… We should not be spending effort on putting any software in hospice mode

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:42

I don't think "graduating to hospice" is a feasible thing. So, I take it that the UDM is work in progress and needs maturing to an equal level as classic in terms of SLA requirements and such. Correct?

inactive07:06:55

“as an enterprise, we must figure out how to leverage our strengths, otherwise we will be dominated in the market by our startups competitors.”

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Ciaran Byrne07:06:57

@rasmus.hald - do you still have to do in the UDM DevOps case all of the things you did in the UDM Classic view? Is this 'streamlining' mainly a case of tearing down boundaries between siloes?

Ciaran Byrne07:06:57

@rasmus.hald - do you still have to do in the UDM DevOps case all of the things you did in the UDM Classic view? Is this 'streamlining' mainly a case of tearing down boundaries between siloes?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK07:06:03

Nope, in UDM devops your path to going live is (or at least should be) full speed without handovers

inactive07:06:36

Fascinating take on ITIL: “service desk to handle huge # of users, where feedback doesn’t need to get back to engineering, that’s a valuable capability”

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René Lippert07:06:09

@rasmus.hald How many people you have in your shared self-service teams?

René Lippert07:06:09

@rasmus.hald How many people you have in your shared self-service teams?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:37

hundreds… but they primarily look after classic services in most cases For IaC, DevTools and Cloud Management, the focus is on Dev Productivity and entertains about 50 engineers

Peter Fassbinder07:06:26

Fully agree with your diverse view on what you need; we often use the phrase "DevOps in an industrial environment needs (in most cases) more than a DevOps team"

Ciaran Byrne07:06:28

(^^thinking about a comment in Mark Schwarz' talk yesterday - Devops is a still a bureaucracy, but one that sees to be an enabling bureaucracy)

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG07:06:56

@rasmus.hald The enterprise capabilities you mention are often undervalued by startups or corporate divisions that act like startups. Use them!!

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG07:06:56

@rasmus.hald The enterprise capabilities you mention are often undervalued by startups or corporate divisions that act like startups. Use them!!

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Peter Fassbinder07:06:34

Combine the best of both worlds!

Jeroen Boks07:06:01

How large are these product teams?

Jeroen Boks07:06:01

How large are these product teams?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:15

The business product teams?

Jeroen Boks08:06:33

Yes, I'm watching with some colleagues, great stuff! We were wondering what size works for you to get a decent coverage of each domain. And to get an idea of the scale at Maersk, so we could make a comparison to our situtation

Jeroen Boks08:06:44

Btw, thank you for these insights!

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)07:06:19

Oh I've done and seen that powerpoint multiple times ...

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations07:06:24

“we had a really nice power point” < 😆

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inactive07:06:34

“at Maersk, we had a really nice PowerPoint slide, describing how we DevOps. [laughs]. All the directors and senior directors said ‘yes’, but it was just a PowerPoint slide. We had to figure out how to operationalize it.” 😆

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Karl Marfitt07:06:02

Ah yes, a very grounded approach 😄

Karl Marfitt07:06:02

Ah yes, a very grounded approach 😄

inactive07:06:28

Ah! Took me a little while. The wire to ground is just going into a bag of dirt. Haha

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:17

It´s from a real vessel 😄

Yannick Muller07:06:13

@rasmus.hald For the Cloud management team, what's balance between supporting feature teams & platform evolution ?

Yannick Muller07:06:13

@rasmus.hald For the Cloud management team, what's balance between supporting feature teams & platform evolution ?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:43

The engineers in these teams are empowered to balance this… We often look at repeating waste … So tasks that happens again and again

Tom Ayerst07:06:48

VSM FTW! 😄

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike07:06:13

Which books @rasmus.hald?

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Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike07:06:13

Which books @rasmus.hald?

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:38

Value Stream Mapping by Karen Martin, Mike Osterling

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Yannick Muller07:06:45

@rasmus.hald: When teams are using VSM : for a new project or anytime in the construction process ?

Yannick Muller07:06:45

@rasmus.hald: When teams are using VSM : for a new project or anytime in the construction process ?

Yannick Muller08:06:55

Do you have a enabling team to help feature teams in the process ?

Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his08:06:07

Yes! Macro-level. Single-system thinking. Start with the parents and children, not the great-grandchildren.

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:19

Macro steps, with stakeholders

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Peter Fassbinder08:06:25

@rasmus.hald what are your current fastest delivery cycle times for the UDM DevOps variant and for what type of products?

Peter Fassbinder08:06:25

@rasmus.hald what are your current fastest delivery cycle times for the UDM DevOps variant and for what type of products?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:21

IMO it still takes too long, but we are learning like crazy. We can do weeks if engineers knows what to do, but the reality is that it still takes months

inactive08:06:28

VSM: 2 day workshop

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)08:06:40

talk to stakeholders in a level they are familiar with, that's a good learning here I think

Simon Williams08:06:24

Congrats on getting it down to weeks @rasmus.hald 😄

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:31

24m Lead Time 🙂 to 2 weeks 💥

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Colin Claverie08:06:20

i love the word “beacon”

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Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his08:06:22

Don't conflate VS Mapping with VS Management

Davy Kenis08:06:29

VSM’s are great! The more we do it the better we become at it, I do recommend to revisit a VSM each every x months. Just to learn and find new improvements in the organizatoin

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Davy Kenis08:06:29

VSM’s are great! The more we do it the better we become at it, I do recommend to revisit a VSM each every x months. Just to learn and find new improvements in the organizatoin

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:09

It´s one of the most valuable tool we have…. It´s also really good for removing silo thinking and driving engagement

Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his08:06:34

need both - separate endeavors

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)08:06:01

Beacons ~= fitness functions ; at least a subset - evolutionary architecture is everywhere

inactive08:06:07

Beacons! “like a lighthouse which guides the vessel through the sea.” (I love all the wonderful ways people use the existing enterprise heritage to create metaphors that are understood by all)

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inactive08:06:07

Beacons! “like a lighthouse which guides the vessel through the sea.” (I love all the wonderful ways people use the existing enterprise heritage to create metaphors that are understood by all)

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)08:06:02

i’m sure this helps with change management and adoption

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:42

True! I really works

inactive08:06:41

Admiral: dashboard overseeing the beacons

Stephen Magill [MuseDev]08:06:55

Love the “Assurance Framework”! I’ll be talking more about devops and continuous assurance this afternoon. So cool to see these ideas popping up independently across the community here. I really think there’s a trend here!

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG08:06:57

@rasmus.hald I love the idea of Beacons and self service!! We do very similar...

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Ciaran Byrne08:06:13

Beacons - Love it!

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inactive08:06:27

“…one beacon shows that this application is cost aware…“. 😆😆😆. I’m sure there’s a story behind that. 😆

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inactive08:06:27

“…one beacon shows that this application is cost aware…“. 😆😆😆. I’m sure there’s a story behind that. 😆

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Alex van Assem08:06:34

So you can go to production when a Beacon is on a red state?

Alex van Assem08:06:34

So you can go to production when a Beacon is on a red state?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:21

Yes, this is about highlighting risk, not to stop the flow of value

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG08:06:01

@rasmus.hald We also have beacons in Git for terraform and chef standards.

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:15

Engineering…. 😄

Alistair Doran08:06:22

Excellent session, in my top 5 of the summit!! Will be using a lot of what you have talked about.

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Alistair Doran08:06:22

Excellent session, in my top 5 of the summit!! Will be using a lot of what you have talked about.

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:47

Thanks a million Alistair! 😄

Philip Day08:06:23

How are Beacons used in practice?

Philip Day08:06:23

How are Beacons used in practice?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:46

They are visual indicators of how well guardrails are followed in individual product teams. They are targeted Product Owners that should use them to drive risk down

Philip Day08:06:30

Thanks... is there a 'shift left' thing, or parallelisation going on here? Are they evaluated continually as delivery work progresses?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:27

Yes, we use Value Stream Mapping to improve the process and Admiral helps us remove waste (automation) Shift left= Yes 🙂

inactive08:06:33

24 months -> 18 months -> weeks

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Yannick Muller08:06:12

@rasmus.hald Can you explain how did you create this beacon portal ? How much is automated behind that ?

Yannick Muller08:06:12

@rasmus.hald Can you explain how did you create this beacon portal ? How much is automated behind that ?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:50

We have the pleasure of being 100% cloud focussed, and therefore we can query the cloud platform for a lot of metrics. Today the beacons are 100% automated, but our challenge is that we are seeing an extreme interest in building more beacons, and also for stuff that we can´t automate… Not sure how we fix that yet, but we have designed a back-end where we can do manual checks

Yannick Muller08:06:35

So every project or product are hosted in the cloud ? If yes how do you allow classic project to get some beacons ?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:11

Not yet, but we are seeing more and more ask to do so….. We are seeing this as an opportunity to start maturing the Classic delivery process. For now this is in our future

Vlad Ukis08:06:18

Was the tool with the beacons developed in house?

Vlad Ukis08:06:18

Was the tool with the beacons developed in house?

Vlad Ukis08:06:01

@rasmus.hald if so, how many people are on it?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:42

Yes, we have it as part of our Admiral platform and the beacons entertain about 1 FTE but split out over more folks… Going forward we are pushing the development of the beacons to the capability owners So the owner of DevTools will develop her own beacon if relevant But it super simple if you are using cloud services

Yannick Muller08:06:20

Did you consider opensource this tool ?

Yannick Muller08:06:49

Admiral platform it's an internal solution right ?

Vlad Ukis08:06:08

And how many people are on the Admiral platform overall?

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:25

We have considered open sourcing the Admiral Platform (and even been looking for something similar we could use and contribute to) and we still see it in our future

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:47

Regarding team size, we currently run two feature teams (10 people in all) and they cover the Admiral platform, UDM beacons, IaC (terraform), cost management and Identity services

inactive08:06:41

“everyone wants a Beacon! everyone who wants to add value to the dev process wants a beacon!” (That’s awesome)

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:52

Why isn’t @rasmus.hald the new CIO? :thinking_face:

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Simon Williams08:06:05

@rasmus.hald great presentation - super clear and well put together! Thank you 🙂

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Simon Williams08:06:05

@rasmus.hald great presentation - super clear and well put together! Thank you 🙂

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:39

Thank you, much appreciated:heart:

Simon Williams08:06:55

Appreciate the work that probably went into it! 😄

René Lippert08:06:07

What is your job? I am a beackon bilder :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Ciaran Byrne08:06:20

Thank you @rasmus.hald 👏👏

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inactive08:06:25

Thank you, @rasmus.hald!!!

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Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his08:06:29

thank you @rasmus.hald 👏

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JD Myers - Business Application Analyst08:06:34

Thank you, @rasmus.hald!!!

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Karl Marfitt08:06:34

@rasmus.hald brilliant presentation thankyou so much for sharing 👏

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Karl Marfitt08:06:34

@rasmus.hald brilliant presentation thankyou so much for sharing 👏

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:08

Thank you Karl! :)

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aycan tekerek08:06:37

Nice presentation

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Marcello Marrocos08:06:40

Great case, thanks for sharing @rasmus.hald

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Edu Escartí08:06:44

A lot of super helpful takeaways! Thanks @rasmus.hald

Edu Escartí08:06:44

A lot of super helpful takeaways! Thanks @rasmus.hald

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:48

Thank you Edu! 🙂

Matthew Joyner08:06:47

Thanks @rasmus.hald!! 👏

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Matt McKee08:06:48

Great talk @rasmus.hald loved it

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inactive08:06:51

Up next: @jonathansmart1 Smart!

jmed08:06:51

What an interesting presentation @rasmus.hald !!

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René Lippert08:06:52

@rasmus.hald Thanks a lot very nice talk.

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Robert08:06:53

@rasmus.hald Thank you for the very structured and inspiring presentation 👏

Robert08:06:53

@rasmus.hald Thank you for the very structured and inspiring presentation 👏

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:46

Thanks Robert, really appreciate it :)

Thomas Williams08:06:53

@rasmus.hald 👏

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Tom Coudyzer08:06:54

@rasmus.hald 👋

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Chris08:06:56

Thank you @rasmus.hald for the great talk!

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Michael Kalbermatter08:06:03

What a great talk! Thx so much! 😊

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Martin Huter08:06:06

I really love this stories, but all of those DevOps transition that worked sound like you need to build most of it by yourself - Which requires some kind of scale that it is worth. Or am I missing something? Thanks for the great talk. @rasmus.hald

Martin Huter08:06:06

I really love this stories, but all of those DevOps transition that worked sound like you need to build most of it by yourself - Which requires some kind of scale that it is worth. Or am I missing something? Thanks for the great talk. @rasmus.hald

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:48

Your not wrong. As an enterprise, we had a culture, process and thinking that were VERY functional and siloed… DevOps transitions in our case is about changing all of this with DevOps and LEAN thinking

Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:01

btw, excellent question 🙂

Siva Sethu08:06:10

@rasmus.hald Great presentation. It helped to clear few things on how to drive DevOps adoption while still catering to Applications that needs to be developed and supported in a traditional ITIL way

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:11

Good morning, afternoon, evening global DevOps Enterprise Community! From US West Coast to New Zealand (anyone in Hawaii or the South Pacific Islands?)

Yannick Muller08:06:15

thanks @rasmus.hald amazing prez

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:18

@rasmus.hald Does a new CIO always have to create a new operating model? Could there be one that is happy with making small impactful changes?

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:18

@rasmus.hald Does a new CIO always have to create a new operating model? Could there be one that is happy with making small impactful changes?

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK08:06:59

LOL, not sure, still to be seen 🙂

Johan Tegler08:06:22

Really good presentation @rasmus.hald would be nice to see more!

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)08:06:42

Thank you @rasmus.hald!! Welcome @jonathansmart1

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sarathkanduri08:06:57

@rasmus.hald Great talk, I really like the idea of having three different delivery models

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inactive08:06:23

…those are @jonathansmart1’s book reviews? 😆 😆 😆

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Macca08:06:41

Joined BP the day of the Spill...

