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#ask-the-speaker-plenary
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2021-05-19
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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:40

Getting energy back is so true!!! ๐Ÿคฏ

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Chris09:05:59

re-energizing to keep the fight... quite true

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)09:05:52

I do love these conferences and get a lot back from them. I do sometimes get frustrated though. A bit like getting into artisan coffee and having to go back to instant! So much to do in my area ๐Ÿ™‚

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Chris09:05:59

Sure you come back from conferences willing to change the world in one (let's say two) weeks, and got a bit of frustration needing a few additionnal monthes... ๐Ÿ˜‰

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:57

Any transformation is a long journey, days or months or years depends on the culture and commitment

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:58

Frustrating, and yet it helps me keep the faith. It isnโ€™t just my imagination, these things exist in the world!

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)09:05:15

we've changed organisation structures many times over the last three years so it often feels like starting again with new leaders!

Chris09:05:47

If culture and mindset don't change, probably you can exhaust all available leaders and stay in the status quo indeed

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley09:05:08

Don't underestimate the therapy effect of this conference. It helps with the enthusiasm gap to know that we are not alone and many companies have the same problems and are solving them!

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)09:05:16

thats a great point, with all the setbacks this does help to reinvigorate and provide the energy to keep pushing!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:12

โ€œall problems are people problemsโ€

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:39

Unicorn Project quote - "Human Error" ๐Ÿ™‚

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:16

i heard a quote onceโ€ฆ โ€œthe really hard problems are not with the hardware, software, or firmwareโ€ฆ theyโ€™re with the peopleware.โ€

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Chris09:05:02

Tech issues so much easier than human ones... Hopefully some powerfull AI once doesn't come to this conclusion...

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:56

Ah, the birth of the Next Gen Ops and Infrastructure track, from @jason.cox

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:59

That unhappy face is sure scary ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)09:05:35

He looks not amusedโ€ฆ๐Ÿ˜

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:15

The SME talks like the one from Chris Strear yesterday, so invaluable it's crazy

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:49

So great to hear, @philipp.boeschen650!!

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:35

The literal firehose of information talks from John Willis are great memories, I remember him saying a few years ago that K8s will come in big... ๐Ÿ˜„

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:09

@jtf โ€œConferences are for conferring!โ€ ๐Ÿ™‚

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:29

@genek101 (@genek), what are the other conferences that are favorites of yourself and other members of the programming committee, and why?

Bernard Voos (FedEx)09:05:33

Really appreciate the networking time, @genek101! Itโ€™s a big difference from other virtual conferences Iโ€™ve attended.

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)09:05:46

@jonathansmart1 played a huge part in helping us frame the networking at DOES and @dominica for many years brought leadership and collaboration to our Lean Coffee sessions!

Bernard Voos (FedEx)09:05:37

Thank you @jonathansmart1 and @dominica!!!! Fantastic work, keep it up

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:45

The networking time is such a huge part of what makes DOES a fantastic experience. Thank you @jonathansmart1 and @dominica. Let us know how we can help make it better.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:17

Glad to hear youโ€™ll be keeping lessons learned from the virtual conference in the physical world

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:16

...and hopefully continuing some virtual conferences or integrating virtual and physical, once the world gets back to normal.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:19

721 talks!!! ๐Ÿ’ฅ

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:36

your "CRAP" lightning talk is top class for me :)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:31

Many thanks to @jonathansmart1 to helped crack the code on how to get networking time right!

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David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group09:05:04

Do you think future conferences will be a blend of virtual and in person or only in person?

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:32

I hope they find a way to blend the physical and virtual together (and have some virtual only conferences as well). This will be a very interesting topic for experimentation, feedback and improvement.

Jim Moverley - BT09:05:22

discussions and those participating in them have been phenomenal : gather has come into its own ๐Ÿ™‚

Luke Rettig - Target09:05:39

love the analytics on watch usageโ€ฆ can help hone in on insights as to problems the community is facing and looking to get more details on!

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:33

says the expert product manager ๐Ÿ˜‚

Luke Rettig - Target09:05:17

fastest feedback loop you can getโ€ฆ

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:28

Will the Q&A from Slack be integrated into each video in the Video Library? It would be useful.

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:58

@nickeggleston that would be terrific. itโ€™s in the backlog!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:34

Anyone not in Slack is missing 1/2 the conference

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:23

...and those not using Gather Town are missing the other <large percentage>

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:08

Iโ€™m looking forward to being there today! Wasnโ€™t able to join yesterdayโ€ฆ and felt I was missing out. ๐Ÿ˜ž

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:39

A good question, @davidorsi72 โ€”ย weโ€™re not quite sure yet. If we have time, Iโ€™d love to brainstorm about this with yโ€™all. Thereโ€™s so many interesting ideas to bring into IRL conferences next year.

David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group09:05:15

Happy to get involved in those discussions. I attend some regular meetups which would have been in person in Edinburgh. As itโ€™s virtual, we get people from across the globe, so increases our diversity. They are trying to get their head round this too. I do miss meeting people in person. I attended DOES 18 in London and it was a game changer for me.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:32

Also happy to get involved with this, since I am one of those who have found the virtual experience even more valuable than in-person. There's a risk that will be lost, without being very deliberate as in-person ramps up again.

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:05:59

A warm welcome this morning to @colas.a and @olimpia.nitti from Procter & Gamble ๐Ÿ‘

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Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)09:05:21

I've recommended @mikโ€™s talk last year on Flow Framework to many, many people through our org subscription ๐Ÿ™‚

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Chris09:05:44

thanks remembering me to re-read the book thumbsup_all

Patrick Anderson - Tasktop - he/him09:05:47

If you enjoy listening to Mik, make sure you catch his talk today on OKRs and Flow Metrics (12.05 BST), as well as checking out his podcast with incredible guests including Gene Kim, Brian Solis (Salesforce), Maya Liebman/Ross Clanton (American Airlines), Pieter Jordaan (TUI Group), Adrian Cockroft (Amazon), Dr. Nicole Forsgren, Don Renertsen and more, the list in endless...https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:55

I think the org sub is a great way to share the videos internally, as well as raising awareness of DOES and providing funding for growth.

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)09:05:36

I love @mikโ€™s podcast ๐Ÿ™‚

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Chris09:05:47

Thanks for pointing out @patrick.anderson thumbsup_all

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Patrick Anderson - Tasktop - he/him09:05:37

Pleasure! Helps fill the void between DOES every year ๐Ÿ˜

Chris09:05:19

Well my audible account is packed with tens/hundreds of books including all of itrevolution, Dr Goldratt... But didn't know this podcast, thanks!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:05:54

"They really didn't go beyond the title of the book" - that's why mine are so darn long - some people never do

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:16

Iโ€™m so delighted that youโ€™re presenting, @colas.a and @olimpia.nitti!! This is such a great story, bringing technology back to business units and brand!

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:29

captions - new feature? @annp? @alex

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff09:05:49

For now, Track 2 is captionless if you prefer!

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:39

Captions are useful - use preference to turn on / off will be good one

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:00

BTW where could I find the Twitter handles for these speakers?

Olivier Jacques, DXC09:05:49

Definitely automated captions, yet useful (spotted religious -> releases ๐Ÿ™‚ )

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Adrienne Shulman09:05:41

DINO - Devops in name only.... very relatable! ๐Ÿ˜†

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Chris09:05:27

What's in a name...

Alfredo Colas09:05:08

@ashulman Not everyone was happy with that declaration... It was true, anyway

Adrienne Shulman09:05:48

@colas.a well, of course not! ๐Ÿ˜‰

Luke Rettig - Target09:05:34

those survey questions would be awesome to see @colas.a!

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)09:05:49

@colas.a - how did you come up with the 70/30 split? Have you adjusted it over time?

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Olivier Jacques, DXC09:05:08

@colas.a - how useful did you found the maturity survey to drive progress?

David Read09:05:36

Love that teams are incentivized and declare themselves agile, rather than having it forced from above.

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Chris09:05:05

Reminds me of @jonathansmart1 Certified Really Agile Practioner talk...

Alfredo Colas09:05:47

@bernard.voos -- It was not designed up front. It was where the cost ended. I expect central costs to go down over years and adoption of tools to go up so it will likely evolve towards 60/40 or 50/50.

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Philip Day09:05:15

@colas.a, would love to hear more about the training you put on for business leadership

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)09:05:17

What sort of topics were covered in the Business Leader training? Iโ€™m curious if you saw greater buy-in from them after this training and what they learned from the training that helped them โ€˜getโ€™ agile/devops better.

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Alfredo Colas09:05:33

@olivier.jacques -- The survey helped people get a better understanding of where they were. It opened their eyes to areas they were not considering and rebaselined where they were. Just for that it was helpful. On top, we created some elements of a competition. Nobody likes having a 1000 points when their colleagues have 4000

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:03

Can you share more about this in detail... such as the questions and answer sets and how you scored them? And how frequently and in what form you did follow-up...

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)09:05:28

It's the leaderboard nature of this that is the "Aha!" moment. It is always going to drive teams

Pemba Norgay09:05:06

Can you share bit more detail on your , welcome to your devops challenge, what does this look like. What outcome were u driving from this challenge. Thx

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:19

I love this glimpse behind the business of Pampers from @olimpia.nitti!

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Alfredo Colas09:05:35

The business leadership training tried to demystify both Agile and DevOps and explain it in simple terms. We have used a few different approaches, including comparing IT to one of our manufacturing plants (I wonder where we got that inspiration ๐Ÿ™‚).

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Chris Gallivan, Stellantis, Value Stream Architect09:05:01

Gary Gruver has a DevOps certification that uses this same analogy

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:36

Did you bring in any of @jonathansmart1's rebranding of Agile+Devops as "Better Value, Sooner, Safer, Happier"?

Philip Day10:05:43

@colas.a would be great to catch up in one of the breaks if you are around

Alfredo Colas14:05:00

@nick.kritsky Yes, we are using BVSSH

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:43

Love making the change while keeping the budget the same.

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)09:05:08

I often feel that money isn't the problem, it's how you waste time/money in a large org that is the problem.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:29

I agree @matthew.cobby, and actually too much money can then be a barrier to improvement, because it allows us to continue the waste.

Olivier Jacques, DXC09:05:45

Interesting (old) book on transforming teams by replacing habits by other habits (and great portion of the book is about P&G) - "Power of Habit" https://www.amazon.fr/Power-Habit-What-Life-Business/dp/081298160X

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Meda Psibilskyte09:05:38

Great content @colas.a and @olimpia.nitti, thanks for sharing the story. How are you planning to roll out Agile practices across all teams globally? Or has this already been achieved?

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Alfredo Colas09:05:01

@olivier.jacques -- Culture is what we repeatedly do. To change culture we had to change what we do.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:46

Very much our hypothesis in Agile Conversations.

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Arne Brasseur (CEO - Gaiwan, he/him)09:05:22

If folks can tag book recommendations with the bookmark emoji ๐Ÿ”– like I did above then we can pull those out of the logs afterwards and bundle them.

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)09:05:23

did you find demonstrable improvements in LT buy-in (for example providing presumably business PO's) after the LT training

Alfredo Colas09:05:45

@mpsibilskyte -- This is global already. We have over 120 teams in multiple Business Units and Central teams across almost every region

Meda Psibilskyte09:05:49

This is a huge win, congratulation on that! Are you pursuing a centralised Agile tooling approach or a more โ€œlet the teams choose what they work withโ€? And whatโ€™s your rationale behind it?

Alfredo Colas15:05:01

The answer is both. We have a number of tools managed centrally. In some areas, we even have several tools managed centrally as they meet slightly different use cases or needs. In some areas, we do not provide any central tool for now. Still, we foster collaboration within a Community of Practice so that we learn from each other. Eventually, some of them may become centrally managed if there is a scale advantage (but that is not mandatory).

David Sampimon (ING)09:05:10

I am curious if the 'scale workstream' (rebuilding legacy to microservices) and the ' innovation' workstream (build new features on target), impacted employee happiness/motivation in those streams?

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:04

@colas.a @olimpia.nitti this and how did you measure (if you did)?

Alfredo Colas09:05:50

@genek -- It seems we lost your questions...

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:45

@colas.a @olimpia.nitti thanks for sharing! Are you bringing together 'our business' and IT into multidisciplinary teams?

Olivier Jacques, DXC09:05:19

@colas.a @olimpia.nitti - "only" for web sites, or do you have other services where this transformation was rolled out?

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Olimpia Nitti09:05:58

Within Pampers we run all our digital products (mobile apps, eCom) using agile

Alfredo Colas09:05:45

@jonathansmart1 We are doing that more and more. It is not perfect but we are doing much better. We are now even getting 'business' to appoint the POs, instead of all of them coming from IT.

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Chris Shuknecht09:05:56

Was the training for business leadership curated by your teams? If so, I'd be curious to know what types of content you found most successful.

Olimpia Nitti09:05:27

@david.sampimon we didnโ€™t split the teams between old and newโ€ฆthe entire group wanted to get rid of the old and jump on the new

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David Sampimon (ING)09:05:00

Thank you for clearing this up Olimpia!

Luke Rettig - Target09:05:59

this was a big learning for meโ€ฆ i experimented with both and found the teams that owned both, time and time again, had much better outcomes!

Alfredo Colas09:05:01

@olivier.jacques -- This example is about our Pampers website but we have examples across the board: Supply Chain, HR, Sales...

Olivier Jacques, DXC09:05:15

...and that's what blows my mind. Looking forward to what's next!

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:15

One thing to note though - it is P&G 's 10 + years journey

Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)09:05:26

@olimpia.nitti when you give the advice of "know what you want, know your KPIs and outcomes you are after" (which I agree with), were these made transparent to everyone across all layers and how the progress you made towards them was looking at all times?

Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)09:05:09

Was the progress towards KPIs reported via OKRs?

Olimpia Nitti09:05:42

Yes to both questions - all KPIs are shared within the full team - the team members have to know whatโ€™s being valued

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Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)09:05:14

@olimpia.nitti How much of the solutions devising was done on ground level by the teams to help test what will deliver towards the targets? I am interested in the empowerment part especially.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:37

โ€œChange is optional โ€”ย survival is not mandatoryโ€ ๐Ÿ˜‚ I love that Deming quote.

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Tino Dietel, Tradebyte, Engineering Lead09:05:33

I surely will use that quote. ๐Ÿ˜‚

Meda Psibilskyte09:05:00

โ€œconsumers donโ€™t want product anymore - they want experiencesโ€ Gold!

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Adrian (Tasktop)09:05:09

fantastic story, congratulations @olimpia.nitti and @colas.a - what happens next? Are you done with transforming?