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Marcello Marrocos08:06:59

What an impactful way to start the talk!

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Olivier Jacques, DXC08:06:11

You have all my attention !

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Thomas Williams08:06:11

Excited for this talk!

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG08:06:42

Oh yes!! @jonathansmart1 Leadership Behavior!! So vital!!

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:35

For those who saw the Virgin Atlantic talk on Tuesday, you may recognise the photo top left 😉

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inactive08:06:56

Virgin Atlantic: what an awesome presentation!!!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:36

Love that we need plaques “the work is fundamentally unknowable”

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)08:06:50

“The work is fundamentally unknowable”. This was part of the discussion during @david627’s talk yesterday, too.

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inactive08:06:51

“100 years ago, in Detroit Ford factory, over 50 languages were spoken; it didn’t matter, because people didn’t need to talk to each other” <--- one of my fave quotes in his book.

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Nic Whittaker08:06:57

"resistance" - check

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)08:06:32

@jonathansmart1 no “best practice”!!! yes!

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)08:06:40

all work is context-dependent

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:43

What will give you turbulence? 😄

Nic Whittaker08:06:44

"org culture at odds" - in my world it's sub-cultures that were at odds

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:56

What will give you laminar flow?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:56

What will give you laminar flow?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:19

Expanding from headwind and tailwind a bit. Something every triathlete will learn about when getting diminishing returns in the wind tunnel on their bikes 😄

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)08:06:04

Leading by example is so powerful it's funny that people think they can mandate things they don't do themselves 😂

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations08:06:34

“Do as I say, not as I do” < so often when people say they want cultural change what they mean is they want other people to behave differently.

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inactive08:06:05

@tommy I mentioned to @jonathansmart1 how his entymology is part of the Clojure tradition, too!

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:12

Language is always important

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Jason Cox - Disney08:06:24

lead = “to guide on a journey”

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Karl Marfitt08:06:34

I like the origins of the word kubernetes too 🙂

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations08:06:51

Nice contrast of Commander vs Leader!

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)08:06:13

This brings up Simon Sinek again in my mind - many overlapping points :thinking_face:

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Nic Whittaker08:06:25

"command, commit, order" - no no no, be in the same position as everyone else "listens, informs" - love it @jonathansmart1

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:41

Yes @akis.sklavounakis but crystal clarity with simple and plain language doesn’t sell fancy decks

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inactive08:06:06

…in awe of @jonathansmart1’s Slack kung fu.

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Johan Tegler08:06:37

Very good presentation @jonathansmart1 with commander vs leader. Will you describe manger as well?

Nic Whittaker08:06:43

@genek101 he's spliced directly into the Matrix

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Marcello Marrocos08:06:43

"Agile, Lean and DevOps are means to the end"

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Marcello Marrocos08:06:43

"Agile, Lean and DevOps are means to the end"

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Marcello Marrocos08:06:09

That's powerful. Many times companies want to be Agile and implement DevOps for the sake of the wave, not for their objectives.

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG08:06:44

@jonathansmart1 Turns out that DevOps starts with Transformational Leadership. See @nicolefv work in Accelerate and https://www.devops-research.com/research.html

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG08:06:44

@jonathansmart1 Turns out that DevOps starts with Transformational Leadership. See @nicolefv work in Accelerate and https://www.devops-research.com/research.html

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Olivier Jacques, DXC08:06:14

I so much miss @nicolefv wisdom and energy in this DOES.

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]10:06:25

Thanks @scott.prugh. In chapter 4 of Sooner Safer Happier (of which this was a talk version of the chapter), I reference Transformational Leadership, Servant Leadership, Intent Based Leadership (David Marquet) and the SODR 2017 correlation to performance 👍

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)08:06:59

A leader doesn't need hierarchy to execute stuff with his followers, a commander needs it to get anything done ...

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK08:06:20

@jonathansmart1 - such a powerful talk (again!) - laughing and crying in the same breaths!!

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Macca08:06:36

that was a fantastic article @jonathansmart1 shared with a few CEOs... to great effect.. thank you!

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Kurt A08:06:40

@genek101 have you ever gotten Keith Ferrazzi to talk at DOES? Leading Without Authority is a really good book and lines up with transformational leadership at all levels

Kurt A08:06:40

@genek101 have you ever gotten Keith Ferrazzi to talk at DOES? Leading Without Authority is a really good book and lines up with transformational leadership at all levels

inactive08:06:08

No! Adding to list! Thank you!!!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:40

@scott.prugh how every diagram starts with “culture of psychological safety” in Accelerate did more for devs lives than the 5-6 books and tens of studies before it @nicolefv is TEH awesome

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Luke Rettig (Sr Director Product Management - Target)08:06:56

the beatings will stop once moral improves

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Chris Swan08:06:02

This is so on point - commanders saying 'I want change, but I don't want to change'

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Chris Swan08:06:02

This is so on point - commanders saying 'I want change, but I don't want to change'

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations08:06:10

In my experience this isn’t limited to commanders, it is common across people of all levels & titles.

inactive08:06:33

My second fave quote in @jonathansmart1 book:

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:03

Don't forget though:

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Thomas Williams08:06:10

Amen, "the level of consciousness sof an organization cannot exceed thte level of consciousness of its leader."...

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Thomas Williams08:06:10

Amen, "the level of consciousness sof an organization cannot exceed thte level of consciousness of its leader."...

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:46

I'd say that the de facto leader. The puppet on top can be unconscious but that is not leading.

Yannick Muller08:06:25

Frederic Laloux's book is super amazing.

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jmed08:06:37

Before antipatterns,,,I’ve found this at a couple of talks or articles .... Lean, Agile, DevOps exhibited as goals and not as “means to Better, Sooner, Safer, Happier “... this is a quite precise statement.

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inactive08:06:42

Hats off to @jonathansmart1 getting these Boeing testimony in time for his book!

inactive08:06:42

Hats off to @jonathansmart1 getting these Boeing testimony in time for his book!

Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:07

The advantage of missing my 'deadline' 🙂

😂 4
Tim Dempsey08:06:14

People like conforming as well - it's liberating, you can just let go....

Karl Marfitt08:06:19

"You're DevOps so go on and prove to me it'll work!" (with zero support, trust or budget and dev/ops/other silos very much intact!)

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Karl Marfitt08:06:19

"You're DevOps so go on and prove to me it'll work!" (with zero support, trust or budget and dev/ops/other silos very much intact!)

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Marcello Marrocos08:06:06

And cheering to go wrong, so I was right!

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Karl Marfitt08:06:07

Oh yeah, "... and the last idiot who tried to 'do DevOps' failed too..." 😞

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Tom Ayerst08:06:43

This is also an important take on commander behaviour. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004IK899W/

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Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his08:06:59

Anti-pattern 3 - Deterministic Mindset - aka where's my DevOps roadmap?!

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Jiří Klouda08:06:15

LOVE “No one expects the Agile Impostion!”

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1
Duncan Lawie08:06:16

I wasn't expecting that!

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)08:06:16

@jonathansmart1 i’m a big fan of your “think big, start big, learn slow” versus “think big, start small, learn fast” framing

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Marcus Davage08:06:16

LOL. I met Michael Palin as few years ago. Lovely chap!

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jmed08:06:25

Cost & schedule at the expense of safety.... well, in previous projects I’ve experienced this pressure perhaps not in safety, but affecting Quality.

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jmed08:06:25

Cost & schedule at the expense of safety.... well, in previous projects I’ve experienced this pressure perhaps not in safety, but affecting Quality.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:21

Hm. I think quality is on the DMZ before losing safety.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:57

So if you have some quality, you can take some adversity by compromising.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:14

When every bug is an immediate outage, "off with the head" is imminent

inactive08:06:28

Agile Imposition; Scrumdamentalist; 😆

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:52

Our one weapon is fear and surprise! Our two weapons are fear and surprise and a devotion to Agile!

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:52

Our one weapon is fear and surprise! Our two weapons are fear and surprise and a devotion to Agile!

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Michael Kutik - SAP SE08:06:36

I believe the cause for deterministic mindset and relying on fear and surprise often is fear itself

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Davy Kenis08:06:01

I’m wondering, who ever noticed doing some of the antipatterns in their carreer? I’m guilty as charge! Only by realizing I was guilty I was able to learn and improve myself!

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inactive08:06:49

I loved the @james839 confession in the Swiss Re presentation that he might have brought the Scrumdamentalist mindset, because of his fear that the larger org would screw up their nascent initiative.

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Duncan Lawie08:06:04

Not me. Just everyone around me :thinking_face:

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)08:06:05

We need more memes during the conference 😂

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inactive08:06:06

“how can I help you?”

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2
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inactive08:06:06

“how can I help you?”

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:04

But exhibiting vulnerability is not how you get promoted in most orgs...

Erik Willems08:06:09

The difference between leaders and managers: If you lead men to their death, you might get a medal. If you manage people to their death you (should) go to jail. You lead people, you manage spreadsheets. Nothing wrong with managing, but it hasn't anything to do with people.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:16

Just as leaders read the Projects they NEED to read Brene Brown for “balls empowerment”

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:33

Any examples of servant leaders who got promoted because of their servant leadership?

Akis Sklavounakis08:06:33

Any examples of servant leaders who got promoted because of their servant leadership?

inactive08:06:40

I’ll get back to you on this one — this deserves some good answers! cc @jonathansmart1

Akis Sklavounakis08:06:25

👍 We need the good examples, what good or great looks like!

inactive08:06:36

cc @jeff.gallimore @UKC011E8Y At the core of the Toyota Production System is enabling problem solving at all levels… which is a little different than classic definition of servant leadership…

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Steve Spear11:06:19

@akis.sklavounakis @genek101 In terms of the leadership model, let me suggest the examples in chapter 9. Quite a bit of what you’re asking about. Steve

Steve Spear11:06:55

@akis.sklavounakis @genek101 A few more things to suggest. “Leaders” by Stan McCrystal https://mitocr.cmail19.com/t/t-l-ptlyudd-furirltuj-h/ “Leadership and Seeking Bad News” https://mitocr.cmail19.com/t/t-l-ptlyudd-furirltuj-h/ An appreciation of the life of Alcoa CEO and Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill https://mitocr.cmail19.com/t/t-l-ptlyudd-furirltuj-h/

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Duncan Lawie08:06:51

Interesting tension between "leaders go first" and "let others speak".

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Duncan Lawie08:06:51

Interesting tension between "leaders go first" and "let others speak".

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Chris Swan08:06:29

you can go first by doing, without saying a word

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Kurt A08:06:32

demonstrating vs. directing

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Tom Ayerst08:06:48

Can you have psychological safety across an outsourcing boundary?

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Tom Ayerst08:06:48

Can you have psychological safety across an outsourcing boundary?

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:36

You can if you think of it in the group it belongs in - the team not the org

Joachim08:06:43

It is possible, if you build trust and the contractual model is not too restrictive. A few teams and I managed it ... in 15 years, :)

Tom Ayerst08:06:35

I have to see I have only seen it for individual contractors/consultants

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:49

I have told my customer: "As a consultant, I have to be fired twice to be unemployed. I can be twice as honest."

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:57

We are really setting ourselves up for failure thinking of PS at the level of culture - it’s a distributed bubble level ever changing lever

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:01

when it comes to PS the organisation is as real of a thing as Santa

Joachim08:06:54

For me decoupling the vendor teams from the vendor hierarchy and protecting them internally in my org helped to create a collaborative, trusting environment ... still this took around 6-8 months. Not possible for short engagements.

Tom Ayerst08:06:33

Would be interesting to see if the Vendor Org saw them as “going native”

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:46

Companies with a lot of contractors mixed into the teams, they will be more likely to provide safety over company boundaries.

Joachim08:06:11

Maybe, but we persisted and that model lived on for a few years.

Joachim08:06:04

The Fearless Organization - on our new leadership book club list. Excellent case studies. ✔️

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Joachim08:06:04

The Fearless Organization - on our new leadership book club list. Excellent case studies. ✔️

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Paul Salmon08:06:22

VW and Wells Fargo cases stuck with me

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Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike08:06:16

Love the way how Google open-sourced their learnings on both technical/organisational and cultural topics. Kudo's to Google for that

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Kurt A08:06:23

In my neck of the woods, we refer to that as the 3 'S's: shoot, shovel, shut-up

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Kurt A08:06:23

In my neck of the woods, we refer to that as the 3 'S's: shoot, shovel, shut-up

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Kurt A08:06:44

burying the bad news (and the messenger)

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inactive08:06:28

So good seeing you again, Kurt!!!

Nic Whittaker08:06:32

"you don't fail an experiment" - that's how science works. At last!

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Nic Whittaker08:06:32

"you don't fail an experiment" - that's how science works. At last!

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)08:06:00

you can validate a hypothesis or invalidate a hypothesis — both are learnings and valuable.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:32

that diagram and @nicolefv’s diagrams in Accelerate change lives. When we’ll have an exact number to connect $ or at least Agile goodness to it to prove the exact value of PS to high performance we can reduce what l call “the human debt”

Davy Kenis08:06:56

Intelligent failure!!

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Jiří Klouda08:06:33

Please, don’t tell your direct reports that you will be their “Servant Leader”.

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Jiří Klouda08:06:33

Please, don’t tell your direct reports that you will be their “Servant Leader”.

1
Jiří Klouda08:06:20

I thought it does not need to be said, until I’ve met a manager that did that.

Craig Cook - IBM08:06:45

Celebrate intelligent failure through awards. I like that!

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:12

Kent Beck says they stopped using the word “fail” and replaced it with “learn”. Safe to fail experiments -> safe to learn experiments

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems08:06:32

Real "aha" moment over the last few days just how much of the stress and overwork is coming from fear. I dont think i ever would've said there was fear at my workplace before this, but now that I see it, its everywhere. I've been trying to address the symptoms not root cause.

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Thomas Williams08:06:34

I cannot wait to read your book @jonathansmart1. Thank you IT Rev for early access!

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Thomas Williams08:06:34

I cannot wait to read your book @jonathansmart1. Thank you IT Rev for early access!

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]09:06:09

The book publish date is October. Available for pre-order now on Amazon

Akis Sklavounakis08:06:51

@jiri.klouda It is more than words, it is about being a servant leader.

Akis Sklavounakis08:06:51

@jiri.klouda It is more than words, it is about being a servant leader.

Jiří Klouda08:06:30

Yes, it is about exhibiting behavior, not about the words. That is what I am saying.

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Bahram08:06:19

One of the best talks ever :thumbsup:

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations08:06:21

supporting lines < love it!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations08:06:21

supporting lines < love it!

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:15

He redraws the org chart with managers to the left rather than on top

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Chris Swan08:06:42

So much of this talk boils down to a management mindset based on the era of slavery (which I think we've all been learning more about in the past few weeks) - the idea that 'masters' own people

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Kurt A08:06:43

After this talk, @jonathansmart1’s galley (thanks ITRev booth) goes to the top of my 'to read' list...

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Ellie Taylor08:06:08

I lOVE that: supporting lines instead of reporting lines. And agree Coaching Kata is really helpful.

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Ellie Taylor08:06:08

I lOVE that: supporting lines instead of reporting lines. And agree Coaching Kata is really helpful.

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Matt Cobby (NAB)08:06:05

I think this is a new favourite line....

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG08:06:33

@jon Love Toyota Kata!! Improving daily work is more important than the work!!

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:50

https://mintzberg.org/books/managers-not-mbas is excellent on this - org chart left to right rather than top to bottom just to get the visual effect

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:04

Awesomeness as expected @jonathansmart1 :star-struck:🥳😍

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Pallavi Negi08:06:20

Great Talk 👏

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Brian Martin08:06:34

I worked in an organization that gave a 'goose of shame' to people or teams that broke things.

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Stijn Claes - Nike08:06:38

Thanks @jonathansmart1 great talk 👏

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Thomas Williams08:06:44

Awesome way to end that.

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Cristea Ghiță08:06:02

"leadership is how you leave people feeling" ❤️

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:03

@rohrersm Do you mean to re-seat 'management' to the same floor as the minions? Move them out of the top floor? Who would be crazy enough to suggest that?

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:03

@rohrersm Do you mean to re-seat 'management' to the same floor as the minions? Move them out of the top floor? Who would be crazy enough to suggest that?

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:05

Org charts represent physical floors in many orgs 🙂

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Davy Kenis08:06:12

I’ll share my own experiences @jonathansmart1!

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Kurt A08:06:24

"maintain optionality as long as possible" - painful contrast the the current annual planning that I'm wrestling through

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)08:06:31

Thank you @jonathansmart1!!!

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Simon Williams08:06:40

Well that was rather good! 😄. Thanks @jonathansmart1

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Simon Williams08:06:40

Well that was rather good! 😄. Thanks @jonathansmart1

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Kurt A08:06:08

competing for understatement of the morning?

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2
Cristea Ghiță08:06:43

awesome presentation! thanks @jonathansmart1 ❤️

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Jurgis Primagovas08:06:44

I love this , thank you @jonathansmart1!

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Karl Marfitt08:06:48

👏 super inspiring talk many thanks @jonathansmart1

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Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his08:06:50

thanks @jonathansmart1 👏

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Tom Ayerst08:06:51

Great talk @jonathansmart1 👏

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Thomas Williams08:06:53

Thank you, @jonathansmart1! Have learned so much from you already this week.

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)08:06:58

Welcome @tim and @paul from Coats!

Michael Kalbermatter08:06:59

The first time I’m hearing about BVSSH. Great! How inspiring! 😊

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Matthew Joyner08:06:00

Thanks @jonathansmart1 - Awesome talk !! 👏

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inactive08:06:03

To amplify @jonathansmart1’s request for help: I’d love great examples of these principles being applied at senior business leadership level, maybe even independent of technology leadership — would make for a great future DevOps Enterprise talk! Thank you @jonathansmart1!!!

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inactive08:06:03

To amplify @jonathansmart1’s request for help: I’d love great examples of these principles being applied at senior business leadership level, maybe even independent of technology leadership — would make for a great future DevOps Enterprise talk! Thank you @jonathansmart1!!!

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Matt Cobby (NAB)08:06:32

Challenge accepted.

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Macca08:06:03

👋👋👋👋👋 great talk as always @jonathansmart1 !! now to bring the tone down... eh @tim @abraxas.software 🤪

👋 1
Marcus Davage08:06:05

Fab. Thank you @jonathansmart1. Inspiring.

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Yannick Muller08:06:12

Thanks @jonathansmart1, It was really interesting and inspiring.

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Conor Farrell08:06:13

Indeed 😅

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mohitraina08:06:13

Great talk 👏

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Pedro Alexandre08:06:15

Amazing @jonathansmart1 great talk!!

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Ciaran Byrne08:06:16

Thank you @jonathansmart1! Great talk - thoughtful and inspiring 👏👏

2
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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)08:06:21

That was so amazing @jonathansmart1 💯

🙏 1
Alistair Doran08:06:27

Best Keynote morning of the summit.......Thanks for so much inspiration!!!

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😊 1
Naren Yellavula08:06:44

Wonderful @jonathansmart1 . plain, crisp, and insightful! 💡

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inactive08:06:05

Hello, @paul @tim!!!!

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Simon08:06:13

Excellent use of "sources" to promote ideas @jonathansmart1!! Loved it... Great start to the day.

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Robert08:06:14

@jonathansmart1 Thank you for the great Talk 👏

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:47

@genek101 tens of those - both wins and the opposite - only a handful fit in my book so you’re welcome to the rest if we protect the innocent :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:47

@genek101 tens of those - both wins and the opposite - only a handful fit in my book so you’re welcome to the rest if we protect the innocent :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

inactive08:06:14

Oh, let’s add to our list of topics to talk about later today!!! Thank you!!!

Olivier Jacques, DXC08:06:56

pre-ordered! @jonathansmart1 - do we get to have WIP releases of "sooner safer happier"? (batch size of ONE) 😄

2
Olivier Jacques, DXC08:06:56

pre-ordered! @jonathansmart1 - do we get to have WIP releases of "sooner safer happier"? (batch size of ONE) 😄

2
Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:24

You can download a galley copy from this conference site

Tim Dempsey08:06:03

Full Hall & Oates lockdown hair from me

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Tim Dempsey08:06:34

Didn’t have enough time in this talk, but every time I have sorted out enterprise IT delivery to dropping code out at will/hourly, the business struggles to keep up. From being the bottleneck, IT is now a blank sheet of paper and the business finds it hard to fill it. Heard this a few times from others at forums now too…

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Tim Dempsey08:06:34

Didn’t have enough time in this talk, but every time I have sorted out enterprise IT delivery to dropping code out at will/hourly, the business struggles to keep up. From being the bottleneck, IT is now a blank sheet of paper and the business finds it hard to fill it. Heard this a few times from others at forums now too…

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Tom Ayerst08:06:21

and then they start making s**t up to “keep busy”?

Tom Ayerst08:06:05

over-optimising one part of a system…

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:30

@U015F0NQLDV Hmm. Maybe we need some criteria for what it takes to be a good requirement. :thinking_face:

Tim Dempsey08:06:52

My take is that this is a symptom of project thinking -with “traditional IT” deliverables are always “tomorrow, tomorrow, always a day away” so our internal customers haven’t engaged in the incremental changes they could make to the offer, aren’t thinking innovation, rather more status quo, just don’t yet understand the art of the possible. My takeaway - I need to grow Product skills alongside the DevOps transformation to provide maximum value. Need to get Innovation training going alongside…

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Tom Ayerst08:06:52

@U0166FMBJ8Z has a good take on this with the contractor-client minset in IT

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:54

My guess is @U015V2KV7U4 will have more to say on that this afternoon

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:00

☝️is one of my fave diagrams. Our business likes this a lot to show us what’s possible over the long term.

Tom Ayerst08:06:13

@U015V2KV7U4 is one smart person 🙂

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John Cutler10:06:04

Appreciate that @U015F0NQLDV. See ... now with 3hrs until my Q&A I am getting pulled in. I should sleep, and then be fresh for my "talk"

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Robert08:06:57

Agreed, great talk @jonathansmart1 many thanks. Do some talks (like this) go up on youtube later so I can share with some of my colleagues on a leadership development scheme?

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Robert08:06:57

Agreed, great talk @jonathansmart1 many thanks. Do some talks (like this) go up on youtube later so I can share with some of my colleagues on a leadership development scheme?

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:16

They will at a later date (cc: @genek101) The slides are downloadable from Dropbox and GitHub now

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inactive08:06:24

Yes — we’ll have something to announce in the next couple of weeks. All our efforts were focused on the conference. 🙂 Everything else marked for “later”. 🙂

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inactive08:06:59

Coats is such an amazing story. Born in late 1700s, was once the second largest company in the world!

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inactive08:06:10

Thomas Edison used Coats threads to make lightbulb!!!

Conor Farrell08:06:19

It is true in my experience also, the product/business side sometimes struggles to keep up

Macca08:06:18

fun fact, we have one app with over 1.8 million lines of code in it.. 17 years old.. monolith / pre history...

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Macca08:06:18

fun fact, we have one app with over 1.8 million lines of code in it.. 17 years old.. monolith / pre history...

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Conor Farrell08:06:16

It's also PHP, IIRC 😢

Joachim08:06:08

I once worked at a startup where 2-3 Java Developers managed to build a Java app with around 1 million lines of code in a surprisingly short amount of time ... it had to be rewritten rather soon. :)

Joachim08:06:35

It doesn't have to be pre-history. Constant vigilance!

Jonathan Evason08:06:59

I can't un see that REM album in the back ground.

Macca08:06:12

Classic..

Tim Dempsey08:06:14

Shiny Happy People on that one

Macca08:06:31

Had to hide all the edgy records 🙂

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:35

Wow, It's Adam Driver!

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1
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:35

Wow, It's Adam Driver!

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1
Bogdan Babalau-Maghiar08:06:15

@jonathansmart1 you had the best presentation in my opinion. Thank you! Can't wait to have your book in my hands.

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inactive08:06:56

The product team had to create these capabilities inside their organization, because those skills didn’t exist anywhere else in the org.

Craig Cook - IBM08:06:57

Design Thinking is a great practice.

inactive08:06:13

Minimal Lovable Product!

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❤️ 2
Simon Williams08:06:17

"minimal lovable product" ❤️

6
Macca08:06:20

Product managers do @genek101 but they design new thread products...

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John Willis08:06:30

Yikes.. It's 4:30 here...

Thomas Williams08:06:40

Love "minimal love-able product!"

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Macca08:06:43

many many hours debating the difference

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Macca08:06:59

MLP is the new normal 🙂

😂 3
Macca08:06:59

MLP is the new normal 🙂

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:46

I wish. This could be the a cure for MVPitis

Tim Dempsey08:06:09

It's got to be loved to get out the door, so you may as well accept that scope...

Macca09:06:36

So have I @rohrersm but not quite as long as @tim

1
John Willis08:06:05

Looking forward to the Dr Perez.

Tim Dempsey08:06:18

a deep rabbit hole - "digital products aren't products"

😂 1
Tim Dempsey08:06:18

a deep rabbit hole - "digital products aren't products"

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inactive08:06:54

@tim ^^ What was the most interesting argument that digital products weren’t indeed a real product?

Akis Sklavounakis08:06:06

At least manufacturing orgs get products, try explaining it to banks, government, etc...

Macca08:06:10

especially when they are creating LED threads

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:16

MLP is a cure for MVPitis, maybe?

Macca08:06:29

or telcos Akis 🙂

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Tim Dempsey08:06:32

Exaclty @ferrix

Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his08:06:36

Love "W'Agile" - sounds like Agilefall

Conor Farrell08:06:42

From my perspective the team Paul and Tim put together was one of the best group of engineers I've ever worked with (not just saying that because I was on it 😉)

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Macca08:06:43

Water Fall Agile

Thomas Williams08:06:54

Macroservices ftw

Macca08:06:59

You looking for a job Dr Farrell !!

Craig Cook - IBM08:06:11

Great to hear intentional hiring to create a gender balance on your team.

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Craig Cook - IBM08:06:11

Great to hear intentional hiring to create a gender balance on your team.

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Macca08:06:06

it was fantastic, we ran a series of hack offs with local unis and had an massive response...

❤️ 2
Matt Cobby (NAB)08:06:19

It's something that goes through every part of the hiring and working processes. From how you word jb adverts, interview techniques and daily working practices otherwise its all for nothing. Ultimately worth it and something I will always keep doing. Well done.

Macca09:06:58

thanks Matt, ultimately it drives a more productive team. I was fortunate enough to work with Rachel Higham who is the true pioneer in this space, well worth checking out some of Rachels talks if you get the chance https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/bt-rachel-higham-cloud-stem-5g

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:36

Thanks for that reference

inactive08:06:29

I loved the @victoria_mayo quote from Swiss Re presentation: “seeing an order get created online was amazing; finally understood how it was different than printing out a policy, and having one of our staff sign it.” ❤️ 😆

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Conor Farrell08:06:57

We did talk about it briefly, actually! I know and love Clojure, but from a maintainabilty/upskilling point of view for the SRE team Kotlin was a better fit

inactive08:06:13

Wow!!!! Hahaha

inactive08:06:06

PS: @tommy and I love Clojure, too!

Conor Farrell08:06:05

I was on the team that introduced Clojure at the BBC, it was a great fit for us as we did data streaming/transformation for programme data

Tim Dempsey08:06:53

Cheque in the post. Connor is awesome!