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:36

Candles->Soap>....Pringles-->First company to air TV commercial

David Sampimon (ING)09:05:47

Great talk @olimpia.nitti and @colas.a

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Alfredo Colas09:05:59

@adrian.jones The journey continues. We have not stopped in 183 years, no reason to do now

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Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting09:05:36

@olimpia.nitti You mentioned that your teams were energized by the challenge they faced. But I think it's hard to strike a good balance here and not overwhelm teams. Can you give any insights on how you made sure that the challenge is not "too much" for your teams?

Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)09:05:38

@colas.a How did you bring the leadership trainings around? Did you curate these or did the respective teams curate their own leaders?

Danilo09:05:50

@olimpia.nitti @colas.a great presentation!

Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:05:57

THANK YOU, @colas.a and @olimpia.nitti! Next up this morning, @jakob.knutsson657 and @daniel.claesson from H&M Group!

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Saurabh Singh09:05:58

Statement from @olimpia.nitti - " Dont want only Product but experience " -- exactly everyone should work towards it.. thanks for sharing your experience

Khyati Ghatalia09:05:13

Absolutely brilliant transformation journey at P&G. Thank you for sharing @colas.a and @olimpia.nitti. It is interesting to hear that you kept the budget flat. I would like to hear more about where did you start and how was it planned ?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:16

Thanks @colas.a @olimpia.nitti!

Alfredo Colas09:05:24

@christian.kullmann -- We have curated a number of central materials but then we have left the teams curate / adapt to their needs. At the same time, some teams created new materials that we then turned into global materials. Reapplication is rewarded!

Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)09:05:19

And then you had them hold workshops and trainings in their respective departments with your support if necessary?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:26

Thank you so much @colas.a and @olimpia.nitti!!!

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Olimpia Nitti09:05:32

@andreas.baernthaler I didnโ€™t impose the timing but asked the team to come back with a planโ€ฆso it was self paced

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Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting09:05:43

In my experience it is far too common to impose timelines from the outside. I think it's brilliant that you empowered the team to decide on their own. Thanks for sharing!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:39

And now please welcome @jakob.knutsson657 and @daniel.claesson!

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:50

Definitely could use a small break in time between presentations to finish up and transition the chat... hard to focus on both at once.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:33

There is a 5m break today, that wasnโ€™t consumed by talks going late like yesterday. ๐Ÿ™‚

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:24

and also scrolling through all the slack questions, answers & important pointers

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:24

Yes, while I like the -plenary channel, so I don't have to switch between channels, it would also be nice to have the Q&A in a channel per presentation (and/or maybe per author or group). I realize this is difficult.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:14

Also, threading of the Q&A and queueing to make sure questions aren't missed is another place for improvement.

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Raj Ayyagari09:05:31

@colas.a @olimpia.nitti Thank you. Great to see the success journey as a co-P&G'er in this forum :)

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Daryl Watts (he/him)09:05:36

@nickeggleston - agreed, or even to take a (very) quick bathroom break!

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)09:05:29

I'm watching the videos on my phone, so I can go to the bathroom or kitchen as needed, but then I have to play catch-up on the Slack.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:12

It's also hard for the speakers as the Q&A goes on for a while after their video ends, so they don't get a chance to be part of the audience for the video that follows.

Daryl Watts (he/him)10:05:39

Isnt that the ask the speaker more channel?

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:34

That breaks the flow... I see that as more of a channel to ask questions later when something occurs. Threading is definitely an unsolved problem here.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:21

โ€œI am Fredrikโ€ < that caught my attention more than is reasonable. ๐Ÿ˜„

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff09:05:31

P&amp;Gโ€™s DevOps Journey with @colas.a & @olimpia.nitti is already live for sharing here! https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641782

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Tim B09:05:44

@jakob.knutsson657 - I would have taken two to 4 weeks until fairly recently.,.....its been known as months for us.....but we are getting better and its now days

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:44

2-4 weeks for onboarding new developer (hmm, how many of us very well connect with this statement), even after 4 weeks - still missing some permissions

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Markus Lauttia09:05:56

we have an unofficial goal that a new developer should make his first commit PR on the second working day.

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:04

Excellent, I have mission - 3 day to do PROD deployment

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)10:05:40

Talk to me later @lbmkrishna. Also Dharmesh Gordhan back at BNZ.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:50

This is a great topic for more discussion. Let us know where you continue... maybe we can get a new channel set up? @alex or a suggestion of a better way to greate topic groups that persist...

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff10:05:39

Great idea @nickeggleston - what should we call the channel?

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)10:05:10

I once wrote an internal paper on how much it cost to replace an engineer. A very conservative estimate was AU$100K, probably more but it was harder to quantify. It's more efficient to keep your hearts & minds than to get a new one, no matter how fast it is to prod.

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:36

@matthew.cobby - Few individuals like us we are still fighting for that "freedom" - we are yet to get liberate mate

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:23

I just love the background, the clothing rack in it's natural jungle environment ๐Ÿ˜‚

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jakob knutsson12:05:08

haha - thanks :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:46

@lbmkrishna This was one of my โ€œfavoriteโ€ parts in the Unicorn Project โ€”ย engineers quitting before they were ever onboarded, contractors on-site for months, still unable to get access to things they need.

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:40

Maxine - oh poor Maxine ๐Ÿ™‚

Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)09:05:47

Still day-to-day business in some companies ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:26

Since almost two years The Unicorn Project - The developer onboarding is still the same ๐Ÿ™‚

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:52

@genek what real world examples were the inspiration for this? (redacting names as necessary)

Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:54

"The number of deployments is a true competitive advantage". Nice!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:18

Patterns and practices, nice

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:18

A channel for engineers called โ€œabsolutelynoideaโ€!!! So freaking awesome! ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Adrienne Shulman09:05:09

๐Ÿ’ฏ creates psychological safety !! helps normalize "i dont know, but let's find out"

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Luke Rettig - Target09:05:13

now that our Slack is for our entire enterprise, not just Tech, I wonder what kind of questions would get posted now :thinking_face:

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)10:05:32

We have one called "I'm looking for..."

Vlad Ukis09:05:24

#absolutelynoidea - cool ๐Ÿ™‚

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff10:05:21

#absolutelynoidea now live!

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:33

Mhm curious how these bubbles were actually broken down into the teams @jakob.knutsson657? I've seen slides like that a lot and found that the actions after are much more exciting ๐Ÿ™‚

jakob knutsson13:05:43

Hi @philipp.boeschen650 which bubbles are you referring to?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:02

"agile islands grow"

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:09

โ€œ159 posts, 729 replies, 220+ mentions in #absolutelynoideaโ€ โ€”ย what a marvelous way to model a learning culture!!

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Vlad Ukis09:05:46

I would like to create this channel here

Vlad Ukis09:05:53

Seems like I do not have the rights

Vlad Ukis09:05:00

Can someone pls create it?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:15

I find it takes a huge amount of time for people to get comfortable โ€œworking in publicโ€, to ask questions and interact in a shared channel.

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jakob knutsson09:05:29

So true! But when they do - magic happens!

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Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting09:05:35

Exactly, I think it's worth striving for this kind of safety in a team.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:09

I find it common for people to keep splintering off into private channels because โ€œwe donโ€™t want to spam peopleโ€.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:52

Agreed, I find myself thinking that way and not wanting to bother the large community with questions that may be obvious or already answered elsewhere.

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Kim Wallis10:05:32

A good setup for messaging applications helps a lot with that. For example in Slack: having specific channels for asking about help on a certain topic, having channels with very specific topics for discussion, and always encouraging people to use threads to keep the spam in the "main" channel low.

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Rebecca Woof, Redgate (she/her)09:05:27

Love a shared space for knowledge sharing! Anyone have a bookclub at their orgs?

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Adrienne Shulman09:05:03

formal no but we have done informal / ad hoc bookclubs

Chris Shuknecht09:05:36

Yup. We started with Accelerate and now are currently reading Agile Conversations.

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)09:05:43

currently in the process of setting one up.

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Rebecca Woof, Redgate (she/her)09:05:24

Yes, similar to Adrienne! Started adhoc/informal

Rebecca Woof, Redgate (she/her)09:05:34

@eazyd247 what's the first book/report on your list?

Vlad Ukis09:05:06

Yes, we have a book club in the org.

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)09:05:53

@becky.woof at the moment we've got as far as assemble the group (not many at the moment but think thats a good thing). Then to get everyone to nominate a book, a reason why we should look at it and then we vote on it. My preference probably would be for Accelerate, project to product or Unicorn project. So many to choose from now ๐Ÿ™‚

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Chris Shuknecht09:05:10

We started with a similar process as @eazyd247 mentioned. We found we started with about 10% engagement from our department. I'd like to find ways of including more individuals from across our company in the future though.

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)09:05:07

have you had much issue keeping the momentum, people keeping up with the reading and the attendance?

Chris Shuknecht09:05:54

We did notice that in the first one. I feel like that is somewhat to be expected. We did a retro exercise after that one to attempt to make things better for the current (second one).

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Rebecca Woof, Redgate (she/her)09:05:59

We found that even if we had a small group, we could share our high-level findings more widely (on slack, or wider departmental syncs)- just bite-sized points. A few more people got involved that way!

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys09:05:37

#absolutelynoidea - How do you keep useful content floating to the top without drowning in new questions/noise?

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jakob knutsson09:05:15

Useful content become articles, guardrails or patterns!

Grant Robertson - Synopsys09:05:49

Is this naturally promoted or is there a specific team/person behind that?

jakob knutsson12:05:06

We have appointed topic owners in the community, examples could be around API & Events or Cloud. They are monitoring the chat-channels and also update articles, patterns & practices. But then the community also step in and answers and make suggested changes based on their inputs.

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)09:05:41

@jakob.knutsson657 - how did you know that the culture had shifted in the right direction, especially among senior leaders?

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Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)09:05:41

definitely interested in this one too. Great question

jakob knutsson12:05:56

I think when we could prove actual value was a first. But it's a long and gradual journey. Then more studies, science and success stories around devops / cloud also emerged. We also had some leaders believing in the "new" ideas.

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)14:05:20

Thanks @jakob.knutsson657!

Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:26

How do assure people have slack to work on community topics?

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jakob knutsson09:05:15

We make it part of the Definition of done, to hsare the work with the community.

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:06

On what level? Each story? Which community? Topic specific?

Grant Robertson - Synopsys09:05:21

On the idea of slack this is a great post about it https://fs.blog/2021/05/slack/ Many roles become less effective the more efficient their time is managed

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:25

It is not that I am not aware of this bu tin many cases the situation is pretty complex. I wrote a piece about it actually: https://rruzitschka.medium.com/the-challenge-of-internal-communities-in-an-enterprise-it-organization-fbe198b1f0e4

jakob knutsson12:05:35

We have appointed topic owners in the community, examples could be around API & Events or Cloud. They are monitoring the chat-channels and also update articles, patterns & practices. But then the community also step in and answers and make suggested changes based on their inputs.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:29

I love that quote from @jakob.knutsson657 about @daniel.claesson observing how productive it was when the merchandiser sat next to the developer, instead of being put between two departments. So good.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:52

"Business is Tech and Tech is Business"

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Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)09:05:59

Like the naming of "Business Tech" to make it visible to everyone

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David Read09:05:38

@jakob.knutsson657 said H&M is still a fashion business, not a tech business

Chris09:05:48

Always surprised/shocked when discussing outside of the company, people telling me you're quite knowledgeable on the business, and you work in tech? Is it supposed to be mutually exclusive?

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:16

IMHO - more & more Enterprises still in this fix - anything and everything slow. Some end up to whitelist URLs/ IP address for developer tools to access required updates

Luke Rettig - Target09:05:25

@jakob.knutsson657 and @daniel.claesson you mentioned that Product teams were formed around unique business problems. Has that created any challenges on the same users needing to interact with multiple product teams?

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Marco Delgado [Ocado Technology, Engineering Practice Lead]09:05:42

@jakob.knutsson657 How do you balance aligned autonomy? Allowing teams to be fully autonomous in their ability to make decisions to get value VS following standards and keeping on the foundation you touched on?

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jakob knutsson09:05:38

Clear objectives and direction.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:48

DevOps --> BusTech < endgame

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Vlad Ukis09:05:04

Can you pls clarify what that means?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:04

DevOps was about bridging silos, collaborating at a larger scale. Continuing that trend is getting collaboration across the silos of business and technology. So H&M creating a โ€œBusiness Techโ€ group seemed like the end state of where the ever expanding collaboration takes us. That make sense @vladyslav.ukis?

Vlad Ukis10:05:17

Understood. Thanks!

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:24

We are not here just to serve "The Business"

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:54

โ€ฆbecause itโ€™s all our business.

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)09:05:00

We are the business

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Luke Rettig - Target09:05:25

and our business serves our customers

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:23

We collectively serve our customers

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:21

I love all these statements: โ€œdonโ€™t be a service department,โ€ โ€œtechnology must be embedded into our DNAโ€.

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Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:05:28

+100 to "biz understands tech better and tech to understand biz better" @daniel.claesson

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Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:05:02

BTW, how you found the balance what to learn on both sides to raise that understanding to the next level?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:44

Thank you @jakob.knutsson657 and @daniel.claesson!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:47

๐Ÿ‘‹

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:51

Thank you!

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Meda Psibilskyte09:05:59

Great talk! Thanks for sharing your story

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:13

Great stuff!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:05:30

We now welcome @lucasc5 and @lewir7!

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Adrian (Tasktop)09:05:50

great talk @jakob.knutsson657 and @daniel.claesson!! Thanks for sharing!

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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)09:05:56

Great talk. Thank you for sharing @daniel.claesson and @jakob.knutsson657

Gillian Nieboer09:05:08

Nice, thank you for sharing @jakob.knutsson657 ๐Ÿ™Œ:skin-tone-2:

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:55

I really enjoyed the auditor talks from that year. It helped me understand their perspective and partner better with Audit internally. We even initiated a value stream analysis to get audit more integrated and automated into the process.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:26

How did they get back in here again?

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jmed10:05:33

great description of the journey @jakob.knutsson657 & @daniel.claesson!

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:33

Ahhhhh!!! ๐Ÿ˜‚ Who let them in?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:36

โ€œOh, no. Not the auditors. What are THEY doing here?โ€ ๐Ÿ˜‚ โ€œI hear they get paid by the findingโ€ ๐Ÿ˜‚. @lucasc5

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:21

the โ€œpaid by the findingโ€ comment had me laughing out loud.