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Sebastian Dziewiatkowicz08:06:08

The contrast between leadership styles in your talk @jonathansmart1 remind me of a Safety I (command, control, compliance) and Safety II (guidance, facilitation). I have been wondering for some time what conditions make it more likely for majority of organisations to gravitate towards command, control and compliance (or to phrase it differently what makes it more often to emerge).

Sebastian Dziewiatkowicz08:06:08

The contrast between leadership styles in your talk @jonathansmart1 remind me of a Safety I (command, control, compliance) and Safety II (guidance, facilitation). I have been wondering for some time what conditions make it more likely for majority of organisations to gravitate towards command, control and compliance (or to phrase it differently what makes it more often to emerge).

Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:50

Yes. This talk is a talk version of Chapter 4 and Safety is Chapter 6

Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:09

We reference Safety II and Sidney Dekker in Chapter 6

Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]08:06:49

"what conditions make it more likely", in my experience it's the tone from the top

Sebastian Dziewiatkowicz08:06:04

I've been wondering beyond that. What makes those people at the top to behave in a commanding way. Or what makes commanders raise to the top more often where in VUCA world enablement, facilitation and distributed decision-making is more effective

Sebastian Dziewiatkowicz08:06:01

I should read the chapter 6 first I think

Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]09:06:47

In my experience, it's a belief thing. A People Belief. That people can be trusted or that people need to be commanded. An an Emergent Belief. That a Gantt Chart with milestones is needed to hold people's feet to the fire

Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]09:06:01

I've seen CXOs come and go at multiple firms and over the next 2 to 3 years their cultural norm tends to take over. Hire in their image. Reward 'good' behaviour. See Westrum Cultural Typology

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Sebastian Dziewiatkowicz09:06:06

There is a good and relatively short paper which Dekker coauthored which is meant to translate Safety II theory to practice https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0951832018309864

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Sebastian Dziewiatkowicz09:06:14

I have read it years ago and shared in my org

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Sebastian Dziewiatkowicz09:06:46

once I read your book I might drop you a line on the subject

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Akis Sklavounakis08:06:17

Engineering approach: Assemble a good team, give them a challenge, let them hypothesise, experiment, iterate.

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inactive08:06:25

^^ that was a fascinating observation — that many haven’t had that visceral aha moment of what digital products can do

Michael Wildman08:06:08

Macroservices 👀

Michael Wildman08:06:08

Macroservices 👀

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:50

Or team-sized-services per @UBE001UAX @ULTTZCP7S

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)08:06:14

Yes, eat your own dog food. Moving support away from developers has an immediate impact on quality. Not in the direction we want.

💯 4
Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG08:06:06

Microservices won’t save you!!

🙌 4
Macca08:06:24

yes we were told that would be edited out.. 😏

😂 4
Macca08:06:24

yes we were told that would be edited out.. 😏

😂 4
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)08:06:30

I think it's good to see that. Encourages everyone who's not talking.

Macca09:06:15

Thanks.. i think ....

Macca09:06:40

at least its a good cue to wake up for the next slide if your bored of the current 🙂

Macca08:06:09

previous devs had gone mad and built many many micro services which made it super complex.. so we simplied

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Macca08:06:09

previous devs had gone mad and built many many micro services which made it super complex.. so we simplied

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems08:06:02

@paul was there an warning signs that stood out that would show "these are the microservices that we need to simplify"

Macca09:06:55

for me Kafka.. is the warning sign, always seems to be plumbed in when you have a microservices mess

Macca08:06:17

and came up with macro services

💯 1
Karl Marfitt08:06:35

So beautiful to see the same little icons across all environments...

😁 1
Tim Dempsey08:06:52

Ha - I leanred the hard way on that discipline

Tim Dempsey08:06:03

Turtles all the way down please

2
Craig Cook - IBM08:06:23

Have you considered getting rid of dev and QA environments? i.e. test in production?

Craig Cook - IBM08:06:23

Have you considered getting rid of dev and QA environments? i.e. test in production?

Karl Marfitt08:06:21

Hang on we haven't figured out how to accept operations into dev and test properly yet 😉

Jonathan Evason09:06:46

We do just this, Dev and Prod. Dev is test and experimentation prod is live and in use.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)08:06:35

Yes, going from crawl to fly tends to end in crash.

Macca08:06:45

nope not when you can bring them up and down when you want 🙂

💯 2
inactive08:06:55

“92% of potential recruits wanted to join Coats” Awesome results of winning the war for talent!

👍 4
Macca08:06:20

in a Indian market where tech companies are king...

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:26

Revelation: It didn't go according to plan

😆 6
Macca08:06:34

why coats and not facebook

Tim Dempsey08:06:41

biting honesty

👏 1
Macca08:06:09

it never does.. remember at BP moving http://bp.com to AWS

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili08:06:15

"Reality yielded to our plan" -Nobody ever

😀 2
Giulio Vian08:06:20

not surprising, you need BOTH NoSQL and RDBMS

Steve Challis08:06:20

How do you control the overheads of managing the tool chain? Do you measure the effort?

Thomas Williams08:06:22

Not sure how you all did these duo recordings and integrated them into this system, but they're great. @patrick.debois256 @genek101

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Thomas Williams08:06:22

Not sure how you all did these duo recordings and integrated them into this system, but they're great. @patrick.debois256 @genek101

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inactive09:06:30

All credit goes to @patrick.debois256 for helping pick the technologies we used.

inactive09:06:04

All credit goes to @patrick.debois256 for helping pick the technologies we used. We did all recordings, including dual recordings like this, on StreamYard.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech08:06:23

It’s good! “I effed up” is the most underrated educational tool

Tim Dempsey08:06:27

skill is knowing you are going to have problems and make sure you leave an escape tunnel, right....

Macca08:06:32

engineered chaos monkies in never allowed to turn them on 😞 way too risky #2012

Jiří Klouda08:06:39

Going to NoSQL and returning back to RDBMS is very valuable. You shut down voices that constantly push you to NoSQL.

💯 2
Jiří Klouda08:06:39

Going to NoSQL and returning back to RDBMS is very valuable. You shut down voices that constantly push you to NoSQL.

💯 2
Conor Farrell08:06:33

The structure of the data was shaped by the products that had come before, so was heavily relational. NewSQL in the form of Cockroach was a good fit for us

👍 2
Tim Dempsey08:06:09

The macroservice approach made that possible - gRPC, Kong, great assets the team built out

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:21

There’s a great piece I’ll try and find that basically said the main motivation to use NoSQL is bureaucratic processes about changing your schema

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:21

There’s a great piece I’ll try and find that basically said the main motivation to use NoSQL is bureaucratic processes about changing your schema

Tim Dempsey09:06:11

I even said that at the time!!! haha

Macca08:06:32

gRPC was the unlocker of so many things

Tim Dempsey08:06:36

things were separated out so it was cool

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx08:06:37

And that if it’s easy to make schema updates then just stick with relational

Macca08:06:37

we ended up with Cockroach

inactive09:06:37

That VMware story is such a fascinating “middle management” pattern of behavior, referenced by @david627 — what middle managers can do and still claim that they’re 100% onboard, contributing to the mission.

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inactive09:06:37

That VMware story is such a fascinating “middle management” pattern of behavior, referenced by @david627 — what middle managers can do and still claim that they’re 100% onboard, contributing to the mission.

👍 3
Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems09:06:29

Its also scary to me that generally it comes from a completely genuine place. Makes me remember to show empathy and try to teach when I'm explaining problems.

👍 4
Karl Marfitt09:06:38

Cloud abuse, ouch that just resonated with me...

Thomas Williams09:06:48

That's terrifying, lol.

inactive09:06:09

PS: @paul — the only person who had a power outage during our recording session!

Kurt A09:06:31

listening to keynotes...you get the idea that "it's not that difficult to achieve greatness" sigh

Kurt A09:06:31

listening to keynotes...you get the idea that "it's not that difficult to achieve greatness" sigh

Tim Dempsey09:06:31

just the endless 12 hour days ;-)

Tim Dempsey09:06:16

here comes the formula...

Akis Sklavounakis09:06:57

History is written by the winners...

Akis Sklavounakis09:06:57

History is written by the winners...

Kurt A09:06:13

survivor bias FTW 🤯

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:40

I once saw someone demand that their 25 YO legacy be lifted to the cloud with no changes because their VP said so. In fact, if the request was refused, they would escalate to their VP. 🙂

😆 1
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:40

I once saw someone demand that their 25 YO legacy be lifted to the cloud with no changes because their VP said so. In fact, if the request was refused, they would escalate to their VP. 🙂

😆 1
Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:06:00

Through the use of an escalation form they could duplicate and file one would hope

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:01

Signed in triplicate. Sent in, sent back, and recycled into fire lighters.

Giulio Vian09:06:22

how much was relevant was the platform itself compared to the freedom of greenfield gave to the team ?

Giulio Vian09:06:22

how much was relevant was the platform itself compared to the freedom of greenfield gave to the team ?

Macca09:06:28

We had to justify the move to google to get a green field, key learning was let your teams chose their tools but ensure they meet the needs of the company... otherwise you end up will super cool tools but no alerts..

Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG09:06:28

@paul The pipeline capabilities allow you to pivot! Switch back to RDBMS is a good example. Don’t give away your pivot!!

Macca09:06:30

Ask yesterday.... can we build a risk based app to enable all our employees to manage / understand risk

👍 2
Macca09:06:30

Ask yesterday.... can we build a risk based app to enable all our employees to manage / understand risk

👍 2
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:38

I want to gate change on size.

Macca09:06:53

cost of change is small absolutely @scott.prugh

Karl Marfitt09:06:39

This so much, sustainability is sometimes more about 'invest to save' and often the returns on improvement investments are way beyond just financial...

1
Karl Marfitt09:06:39

This so much, sustainability is sometimes more about 'invest to save' and often the returns on improvement investments are way beyond just financial...

1
Macca09:06:59

and a constant theme you need to reinforce with C folk

👍 1
Jiří Klouda09:06:58

If what you build is known, you can trade quality, cost and time to build. But if you operate in unknown world, doing research and development, the time and cost are unknown and all you can control is quality. That is why you ned to increase quality in order to improve cost and time to deliver.

🤯 2
Giulio Vian09:06:42

or in other words, the new cloud platform was intrinsically better or the crucial factor is the change and freedom that it gave to the team?

Giulio Vian09:06:42

or in other words, the new cloud platform was intrinsically better or the crucial factor is the change and freedom that it gave to the team?

Macca09:06:11

in part try running K8 in azure / opposed to GKE.. allows more time to code, less time on fix

Giulio Vian09:06:49

oh yeah they have an edge on that

Giulio Vian09:06:39

another Q have you consider using static generators + API for an eCommerce site?

Macca09:06:23

yes and not possible, we have millions of product lines, we add 8000 new colour shades a month.. so off the shelf ecom could do it

Giulio Vian09:06:13

makes absolutely sense as always engineering solutions depend on problems never apply the solution you know until you are sure enough that is the proper problem

Giulio Vian09:06:01

thanks for clarifying very helpful

Akis Sklavounakis09:06:57

'What do you do???' Just to be able to ask the question is a testament to the change in most orgs...

👍 3
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😂 1
inactive09:06:41

“if you don’t know

John Willis09:06:48

cybernetics

👆 1
Kurt A09:06:37

Some really good systems modeling and discussions on @lethain (twitter) and blog at https://lethain.com/ - also consider An Elegant Puzzle

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Akis Sklavounakis09:06:50

Of course everyone knows that physicists are the best...

Macca09:06:17

if you want to know more...

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:15

These were mentioned at Software Circus and another name for a governor would be kubernetes 😄

Tom Coudyzer09:06:00

Love the diversity of the talks, look like we are on a road to the same destination but different roads are taken. The versatility make this world so exciting! 🛣️

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Macca09:06:50

@abraxas.software is with us if anyone wants to ask about the Maths... 🤪

Macca09:06:50

@abraxas.software is with us if anyone wants to ask about the Maths... 🤪

Conor Farrell09:06:56

:male-scientist: :female-scientist:

inactive09:06:55

“they lose patience, take away all the money, and we go away” 😭

Tom Coudyzer09:06:39

So many good books... besides the book will also need an additional book chest by the end of the conference 😂

Tim Dempsey09:06:36

"When are we transformed? TOO LATE" 😂

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:06:42

Love this but l’m doing a lot of impression management trying not to appear negative about the implied goodwill in some of those leadership team behaviour assumptions

Tim Dempsey09:06:55

We’ve already sold the film rights! The Success Calculus Starring  Christian Bale Jason Statham Timothy Spall Margot Robbie Miranda Hart Dir Guy Ritchie

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Tim Dempsey09:06:55

We’ve already sold the film rights! The Success Calculus Starring  Christian Bale Jason Statham Timothy Spall Margot Robbie Miranda Hart Dir Guy Ritchie

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Jonathan Evason09:06:33

Surely it's JSON Statham?

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Tim Dempsey17:06:16

That is best pun ever. Haha!

Jonathan Evason17:06:25

Can't take credit. Definitely saw it on Twitter!

Tim Dempsey17:06:50

#tweettheft is no crime

Sophie Weston09:06:08

For more on feedback loops, thoroughly recommend 'Thinking in Systems: A primer' by Donella Meadows. Amazing book, couldn't read it fast enough.

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John Willis09:06:45

@sophie.weston129 Great book.

inactive09:06:46

I think this is fascinating. Like the business language itself impedes desired outcomes. Note how strange and long Newton’s original 3 laws of motion were, trying to explain something that defined easy explanation, because words like “acceleration” didn’t exist yet.

inactive09:06:58

Thank you @tim @paul!!!!

Macca09:06:00

links everywhere..

Karl Marfitt09:06:41

Thanks, another brilliant presentation

Thomas Williams09:06:42

Great talk! @paul @tim

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inactive09:06:56

Hello, @mik — my co-conspirator on this panel, with Dr. Carlota Perez!!! A four year dream come true!!!

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Matthew Joyner09:06:33

Thanks !! Very interesting talk 👏

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Ciaran Byrne09:06:02

Thanks, @tim, @paul - it was very interesting to hear your story - and a useful insight about the nature of the process exhibiting negative feedback. And Physicists too! 👏👏

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Naren Yellavula09:06:04

Awesome talk @paul and @tim 🙂 A very diverse one.

Macca09:06:12

Thank you, attempted something fun, when we found out follow @jonathansmart1 ... having seen the talks over the years.. like going on after REM 🙂

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inactive09:06:08

“Taylorism won’t quite get us there”. 😆

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John Willis09:06:25

Shout out to Chris Little for the original introduction to Dr Perez's work back in 2015

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:32

But that won’t stop people from trying 😉

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inactive09:06:50

@paul @tim I doubt those business language problems you describe are experienced at tech giants. Very fascinating!! cc @mik

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inactive09:06:50

@paul @tim I doubt those business language problems you describe are experienced at tech giants. Very fascinating!! cc @mik

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:31

Agreed, the tech giants are way past this.

Tim Dempsey09:06:47

Huge culture gap to bridge..."products are physical things, computers don't have those" - all part of the fun

Macca09:06:07

😲 Voda starting on a new 5 year transformation...

Tim Dempsey09:06:57

There is still value left untarnished!

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:57

Yes, I talked to Chris last DOES Vegas about his story with Perez’s work! Thanks @jwillis

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Jiří Klouda09:06:40

It has been a while since I’ve heard @jwillis reply with “Deming” 🙂

John Willis09:06:12

@mik You deserve credit for really expanding the work. I just read it back then but never did anything with it.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:18

Though interesting some of the culture challenges that @jonathansmart1 summarized in his talk are not entirely missing from those orgs.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:29

Great talk btw @jonathansmart1!

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Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his09:06:36

@mik @genek101 thank you for bringing Carlota Perez to DOES

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:50

Hmm. When will the market saturate for Taylorian leadership?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:50

Hmm. When will the market saturate for Taylorian leadership?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:33

10 years after MBA programs catch up?

inactive09:06:08

…I got goosebumps during this part…

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:41

Re @darrylbrown’s question above, I do think it is a really interesting question.

John Willis09:06:47

Last time I talked to Simon Wardley he said he was going to meet Dr Perez. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

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inactive09:06:55

“it’s all huge experiment. globalization was an experiment. financial bubbles are the result of an experiment”

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:06:59

@mik @genek101: what are your go-to recommendations for someone to learn about Dr. Perez’s work?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:06:59

@mik @genek101: what are your go-to recommendations for someone to learn about Dr. Perez’s work?

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inactive09:06:46

Here’s the podcast I mentioned between Patrick O’Shaugnessy and Jerry Neumann, the famous NYC VC. I thought it was one of the most interesting interviews I’ve ever heard, and actually had to listen to it at normal speed (instead of 1.5x), because the rate of info was too high for me to process otherwise! http://investorfieldguide.com/jerry/

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Li Zhu09:06:00

@mik’s podcast? didn't remember the exact episode

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:06:23

actually had to listen to it at normal speed < high praise!

John Willis09:06:38

@genek101 We should get Wardley and Dr Perez together on a panel. There work overlaps well.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:05

I’ve read every one of her blog posts, and there is quite a lot of what she is talking about now in the newer ones.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:15

I recommend them if you’re interested in some of the topics she is bringing up now that are beyond her 2002 book

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:25

Which leaders is she referring to? 🍊

inactive09:06:54

Oh, and @mik’s podcast interview of her! I’ll post that in thread, too.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:06:35

That’s where it’s at - “win win for society and for business” this is why we should leave none of the human topics at moral or common sense level

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Patrick Debois09:06:48

She is amazing - a message of hope

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inactive09:06:58

“mass production led to mass consumption”

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:29

Yes @patrick.debois256, it is a profound message of hope

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:29

Yes @patrick.debois256, it is a profound message of hope

Patrick Debois09:06:01

She reminds me of Princess Leia :)

Jiří Klouda09:06:52

What is the equivalent to mass consumption in the digital age?

Jiří Klouda09:06:52

What is the equivalent to mass consumption in the digital age?

Todd Brooks09:06:21

Mass Information

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:35

digital production -> digital consumption

Jonathan Evason09:06:39

All of the above haha

Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:06:30

usual goods a s well. Tesla for example

Jiří Klouda09:06:44

Maybe its sharing? Shared data, shared objects, shared cars.

Jonathan Evason09:06:04

I really love this, all the tech and everything aside, it's stuff like this that really gets my mind geared up and excited.

Karl Marfitt09:06:13

Also loving this informed optimism. I can't help but agree that it feels like a global pandemic combined with populist leaders in developed countries might really help to fuel a huge socio-economic turn-around and rapid recovery, golden age baby boomers 2.0 indeed. Humanity still has plenty of improvement opportunities.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:17

Re the question of where we are, according to Carlota Covid-19 triggered the Turning Point, and until we start getting through the downturn/recession and we will not be in the Deployment Period. Until we are in the Deployment Period I don’t think we will see signs of the next Installation Period.

John Willis09:06:45

@jiri.klouda Power... we are running out of compute power...

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John Willis09:06:45

@jiri.klouda Power... we are running out of compute power...

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:08

How much CO2 would be reduced by stopping SOAP parsing...

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)09:06:45

My concern is that last time we had a social situation like this, it took a cataclysmic event (the war) to move on, I would really rather we didn’t have to go through that again

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inactive09:06:53

…wait for it…

Alistair Doran09:06:38

it has already started, COVID19

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:14

@alistair.doran Right. I worked with her a bunch on getting that documented, and where precisely we are wrt Turning Point and Deployment, in this post: In terms of the precise timing, I a bunch with her to document this here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/covid-19-triggered-turning-point-mik-kersten/?trackingId=fIQ0Lwd5TiqCxW%2FxUFg2xA%3D%3D

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Marcello Marrocos09:06:24

I remember when my parents use to say that the refrigerator and stove were older than me when I was on my early 20's. Now we want to have the top of the line every couple years.

Marcello Marrocos09:06:24

I remember when my parents use to say that the refrigerator and stove were older than me when I was on my early 20's. Now we want to have the top of the line every couple years.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:47

I had missed some of the subtlety of how Turning Point shifts to Deployment as it wasn’t in the 2002 book.

Akis Sklavounakis09:06:09

Evolutionary products that have change-built-in is the new long-lived-products

Akis Sklavounakis09:06:09

Evolutionary products that have change-built-in is the new long-lived-products

Kurt A09:06:52

Sadly we have evolutionary products that now brick themselves when their servers in the cloud are switched off 😞

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:11

This is the “everything as a service” view

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:11

This is the “everything as a service” view

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Darryl Brown09:06:00

@mrmarrocos I think that this is mostly based on the cost model over product model

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:06:02

@mik “everything as a service” is such a powerful concept and lens for innovating business models

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John Willis09:06:05

I also think the unattended consequences of complex networks could be overcome by cyber attacks.

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inactive09:06:17

Helluva prediction, @chris.leeworthy. 🙂

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:43

I worry the it will be more like WW1 and less like WW2

inactive09:06:21

“we are now discovering the horrors of what creative destruction has done.”

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)09:06:24

You think we won’t go back to old ways?

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)09:06:24

You think we won’t go back to old ways?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:41

We never go back to the old ways.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:11

Example: people habitually avoid each other in public where I live.

Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:06:36

so many countries/societies are not yet on the "old ways"

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)09:06:53

I tend to think some folks will go back, but if enough of us don’t then we will pull society forward

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Jiří Klouda09:06:54

The more people in the world, the faster the new epidemic comes. They spread globally…

John Willis09:06:52

i love this...

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John Willis09:06:52

i love this...

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Simon Williams09:06:30

Can we make the video go on for another hour?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:10

Keep in mind her models indicate growing inequality in Installation, then declining inequality in Deployment. She’s touching on that now.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:10

Keep in mind her models indicate growing inequality in Installation, then declining inequality in Deployment. She’s touching on that now.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:48

She's right. Without the safety nets stability will be a dream of the past. It's a dangerous time.

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Jonathan Evason09:06:30

"you have a right not to fall of the cliff edge" ❤️

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:35

Psychological safety for the society

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inactive09:06:50

“you cannot have dynamic demand without good jobs; service jobs must be well paid.”

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:56

Why not lead countries the transformational way too?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:15

(Okay, democracy does not choose the best leaders by their leadership skill)

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:15

(Okay, democracy does not choose the best leaders by their leadership skill)

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:04

Our way of life is based on people having hopes and dreams.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:25

Poor leadership doesn't matter in that environment.

Tom Ayerst09:06:22

UBI FTW

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Tom Ayerst09:06:22

UBI FTW

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Giulio Vian09:06:26

Union Bank of Switzerland?

Brian Martin09:06:05

Used to Be Smart?

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Philip Day09:06:28

UBI + UBS

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Jiří Klouda09:06:22

It is about covering the bottom rung of the Maslow pyramid for everyone.

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Giulio Vian09:06:30

Unione di Banche Italiane? TLA are soooo limited

gerald09:06:36

reminds me of egoistic altruism 🙂

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:05

One thing that always strikes me in how she reflects on this is the combination of her visceral and intellectual understanding of the last turning point. She is 80 years old, lived the Oil & Mass production one in dependent Venezuela, and her guidance to us getting through this one is so critical.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:05

One thing that always strikes me in how she reflects on this is the combination of her visceral and intellectual understanding of the last turning point. She is 80 years old, lived the Oil & Mass production one in dependent Venezuela, and her guidance to us getting through this one is so critical.

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Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his09:06:02

I'm finding this riveting.

Jonathan Evason09:06:03

I absolutely love this.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:15

This universal basic income thing would be called communism in some corners of the world. Living in a Scandinavian welfare state, we consider ourselves capitalist and are a lot closer to reaching that.

Davy Kenis09:06:17

always impressed when people from such an older age inspire us!!

Alistair Doran09:06:34

I really hope I have the same drive as she has at the of age 80

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Alistair Doran09:06:34

I really hope I have the same drive as she has at the of age 80

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Ciaran Byrne09:06:09

I hope I have a fraction of her intellectual capacity at 60!

John Willis09:06:39

Not to be cynical here. Before we get ppl internet we should get the 10.7 percent percent of the world's population .. food

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John Willis09:06:39

Not to be cynical here. Before we get ppl internet we should get the 10.7 percent percent of the world's population .. food

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Simon Williams09:06:54

Maslow's Hierarchy for sure

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:20

Have you read Factfulness?

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Tom Ayerst09:06:25

FAir, but it isn’t binary

gerald09:06:29

why not both? 😉 different areas are on different maslow’s level anyway. but yeah we start with food for a lot of the world

Brian Martin09:06:58

Lack of food isn't a scarcity problem, it's a logistics problem.

John Willis09:06:01

I was about to say that... They can and do work together. Just sometime we get caught up in tech and not humanity.

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John Willis09:06:43

@UKSUTSH7G Love it.

John Willis09:06:06

@ferrix No but I'll check ti out.

Michelle Moss09:06:08

Could everyone having the internet help get food?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:33

To avoid pandemics like this and far more people dying of vaccinateable diseases every year, lifting the baseline is something that has to happen before everyone can be safe "again" (or finally)

Tom Ayerst09:06:01

Alos… “Utopia For Realists” - good read

John Willis09:06:57

We are the privileged... we should all do something today. I am going do something today...

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:13

@jwillis Sheds light to how we have actually made extreme poverty better and how media being media doesn't pay attention.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:20

(I don’t often use heart’s @jwillis)

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John Willis09:06:41

This is all good stuff

gerald09:06:01

@jwillis - and the fun thing is, no need to go somewhere else. there are people around us that we can help with what we have. 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:07

@U015RM8BRS9 Truish. However, there are local and global optimizations in this too.

gerald09:06:34

@ferrix - you have a point. there are also opportunities at the big scale.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:15

Yup. And impactful ways to join in without leaving home.

Jonathan Evason09:06:08

Working from home has helped me rediscover my garden, cooking etc, and really reevaluate in my life what I need vs what I think I want and ultimately less consumption makes so much sense.

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Adam Mcchesney09:06:15

I am so glad that someone is talking about the problem that mass consumption is having. Great talk

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:06:03

How do you temper enthusiasm enough not to make the team see this and another 2-3 talks? 🙈

Michelle Moss09:06:13

Looking at our whole lives as part of the new revolution means that you invest in it too

inactive09:06:35

@jwillis Here’s a lecture I went to from Ramez Naam, on the tech breakthroughs needed to feed the world, get sufficient water, etc. http://scribes.tweetscriber.com/realgenekim/328 (Ramez went to raves with Adam Jacob in Seattle. Small world. 🙂

inactive09:06:03

TL;DR: absolutely requires tech.

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John Willis09:06:39

@genek101 wow...

inactive09:06:11

agreed, @mik — this is amazing

inactive10:06:50

❤️ ❤️ ❤️

Ciaran Byrne09:06:33

Yep - holy cow

Simon Williams09:06:02

Would listen to Carlota all day

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Michael Kutik - SAP SE09:06:14

I just asked myself what this all means for China - the so called new super power (of mass production?)

Philip Day09:06:39

China put $30bn into an AI initiative a few years ago

Alistair Doran09:06:50

In my opinion we need to adopt micro architecture in all walks of life to balance it. e.g. we generate are own power, whenwe run short are next stop is community generated power and only then we tap into the national grid.

Alistair Doran09:06:50

In my opinion we need to adopt micro architecture in all walks of life to balance it. e.g. we generate are own power, whenwe run short are next stop is community generated power and only then we tap into the national grid.

Jonathan Evason09:06:54

I've often considered how we could do this.