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:33

reminds me of the stories of testers being paid by the number of bugs they foundโ€ฆ and developers by the number of bugs they closed.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:45

I love stories about perverse incentives

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:07

Wait. There were some QA shops that were bonused on # of defects found, right? After all, if they donโ€™t find anything, what are they doing all day? ๐Ÿ™‚

Andrew Salt - ScholarPack10:05:57

Itโ€™s the Spanish inquisition ๐Ÿ˜

Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting10:05:19

Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:10

I hope they didnโ€™t bring the comfy chair!

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:27

Mythbusters for roles, might just be a good series of videos :thinking_face:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:32

Iโ€™m not sure how many of you noticed, but I have a copy of Montgomeryโ€™s Auditing on the top shelf on my bookshelf. I definitely donโ€™t recommend buying this, unless you are studying to become an auditor. ๐Ÿ™‚ https://www.amazon.com/Montgomerys-Auditing-Vincent-M-OReilly/dp/0471140635/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&amp;keywords=montgomery+auditing&amp;qid=1621418506&amp;sr=8-6

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:58

I won't put that on the reading list from the conference ๐Ÿ˜‚

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:22

Then again, it might just be interesting to read anyway :thinking_face:

Philip Day10:05:35

I noticed strategic placement of The Phoenix Project and The Unicorn just outside each shoulder ๐Ÿ™‚

Rmunwin10:05:53

Well an auditor would say that, then you don't know they're getting paid by the finding ๐Ÿ˜‚ I should say, I've never had an issue with an auditor, they've always been very helpful.

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David Read10:05:20

Can someone explain what auditors look into? Is this just a financial thing?

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:51

Could be but also think GDPR or anything relating to data privacy

Chris Shuknecht10:05:11

Could be legal compliance as well (depending on industry)

Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)10:05:14

@david.read There are InfoSec or Compliance Audits as well

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:16

Good question, they look into so many things. Depends on the industry as well

Chris10:05:16

Or any compliance, thinking PCI DSS for instance

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:28

We also run open source audits at Synopsys so it can really mean anything

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:37

could be regulatory, compliance, risk, governance / GRC

Leanne Bridges10:05:37

Audit can apply to anything that a business may want assurance of..

Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)10:05:40

Basically any part of dev or business that requires or comes with an external ruleset can be audited

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:51

Internal Auditors look into risks that could prevent an organization from achieving its objectives. Those can be financial risks, compliance risks, operational risks...

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:28

i.e. if theres risks there an audit for it

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:42

Tune into our break-out session tomorrow (DevOps and Audit: A Great Partnership Part 2). We'll briefly review Internal Audit's role in an organization

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:56

@lucasc5 - one thing that I hate - when we ask developer to fill and answer the risk control Excel spread sheet ๐Ÿ™‚

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:03

@lbmkrishna - I'm cringing right now ๐Ÿ˜† That's how we as auditors get a bad rep.

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:34

Everyone hates spreadsheets right? ๐Ÿ˜•

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:45

I see that manager easily delegate to Developers / Engineers

Leanne Bridges10:05:28

I noticed that on your shelf @genek101 - glad to see it's part of your regular reading ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:13

Iโ€™d love to see those penalty flags @lucasc5!

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:19

It's in the office waiting for me when I return to in-person meetings :)

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:18

Turn the Ship Around has a great approach to this called, โ€œEmbrace the Inspectorsโ€: > Embrace the inspectors turned out to be an incredibly powerful vehicle for learning. Whenever an inspection team was onboard, I would hear crew members saying things like, โ€œIโ€™ve been having a problem with this. What have you seen other ships do to solve it?โ€ Most inspection teams found this attitude remarkable. As a result, Santa Fe was getting superior grades on inspections. https://davidmarquet.com/turn-the-ship-around-book/

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:20

i love this book for so many reasons, but had forgotten that topic was in there. one more reason to love it.

Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:14

Yeah it was a real gem of a concept and I found it helped in a huge way with our most recent audit, which we PASSED by the way! After 2 failed audits, we were really proud of it.

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:32

I have to say my experience with auditors has generally also been good. Theyโ€™ve also been generally open to new approaches as long as you can explain how the approach meets the outcomes/standards/regulations theyโ€™re checking against.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:07

โ€œNow letโ€™s talk about your relationship with YOUR auditors.โ€ @lewir7 ๐Ÿ™‚

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:07

I feel like this conversation will require a reclining couch. ๐Ÿ˜‚

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:26

What's your view on Audits being the first step towards DevOps? A good audit can set goals and highlight gaps

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:51

Internal Audit can definitely shed light on areas that need improvement. Management can definitely leverage that as an opportunity to implement DevOps practices to address those gaps. Great idea!

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant10:05:29

@lucasc5 i respect you busting these myths but I have seen some of these happen unfortunately, And some of these issues, internal IT auditors on my team acknowledge. I really wish it was not like it though. I have been working with auditors for external audits for 3 years. And some of these myths were challenges. Thankfully we managed to work our way through by really trying to understand why is it that we are doing this audit thing. But then it made sense. What really helped me get it all was http://dearauditor.org/.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant10:05:55

I found some of it to be a training issue with how they were inducted in the industry

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:58

When leading change, it's a good idea to ensure that internal or external audit are your best friend from day one! Auditors will either 'encourage' teams into better ways of working, or keep teams back in a theatre of control. Very few people argue with an audit point! Internal audit have been a huge lever for good in my experience

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant10:05:28

I do find a massive communication gap in this success though.

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant10:05:39

IT leaders and managers dont want to understand purpose of audits

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant10:05:21

Auditors for some reason also fail to explain this well. This is probably also not encouraged fully by the larger audit firms that larger companies end up working with

Luke Rettig - Target10:05:28

Audit consulting as part of your TDDโ€ฆ love it

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Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting10:05:48

@lucasc5 @lewir7 My experience with auditors was absolutely positive so far. I am very interested in how GitOps is seen by auditors. I would love to get a chance to discuss about this topic with you.

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Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:11

Check out our break-out talk tomorrow (DevOps and Internal Audit: A Great Partnership Part 2). We may address your question in greater detail there. If not, I'd love to get more insight from you on how we can address it.

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)10:05:10

@genek is a Team Auditor superfan!

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)10:05:04

Oh, I saw that. Just thought youโ€™d enjoy this view as well.

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Neil Kalinowski10:05:24

Are those books organized by color colour (<- since we are in London)?

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Andy Sturrock10:05:52

Audit is like anything else - shift it left! Get the audit team engaged at the start rather than the end.

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Gianluca Manzi10:05:49

Get also the Dev team understand the controls early on as requirements ๐Ÿ™‚

Andy Sturrock10:05:13

exactly. Then you can start to do things like compliance-as-code.

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Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:55

Tune in to our break-out session tomorrow (DevOps and Internal Audit: A Great Partnership Part 2). We talk about some of the ways we're shifting left :)

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David Sampimon (ING)10:05:36

What happens when everything is shifted left? ๐Ÿ˜‰

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:03

Haha! And thereโ€™s a copy of the Institute of Internal Auditors Professional Practices Framework book among the red books. ๐Ÿ™‚ (I should have hung my ISACA CISA certification up, too. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:50

We anchor back to the IIA Standards/red book! :)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:15

PS: I learned last year from @lucasc5 that thereโ€™s no actual physical โ€œred bookโ€ anymore. ๐Ÿ™‚ Thank you again so much for the talk โ€”ย you, too, @lewir7

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:14

It was our pleasure! Thank you for giving us a platform.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:08

โ€œStay safeโ€ < spoken like an auditor. ๐Ÿ˜ธ

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:30

Brilliant as usual @lucasc5 - much more relaxed than "Audit" finding interview ๐Ÿ™‚

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:33

โ€œand may your findings not be material.โ€ ๐Ÿ™‚

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:40

Thanks @lucasc5 and @lewir7! That was fantastic, going to show this to my auditor BFFโ€™s! They will love it.

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Tim Wyatt10:05:58

@andrew.sturrock Yes, totally agree. It falls into the same set as "we're not going to tell you what we're going to test otherwise we won't find any bugs"

Gianluca Manzi10:05:35

Agree, transparency also on the controls and test...:-)

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:12

@tim.wyatt - hearing that breaks my heart! We hate surprising our clients. If my client's are surprised at the end of an audit, I didn't do my job very well.

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:25

@genek @jeff.gallimore - we need more of this Audit / GRC "eye opening sessions"

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:13

Huh! Iโ€™m noticing that everyone are especially loving these โ€œboundary spanningโ€ talks?

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:40

I think it comes down to a similar effect like when you're having cross functional teams, more viewpoints mean overall better coverage

Luke Rettig - Target10:05:44

i think they resonate and help us story tell that DevOps isnt just a tech problem. I noticed a lot of questions/interest during the P&G talk about getting the Biz Leadership on board. I think these boundary spanning really help our brains firm things up

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:48

:thumbsup: Yโ€™all are going to love some of the talks coming up, then! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)10:05:29

Thank you @lucasc5 and @lewir7. I will try to keep that in mind the next time i talk to our auditors

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:50

@lucasc5 @lewir7 - The issues I see is that in the name of "Audit" - we over engineer things in an Enterprise (not by auditors though)

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Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance10:05:16

We see this a lot too. I visually cringe when someone tells me they're doing something because audit told them to. Either we didn't explain well enough why the gap was important, or it wasn't truly a risk. In the past few years, we added a scorecard metric for ourselves to encourage us to identify cost savings and efficiency opportunities. That helps with some of the overengineering too.

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:05:42

Coming up in a few minutes: @leanne.bridges and @mark.rendell from Nationwide Building Society!

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:39

I think a key point to think about with audits is remembering why your doing them? If they provide some problem areas and you don't act on them what the point of doing it the first place. Its like everything you need to view it as the beginning of the process not the end lets stop doing checkbox exercises

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Chris10:05:00

Start with why as would S. Sinek say (but not only), you'll get more buy in when people understand why they're asked to do things, and knowing it from start rather than as a gate at the end, would certainly to better results and less reworks and better image of the audit. Looks quite similar to security which can either be seen as enabler and bringing value or just as a blocker breaking plannings

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:31

100% I and many others can't invest in doing something if we don't understand why or we're doing it. Filling in a spreadsheet because Legal say so isn't good enough

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:12

Security in DevOps is to prevent problems down the line no developer likes being called in to help fix P1 issues or similar but by following good security practices they could prevent future pain thats worth a little effort now to avoid future pain

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect10:05:12

One other common issue between Engineers and Auditor - The language / terms that we use

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:14

Most auditors make an attempt to use neutral language but legalize and developer shorthand are problems for both groups

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:04

TLAs don't help have you ever counted how many acronyms you use in your org/team daily/weekly

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:09

Thoughts on the 5m break? ๐Ÿ™‚ :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown:

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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)10:05:00

Too short tbh. I would have liked 10 mins better.

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead10:05:23

The relationship of engineering teams with audits and regulatory requirements definitely is a thorny one. It is not so easy sometimes to convince teams that these things are necessary - otherwise you will be out of business. On the other hand it needs to be understood that implementations of regulatory requirements can be done in many cases in way that they don't impede flow. This can be achieved with close cooperation between risk/auditing and engineering teams. But my experience is that in many cases engineers just don't want to be bothered.

Vlad Ukis10:05:14

and the teams are bothered too much by cumbersome tooling that must be used to fulfil the regulations

Leanne Bridges10:05:49

you might like the next session....

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:21

My view is that its also important to understand why the regulation exist look at the UK and USA talking about cyber crime and IoT security its being discussed and talked about because its a problem. I'd always suggest people use regulation as the organization stick to implement good changes. Don't worry about the exact specific but make sure your doing what right for your team/product

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead10:05:04

Fully agree to this @robertso: Why is always super important. My main issue was that in my experience engineers embrace freedom and hate regulation like the plague.

Vlad Ukis10:05:40

Yes, because it adds burdned often without good reasoning

Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead10:05:01

@vladyslav.ukis Being able to satisfy regulatory requirements is a reason as good as it gets. It is non negotiable. But of course it needs to be explained.

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:02

Regulation very rarely wants to limit innovation or freedom but encourage best practices. Regulations can be interpreted in a million different ways and I've worked with orgs who take the very strict approach vs the more open model. Its about understand what problem the regulation is trying to solve look at the key recommendations and implement those how they make the most sense for you.

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Vlad Ukis10:05:43

Join #absolutelynoidea now!

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Steve Spear10:05:39

@annp Hi. I answerd in our other channel about meeting with Mik. QUESTION: Whatโ€™s the link to watch live?

Steve Spear10:05:03

Hi Gene. Am I in the right place. I think so. Intelligent control guy right before Richardson?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:05:22

You're in the exact right place!

Steve Spear10:05:37

Thank you @annp !

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:31

Hi @leanne.bridges and @mark.rendell!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:38

And speaking of audit and compliance, hereโ€™s another talk on achieving compliance objectives from @leanne.bridges and @mark.rendell (who apparently now works with compliance people all the time. ๐Ÿ™‚

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mark rendell10:05:50

Hi everyone

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:58

Ninjas dressed in black ๐Ÿ™‚

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Leanne Bridges10:05:13

Hey @jonathansmart1 - nice to see you

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff10:05:35

H&amp;M Group โ€“ Integrating Business and Tech with @daniel.claesson & @jakob.knutsson657 is live in the Video Library! https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641791 From Your Auditor Friends: What We Wish Every Technology Leader Knew with @lucasc5 & @lewir7 is live in the Video Library! https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641804

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:52

@leanne.bridges - helping colleagues build good things โค๏ธ

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:51

"creativity loves constraints"

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Chris10:05:34

Or constraints stimulate creativity ๐Ÿ™‚

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:24

the do, but naive creatives temperamentally seem to dislike them

Leanne Bridges10:05:57

For me it's the critical thing @richard.james - if we don't work together, it's almost anti-value

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:04

You've already had a couple of absolutely GOLD quotes in here mate - I'm going back through and stealing shamelessly to use "back at the ranch" on posters with your face on ๐Ÿ™‚

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Leanne Bridges11:05:02

I'll look out for those.... :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:21

โ€œteams encouraged by controlsโ€ ๐Ÿคฏ

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:09

I still like Mark Schwartz language around 'enabling' rather than 'corrosive' controls - this is the agenda for me ๐Ÿ™‚

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:13

indeed. his perspective that a CI/CD pipeline is simply an โ€œautomated bureaucracyโ€ (full of rules and controls) blew my mind.

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:13

Totally that - we are using this language/phraseology directly with @mark.rendell and @leanne.bridges here - 'enabling and embedded controls'

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Leanne Bridges11:05:30

'automated bureaucracy' is worse than 'manual bureaucracy' if a control doesn't add value, we shouldn't operate it at all..