Jonathan Evason09:06:47

Awesome I will give this a read.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:06:03

“Society is about people” < ❤️

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:06:03

“Society is about people” < ❤️

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:43

Funny that obvious things like that have to be said out loud to adults like us 😄

inactive09:06:10

She had some super interesting comments on badly we screwed up globalization and China. will try to make an “extended cut” — it’s worthy to be an MBA course

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inactive09:06:10

She had some super interesting comments on badly we screwed up globalization and China. will try to make an “extended cut” — it’s worthy to be an MBA course

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Simon Williams09:06:24

please do 🙏

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Davy Kenis09:06:12

gimme gimme gimme!

Michael Kutik - SAP SE09:06:35

would be interested to hear

Adam Mcchesney09:06:13

yeah China has been investing HEAVILY in ai

Brian Martin09:06:23

Was she the first commander at Starfleet?

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inactive09:06:49

HAHAHAH @brian.martin — yes, I think I saw her in one of the episodes.

Ann Marie Fred - IBM09:06:05

Prof. Carlota Perez is brilliant.

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inactive09:06:05

“sure, our digital transformation take another 2 or 3 years” 😭

inactive09:06:29

“never let a good crisis go to waste”

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Alistair Doran09:06:36

By far the best keynote line up of the summit!! So much inspiration

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems09:06:06

Have past pandemics led to golden ages or major advances?

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems09:06:06

Have past pandemics led to golden ages or major advances?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:52

The plague helped destroy the serf system of labor. 🙂

Philip Day11:06:42

Pandemics have shaped human history in major ways, particularly when they affect different societies asymmetrically, e.g. by clearing incumbents out of the way (Americas), or by blocking an advance (Europeans locked out of Africa for 400 years), or by devastating incumbent Empires (collapse of Mongolian system), or facilitating a major cultural shift (rise of Christianity and Islam both followed in aftermath of major pandemics in Roman and Byzantine worlds respectively).

Jonathan Evason09:06:09

GovOps!

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:40

That point about government is super critical to Carlota btw. That the practices this community is learning get applied to government.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:40

That point about government is super critical to Carlota btw. That the practices this community is learning get applied to government.

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]09:06:51

Fascinating. What is the measure for success for a government? Being re-elected? 😉

Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]09:06:37

Less survival anxiety? Motivators about electors rather than value sooner?

inactive10:06:32

Safety and security and welfare and prosperity of its citizens?

Akis Sklavounakis11:06:57

I speak to leaders from government and military in several countries and there is a lot of interest in flow, agility, etc, but optimising locally is only taking them so far. The huge number of cogs they have to move is mind-boggling.

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]12:06:49

We’re working with UK government. I see less survival anxiety compared to private sector, because tax. I see a hard job made harder because of politics. And I see people doing the work wanting to do it better and in many cases an amazing job has been done (e.g. GDS, HMRC)

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:06:31

@jonathansmart1 Similar to my experiences working with governments as well, unfortunately. The one thing I’ve heard a bit more of is Covid accelerating the need to move faster from policy implementation. I’ve had more discussions with government CIOs in the past 2 months than in my career. So hopefully this leads to a shift in mindset!

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inactive09:06:44

PS: One of my fave talks from DevOps Enterprise Summit was UK HMRC. Incredible how the filing mobile app was made, in one of the most complex IT estates on planet.

inactive09:06:44

PS: One of my fave talks from DevOps Enterprise Summit was UK HMRC. Incredible how the filing mobile app was made, in one of the most complex IT estates on planet.

Simon Williams09:06:15

When was the HMRC talk?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:29

:flag-fi: Finland has gone a long way with digitalizing taxes. Instead of waiting 12 months for the decision, there is now a pre-filled tax return and we get our money back in June by now.

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Macca10:06:38

fun fact Coats Chairman is the X CEO of HMRC...

Pete Nuwayser IBM he/him/his09:06:51

DOES just completely transformed in purpose for me in the last 30 minutes. Dr. Perez talks about the giant lens that is magnifying everything that is strong and lacking in our society, but DOES is putting the lens on the lens.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:58

What an extreme zoom out from DevOps. We are effectively failing if we consider DevOps the final goal.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:02

She wants some of our brains applied there

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:02

She wants some of our brains applied there

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:50

Mine is ready... after a bit of recovery from the conference.

Darryl Brown09:06:12

I think we may see our next installation phase begin as education and technology focuses change towards how systems and technologies are managed, maintained, and secured.

John Willis09:06:41

@mik Thanks for brining this to DOES. We need more of this...

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:05

Thank @genek101 he did all the crazy heavy lifting. Thank you @genek101!!!

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Marcello Marrocos09:06:11

How to make working for the government more attractive and start moving to this change?!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:06:21

Too awesome - how to sustainably dream and why. There’s one framing (yours @mik and @genek101 not hers:) and that’s about even mentioning “the organisation”

Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:06:22

so true about young people and governments. And this issue is even more disaster in a "failed states"

inactive09:06:24

What @mik told me yesterday afternoon : “Never mistake vision [a clear view] for a short distance.” For this particular adventure we just concluded, never truer words have been uttered! 😂😂😂😂

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John Willis09:06:28

You and @genek101 of course...

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Davy Kenis09:06:28

@genek101 the cut of your wave was a bit to late 😄. You should have kept the celebration!

Thomas Williams09:06:29

I love your celebration there Gene!

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Marcello Marrocos09:06:30

It was an exciting conversation!!!

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Simon Williams09:06:23

Engagement with your citizens as customers with a DevOps lens... there must be something written about it out there

Simon Williams09:06:23

Engagement with your citizens as customers with a DevOps lens... there must be something written about it out there

Ciaran Byrne09:06:34

Wow - so much to think on, and so much to be inspired by. Thank you @genek101, @mik and Carlota Perez 👏👏👏

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Stijn Claes - Nike09:06:42

Great chat with Prof Carlota Perez!!!! 👏

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Alistair Doran09:06:06

I think Government are starting to learn to be agile as a result of COVID19, just hope they continue in this direction. Media also to change, as they influence how we look at things and too much blame culture in the media at the moment ........ it's got to STOP!!

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John Willis09:06:07

Love me some Wickett

Richard Herrett09:06:09

Now that was a keynote!

Matthew Joyner09:06:10

Thanks @mik and @genek101 for bringing that to DOES- That was inspirational! 👏

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Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:06:16

thank you @genek and @mik for this great talk and inviting Dr. Perez!

inactive09:06:51

Thanks @mik for helping make that happen! That was an incredible experience! 🙏

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Jon Smart [Better Value Sooner Safer Happier]09:06:57

Thank you @genek101 and @mik for having Carlota Perez at DOES, fabulous.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:09

The best events happen in Dallas

Adam Mcchesney09:06:10

I have always thought the problem with Government is not the bloat but the lack of transparency that causes it. Hmmm if only there was a Devops principle that helped with that :thinking_face: . 😛 Thanks for that talk!!

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:55

3am here in Vancouver so bed time for me, but could not miss this historic moment of having her speak to the community!!! So great you did this @genek. We could consider making something like a #perez-revolutions channel so that those of us interested in continuing the discussion can keep the conversation going.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)09:06:55

3am here in Vancouver so bed time for me, but could not miss this historic moment of having her speak to the community!!! So great you did this @genek. We could consider making something like a #perez-revolutions channel so that those of us interested in continuing the discussion can keep the conversation going.

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Paul Eden10:06:33

Definitely would love to keep this conversation going.

John Willis09:06:33

Breaking things in production sounds good ...

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:37

Of course they fired Crush. 🙂

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Olivia Heel (Catapult PR - Tweeter)09:06:50

yessss - older politicians need to pave the way for younger politicians by sharing wisdom, but also getting out of the way! I've worked on political campaigns in the past and wow is this so true! it's hard to be a "good" person and make your way to Capitol Hill with your virtues still intact - that needs to change

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Olivia Heel (Catapult PR - Tweeter)09:06:50

yessss - older politicians need to pave the way for younger politicians by sharing wisdom, but also getting out of the way! I've worked on political campaigns in the past and wow is this so true! it's hard to be a "good" person and make your way to Capitol Hill with your virtues still intact - that needs to change

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:33

There's no retirement plan for politicians, so no incentive to leave.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)09:06:02

Power is too great an incentive.

Olivier Jacques, DXC09:06:56

Not learning history condemns us to repeat it.

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inactive09:06:07

THANKS FOR BEING UP AT 3am to do this with us, @mik!!!

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Colin Claverie09:06:47

crashing trains together was a THING ?! am i the only one “WTF??”

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:13

Another thing we learn from steam age is safety valves 😄

John Willis09:06:55

Deming to Devops...

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili09:06:18

@jwillis gets to quote Deming for the second time

Jiří Klouda09:06:33

The world is right again. 😄 I miss DevOps Cafe

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John Willis09:06:42

coming soon...

Marcus Davage09:06:38

Quantum Physics is "afoot" not "a foot". #pendantry #grammar

Marcus Davage09:06:38

Quantum Physics is "afoot" not "a foot". #pendantry #grammar

Giulio Vian09:06:55

you can only complain on Slack Twitter and others constantly give me the "noooo" moment

Giulio Vian09:06:39

Slack permits edit typos out of previous messages

Philip Day10:06:06

That was lightning @jwillis thanks!!

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Philip Day10:06:06

That was lightning @jwillis thanks!!

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Kurt A10:06:17

Would be a great blog post - I see so many shallow attributions that float around news, blogs, and twitter

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Kurt A10:06:27

@jwillis ^^

Thomas Williams10:06:25

indeed, thanks @jwillis

John Willis10:06:13

It was actually an old one I did at Velocity years ago (I recorded again for this event). We had two drop outs for lightning talks so I always love talking. Glad you enjoyed it.

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Philip Day10:06:20

I had a go at a visual for a selected history of Agile, in an internal talk at work last year

Philip Day10:06:20

I had a go at a visual for a selected history of Agile, in an internal talk at work last year

Philip Day10:06:31

I went on a 3-day SAFe course early last year, when my brother (a Dev at a LargeBank) heard this, he went apoplectic. The point of the diagram is, a lot of people are trying things like it. You'll notice it subtly eclipsed by "Enterprise Agile".

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)10:06:41

SAFe is a crutch for waterfall dependent organizations to keep feeling like they are controlling all the inputs (while paying some degree of lip service to agile)

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Philip Day10:06:03

@U0166JDQK3K that was the thrust of my brother's rage Fwiw, the course was good for lots of aspects of Agile for the beginner, as long as you ignore the overall branded model... and they mentioned Mik Kersten's Project to Product in passing, which was how I discovered it.

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)10:06:44

@philipday we tried it for 4 PIs. While it had some good things, we found that it really limited short-term agility and maneuverability.

Philip Day10:06:40

Interesting thanks. We've never tried it. Some groups have done something like the 'Big Room' internal PI event on a quarterly cycle, which I observed once, it was cool except that they had very little customer presence or input.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx10:06:14

That is the challenge. Lack of short-term agility because of a heavy focus on predictive planning.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx10:06:37

In theory SAFe encourages you to plan for having a degree of slack to cope with unplanned work.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx10:06:56

But I’ve not seen it in practice as demand for feature work typically far outstrips supply.

Philip Day10:06:47

I suspect the biggest problem is they try to sell it as a complete package, with rules and procedures, rather than encouraging practitioners to pick the bits of a framework that work for them (someone described Disciplined Agile in those terms in a chat earlier in the conference).

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx10:06:04

100%. It might have been me :) i’m a big Disciplined Agile fan.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx10:06:19

(And the “they” is typically the big consultancies doing a SAFe rollout. Dean Leffingwell is much more nuanced about SAFe as a framework!)

Akis Sklavounakis11:06:22

Lean as in the Poppendiecks books for software came in 2000s, but it is a much older concept and practice.

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John Willis10:06:17

@philipday That's awesome

Philip Day10:06:57

Thanks John!

Stephen Magill [MuseDev]10:06:21

I was just reflecting more on Dr. Perez’s observations this morning about turning products into services. It seems like even when this isn’t happening at a company level in terms of what is provided to external customers, it is very much happening internally as part of DevOps transformations. I’ve talked to several people over the last couple of days who mentioned that the way they broke down silos when transforming software delivery was to shift to self-serve / managed-service type offerings. So, for example, IT doesn’t consume tickets and produce VMs (a product), they provide a service that is more responsive and lower overhead. Anyone else see this shift happening?

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Stephen Magill [MuseDev]10:06:21

I was just reflecting more on Dr. Perez’s observations this morning about turning products into services. It seems like even when this isn’t happening at a company level in terms of what is provided to external customers, it is very much happening internally as part of DevOps transformations. I’ve talked to several people over the last couple of days who mentioned that the way they broke down silos when transforming software delivery was to shift to self-serve / managed-service type offerings. So, for example, IT doesn’t consume tickets and produce VMs (a product), they provide a service that is more responsive and lower overhead. Anyone else see this shift happening?

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:33

I can only speak from my experience. When you operate lean (small) teams for internal products, you have no choice but make them self-service. My team is trying to automate metrics based CD coaching. 5 people cannot help 15000 in any other way.

Li Zhu10:06:56

Yeah, agree on that. Otherwise the toil will just eat you alive.

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Adam Mcchesney10:06:01

100% this, i think this happens when an organizations realizes its limits in scaling tasks, and instead makes attempts at shift left activities by providing service platforms.

Li Zhu10:06:07

It has that kind of similarity with what John Willis mentioned yesterday about "Platform as an Interface"

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Tim Dempsey10:06:40

Yes. Build new automated capabilities for the Enterprise. That’s another way of saying “a service”

John Willis10:06:29

@philipday Here's some research I did on a while back. I had some other really good stuff about the original Toyoda history. .. can't find it now... https://itrevolution.com/kata/

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Philip Day10:06:10

Awesome thanks @jwillis!

Steve Spear12:06:54

@david627 @genek101 @jessica.reif re watching your session. Great reference to Taylor. he was right about the importance of studying something to improve it. He was way off on the anti democratic approaches he took--the elite think, the masses do. The assumptions to such an approach are so flawed: • the “everyone else” will actually make matters worse rather than better • that situations are homogeneous, so we can have blanket solutions for a large enterprise. • the cycle time of the environment’s change is wicked slow compared to our cycle time of change. What happens when those aren’t true: • environment changes quickly and we don’t? We’re road kill. • situations are heterogenous not homogenous. Too many problems for elites to solve (eg cycle time problem again. Their problem solving cycle time will never eat through the back log. • if we engage the “everyone else” we can get locally tailored solutions where needed and have collective learning greater than the sum of the individuals.

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Steve Spear12:06:54

@david627 @genek101 @jessica.reif re watching your session. Great reference to Taylor. he was right about the importance of studying something to improve it. He was way off on the anti democratic approaches he took--the elite think, the masses do. The assumptions to such an approach are so flawed: • the “everyone else” will actually make matters worse rather than better • that situations are homogeneous, so we can have blanket solutions for a large enterprise. • the cycle time of the environment’s change is wicked slow compared to our cycle time of change. What happens when those aren’t true: • environment changes quickly and we don’t? We’re road kill. • situations are heterogenous not homogenous. Too many problems for elites to solve (eg cycle time problem again. Their problem solving cycle time will never eat through the back log. • if we engage the “everyone else” we can get locally tailored solutions where needed and have collective learning greater than the sum of the individuals.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations12:06:26

His model was factory as a machine, workers as parts, and management as machine designer/mechanic, finding and replacing faulty parts.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:36

The problem may be that of the interchangeable knowledge worker.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:45

@jwillis Somehow the Andon is really rare in IT at least on my radar. I think it was ten years ago at F-Secure when we had a "bug count stop the line" where we had a threshold where everybody would be closing or rejecting bugs until a lower threshold was reached. Has a huge similarity with error budgets introduced (again) in SRE. After leaving F-Secure, I have not been seeing a lot of thresholds that signal a shift in work mode.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:45

@jwillis Somehow the Andon is really rare in IT at least on my radar. I think it was ten years ago at F-Secure when we had a "bug count stop the line" where we had a threshold where everybody would be closing or rejecting bugs until a lower threshold was reached. Has a huge similarity with error budgets introduced (again) in SRE. After leaving F-Secure, I have not been seeing a lot of thresholds that signal a shift in work mode.

Vlad Ukis12:06:28

how effective was that?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:56

The only thing more effective than that have been the few teams with zero-bug policy

Vlad Ukis12:06:52

Did you observe that metric being gamed at the company?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:23

It was 20-ish teams who sorted out the situation latest at the next Scrum of Scrums. So, it was more of a working agreement and visibility thing within the unit. It may have been that the rejection was used tactically and strategically but keeping the overall count low was the point and I don't see anything wrong.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:33

It's like the oil indicator on your car. Except with software you won't be seeing the black smoke.

John Willis12:06:07

@ferrix Exactly.. Error Budgets are a perfect example of an Andon Cord. Most ppl think that a missed SLO means stop deployment. Actually a missed SLO ( thanks @damon ) what it means is investigate and figure out what's wrong and what can be improved.

John Willis12:06:07

@ferrix Exactly.. Error Budgets are a perfect example of an Andon Cord. Most ppl think that a missed SLO means stop deployment. Actually a missed SLO ( thanks @damon ) what it means is investigate and figure out what's wrong and what can be improved.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:06

Hence keeping your SLO safely away from your SLA, you don't have to stop deployment to keep your money.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:09

@jwillis However, a missed SLO might mean that the team will announce to their business counterpart that there will be less changes for a while and that may lead to all kinds of hard discussions. Which is to tell that driving at safe speeds probably shouldn't always be a purely business pressure decision.

John Willis12:06:57

From my SRE workshop

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:15

Another Andon is the WIP limit where everyone becomes a tester when a certain limit of tickets is seen. They can be subtle and they should always be blameless. However, they are not appealing.

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Steve Spear12:06:57

@david627 @genek101 @jessica.reif Another thought on the leadership skills, particularly outside the .mil world. The willingness to take on responsibility. ADM Rickover is to have said that you can distribute authority but you can never distribute responsibility. It always comes back to you. My impression is that in the .com, .edu world, that’s far less accepted. We see this in all sorts of situations--education where a child is having a poor experience, but the teacher, dean and principal don’t accept responsibility for the experience and outcome. Rather, there’s the wringing of hands, the furrowing of brows, but no actual corrective action.

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Steve Spear12:06:57

@david627 @genek101 @jessica.reif Another thought on the leadership skills, particularly outside the .mil world. The willingness to take on responsibility. ADM Rickover is to have said that you can distribute authority but you can never distribute responsibility. It always comes back to you. My impression is that in the .com, .edu world, that’s far less accepted. We see this in all sorts of situations--education where a child is having a poor experience, but the teacher, dean and principal don’t accept responsibility for the experience and outcome. Rather, there’s the wringing of hands, the furrowing of brows, but no actual corrective action.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili12:06:44

Responsibility can be distributed if there is intrinsic motivation to go with it. So, when the people find the outcome desirable for their own reasons, then you can see that actually happen. But responsibility cannot be told, it must be sold.

Jessica Reif - CrossLead14:06:50

This is spot-on Steve.... we've observed the same with our clients (mostly .com). The top executives are much more likely to point fingers than take personal accountability.

Steve Lohr15:06:09

@rasmus.hald just watching your talk in the library on vimeo, very nice story and I'm happy (maybe a little bit jealous) that you progress so well. unfortunately we are still stuck in the bi-modal phase, how did you get to "devops = strategic" phase?

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Steve Lohr15:06:09

@rasmus.hald just watching your talk in the library on vimeo, very nice story and I'm happy (maybe a little bit jealous) that you progress so well. unfortunately we are still stuck in the bi-modal phase, how did you get to "devops = strategic" phase?

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Rasmus Hald - MAERSK20:06:50

It took a shift in leadership…. (Nothing I can claim credit for) to go past bi-modal IT. From there I was asked to “fix” the situation by bringing Mode 1 and 2 together and that eventually became the unified delivery model

Peter Moore15:06:36

Thanks Jess

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Peter Moore15:06:36

Thanks Jess

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)15:06:34

@pdmoore Perfect! This is the channel where you’ll do Q&A!

Joachim15:06:37

:drum_with_drumsticks:

Yannick Muller15:06:52

I'm so sad i need to leave to catch my daughter. Looking forward participating @pdmoore Q&A. I will watch the replay. Thanks again DevOps Enterprise team making all this brilliant mind in the same spot.

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)15:06:13

@pdmoore is on and ready for your questions!

inactive15:06:51

Up next is @pdmoore!!

inactive15:06:13

I love the opportunity to be taught by @pdmoore!

Peter Moore15:06:31

Thank you Gene

inactive15:06:49

One of the things that I love about @pdmoore’s perspective is that his background is from the business perspective, and more lately, in technology. I love that Peter worked with NYSE listed CEOs, and then alter with tech leaders, which has formed an incredibly unique perspective!

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)15:06:36

@genek101 spanning the business/technology divide. from the business side 🙂

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inactive15:06:39

“Systems of Engagement and Intelligence is what has contributed the vastly increased scope of technology within the org”

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Peter Moore15:06:51

I'm gratified to have the opportunity to share my perspective with the incredible community you've built

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inactive15:06:28

PS: I believe Productivity Zone is what dominates the “dominant architecture” of technology in most orgs — managed as a cost center, spending 80% of technology spend. “Enormous amount of trapped value in Productivity Zone.” Bad things happen when you try to do disruptive things and measure it like a cost center, ala Performance Zone.

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Thomas Williams15:06:43

90% of IT is focused on maintaining systems of record

gerald15:06:46

back in my previous company, aside from SOR, SOE, and SOInt, we were also playing around with the idea of Systems of Innovation. Not sure if my mentor got it from somewhere but they are systems where we were able to crowd source ideas, internal/external job markets for build -> deploy -> measure effect cycles, etc.

Giulio Vian15:06:57

love the clarity he's bringing to the language

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inactive15:06:31

Incubation Zone: at BMW, the electric cars were put in an Incubation Zone, freed from the dominant architecture, able to create new rules, structure. And managed by different measures than Performance Zone. Optimized for learning, not for gross margin, right @pdmoore?

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Peter Moore15:06:56

That's correct

inactive15:06:53

In 2000s at Microsoft, I’m assuming Performance Zone was Office and Windows. Which would kill any competition, like Azure. Or at least starve them of resources. 🙂

Peter Moore15:06:51

They dominated the performance zone to an extent that they were never able to launch a material new business in the 14 years Balmer was CEO

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)15:06:06

@pdmoore a handful of years ago, “intrapreneurship” was a big thing. that concept seems to align well to the “incubation zone”. are they similar?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:06:14

Interesting. I see that sometimes "investing" means that something goes into Incubation Zone for a year and then back to Productivity Zone.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:06:14

Interesting. I see that sometimes "investing" means that something goes into Incubation Zone for a year and then back to Productivity Zone.

Joachim15:06:44

In Zone to Win GM states that a business must support 10% of the organization's revenue to be in the performance zone. Anything lower is in the incubation zone, until it can be grown (or shut down).

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:06:34

I was thinking along the lines of getting hyped about Agile or DevOps or some fad for a year and after a year back into cutting costs.

Peter Moore15:06:54

Intrapreneurship is a component of the Incubation Zone charter and operating model

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Jiří Klouda15:06:32

Microsoft faced a huge challenge in 2002+ with their source control system. When they started developing Longhorn, they took 3 months between a change done by one team could be used by another team as it traveled through their merge cycle. That has set them back 8 years.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:06:44

Lovely example of the power of an open question!

Peter Moore15:06:02

Projects in the incubation zone can go to any of the other three zones depending on what the outcome is your looking for

Peter Fassbinder15:06:09

I observe that a lot of organizations have established incubation zones to initiate new products / businesses based on digitalization, but that they struggle to move from the incubation zone to the transformation zone @pdmoore does this match you observations?

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps15:06:47

I missed that "one question" that they asked each division. What was it?

Peter Moore15:06:51

I will cover that in a few minutes when I talk about the 3 Horizons Model but you are spot on Peter

inactive15:06:53

I love that Splunk story, and was thunderstruck about how the pattern of teams organized around Workday, Salesforce, etc… Parallels exactly what we saw in infrastructure, functional orientation.

Jason Cox - Disney15:06:16

@pdmoore what was the question you asked the Splunk business again? I want to quote it. 😉

Peter Moore15:06:49

What is making it hard for you to achieve the business results you and your team are accountable for in this year's annual plan?

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Peter Moore15:06:49

What is making it hard for you to achieve the business results you and your team are accountable for in this year's annual plan?

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inactive15:06:33

Difficult to say that you don’t have other people’s best interests by asking this question!!! 😆

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:06:49

Interesting how that almost mirrors one of my standard 1:1 questions: “What can I or the company do to help you accomplish what you are trying to accomplish?”

inactive15:06:02

PS: I love that the Swiss Re and the upcoming Siemens Healthcare experience reports represented successful Incubation / Horizon 3 stories, nurtured by Horizon 1. (I feel like we featured another one… it’ll come to me.)

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)15:06:34

Redshirts aren't fodder

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inactive15:06:39

Another incredible gem from @pdmoore: engineering a path away from a hostile vendor, in four months! @scott.prugh I’m sure this warms your heart. 🙂

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Tom Ayerst15:06:49

Hostile Provider bites the dust!

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Giulio Vian15:06:43

not exactly red-shirt rebellion if they got the mission from CIO and $ from CEO but great idea anyway

Thomas Williams15:06:00

Dealing with this now on a small scale, moving away from an ESB, to home built Kafka-based system for one of our clients. 250k to develop. Saves 600k/year + unknown highs support costs/issues.

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Thomas Williams15:06:00

Dealing with this now on a small scale, moving away from an ESB, to home built Kafka-based system for one of our clients. 250k to develop. Saves 600k/year + unknown highs support costs/issues.

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Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG15:06:57

This is awesome!! Make sure to model your growth savings and bring that case back to remind stakeholders. Helps a ton next time you need to.

Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG15:06:58

Our old ESB was not only brittle and expensive but the operational stability discourage growth in the business.

Thomas Williams15:06:07

Wow, yep. I'll definitely keep track of that so we can remind our customer. It's unbelievable. The cost of the ESB, and the issues it has. Over-promise, over-promise..... under-deliver. And this is a "newer" "Devopsy" type company....

Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG15:06:37

ESB's add complexity faster than they add value.

Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG16:06:32

Especially given the free alternatives and the aesthetics required for high performance capabilities: testing, builds, etc.

Thomas Williams16:06:47

Amen! Like Kafka, Nats! Ha.

Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG16:06:28

Or just about anything else that relies on native code vs config and pray...

Thomas Williams16:06:14

Indeed. My goodness. The amount of "config and pray" systems we support that our clients pay obscene amounts of money to maintain, and develop around..... that are core to their business. :'(

😁 1
Peter Moore15:06:20

The key was that they didn't allow themselves to be held hostage by Oracle

👆 8
Peter Moore15:06:20

The key was that they didn't allow themselves to be held hostage by Oracle

👆 8
Giulio Vian15:06:50

far from me defending them 😄

Nick Eggleston (Nix) - IT Architect - (actively looking)15:06:28

@pdmoore: love the example of Edmunds displacing Oracle ERP with internally developed project. ❤️

inactive15:06:39

@tommy Awesome. I’m pretty sure that one of the @scott.prugh stories was also an ESB.

inactive15:06:39

@tommy Awesome. I’m pretty sure that one of the @scott.prugh stories was also an ESB.