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:31

Safe autonomy is something I've seen more and more :thinking_face:

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Chris10:05:36

Creating an environment where teams practicing devops can thrive ๐Ÿ‘

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:00

"accountable freedom" - love it. Good morning from New York ๐Ÿ˜„

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Chris Shuknecht10:05:25

I can't wait to use this phrase!

Leanne Bridges10:05:39

Good Morning @katharine.chajka... we're aiming to find the balance for 'safety + agility'. We've learned that fewer, easier to understand parameters enable folk to work with autonomy

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:48

It's actually the name of Leanne, Mark and my home Community back at Nationwide - Resilience &amp; Agility

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:50

I loved this from @mark.rendell - when he shared the idea of "agile adolescents", I hung my head in shame and self-recognition โค๏ธ ๐Ÿ˜„

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:51

โ€œDevOps people are like teenagers; love to challenge status quo; but they have live services, and guardians have thankless task. Theyโ€™re morally and legally responsible, but need to enable autonomy.โ€ So good, @mark.rendell!

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:30

I feel seen :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: Very much like a teen sometimes in what I want to do...

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:56

I almost just spit out my coffee haha!!!

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Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)10:05:01

Organize like an engineer; lead like a parent

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:56

I mean the most common whiteboard guard rail is the note to check if you're using permanent markers ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:04

Made that mistake at a public sector client. Visited again a few months later, scribbles were still on the board ๐Ÿ˜Š

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Chris10:05:27

In that case @jonathansmart1 was probably a good thing. If you once come at our place, I'll make sure you have only permanent markers ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:03

The "traceability for those accountable" bit is so crucial! Big thing to consider when creating boundaries

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Leanne Bridges10:05:48

I think it's critical. We apply a bit of a 'forensic' approach to understand how we'd review the outcome before we build it.

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:44

We're in the process of learning this the hard way, lots of policies got put in place without any effort into traceability, they are definitely creating pain down the line now

Leanne Bridges11:05:15

I feel your pain @philipp.boeschen650 sometimes policies are created like sticking plasters... if you've too much ambiguity from the policy layer, the control tier becomes un-workable. Reach out if you wanted to explore further on that one..

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:20

In all seriousness, I love how auditors (and lawyers) talk about โ€œrelianceโ€ โ€”ย http://i.e.inare reliant upon a given control (from โ€œnot at allโ€ to โ€œentirely reliant โ€”ย if that control fails, you are actually sunk.โ€œ)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:50

This was one of the most illuminating learnings from audit for me. cc @lucasc5 @leanne.bridges @lewir7 @mark.rendell

Leanne Bridges10:05:01

It's especially important when things go really wrong... it's also usually where you end up with 'over control' (often in reaction to a previous 'really bad' situation).

Andy Hinton10:05:26

That's a tough one. I don't want teams doing unnecessary, over control activities. However, being able to find and rely upon a backup control when the primary one fails has saved us in an external audit. Layers of control, defense in depth, can be nice to have.

Leanne Bridges11:05:49

I'm glad that you've seen the value of this @andy.hinton - it's solid learning when you go through those processes and realised the value of what might otherwise be seen as burdensome

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Andy Hinton10:05:40

Today I learned that I'm a guardian of a teenager. Suddenly, my interactions with our Engineers make so much more sense. ๐Ÿ˜†

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:25

Shouldn't risk be assessed right up front, when one knows the least about what one is building? :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:34

Someone (@jonathansmart1) has a chapter in a well-loved book dedicated to that particularly anti-pattern ๐Ÿ˜„

Andy Hinton10:05:11

I know you posted this in jest, but risk should be assessed up front and should be updated as you learn more.

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Leanne Bridges10:05:34

we continuously adjust the risk profile created early on, the the product evolves, the risk evolves and we can apply controls proportionate to that point in time..

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:32

"Fully Informed up Front. Build the right thing the right way" - love it

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Leanne Bridges10:05:32

it makes the world of difference... you know what you're getting into before you get going.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:55

how to bring people together seems like a consistent theme ๐Ÿ™‚

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John Ryan10:05:21

@mark.rendell @leanne.bridges I'm a colleague of @jonathansmart1 your Intelligent Control presentation is brilliant. May I get a copy? cheers, John

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mark rendell10:05:08

Thanks @jlpryan - certainly!

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Leanne Bridges10:05:54

we'd be delighted to share ๐Ÿ™‚

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:57

(wanting a copy -- I can't claim to be a colleague of @jonathansmart1)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:02

Theyโ€™ll also be in the Video Library โ€”ย @alex will be posting it shortly.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:38

"build the right thing and build the thing right" - control stories and understanding why you needed them in the first place - "why" is so often lost!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:05:03

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:12

You can really see the whole traceability thing pulled through the entire process now ๐Ÿคฏ So good

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Leanne Bridges10:05:52

if there's value in doing this work it's to enable traceability; creating the data that tells the story of how and why the product was built makes a huge difference when you're trying to provide any kind of assurance..

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:09

(Iโ€™m not quite sure I understand @leanne.bridgesโ€™s motivation of doing all this โ€”ย doesnโ€™t she get paid less if the product teams get fewer findings? ๐Ÿ™‚

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Chris10:05:27

๐Ÿ˜‚ Maybe some informed executive could find out she makes more value for the business and the product team less miserable? Hypothesis... ๐Ÿ™‚

Leanne Bridges11:05:22

Hi @genek101 and @christian.lefevre - I always say that I need to 'do myself out of a job'. When an organisation has achieved 'control by design' and operates continuous assurance, you don't need as many people like me telling you whether you need to worry - because you understand the risk inherent in your own work... So weirdly, my personal objective is to enable lasting change that supports continuous improvement for an organisation.... but I'm a problem solver so guessing that's where this becomes rewarding for me..

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:23

Oh Thoughtspot, interesting haven't seen that around a lot! How's that working for you @leanne.bridges?

Leanne Bridges10:05:06

it works really well. We wanted to ensure we were 'system agnostic' and flexible in terms of the data we could pool. Thoughtspot enables us that 'layer' that we can adjust based on the depth of data available to inform that 'real-time' view

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:09

Think Tableau with a google search like engine for your data underneath, it's some pretty interesting tech https://www.thoughtspot.com/

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:14

We use ThoughtSpot in a number of ways to support our BVSSH journey - @zsolt.berend and @marc.price can give the 'inside track' on how we leverage to support measurement/visualisation of flow, golden thread and embedded control ๐Ÿ™‚

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:18

Oh interesting! What's BVSSH tho :thinking_face:

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:59

Hehe another thing to note for future investigation

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead10:05:29

Bring Value Sooner Safer Happier - Super book by @jonathansmart1

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:08

Right, yeah ๐Ÿ™‚ Heard of it it's still on my shelf to be read... so many books so little time

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zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)10:05:22

T/S provides a rich front-end, it is great for self-serve data, insights consumption

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:16

Have you seen benefit in the self service aspect, do people actually actively explore the dataset? We never got to a big enough PoC to find data for that

zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)10:05:22

yes, they do - we treated our dashboard as a product from the beginning. Start-up way, started small with some innovators, early adaptors as customers, establishing feedback loop. Now we have 700+ active customers, colleagues at all level, all based on pull.

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zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)10:05:12

it has been a journey to unlocking measurability and through conversations unlearning fear of data, and experts providing reports to measure for learning behavioural

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:32

That is super cool! Did you face any problems getting your data into the right shape underneath? Thanks for answering these! ๐Ÿ™‚

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zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)10:05:04

yes, we did, we pull data from jira and snow and e1 - and cont. improving the data models for more flexible insights creations. However it has also been the goal to keep it as agnostic to ways of working as possible so e.g. there is no mandate on using a set of states (it would be an antipattern as context is unique so flow of work will differ) so we made lead time calcs. e.g. agnostic

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Leanne Bridges10:05:38

Something of note here; weโ€™re in the process of migrating to dashboards for our Data and Analytics Value Streams. The Intent is that this will supersede our need to โ€˜reportโ€™ on risk and move toward use of real data to inform the risk positioโ€ฆ

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Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)11:05:07

more than happy to give a view of Thoughtspot if anyone would be interested ๐Ÿ™‚

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:07

What you can see btw is the absolute chance (need) to increase capability in the organisation - look at the techniques, tools and principles that underpin the integrated, enabling and 'always on' controls โค๏ธ

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Tim B10:05:37

@leanne.bridges - are the dashboards also automated?

mark rendell10:05:33

Yes @tim.bassett and Metrics and Insights are a key part of our overall Ways of Working enabling function //cc @berendzs

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Leanne Bridges10:05:39

partially - where a control is automated or semi-automated, we can enable dynamic data.

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mark rendell10:05:28

Ah sorry, yes I meant the dashboards driven by Jira data. Those are automated.

Vlad Ukis10:05:45

What could not / cannot be automated?

Leanne Bridges11:05:23

Hi @vladyslav.ukis sometimes a control is manual (i.e. that decision needs to be made at that tier of committee to ensure that it's within governance' so you end recording that the event happened and logging associated documents to support the execution of the control. That help?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:02

โ€œthis is helpful when you have legal proceedings.โ€ (Everyone stops laughing.)

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Andy Hinton10:05:47

Well that escalated quickly ๐Ÿ˜†

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:52

โ€œwhen risk people show up, everyone gets the shivers.โ€ ๐Ÿ™‚

Leanne Bridges10:05:21

those are the days when you're really grateful for how you made records of the build....

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:48

Iโ€™m sure I wouldnโ€™t know. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:21

Iโ€™ll have to ask one of my friends if they can relate. ๐Ÿ™‚

zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)10:05:25

@leanne.bridges I love how this is driving more collaboration and engagement

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Leanne Bridges10:05:20

HEy @berendzs - glad you're here... @philipp.boeschen650 had a Q on ThoughtSpot... you'll be able to enrich that thread with your mega-knowledge..

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Leanne Bridges10:05:03

Also @tim.bassett was interested too... maybe we need a session on data-centric controls assurance informing risk??

Tim B10:05:02

yes - our problem is that we want to automate "stuff" but people forget about dashboards.....we have agility metrics under control (sort of - v1 at least), however we are now gathering metrics for other "stuff" - but manually. Always interesting to see how others do it...

Tim B10:05:27

one of "my things" is reporting/data should fall out of the process and not be additional work....

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:40

Yeah we were at a similar point when we played with it, but the price point was just too high for us to get enough ROI

Tim B10:05:59

yes, I fear Excel wins out - although Jira/ADO etc do provide basic reporting

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:55

The whole, metrics should just fall out, that seems to be hard to create though, is there something special you're doing towards data schemas or when collecting data to get it more "in line"?

Leanne Bridges11:05:56

Hi... this bit is the bit that is often overlooked... I say (almost everyday) that we have to build the data that enables us to measure. The key here is JIRA because we can get a status for manual, semi-automated or automated controls as a data point that we can add to dashboards. This is how we're able to then streamline the assurance (if we don't enable this data creation, we end up doing the work twice)

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:24

"I say (almost everyday) that we have to build the data that enables us to measure." I think that's the key thing that needs to be driven from the top, I've unfortunately been in some positions were we never got time or resources to build proper data foundations and then got pushed to deliver, deliver, deliver which never worked out as people thought...

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Leanne Bridges11:05:24

@philipp.boeschen650 -a large part of my career was spent in the Public Sector focussed on maximising value for the money we invested. One of my personal aims is to achieve as much of this as possible with existing enterprise licensed tooling minimising investment. Much of our 'build' is driven through internal enthusiasm rather than investment and we're currently experimenting with Power BI as it's within our Teams licensing and is widely available. This should cost less than the alternative.

Leanne Bridges11:05:48

@tim.bassett ref excel.... we're experimenting with Power BI/Power Platform in Teams for increased availability..

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:12

Yeah I do think sometimes, especially we as engineers, tend to want to re-develop rather than using existing stuff - Trying to get ahead of that problem seems like a very good use of time! ๐Ÿ’ฏ

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:35

Hey @berendzs - a lot of love for the Thoughtspot work from yourself and @marc.price - deffo a topic for the next DOES ๐Ÿ˜„

๐Ÿ™Œ 3
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zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)10:05:56

we would be happy to present ๐Ÿ™‚ next time

Leanne Bridges10:05:48

the work that @berendzs and @marc.price have done on metrics is awesome

๐Ÿ™ 2
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:57

Nice Whac-A-Mole image ๐Ÿ™‚

1
Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)10:05:10

Invite over Inflict - love it

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Leanne Bridges10:05:50

full credit on that one to @jonathansmart1

mark rendell10:05:21

Huge credit to @leanne.bridges with their show and tells. The open invitations to those regularly attract a very diverse and senior group of people - and not just to observe - loads of ideas flowing :)

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Leanne Bridges11:05:45

the best thing about those @mark.rendell is how much we get out of it too ๐Ÿ™‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:12

"pulling the work into one place [JIRA stories] improved visibility [of control work]". Work is where the work is, rather than in 20 spreadsheets.

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:13

"invite over inflict" from Intelligent Control - that is the future stance of compliance and control

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Leanne Bridges10:05:31

we align risk people to the work.. once the risk assessment is complete and thereafter continuous, we align a risk partner to be the persistent and primary point of contact... They'll bring in any additional specialist risk support to ensure that the depth and breadth of risk is understood and the right control stories are surfaced

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:47

yes on the empowerment - take the time to support, can't flip a switch!

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John Ryan10:05:50

"Invite" over "Inflict" approach @leanne.bridges

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:16

one of our absolute favourite adopted phrases from @jonathansmart1 โค๏ธ

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:45

used regularly by our Chief Operating Officer, as well as across our WoW community and colleagues ๐Ÿ™‚

Luke Rettig - Target10:05:49

this is the best example of BVSSH iโ€™ve seen @leanne.bridges! definitely making my gears turn on how to double down with my team

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:51

In addition to the great work done at Nationwide, see chapter 6 in Sooner Safer Happier, a chapter just on this topic.

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Luke Rettig - Target10:05:32

have read it more than once ๐Ÿ™‚

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Leanne Bridges11:05:09

That's great to hear - thankyou. I'd be happy to share more detail on anything specific..

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:55

"Empowerment can feel threatening". Yes, I've seen this, where people are given more empowerment and yet don't take it.

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Chris10:05:26

what can make it change a climate of psychological safety? Trust?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:47

@christian.lefevre Yes. A need to intentionally nurture psychological safety. As per Amy Edmondson, (1) Set the stage (2) Invite participation (3) Respond positively

Chris10:05:57

Thanks @jonathansmart1 Iโ€™m considering a dojo as well to help people train and gain confidence too, but shouldnโ€™t substitue to demonstrating trust by handing the keys of the real world too I guess.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:51

Yes, sounds good. And there needs to be safety to experiment and fail. If not, even with new knowledge, there will be no empowerment taken

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:29

I've quite often seen 'learned helplessness' with everyone shrugging their shoulders, pointing at someone or something else

Chris11:05:42

I like the idea of L David Marquet in turn the ship around, of having people declare intention and validating, I would guess such endorsement will reinforce confidence in taking the empowerment, which should transition to a stronger ownership tranforming the declaration of intention to informing. (kinda removing the small wheels to the bicycle)

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:10

@leanne.bridges - this reminds me of the idea of โ€œEnabling Bureaucracyโ€ from @schmarkโ€™s book, โ€œThe (delicate) Art of Bureaucracyโ€ ๐Ÿ˜‰ https://itrevolution.com/delicate-art-of-bureaucracy/

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RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:10

Totally this - we use Mark's language around "enabling bureaucracy" rather than "corrosive bureaucracy" in our context โค๏ธ

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Leanne Bridges10:05:18

definitely... it's just about getting the right balance

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:25

This part - "Intelligent Control" can have 'unintended consequences' of causing alienation for colleagues and existing work

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โœ”๏ธ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:29

โ€œIn some peopleโ€™s heads, we were calling their controls, or worse, them, unintelligent.โ€ ๐Ÿ˜† @mark.rendell

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David Read10:05:24

Personally, I'm very wary of anything that is described as 'intelligent' - it's usually to do with hubris of the inventor

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:51

The talk about replacing the word intelligent with control reminds me of this chrome plugin I've used in the past https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ai-just-some-if-statement/ihdinhfmngbefhhajfjankbpphnflfbd?hl=en

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David Read10:05:21

See also: SmartTVs (sigh), Smart Meters (sigh), Smart Home (๐Ÿ˜ฌ ), Smart Cities (๐Ÿ™ˆ )

Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:56

The word connected just isn't as sexy

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:44

Perhaps this is crazy, but I wish we had an "andon cord" to stop the video presentation while the discussion is ongoing on Slack... and then release the video to proceed when the discussion on the current point dies down.

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Steve Spear10:05:02

Perhaps โ€œcontrolโ€ can be phrased in terms of โ€œfeedback.โ€

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Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike10:05:11

@leanne.bridgesย @mark.rendellย How do you overcome the challenge to have a risk expert available when it is needed. How does the Risk CoE facilitate availability of Risk experts on the moment the Agile teams need them

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Leanne Bridges10:05:20

I answered up there but will repeat here: e align risk people to the work.. once the risk assessment is complete and thereafter continuous, we align a risk partner to be the persistent and primary point of contact... They'll bring in any additional specialist risk support to ensure that the depth and breadth of risk is understood and the right control stories are surfaced

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:18

Sounds a lot like the adjust support teams @jonathansmart1 talked about in his videos

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:09

@nickeggleston Safety Teams. Multidisciplinary GRC type SMEs aligned to value stream, long lived. e.g. InfoSec, Data Privacy, Compliance, Fraud, Anti Money Laundering, etc.

Leanne Bridges11:05:28

Agree @nickeggleston and as @jonathansmart1 highlights - having the right group of people, with the right capabilities makes the world of difference to how we build things

Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:27

We have been doing things around OPA for validating e.g. container images are safe to release to production

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant10:05:48

what kind of safety checks are you trying?

Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:41

the primary stuff right now is about validating that dependencies you put in approved/not marked as risk

mark rendell10:05:12

That's a great topic @gus.paul what we're doing with Intelligent Control is partly about tying together smart technology solutions like that with the formal official controls.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)10:05:28

Inner Source for your controls... have you had many contributions to those controls and are they for engineers or risk?

mark rendell10:05:09

That's a hot topic and work in progress @matthew.cobby Just last week the Data and Analytics community got Inner Source access so that they can make contributions!

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)10:05:24

Interesting.... I'd like to follow up and see how you are going. We have an Inner Source programme and one of our products is our compliance as code. It's been a sleeper so far but we have ambitions

mark rendell10:05:03

Sounds great @matthew.cobby

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:32

"living in a shared house"

Tim Wyatt10:05:32

There is a fundamental "industry" problem where everyone needs their "bit" in the DevOps portmanteau, how does that get solved?

RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:56

@jonathansmart1 references the 'narrow' (Tech) or 'broad' (Org) definitions of DevOps - we talk increasingly about how we are bringing Change and Run together as the broader agenda ๐Ÿ™‚

Tim Wyatt10:05:34

I need to read the book! I think the problem is that departments that are not mentioned are not included, so there needs to be a way of describing that inclusivity

Leanne Bridges10:05:38

my reference to the 'must do and the should do' is because that helps you work out who 'must' be in the room and who doesn't really need to be there... The other challenge though is having a trust environment where folk 'not in the room' are ok with that and trust their colleagues to bring them in if they need to be there.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:43

+1 empathy and focus on a shared goal

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Adrienne Shulman10:05:59

empathy and shared goals.... has anyone found a way to ctrl+c ctrl+v this everywhere? :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Steve Spear10:05:43

we create something based on our best understanding in the moment. That understanding has to be imperfect. Waht weโ€™re trying to do is get feedback early and often about what we didnโ€™t understand so we can correct and improve.

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Leanne Bridges10:05:30

definitely - by having a 'critical friend' in the room to answer the thorny questions - can help you go faster..

Steve Spear10:05:12

Maybe thatโ€™s the phrase? INTELLIGENT CORRECTION?

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)10:05:44

Theme coming out in many of the talks - by focusing on people and empowering people we save TIME

โค๏ธ 1
Leanne Bridges10:05:37

Definitely - we need to work as a team, working together to build good things

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:00

"deliver safe value" - GREAT TALK! thank you!

๐Ÿ™ 2
Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:05:05

Thank you, Leanne and Mark! We are honored to welcome @jmrichardson1, also known as Admiral John Richardson, who will be presenting next!

โค๏ธ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:11

Thank you @leanne.bridges @mark.rendell!

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๐Ÿ™ 1
Leanne Bridges10:05:51

Thankyou for having us along

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:14

Thanks @leanne.bridges @mark.rendell! ๐Ÿ‘

โค๏ธ 2
RJ - Ways of Working, Nationwide UK10:05:16

OK - so, yes, biased - but was AWESOME โค๏ธ

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Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)10:05:23

I think we need a framing around the Risk, not around the Control. The Risk is the outcome; the Control is just an output along the way.

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1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:12

Yes. The formal Controls are context sensitive depending on the risk profile and risk appetite

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:04

Not one size fits all set of Controls (lowest common denominator) as is usually the case.

Leanne Bridges10:05:16

Hey @rshoup - do you mean the 'wrapper' for the work or through the work?? We use the outcome of the URA to provide a baseline risk profile and define 'why' controls are required and to what extent they're mandatory. It helps us prioritise the work in that way but gives us a persistent line of sight to 'what happens' if we don't invest in that specific control activity, how does that affect the risk profile... We didn't dive into that on this session but I'd be happy to explore further with you.

mark rendell10:05:37

I totally agree @rshoup but there is also often a significant volume of established controls processes that you need to meet where they currently are.

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Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)11:05:55

@leanne.bridges Sorry, I meant that we need to frame the problem in terms of the Risk, not in terms of the Control. Reducing the Risk is the outcome / goal / business value. A particular Control is one candidate way to achieve it, but there may be others, as you pointed out. The Controls are not themselves valuable! I've had so many conversations with auditors that take this path. "Tell me your process and prove you are following it", they say. And I try to reframe the conversation around the Risk itself and how we can reduce that.

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)11:05:47

Your model sounds great. I'll be sharing it with our internal auditors ๐Ÿ™‚.

โค๏ธ 1
Leanne Bridges11:05:02

Glad to have helpedโ€ฆ. The experience you mention though makes me think of human-robotsโ€ฆ we have to challenge processes and controls to ensure that they add value (otherwise audit is valueless)

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:42

This was really insightful @leanne.bridges @mark.rendell thanks so much!

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Leanne Bridges10:05:50

Thankyou - is great to be able to reflect and share our journey

Steve Spear10:05:49

To @ffion comment> It has to be about the people. Their collective intelligence is the source of the systems we create and itโ€™s their needs that systems exist to satisfy.

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)10:05:57

It's that systems thinking that allows us to release our teams from a blame dynamic and fix the system collectively

Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:56

Thanks @leanne.bridges and @mark.rendell, also going to share this with my risk management peers!

โค๏ธ 3
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:22

Up next: Admiral John Richardson, former Chief of Naval Operations, retired. @jmrichardson1!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:42

Really enjoyed the Idealcast episodes with @jmrichardson1!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:16

It was an incredible experience recording 4 hours of interviews with @jmrichardson1 with @steve773! https://itrevolution.com/the-idealcast-episode-15/

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4
Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:23

Did you get into a discussion about Gen4 reactors that are being talked about being manufactured in a plant?

Briny Deep11:05:59

We did not get into some of these important technologies...subject of another talk!

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:24

"11 years under water" !!

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:49

i feel like until DevOps revolution came along I was under water too ๐Ÿ˜‰

๐Ÿ˜† 6
David Sampimon (ING)10:05:20

That is a personal goal right there: spend a couple of years underwater (but then from a leisure perspective :)

Philip Day10:05:31

11 years underwater - things you can look forward to if you bought crypto in the last few months ๐Ÿ™‚

3
Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:13

haha which channel is for crypto discussions? :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Philip Day17:05:04

We should chat crypto later!

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:31

"ownership of the mission"

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:41

โ€œpush ownership out to the furthest capable edgeโ€

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1
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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:11

i love the inclusion of โ€œcapableโ€. thatโ€™s important.

โž• 1
Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:18

Such a big role trust plays here as well

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:00

these same principles are reflected in the talk from david silverman at last yearโ€™s summitโ€ฆ https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=432219018

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:47

team comes back stronger. Thinking of how this is recognized. :thinking_face:

Briny Deep10:05:26

As for recognition, there are a host of both individual and unit/team awards that we used to recognize coming back stronger

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:38

Holy cow, @jmrichardson1 โ€”ย it occurred to me after we recorded your talk, that the Officer of the Deck had to formulate the response, not the ship commander. In general, how junior can these OODs be?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:47

Expertise is an important element of delegation. Often overlooked.

๐Ÿ’ฏ 4
jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:56

itโ€™s sort of a reverse โ€œpeter principleโ€

โž• 1
Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:23

full ownership, expertise, authority - leader development

Briny Deep10:05:38

These are young officers - maybe 27-28 years old...their teams on watch average 20 years old

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:57

lack of a very deliberate approach to developing leaders...

Briny Deep10:05:59

MUST have expertise!

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Briny Deep10:05:20

But also character!

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:43

If you want to be competitive, you must deliberate about developing leaders

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:45

โ€œif you want to be competitive, if you want to seize every fleeting opportunity that comes your way, you must think about how you develop your leadersโ€ ย โ€” @jmrichardson1

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:46

Puts the jobs ads which say must have 15+ years of DevOps experience in perspective and to shame

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:57

Startling โ€”ย 28 yo officer can be responsible for $1B destroyer, and we require 15 years of experience to write deployment automation scripts.

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys10:05:57

Highlights organizations where the hiring manager didn't write the ad to me or worse organizations incapable of learning from and training new talent

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:03

Framework - what are the attributes that our leaders have (different for every org) - dependent on mission of the org - goal that your system has to be tuned for

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:31

1st lane - confidence (!!!)

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)10:05:36

Tuning the system for building leaders, thatโ€™s excellent.

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Christoph Hagedorn10:05:40

"leadership factory" - I'm not sure we've something like that in Germany :)

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech10:05:40

Framing around being a "leadership factory" is so unique though, who else thinks of themselves that way?

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:11

the only other time iโ€™ve heard this term was another US Navy reference โ€” the book Turn the Ship Around from David Marquet.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech10:05:38

Yeah and maybe many more should but it's categorically problematic in most places

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:58

This sounds a lot like the โ€˜Technical Maestroโ€™ profile you raised in your interview with Ron Westrum, @genek.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:06

2nd - character and integrity - acting consistent with the values of the organiation

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)10:05:21

What happens when confidence exceeds necessary competence?

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant10:05:28

Character and integrity - what are some of the recommended ways to work on identifying gaps and developing these?

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:30

3rd - connections - sense of confidence that if those leaders ran into a situation that they would not hesitate to reach back to get more support

George Powell10:05:41

@GeneKim is the Admiral here in the chat with us? If not where can we ask him questions?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:14

Yes, @jmrichardson1 is Admiral John Richardson

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:43

What a great articulation of leadership development!

๐Ÿ’ฏ 1
Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike10:05:10

@gdpowellpe @jmrichardson1

โœ… 1
Craig Cook - IBM10:05:44

Pushing ownership to the edge, I'm hearing strong Psychological Safety.

๐Ÿ‘ 2
Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:46

love this point on not having to borrow authority

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)10:05:46

Really similar to the Elements of Trust - Motivation, Competence, Reliability. But I love the first-order focus on Connections. We mostly miss that human element.

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Briny Deep10:05:55

Monitoring for integrity and character - it takes positive energy and assessment by senior leaders, and close monitoring of the โ€œconversationsโ€ amongst the team. The key is taking every opportunity to provide positive guidance in this regard, otherwise youโ€™ll be dominated by the bad news..

โค๏ธ 4
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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:57

Such a powerful concept! I was wondering how you conduct these assessments and monitoring. Any tips?

Briny Deep11:05:18

The only way I found is to engage with the third element - connections! This is very hard to assess from a distance - leaders at every level need to be connected personally to their leaders and teams to get the best sense. This seems to me to be the most important thing...once the rights people are in place, the rest is providing good guidance and sharing ownership!

๐Ÿ™ 1
Sophie Weston10:05:03

Reminds me of the three groups in 'Turn the Ship Around' - Competence, Clarity and Control

๐Ÿ’ฏ 1
Tim Wyatt10:05:24

@genek101 I loved the IdealCast episodes you did with Admiral Richardson, and also the Team of Teams people. It's interesting how the military has adapted to this empowered teams approach faster than the Enterprise!!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:49

@jmrichardson1: Dr. @ronwestrum recently introduced me to Rabinowโ€™s Law: โ€œif you have a dope at the top, you will have, or soon will have, dopes all the way down.โ€ This struck me as hilarious and quite profound โ€”ย does that resonate with your own experiences?

๐Ÿ‘€ 2
1
Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:24

Almost sounds like a corollary to the Peter Principle!