Thomas Williams15:06:45

Ahh, yes! The hostile-vendor... Wow.

Scott Prugh - Chief Technology Officer - CSG15:06:21

@pdmoore I love that story of the red-shirts taking over and replacing a hostile vendor!!

👆 1
Davy Kenis15:06:24

Once started an agile/devops transformation with 1 department following the rule of the incubation zone. Big success!

Davy Kenis15:06:24

Once started an agile/devops transformation with 1 department following the rule of the incubation zone. Big success!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:06:22

We got SAFe working in such an environment. Based on the horror stories I've heard since, must have been dreaming.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)15:06:54

Wow! You got SAFe working?

😜 5
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:06:20

Yes. It was flushed in a few years with a CEO change, so don't worry.

😂 2
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)15:06:50

I've post-SAFe stress disorder

upvotepartyparrot 1
Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike15:06:51

Can you come and do a talk about that @UDA3SLC4F?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:06:27

PSSD - often confused with post - Scrum -stress - disorder - similar therapy protocols @UDA3SLC4F

😂 2
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)15:06:44

It's like saying "MacBeth" in a theater

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems15:06:59

I found out this morning that my company is starting SAFe. When I rewatch, Im going to try to pick up lessons learned. If there are lessons learned or things to avoid, I'd love to hear them.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)15:06:34

@U015UDK3RSP I'd be happy to. @UBB3ZRW9K hasn't crushed it yet?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:06:04

@U015MQR554N If it is run by smart people, the management supports it and you are not afraid to move beyond it and have the entire company behind it, you'll be fine.

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike15:06:55

Thanks for the tag @UDA3SLC4F 😬😰

🙈 2
😂 6
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)15:06:58

The problem is when you apply any framework broadly to a large enterprise, step 1 is the last step.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:48

@U015MQR554N as long as the release train is kept to 1 team and "PI Planning" happens every sprint, you should be fine.

😄 2
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:04

Full-time Scrum Masters who want to be Scrum Masters... potential oops

👆 1
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:45

Too few roles for the people who get left without a seat... potential oops

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:26

Too many roles to fill with people who grasp agility on a topical level... potential oops

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:04

Starting every change in the book at once... potential oops

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:17

Starting too few changes... potential oops

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:36

Firing people to enable the transformation... potential oops

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:48

Not firing people after the transformation... potential oops 😄

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:55

Oh, and make sure that every team member is an RTE

1
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:19

Getting the number of trains wrong... potential oops

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike16:06:31

@UDA3SLC4F what do you use now instead of SAFe? Common sense? Lean/Kanban?

😂 1
Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems16:06:37

Uhoh. I already know Im the only permanent person on the release train team. I was hoping to spread that more based on this weeks learning, but this sounds like it will be harder to hand off that responsibility to other teams.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:01

Non-permanent members on a "team"... sure oops

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:38

@U015UDK3RSP teams owning outcomes.

🙌 6
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:16

@UDA3SLC4F If you had teams owning outcomes to begin with, you could have pulled off SAFe 😄

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:06:52

If you have teams owning outcomes you can do XP instead of SAFe

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:27

@rohrersm You need SXPFe to scale it to other functions

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:32

SAFe was the attempt to roll out agile from pilot.

Davy Kenis16:06:37

let’s start a safe-fanboard slack channel :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:06:48

If you have teams owning outcomes you descale instead of scaling

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:01

In practice, it's agile fan fiction.

😀 4
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:46

@rohrersm Most developers don't want to work in customer-facing roles so the "other Ops" will be left undone in many businesses. But if your API is your product, sure.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:11

However, the Dojo Consortium is working on a scaling framework. @UKD66ED0V has proposed Scaled Agile Devops Maturity Framework. Who wants a certification?

😄 3
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:09

@UDA3SLC4F I think I have the certification already

😂 3
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:17

Very similar. "Enterprise transformation without the risk of culture change"

😂 2
Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:06:45

can’t we agree it’s WoT(WayOfThinking)NotWoW (WayOfWorking) and good will irrespective of framework? :woman-shrugging:

💯 1
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:32

When we work with teams, we tell them we don't care how they do it. Only otcomes matter.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:46

I have been thinking about a book about "Talk to people and find out what the problem is" framework but I am still looking into how to excite anybody to actually try it once.

👍 1
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:59

"try these things. Keep what works. Here's the metrics."

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:06:04

“only outcomes matter”: can I plug a new book on just that topic

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:13

Would you consider ALL of the outcomes?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:28

Yes. Is the customer being served Are associates happy? Is our bottom line improving

2
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:01

My book idea: Strategies for Improving Where You Work - Tips from a Wildly Optimistic Pragmatic Cynic

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:11

My book idea: Strategies for Improving Where You Work - Tips from a Wildly Optimistic Pragmatic Cynic

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:59

Well, the main point of agile development is we are trying to find out how wrong we are rapidly. Accidental outcomes are expected. 🙂

👍 4
Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:06:24

I mean happy accidents- we just need to pay attention

👍 1
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:16

I didn't expect lifelong friendships to form from working to execute CI as a team.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:42

Happy accidents like: "Nobody resigned today"

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:06:18

there - no book in the new manifesto: 1. Do the things; 2. Pay attention; 3. Don’t be dumb; 4. Don’t be an a-hole; 5. Be agile in your DNA

3
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:15

the previous manifesto had four lines. Any of those you could ignore to make it concise?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:01

I was thinking the 4. is a bit hostile towards a-holes.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:08

Could we let that one slip? 😄

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:06:51

LoL on the contrary we should try for no “Psychological Safety for a-holes”

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:55

Yeah. How can the a-holes be psychologically safe now?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:09

Orange Toddler in Chief rally

1
Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:06:08

in fact l’d be on board with scrapping all but 4 - isn’t agile smart and observational common sense anyhow?:)

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:06:39

I’d like to think so. But some of it is uncommon sense unfortunately 😕

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:06:32

“You should plan things in detail before coding them” feels like common sense to some. “Finish all your analysis before you bother the developers so as not to waste their time”. Etc.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:23

People struggle thinking small enough and also having broad views at the same time.

💯 1
Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:06:23

is this an end of conf major topic musing with a touch of cynicism and blasè sarcasm vibe?

💯 1
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:30

@me1342 now that you mention it. The "don't be dumb" is worth dropping since you need to role play dumb to test effectively. So either it has to go or be "be dumb only on purpose" 😄

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:41

They fail at the first and also think they are supposed to ignore the second.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:06:07

bring that dumb is being smart @ferrix so doesn’t count

😀 1
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:37

No, not roleplay dumb. You need to be evil to test

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:06:57

Yep, that’s a Liz Keogh thing. Testers wearing the evil hat.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:02

@UDA3SLC4F evil and dumb find different bugs

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:16

Yeah, but I can automate dumb

😀 2
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:55

The universe will create better fools is the ultimate challenge of foolproofing

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:52

It's been really great talking to you all. Don't be strangers. Slack is forever.

🙏 1
Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems16:06:27

Based on what you guys said, there's a high likelihood I will be annoyed by some of the SAFe ceremonies. I will definitely come back to vent/ get advice 🙂

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:39

Oh, I've got scars @U015MQR554N. I'm now a SAFe cracker.

🤪 1
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:57

@U015MQR554N The ceremonies are not the problem. It is understanding what they can do for the people which is often skipped.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:35

Yes. This is true. Process over People is a big red warning.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:16

So if the SoS is about redirecting the people every day over the most pressing issues and impactful priorities, it will be time well spent.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:04

"Are we learning together right now?" is the one question quiz that will point you to any bad smell in any brand of Agile ceremonies.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:25

A problem I saw was skipping the core skill of breaking down work to the size required for CD. This proofs the team against priority switching.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:18

I am seeing a lot of difficulty of splitting things small enough being seen as the more important thing while the real thing is no shared vision. With that one, the batch size will be easier too.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:06:55

"If that's the necessary next thing, maybe now is not the time of making this in an overengineered way"

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:38

I went to a program manager once and asked what the overall product goal was. He gave me marketing nonsense. I told him I couldn't test against that goal.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:48

If you cannot test against the goal, stop development.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:06:48

If you can, then lay out the roadmap and align the teams to the roadmap along domain boundaries and drop batch size to multiple deploys per day per team.

💯 1
Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:06:07

Continuously ask yourself: how can I get from concept to cash in less than an hour.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:06:30

And any story bigger than a day has too much uncertainty (channeling Paul Hammant)

👍 3
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili20:06:47

If you are certain that it is absolutely the most impactful thing, who cares how big it is?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:06:37

If it's bigger than 2 days then you don't know how big it is, it has too much uncertainty about what it should actually do, it probably has unknown dependencies, etc.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:06:00

I can barely estimate 3 days. More than that is SWAG

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:06:55

If you decompose it with BDD, you can easily slice it into tiny, testable deliveries.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili20:06:05

But if it still has the biggest impact, who cares? The software industry is not saying enough: "It is ready when it is ready"

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili20:06:47

Sure, releasing daily is all well and good but if there is no cost of delay, like so often is the case, then none of it makes sense and if CoD is a certainty, then you simply do it.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili20:06:49

This is what I mean saying that understanding the vision trumps focus on batch size.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:10

Big impact is made up of many small impacts. If the batch size is large, so is the risk> 1. There are probably more bugs 2. Even if there are no "bugs" you don't have the requirements clarity required to deliver what was actually needed. This drives the defect vs enhancement arguments 3. It's too big to code review 4. The lack of requirements clarity means it's poorly tested.

1
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:27

Quality is tightly coupled to batch size.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:37

Also, I would never have a custom house built without incremental inspection during construction. Why would I allow that in software when incremental inspection is so much easier?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:44

From a team perspective, customers tend to put less pressure on a team when they observe progress. You get much better customer or business relationships with daily progress.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:11

Yeah, that's a feasible way to implement anything locally. The problem I am seeing that the missing monkey in between is verifying that whatever you split, plan, prepare, implement and test is really important.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:14

There's no upside to big batches.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:06

So the phenomenon I am seeing is not asking the important questions of why that stuff is on the backlog in the first place. So it is essentially local optimization of implementing something of questionable business value in high quality.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:10

That is what a PO is for; keep the roadmap continuously prioritized.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:22

Also, define the value upfornt.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:47

Yes, many people do desire driven development and hope someone wants it. That's just lazy.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:14

When you incentivize people for delivering features vs value, you get that outcome.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:55

Even more critical to deliver smaller in that situation so someone can say "STOP!" sooner. 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:27

Incentivise to to be a feature factory and/or never bother the implementation people with the business

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:09

Yes. I've talked to people in other companies who's bonuses were tied to features delivered.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:28

Delivering smaller really doesn't solve the problem unless you have a feedback loop from implementation to assumed user behavior. Otherwise you've just been a good drone deploying something fast as commanded 😄

😥 1
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:03

I agree. When I say "deliver" I mean "live in prod".

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:01

Me too. But if there is no hypothesis, live in prod is "probably good"

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:41

Your end user will tell you if it's quality. Critical to have that feedback loop.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:46

Removing undesirable functionality is a black belt concept

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:21

The end user will "tell" by never clicking the new button and you'll be maintaining it for extended amounts of time before that.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:56

Unless you have OCD people who spend their time driving down code complexity. 😄

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:36

No different than developers building houses no one is buying.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:58

It's important for the company paying for those houses to understand the housing market.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:30

Intangible houses are easier to make in excess

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:54

So, understanding the vision is step one and splitting is step two and many of the teams I have met have infinite pride in skipping step one and feel smug about getting better at standalone step two. 😄

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:55

Still have ongoing costs. Strange to me that some people don't understand that every line of code costs money by existing. Companies that incentivize that are just burning money.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:43

Yes. They probably lack ownership of outcomes.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:13

Harder cost to calculate: code inventory. We did find 16M€ in a 100 team 6 week release cycle. Most CFOs are not counting.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:47

Yep. Trying to make that visible I think is important.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:18

"What are the reasons for everybody waiting?"

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:53

We should grab a beer and increase the bandwidth. 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:01

Processes do not exist for no reasons, but sometimes nobody remembers what those were.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:26

They keep building new ones 😄

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:39

But sure, tough questions is all it takes.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:06:33

raincheck. almost 1 am here and ready to zzz

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems21:06:44

I'm still a fly on the wall reading this conversation. If you guys do meet up, I'd love to listen in!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:06:47

I'm grabbing a drink. If anyone joins in the next 10 minutes, we can have an after conf, beverage.

Peter Moore15:06:41

Great to hear

inactive15:06:34

“Demand management” — because it’s not actually an all you can eat buffet… 😆 …and because we may not actually have the skills to do it …and do we know how to measure whether it was worth doing. Aweosme.

3
Nick Eggleston (Nix) - IT Architect - (actively looking)15:06:53

was pivoting to an open source ERP project instead of developing internally considered?

Peter Moore15:06:10

Not to my knowledge

Nick Eggleston (Nix) - IT Architect - (actively looking)15:06:55

Sometimes it's easier to just develop than search for an evaluate open source

George M15:06:23

Demand management... Wow... Pure gold in those three questions... Sometimes you feel you are under a water hose of new demands

inactive15:06:28

Actually, now that I’m listening to it, I’m thinking the Swiss Re iptiQ story has now moved into the transformation zone. If I understood correctly, iptiQ was designated as a “unicorn,” with valuation higher than $1B. cc @victoria_mayo @james839

Duncan Lawie15:06:13

Software as a new business opportunity 👍

Peter Moore15:06:41

Just part of running IT as a profit center

Peter Moore15:06:41

Just part of running IT as a profit center

Duncan Lawie15:06:02

Needs the business to see itself as a tech company

Davy Kenis15:06:14

nice horizons @pdmoore! Thx for sharing

Davy Kenis15:06:14

nice horizons @pdmoore! Thx for sharing

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)16:06:16

it’s amazing to (re)discover these concepts aft