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)11:05:30

A players hire A players; B players hire C players. Then I modify it to say "hire and retain"/

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:07

๐Ÿ˜‚ Yes, @rshoup, I totally think this is a corollary of Rabinowโ€™s Law.

Steve Spear11:05:12

Chapter 5 has the Naval Reactor (Admiral Rickover) case to which Gene referred.

๐Ÿ”– 1
Briny Deep11:05:23

I found that every ship took on the characteristics of itโ€™s commanding officer. It was uncanny...

Grant Robertson - Synopsys11:05:21

I'm glad that doesn't apply to countries as a whole though ๐Ÿ˜‰

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:43

"attributes tuned to your organization", appropriately connected - push ownership out to the most capable and furthest edge of the org

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:23

Yes, that was exactly what the โ€œdope at the topโ€ principle reminded me of โ€”ย @steve773 and I have been discussed how it illustrates why leadership is so important.

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems11:05:48

It makes sense to me why in a military context, avoiding asking for support can cause catastrophic problems. Makes me wonder why I hesitate to ask for help myself when I need it.

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Briny Deep11:05:00

I had a really terrific time speaking with you today about leader development. It was a real honor to be part of this discussion, and I'm grateful to Gene for including me. I intend to continue to develop and sharpen the ideas I touched on to make them more useful to leaders in business. If you'd like to participate in that, it's super easy and I'd be privileged to include you. Just send an email to <mailto:BrinyDeep@SendYourSlides.com|<mailto:BrinyDeep@SendYourSlides.com>> with the subject "leaders" โ€” you'll get an automated response that will loop you in and give you access to a few products that I put together in the Navy.

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:09

great talk thank you!!!!!

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:31

Yes that was excellent thank you!

David Sampimon (ING)11:05:36

Great talk, thank you

Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:05:38

Thank you so much, @jmrichardson1!! And now, we welcome @mik talking about OKRs and DevOps!

Steve Spear11:05:43

@jmrichardson1 Nice!

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)11:05:48

leadership is so, so, SO important. thanks for your insights!

Briny Deep11:05:51

A pleasure!! Hope we can stay connected going forward!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:02

Iโ€™ve learned so much from @jmrichardson1 in every interaction Iโ€™ve had with him โ€” I encourage you to take advantage of this fleeting opportunity! ๐Ÿ™‚ Thank you, @jmrichardson1!!! (and thank you to @steve773 who introduced me to him!!)

Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect11:05:03

nice pun :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Briny Deep11:05:33

Steve and Gene - thank you so much for bringing me into this amazing forum!

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Chris Swan11:05:38

Thanks @jmrichardson1 as an ex Royal Navy person your stories just now and with Gene on the podcast really resounded. My own research over the past year on Agile brought me to 'oh, enterprises need leadership 1.01', so it's great that there feels like a zeitgeist around leadership in the industry now.

Briny Deep11:05:13

Totally agree! It was always a learning experience when I had the honor of working together with the RN!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:34

And speaking of leadership! Hereโ€™s @mik talking about how leaders screw up the OKR planning process!! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:50

Thanks so much @jmrichardson1, fantastic session!

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Dave Simmonds11:05:57

@jmrichardson1 - excellent, ty

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:33

@jmrichardson1 The failure patterns here will be about the opposite of radical delegationโ€ฆ

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:33

"failing in surprising ways"

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:40

(In what should be the most startling contrast of great vs. disastrous leadership: hereโ€™s @mik! Wait, that probably didnโ€™t come out quite right. ๐Ÿ™‚ โ€œHow CEOโ€™s screw up OKRs in their org in surprising and tragic ways and how to fix it.โ€

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)11:05:02

I sat in on this recording and @mik did this in one take! Heโ€™s such a pro. Though I do miss selecting his walk-on music. ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:22

Objectives - the what - value, KRS - benchmarks for how. 3-5 OKRs, cascade

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:49

always a fun topic "how do we measure value"

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:00

โ€œmucking and micromanaging where we shouldnโ€™t be.โ€

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:07

"issue: measure the wrong things"

Bart Kelly (Tasktop)11:05:11

Great Session @jmrichardson1! Thank you for you insights & service.

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David Sampimon (ING)11:05:13

I love the single hero in the bulldozer at the front of the ship

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:23

His name is Brent

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:19

It's impressive this is the first time that incident was mentioned, expected it to be much more prominent ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff11:05:31

Leadership Development in the U.S. Navy from Admiral John Richardson is live in the Video Library for sharing: https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704528

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:52

any investment other than the bottleneck is an illusion

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)11:05:41

Theory of Constraints FTW! ๐Ÿ™Œ

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:35

Turns out @genek is the source of that quote even though I tried for quite a while to attribute it to Goldratt!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:42

Trivia fact: @mik told me he couldnโ€™t find the quote โ€œany improvement not made at the bottleneck is an illusionโ€ in The Goal. I laughed at him, told him to look again. And then I looked, and holy cow, I couldnโ€™t find it, either. (I think it came from Beyond The Goal, but thereโ€™s no easy way to search 7 hours of audio lecture in a hurry. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys11:05:03

How would you compare OKRs to KPIs?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:05:58

KRs, Key Results, are often changes in a KPI

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:00

KPIs are health metrics. help you set guardrails

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:07

KPIs are equivalent to health indicators (e.g. heartrate) KRs are movement (e.g. we've travelled 5 miles from point A in 1 hour)

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:45

And orgs will tend to have many more KPIs than OKRs, the KPIs are longer lived and less related to a planning window, etc.

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Grant Robertson - Synopsys11:05:07

ok velocity vs acceleration would a comparable analogy then?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:05:16

velocity and acceleration are both KPIs. you could have key results for each (increase our velocity by 10%, increase acceleration by 5%)

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:05:24

the outcome is where you want to getโ€ฆ

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:14

Lead Time 85th percentile is a KPI Reducing the 85th percentile LT by 10% is a KR

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:05:03

So maybe something like โ€œour outcome is to win the next raceโ€. To achieve this we will need to improve the performance, including โ€œincrease our top end velocity by 10%โ€ โ€œincrease acceleration by 5%โ€ โ€œdecrease pit stop time by 3%โ€ < helpful @robertso?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:05:51

(I like Jonโ€™s examples :thumbsup: )

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:06

There may be loads of KPIs There should not be loads of KRs (limit WIP)

Grant Robertson - Synopsys11:05:10

measuring KPIs help you track performance vs OKRs and ensure you hit your OKRs

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:05:56

@jonathansmart1 with the zen koan of KPIs !

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:27

KPIs show your current status, health. Key Results shine a light on improvement (leading and lagging)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:17

Some KRs are likely NOT existing KPIs (especially leading KRs, e.g. clicks on online advertising as a leading indicator of future sales)

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:03

and how would we even know whether our OKRs are slowing us down or not if we're not measuring!

Adrienne Shulman11:05:38

is this evidence of scenius - having trouble attributing a quote or idea to a single person?

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech11:05:47

Interesting.... could well be. And if we accept it we stop being so famished for exact attribution and more open to collaboration

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:11

Or likely sloppy citation management on my part. ๐Ÿ™‚

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:50

OKR - strategic, KPI measurement that exists within the framework

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:54

This was the biggest realization to me, that OKRs were being used to snap teams back into waterfall planning.

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Julia Harrison11:05:16

I think even when it hasn't happened, teams fear this. I want to ask "who hurt you?"

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:44

This was quite the aha moment โ€”ย team roadmaps shouldnโ€™t be part of the OKRs: theyโ€™re different axes in the planning process. Otherwise, OKR results in โ€œwhereโ€™s my feature?โ€ ๐Ÿ˜† @mail832 also talks about this tomorrow.

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Vlad Ukis12:05:05

@mik would you still recommend to have both: the roadmaps and the OKRs?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)14:05:27

Yes absolutely, having both Product Roadmaps and OKRs.

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Julia Harrison15:05:38

I especially love when the roadmap shows outcomes and not "things" - like "make it easier for users to find the most relevant pages first time" rather than "improve relevancy search algorithm" or whatever

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:47

"Where is my feature" - Never have I heard, where is my debt item ๐Ÿ˜ข

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Craig Gorveatt (Tasktop)11:05:41

To the business debt items don't have value. Changing that perception is important. But i agree. Ive never heard it either

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:18

Yeah we're having that discussion inside of our orgs right now, at some point they become so big and everyone sees the symptoms of never dealing with the debt, suddenly it becomes a thing to talk about ๐Ÿ‘€

Sophie Weston11:05:18

I like the term 'revenue-protecting work' (debt) and 'revenue-generating work' (features) - I think it was @dominica that I first heard use these terms.

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:46

That is actually super good framing! Def gonna steal that one!

Craig Gorveatt (Tasktop)11:05:29

add security risk work to protecting revenue. Seeing how much risk work you're doing (or not doing) is important too

Sophie Weston11:05:47

Agreed - something teams at my company are just starting to do, wasn't previously something we were doing explicitly. You'll be pleased to hear that it's the adoption of Tasktop Viz that is driving this change! ๐Ÿ˜€

Craig Gorveatt (Tasktop)11:05:21

that's great @sophie.weston129. Making work visible and seeing improvements is a great motivator for change

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:59

everyone wants more features more quickly, pushed down on top of the value stream, capacity being overloaded.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:41

@philipp.boeschen650 That is a key point, and why only the feature icons are green in this slide and why theyโ€™re the ones that contribute most to WIP.

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:53

OKRs can help balance roadmaps

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:34

value stream OKRs - widen the canal

Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:42

@mik - have you worked with any companies in the past year that had to completely restructure their flow as their business shifted from retail to direct to consumer?

Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)11:05:42

would you have OKR only on Value Stream level or would you do this is as well on a lower level?

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:07

@mik curious to get your thoughts. I typically see them cascaded

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)11:05:06

At Google, we cascaded them all the way down

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:01

@mik describing how OKR process can elevate/escalate system level bottlenecks. Very cool. (as opposed to โ€œwhereโ€™s my feature?โ€œ)

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Stijn Claes - Nike11:05:16

By improving transparency on capacity and the importance of aligned priorities, we no longer get questions of can you please do this, but now frequently get questions like can you not just add some capacity.. as if developers are a commodity you can scale up and down at any time. Anyone else struggling with that?

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Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)11:05:51

and they will deliver directly more outcome. Yes we have this discussion as well

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:10

Having visibility on capacity is key.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)11:05:52

The question reminds me of the discussion in The Mythical Man Month by Brooks

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:36

organizational OKRs reminds me of the "from your auditor friends" talk this morning - making it visible to encourage that collaboration and delegation

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:00

@bernard.voos Yes! And some did that extremely effectively. I saw OKR hoirzons shorten to mothly or very 2 weeks in some cases at start of pandemic and drive very fast and positive change.

George M11:05:03

Really good talk ๐Ÿ‘

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:22

โ€œbusiness results are LAGGING measures.โ€ <--- obvious, but Iโ€™m not sure if I fully understood and internalized until @mik pointed this out.

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Andy Farmer - Tasktop11:05:32

I really like how the leading vs lagging vs team metrics have been called out in the presentation

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:13

@mik - thanks! I would love to hear more, because this is an area I (and my teams) struggle with.

Olav Maassen (Tasktop)11:05:27

Also happy to provide more resources after the conference.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:31

@bernard.voos Hit me up in the #project-to-product channel and I can elaborateโ€ฆ

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:32

improvement of daily work in support of the OKR - rather than being pushed as the lowest priority...

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:02

Such a nice example of how a budget constraint was removed by using OKR as a vehicle to describe importance of what this team did.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:32

Iโ€™ve seen this happen repeatedly, the hosting cost bubble reduced via tech debt reduction. Even though itโ€™s an overly-simplistic case for tech debt investment, definitely a compelling one.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:47

โ€œGoal: zero days wait state on business validation of featuresโ€ ๐ŸŽ‰

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:26

@mik in that policy vlaue stream example, I am confused by the flow KR. whenever I have done OKRs, we have tried to keep KRs very directly related to the objective. How does that KR gets us to say that the objective has been achieved? also pointing to that we can increase the flow but deliver features that customers dont love ๐Ÿ˜•

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:34

0 days wait state on business input - fits the really audacious goal criteria of OKRs!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:49

โ€œradical empowerment of the value streamโ€

David Sampimon (ING)11:05:26

I always viewed NPS as a leading metric for income/profit. So interesting to see it framed as lagging to flow metrics

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:28

"empower value streams to create their own OKRs"

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:46

@kapoor.vaidik Those are two really key questions, thatโ€™s why the two KRs complement each other. One about how to delivery more features (flow) the other about whether those features are making a difference (NPS).

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:24

okay. its like deployment frequency and change fail rate

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:36

we have struggled with high level OKRs in our org though. often an OKR like that has not translated very well in shared udnerstanding amongst teams. we are not sure why. someitmes we attribute that to lack of maturity in relatively younger teams and middle management

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:58

i was wondering if you have also observed this. not specifically the cause but the effect of OKRs not being well udnerstood in teams?

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:21

we usually end up making KRs very specific to the objective. for example: Make our service loved by our customers: โ€ข Increase NPS by X โ€ข Increase conversion rate for new users by Y โ€ข Increase repeat order frequency by Z And then every product engineering team is allowed make their own relevant OKRs aligned to those

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:12

and as a general theme of practice improvement (not derived from a formal flow study i must admin), we take up excellence OKRs

Patrick Anderson - Tasktop - he/him11:05:36

Hi @kapoor.vaidik - if you head over to #project-to-product and @mik, he or the team can get back to you. Alternatively, head over to the #xpo-tasktop channel where someone can try to help you! Mik is also hosting an AMA tonight with special guest, Pieter Jordaan, Group CTO at TUI!ย ๐Ÿ™‚

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff11:05:02

OKRs &amp; DevOps: From Micromanagement Misery to Finding Flow from @mik is now live in the Video Library, and available for sharing: https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704601

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:06

And together they drive the business objective. Hit me on on #project-to-product if youโ€™re interested in more.

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Scott Prugh (CTO - CSG) DOES Prog Committee11:05:13

Nice job @mik I liked tying the OKRs to the flow metrics!

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike11:05:26

Thank you @mik for your very valuable contributions to our community

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:41

Thanks @scott.prugh! I documented some more details on these practices and happy to share.

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Marcin Prฤ…czko11:05:53

@mik Could share a bit more how to measure flow - what metrics are valid? (Lean time)?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:47

@marcin.praczko1 For more on measuring flow, check out the talk from DOES Vegas: https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=467489079 or the resources at: https://projecttoproduct.org and happy to chat more on the #project-to-product channel!

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead11:05:54

@mik How would you relate the 4 Key Engineering KPIS (from State of Devops/Accelerate) with OKRs?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:09

@robert.ruzitschka In my view they are critical telemetry at the team level, and should be set as OKRs for a value stream if they are the bottleneck (eg, improve deployment frequency xโ€ where x is frequent enough for deployment frequency to stop being a bottleneck.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)11:05:05

@mik thanks for the thought provoking talk. Now I have to try and process all the discussion it produced

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Andy Farmer - Tasktop11:05:52

Thank goodness for the DOES video replay function!ย ๐Ÿ™‚ย ย  There is also plenty of related content on: โ€ข Tasktop YouTube channel -ย https://www.youtube.com/user/Tasktop โ€ข Tasktop blogsย  -ย https://tasktopblog.wpengine.com/

Sascha Schรคrich (DevOps Evangelist at Deutsche Telekom IT)11:05:40

Iโ€™ve heard managers say โ€œKPIs are now called OKRsโ€โ€ฆ

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:09

That is about as painful as "DevOps is just a pipeline right?"

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)11:05:27

Understanding new concepts is hard, and managers typically have limited time, so they develop these mapping heuristics... hard to get attention...

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:53

Yeah empathy when explaining and not diving too deep goes a long way

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:15

Not everyone is as deep into the topic as you are, is a good mantra to keep in mind when talking about stuff

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:09

I think it is very important not to mix KPIs and OKRs, or the OKR deployment will not result in any improvement to the dynamics of your planning.

Andy Farmer - Tasktop11:05:41

So true - OKR's are a mindset shift. Big interdependence with Psychological Safety - can't have successful OKR's without the psychological safety.... In my experience, organisations that have not embraced the mindset of OKRs (e.g. re-named KPI's) also have issues with psychological safety that may need to be solved first/in parallel

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:06

That statement can be expanded to loads of things I think, the cultural aspects are always a big factor, usually the techniques and approaches just help shape that and force you to think about what kind of culture you want to foster

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:48

Ultimately I don't think you can avoid thinking about your own special situation and evaluate it

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:42

come see us at the project to product or tasktop channel to see it in action!!

Gianluca Manzi11:05:44

Hi @mik, shall I think Flow metrics as in-process metrics or differently?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:52

Think of the Flow Metrics as a leading indicator for measuring process improvement.

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff11:05:08

Morning Plenary Links P&amp;Gโ€™s DevOps Journeyย withย @colas.aย &ย @olimpia.nittiย โ€” https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641782 H&amp;M Group โ€“ Integrating Business and Techย withย @daniel.claessonย &ย @jakob.knutsson657ย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641791 From Your Auditor Friends: What We Wish Every Technology Leader Knewย withย @lucasc5ย &ย @lewir7ย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641804 Intelligent Control - Enabling Safety At Speed with @leanne.bridges & @mark.rendell โ€” https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704454 Leadership Development in the U.S. Navyย with Admiral John Richardson โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704528 OKRs &amp; DevOps: From Micromanagement Misery to Finding Flowย withย @mikย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704601

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:34

Yes, I find this very much true, and why the way that leadership approaches the initial rollout of OKRs is so important.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:21

Itโ€™s as much mindset as it is a tool or process

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)11:05:02

@jeff.gallimore when/where is the AMA for @jonathansmart1?

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:02

"When setting OKRs, focus on the destination, not on the means to get there". migrating from activities to value based OKRs... "delivering an initiative is not enough. We must fulfill it successfully" - in addition to measure what matters and radical focus, I thought this site was pretty concise as well - https://felipecastro.com/en/okr/success-criteria-types-key-results/

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)11:05:11

Yes that is a good resources, thanks @katharine.chajka!

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff11:05:39

The action has moved to breakouts! Join the following channels to chat with speakers live while their talks air: #ask-the-speaker-track-1 #ask-the-speaker-track-2 #ask-the-speaker-track-3 #ask-the-speaker-track-4

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution16:05:56

Coming back from the break in a few minutes, we are so excited to welcome @nora from Jeli! ๐ŸŽ‰

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Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:38

Hi all! Excited to be here ๐Ÿ˜„ looking forward to answering your questions

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff16:05:35

<!here> plenary started up again! @nora is here to answer questions.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:26

Up next: @nora on what we can and really need to be learning from incidents!

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:02

This is going to be so interesting, incident analysis and learning is such an underrated field!

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Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting16:05:00

> An investment which was made on your behalf, but without your consent.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:28

โ€œweโ€™re merely making efforts to stop future incidents โ€”ย but weโ€™re not improving the incident review processโ€ฆโ€ and thus not yielding additional knowledge we should be getting from them, that could create so much more value.

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Philip Day16:05:39

"Incident response and system management" is the phrase I use after watching previous fantastic DOES talks on incident management (Erica Morrison, John Allspaw, Richard Cook) Looking for to this one a lot

๐Ÿ’ฏ 2
Filip Berlikowski, CTO16:05:41

Lovely coincidence. I just had to go over post mortem ๐Ÿ˜„

๐Ÿ˜€ 2
Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:45

We call them โ€œunplanned investmentsโ€ ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ˜† 1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:36

Saw that in @allspawโ€™s DOES talk a couple of years ago ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ‘ 2
Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:10

I probably heard it in DOES Europe last year ๐Ÿ™‚

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:10

We definitely use it as a serious idea though, incident reviews are an opportunity to improve work for our teams, not just reduce errors

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:51

"It's the system telling you where your understanding is wrong" ๐Ÿ™‚

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:20

yes @genek! folks tend to expect to improve incidents, without giving more time to spend on incident reviews

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1
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Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:35

which tends to lead to disappointment in lack of improvement

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:48

Gary Klein: โ€œPerformance improvement = more errors + more insightsโ€ โ€”ย weโ€™re good at the โ€œerrorโ€ part, much less good at the โ€œinsightโ€ part

๐Ÿ‘€ 1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:08

this is my favorite equation to show to folks

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:22

it's easy to measure error reduction, it's hard to measure insight generation...

๐Ÿ‘ 1
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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:41

โ€œwe were doing most of the learning, as opposed to the people on the actual product teamsโ€ ๐Ÿ™‚

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:42

so less time ends up being spent on it, when it's incredibly important

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:14

A catalyst about theory vs reality ๐Ÿคฏ

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:16

โ€œincident analysis is not about the incident โ€”ย itโ€™s about understanding delta between โ€˜system as imaginedโ€™ vs โ€™system in reality.โ€

๐ŸŽ‰ 3
๐ŸŽฏ 4
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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:43

โ€œthe โ€˜socioโ€™ in โ€˜sociotechnical systemsโ€™!โ€ <--- so good!

๐Ÿ’ฏ 2
๐Ÿคฏ 1
Craig Cook - IBM16:05:10

lol. human error

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:24

That's exactly the best incidents to learn from ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

David Read16:05:27

Yes, individual incident reviews are not that valuable - it's the general trends across many incidents which are much more helpful for revealing the underlying issues.

John Allspaw16:05:54

Trends based on poor underlying data isnโ€™t a productive approach ๐Ÿ™‚

David Read16:05:17

incident reviews are not good data?

David Read16:05:25

My point is that too few people analyse the trends - they are a goldmine

John Allspaw16:05:12

I agree with that (depending on how thatโ€™s done) - I was disagreeing that individual reviews arenโ€™t that valuable

๐Ÿ‘ 1
David Read16:05:46

agree, I mispoke

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Dave Stanke - Google [he/him]16:05:33

I have a very dorky way to describe thisโ€ฆ individual errors should be analyzed by machines. The first derivative of individual errors (error budget burn rate --> incidents) should be analyzed by SREs. The second derivative of individual errors (incident and reliability trends) should be analyzed by leadership.

David Read16:05:33

@davidstanke532 nice - definitely some truth in that - derivatives are more relevant up the hierarchy

Vlad Ukis06:05:14

"incident and reliability trends" - does anyone know good blog posts / videos / etc. on this topic?

Dave Stanke - Google [he/him]14:05:49

Hi Vlad! Iโ€™ve got some content on this which unfortunately is not in a state to be shared outside of NDA. But Iโ€™m starting to think thereโ€™s appetite for it (Iโ€™ll take your question as a sign!), and hopefully I can find time to write about it.

Vlad Ukis14:05:14

Cool! Please, email <mailto:vladyslav.ukis@siemens-healthineers.com|vladyslav.ukis@siemens-healthineers.com> once you have sth to share. Looking forward, @davidstanke532!

1
Adrienne Shulman16:05:57

Ah, so true, it's not a blameless post mortem just because you call it that ๐Ÿ˜œ

1
๐Ÿ™Œ 1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:58

you can't get the trends across incidents without spending time on individual incident reviews though

๐Ÿ‘ 2
โž• 1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:08

and they are definitely valuable on their own

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:14

Poor โ€œKirinโ€!

๐Ÿ˜ญ 2
2
Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:31

I've tried to set up monthly reviews much like Jon spoke about in previous conferences but I've struggled to get traction.

Vlad Ukis06:05:47

Monthly reviews of what?

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:00

I sat in one just yesterday that folks were asking each other how different parts of the system worked, they were all refining their mental models, it was one of the most collaborative, learning experiences I had ever seen

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:26

I've led one of that kind once for one of our systems, still learning from it after months... So valuable! Other areas do post mortems but in them there are no developers because they are too busy and need to be "protected" ๐Ÿ˜ž

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:00

It has an interesting parallel with safety practice, if thereโ€™s an accident due to human error you wouldnโ€™t disregard it, you would try to engineer systems to reduce the opportunity for human error

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:05

^^ Allspaw incident reviews, @eazyd247?

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:06

they had the space to learn more

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:30

Thats the one @genek

๐Ÿ™ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:31

Listening to @nora talk thru this interview is like listening to Sherlockโ€ฆ or Monk. ๐Ÿ™‚

3
โค๏ธ 3
๐Ÿ” 4
Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)16:05:21

Elementary, my dear "Kiran"

๐Ÿ˜‚ 1
Adrienne Shulman16:05:20

... or nancy drew? :female-detective: ๐Ÿ˜‰ what an incredible talk!!

๐Ÿ˜„ 1
jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)16:05:53

and then thereโ€™s the โ€œtricky nuancesโ€โ€ฆ

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:13

We gained so much insight from just talking to Kirin and we improved: โ€ข on call transfers โ€ข new employee on-call rotations โ€ข this particular kafka broker

๐Ÿ™ 3
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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)16:05:17

exploring the context is such rich territory for learning

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:37

I would bet only the 3rd one would've been improved if we hadn't done a thorough review

๐Ÿ‘€ 1
Filip Berlikowski, CTO16:05:47

To be honest I like the opportunities incidents bring. Assuming of course you have ways to navigate through the crisis in the first place. Itโ€™s always great opportunity to learn something from them and use it to foster a culture of constant learning and improvement. Incidents can be your leverage to drive attention of stakeholders to important issues that were neglected and contributed to the incident in the first place. But use it wisely as it can be double edged sword if your organisation prefers control over retrospective and improvement.

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:52

and we would've kept putting employees in this position

Craig Cook - IBM16:05:03

Oh, like the RCA needs to be finished within 24hrs?

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:43

This shows though, how much effort goes into that incident review, compared to just sitting together in a meeting for 1h .... It is a lot of up front information gathering that is so interesting!

โ˜๏ธ 3
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:21

definitely @philipp.boeschen650 - but there are certainly smaller things you can do to raise the floor

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:00

Oh now I'm curious, I've got a few ideas but would love to get some inspiration!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:34

I love how @nora is describing how we improve the โ€œsocioโ€ part of the system โ€”ย which in all domains of knowledge work, is a larger part of the value creation process. The parts that arenโ€™t the code. I think this more concretely describes so much of what Allspaw talks about, which can be pretty abstract. cc @jtf

๐Ÿ‘ 1
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Jesse DeRose16:05:15

And this is also one of the hardest parts (I think) to convince leadership and other team members of.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:05:55

That โ€œsocioโ€ part jumped out to me. Remember that That โ€œsocioโ€ jumped out to me. Reminded me that Westrum is a sociologist.

๐Ÿคฏ 1
jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)16:05:58

@nora iโ€™ve noticed some of the language you use (or the absence of it). no โ€œwhyโ€ questions. lots of โ€œtell me aboutโ€ฆโ€

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Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)16:05:16

@nora who is the best person to do the interviews? A Director, Product Owner or a dedidacated Incident Review team? Or someone different?

๐Ÿ‘€ 2
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:21

^^ absolutely @jeff.gallimore it puts people less on the defensive

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:28

and gets them to share more

1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:36

more of the good stuff that you can actually act on

๐Ÿ’ฏ 2
Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)16:05:20

Wow. Promo packets as contributing factor to incidents!

๐Ÿ˜ณ 3
๐Ÿ˜– 1
๐Ÿ˜‚ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:32

โ€œwe noticed that there was an uptick in incidents during certain parts of the yearโ€ฆโ€œ. (uh oh?). โ€œaround when promotion packets were due.โ€ (OH NO!) ๐Ÿ˜†

๐Ÿ˜‚ 1
Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:45

We tend to use the 5 whyโ€™s, do you think thereโ€™s a better way of tracing root causes?

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)16:05:58

Weโ€™ve moved away from 5 whyโ€™s because of many reasons in this post by John Allspaw: https://www.kitchensoap.com/2014/11/14/the-infinite-hows-or-the-dangers-of-the-five-whys/

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:41

This is really good stuff, thanks folks

โž• 1
Craig Cook - IBM16:05:45

That's an interesting organizational issue to uncover!

Philip Day16:05:54

All incentives are toxic ๐Ÿ™‚

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)16:05:25

All incentives are wrong; some are useful ?

David Read16:05:52

and deadlines...

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:47

my question is more -- "how do incentives impact work"

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)16:05:49

Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence; never ascribe to incompetence what can adequately be explained by perverse incentives.

Philip Day16:05:09

I'm increasingly with Niels Pflaeging on this - no bonuses (cf: Netflix)

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:05:07

Walmart paid bonuses based on company performance. Then they put a tiered structure in place based on individual performance reviews. The first was motivating. The second had the opposite result. Even if you got an high performing bonus you knew that a co-worker was being hurt because they had a poor manager.

Sophie Weston16:05:02

Oh wow... incidents caused by people rushing to finish work because that's what they were being measured on! ๐Ÿคฏ

๐Ÿคฏ 1
Adrienne Shulman16:05:05

rings of goodharts law?!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:44

I find this story to be so hilarious, tragic, delightful, complicated, thought provokingโ€ฆ c @nora

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:20

thanks Gene - it certainly was all of those things

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:19

@rshoup โ€œpromo packetsโ€ definitely resides in the domain of the โ€œsocioโ€ part of the โ€œsociotechnical system!โ€

1
Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:05:27

I talked to one organization who paid bonuses based on number of features delivered and gave bonuses to PM's based on them rescuing troubled projects.

Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)16:05:26

That puts me to have one more ques in my backlog which I will talk to you later ๐Ÿ™‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:05:35

Looking forward to sharing this talk!

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:40

I love the flow of this presentation, it's so well done ๐Ÿคฏ

โž• 2
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Tim Wyatt16:05:55

Different dynamic in UK companys, but it would be interesting if the same correlation existed with end of year objectives/bonus & pay rise time....

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:38

on the product we're trying to get out, we're pushed so hard to get it out that the incidents are coming in to fast to review

Ron Westrum16:05:40

One of the most fascinating incident reviews was associated with the fire on the Forrestal carrier. There were actually two reports, one by a special review committee, and another stimulated by the CNO. The most interesting part is to see what changed as a result. The CNO kept getting progress reports about the changes that were being made, this was Thomas Moorer.

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley16:05:44

Thoughts on metrics/dashboards that measure individuals.? always feel the risk of that gettin weaponised/toxic quickly is high

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:08

not tracking individuals -- but highlighting what made things difficult for them is key here

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:54

Now this is a product I wanna play with ๐ŸŽ‰

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:27

Hello, Dr. @ronwestrum! So delighted youโ€™re here โ€”ย Iโ€™m curious to what extent this reminds you of the deliberate ways that accident reviews are conducted in other domains?

Lloyd P16:05:28

โ€œBrent-manโ€

๐Ÿ˜‚ 7
Adrienne Shulman16:05:33

bottlenecks in people... brent ?!

โค๏ธ 1
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Tim Wyatt16:05:11

The number of incident calls I've been on where the question "what changes happened" hasn't been asked at the top of the call

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:17

Are there many examples of using examples of how other industries do their incident reviews for better Digital incident reviews? I'm thinking in my companies space, wells event reviews look at all aspects

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:23

Thatโ€™s great, @ronwestrum โ€”ย Iโ€™ll send you a link to former CNO Admiral Richardson (@jmrichardson1) who gave a lecture earlier today, on radical delegation and leadership development. (Who oversaw investigations of a series of accidents and near-misses in South Pacific, not discussed, but much has been written about)

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:27

Especially reviewing "trivial" incidents is such a good idea, always leads to good stuff

โž• 1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:44

absolutely @philipp.boeschen650

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:59

that's where the good stuff is -- in the "easy" ones

๐Ÿ’ฏ 1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:18

because people are more open, and it creates space for when we do need to review the non-trivial ones

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Philip Day16:05:56

Just had an a-ha moment from this

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:23

people are more comfortable

Miranda Shoemaker16:05:33

@nora Loving this talk This is key to work our team is doing now. You mention Jeli isn't available yet, what is the timeframe for when it will be available? We literally were just talking about needing the visualization component of our analysis. ๐Ÿ˜

๐Ÿ‘ 1
John Allspaw16:05:51

When the focus/goal of post-incident work is to produce preventative actions, the resulting description tends to be thin and narrowly technical. As a result, people build an expectation that they wonโ€™t learn much from reading themโ€ฆso they donโ€™t. (full disclosure, we at Adaptive Capacity Labs are huge fans and partners with @nora and what Jeli is doing!) โค๏ธ

โค๏ธ 6
๐Ÿ’ฏ 2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:02

So good seeing you, @allspaw! Looking forward to catching up soon1

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:52

Trivia fact, @ronwestrum โ€”ย I think I was introduced to your work by Jez Humble, who was introduced to it by @allspaw, who has been referenced several times in the last 30m.

Sophie Weston16:05:35

"Move fast and learn from incidents" โค๏ธ

โค๏ธ 2
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:43

@shoemakermk we are in closed beta right now ๐Ÿ˜„ and taking on a certain amount of customers! happy to connect with people from this community that feel like they could benefit from it today. you can DM me in here, <mailto:nora@jeli.io|nora@jeli.io>, or https://www.jeli.io/contact-us/

๐Ÿ™ 2
1
Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)16:05:43

Socio factor. I guess the industry doesn't look at the business factor / cost many a time. @nora

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:48

(PS: Dr. @ronwestrum is giving a talk tomorrow, and part of it is a discussion of the change in culture at Boeing after the McDonnell Douglas acquisition, and how it affected the 787 and 737 MAX programs)

โค๏ธ 2
Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley16:05:20

counter point on external reviwers...need to be careful how many external people at once, or it turns into a bit of a star chamber

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems16:05:24

When do you feel like you've hit diminishing returns on investigating an incident and are ready to move on?

โž• 1
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:38

great question @dacahill7

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:51

Incident reviews are a muscle to be trained :thinking_face: That sounds like fun workshop material ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ’ฏ 3
๐Ÿ˜„ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:26

โ€œIโ€™ve seen people get promoted by conducting this type of incident reviews.โ€

John Allspaw16:05:34

When the focus/goal is to capture and represent the richest understanding of the event for the broadest audience, readers look forward to discussing what they found new or interesting with others, a network effect. This results in write-ups being seen as valuable resources in their normal work.

๐Ÿคฏ 2
โค๏ธ 2
Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:35

I do recommend folks timebox it (especially when learning) it can help it not feel like it's dragging on, and can help not burn out the investigators

๐Ÿ‘ 2
Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)16:05:47

@nora / @allspaw how to make the #IncidentTeam more inclusive. Many a times they are considered as Ops folks not part of your value chain.

โž• 1
๐Ÿ‘€ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:57

@nora is the value that this person got due to this? Understanding how their component fit into the larger system as a whole?

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:39

they changed the way they were going to consume a particular service

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:49

because they learned more about how they were supposed to

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:05:07

@nora in your opinion, what are the events when you see developers looking for and reading incident reviews / postmortems?

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:26

it improves more and more overtime

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:39

as orgs get better at this, people don't want to miss them

Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:01

at first it's more like "oh gosh, terraform again -- I def need to attend this one to get my opinion across"

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Saurabh Singh16:05:38

@nora -- Managing Incident and writing RCA become more tough when C Executive are involved and some time not sure when we dont know why the problem occur in a short span of time period :)

Michael Bird - Senior Architect, UPMC16:05:41

Does anyone use the information found in the incident reports to the troubleshooting section of your runbook?

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff16:05:24

๐ŸŽŠ Incident Analysis โ€“ Your Organizationโ€™s Secret Weapon by @nora is already available to share here: https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641823 (video & slides)

๐Ÿ‘ 3
Jim Moverley - BT16:05:33

amazing session @nora

๐Ÿ˜€ 1
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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:40

๐Ÿ‘ that was properly mind blowing

โž• 1
Lloyd P16:05:42

Great session, thank you so much!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:45

Thank you, @nora!

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โž• 2
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Ann Perry - IT Revolution16:05:46

Thank you, @nora! And now, closing us out today, is none other than @corey...

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager16:05:46

@nora one of the best talks so far, thank you!

๐Ÿ˜„ 2
Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:47

@nora That was an amazing talk! So much learning packed into that time. Thank you! ๐Ÿ‘:skin-tone-5:

๐Ÿ˜„ 1
Ciaran Byrne16:05:57

Thank you @nora - really insightful session. Fantastic!๐Ÿ™

๐Ÿ‘ 1
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cquinn16:05:07

Hi everyone, thank you for attending my talk: You Suck at Cloud and It'sย Notย All Your Fault. Head over toย http://LastWeekinAWS.com/DOESย and sign up to receive: โ€ข The Unconventional Guide to AWS Cost Management โ€ข Understanding Data Transfer in AWS Diagram โ€ข Recommended interviews and podcast episodes And now, my nonsense begins.

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Nora Jones - CEO at Jeli.io16:05:16

one of the best ROIs of Incident analysis is how much it levels everyone up, especially the people analyzing the incident -- the more folks you have doing this, the more expertise builds, the better your system functions

โ˜๏ธ 1
Olivier Jacques, DXC16:05:17

"a keen eye for the absurd". ๐Ÿ˜„

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:26

Up next: Corey Quinn @corey !

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)16:05:27

Welcome @corey!! Super excited that you're presenting!

Sophie Weston16:05:28

Thank you @nora - that was a fantastic talk!

๐Ÿ˜„ 2
Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)16:05:33

Shameless plug: I'll actually be talking about The Anatomy of Three Incidents from Google, Stitch Fix, WeWork next week where we applied a similar pattern of very detailed post-incident investigation and followup: https://99percentdevops.com/blameless/?utm_content=166199815

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:19

Going from incidents and on-call to someone who definitely does not want to wake up at 3am ๐Ÿ˜‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:05:25

โ€œangry opinions, backed by dataโ€

โค๏ธ 3
Jesse DeRose16:05:58

I work with Corey and can 100% confirm this statement.

๐Ÿ˜† 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:45

The amount of money that we collective spend on cloud always boggle my mind.

๐Ÿ“ˆ 2
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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:05:13

And we can't walk over to their desk and yell when they are unstable. ๐Ÿ˜ž

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)16:05:50

That's right... they point to the 99.9% SLA

Olivier Jacques, DXC16:05:50

At least, it's visible (vs. "On Prem")

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:05:18

But what about the other 5 nines?????

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:02

โ€œApproximately everybodyโ€ ๐Ÿ˜‚

๐Ÿ‘ 2
Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:10

Clearly cloud is not blameless. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

๐Ÿ˜† 2
Chris Gallivan, Stellantis, Value Stream Architect16:05:13

After asking for cloud access and being denied, eventually I paid my own way. In a strange way it felt good because I got what I wanted - the learning

cquinn16:05:46

@saket.kulkarni We conducted a blameless postmortem and blamelessly determined it's all your fault.

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:06

Somehow I already knew thatโ€™d be the outcome.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:05:11

Kidnapping your account managerโ€™s pets used to work, until AWS got better security

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:05:23

thats what AWS folks say all the time

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:05:29

I want to have beer with @corey :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)16:05:21

Yes, please invite to a Finster happy hour ๐Ÿ™‚

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)14:05:57

Today after the conf in the Gather Bar, then thereafter (if that closes) in FinsterChat... coordination in #happy-hour

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)16:05:33

You have to kindnap the PMs pets...

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cquinn16:05:19

AWS PMs name their dogs things like "Simple Elastic Barkenfloof 2.0 for Containers."

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:06

Which begs the question what happened to Barkenfloof 1.0 (or 1.0.7, for that matter)

cquinn16:05:17

I have sad news about AWS Glue's origin story.

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:20

Is it simple, elastic, or neither? ๐Ÿ˜ฅ

cquinn16:05:06

The capacity you need, 20 minutes after you need it.

๐Ÿ˜‚ 2
Dubro - Conti Tires16:05:07

Hm...well...it is possible to do Autoscaling properly

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:05:19

That multi-az thing is a big pain in the neck with kubernetes in AWS BTW

cquinn16:05:37

You are not even slightly kidding. VPC Flow Logs, here I come!

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:05:43

not happy spending time with VPC logs ๐Ÿ™ˆ

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:05:36

"...and not in the fun way I do" :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Dubro - Conti Tires16:05:39

But maybe the nerds you need to pay to do it properly are more expensive than the savings at AWS...

cquinn16:05:07

As with everything, it's nuanced.

๐Ÿ˜€ 1
Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)16:05:40

@corey please do Azure next ๐Ÿ˜‰

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cquinn16:05:52

I've tried to livetweet setting it up twice. Both times it was broken that day.

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cquinn16:05:16

I'm sadly not kidding.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)16:05:41

BUILD is coming up next week... lots of material for your special blameful narration...

cquinn16:05:49

They don't invite me.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)16:05:29

Haha signup under a pseudonym, it's virtual!

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:16

@corey is there an opinion on the new macie stuff actually? Have not looked at it yet...

cquinn16:05:31

Better pricing but still not great unless you bound it and calculate the costs carefully first.

cquinn16:05:39

The bigger problem is that I've yet to hear a success story.

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:55

That sounds like my expectation, unfortunately ๐Ÿ˜„

Olivier Jacques, DXC16:05:03

@corey 's talk is the one getting the most smileys so far. But a serious topic: bills!

cquinn16:05:21

Well yeah; it's a super boring topic unless I bring the funny.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:05:22

I think the soft jazz piano backup is my second favorite part of this talk.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:12

For some, itโ€™s the better part of the talk, Iโ€™m sure. ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ˜†

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Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:40

I love it! and the talk ๐Ÿ˜

Chris Gallivan, Stellantis, Value Stream Architect16:05:23

Itโ€™s a good thing none of the brick counters came to the summit @james.simon1165 - this would set us back decades

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:28

Itโ€™s probably a short sighted view, but this just makes me glad we use Fargate ๐Ÿ˜„

cquinn16:05:45

You'll have more different billing challenges.

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Chris Leeworthy (he/him)16:05:06

For sure, but itโ€™s easier to see what weโ€™re doing in there at least

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)16:05:49

That picture has been referenced so much by me when explaining AWS traffic stuff ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:24

What do you take for the headache staring at the AWS Data Transfer Costs diagram must inevitably give you, @corey?

cquinn17:05:50

Sure, I'll take Dunning-Krugerrands for a service fee.

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cquinn16:05:43

"An AWS pricing manager, down with me."

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:42

"Data always finds it's way into Splunk"

upvotepartyparrot 1
Filip Berlikowski, CTO17:05:01

That was cruel @saket.kulkarni ๐Ÿ˜„

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:49

11 9s, or the one question that is in every AWS certification exam ever

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)17:05:16

Wait, we donโ€™t have to know the Data Transfer Costs diagram for the certification exam, do we? ๐Ÿ˜ฐ

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:42

Na they want you to use AWS afterwards ๐Ÿ˜‚

cquinn17:05:59

I have a platypus guy.

cquinn17:05:32

"Hey Dana, what does the platypus say?" "Bill! Bill! Bill!"

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Tim Wyatt17:05:45

She's responsible for the Jeff Barr cartoons....:D

Adrienne Shulman17:05:13

@corey does the cow tipping reference translate globally?

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Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:46

love the analogy ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚ translates well to the UK!

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)17:05:48

Probably not, but I do know what it is.

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cquinn17:05:44

@ashulman I'm not sure; I'm conversant with American backwoods hicks, but am unfamiliar with the backwoods hickery inherent to other geos.

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Adrienne Shulman17:05:47

This multi cloud talk track is refreshing

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)17:05:47

โ€œIt doesnโ€™t exist because itโ€™s not on YouTube.โ€ thatโ€™s some sound logic there. :thinking_face:

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cquinn17:05:00

@ashulman That's because I"m not selling anything.

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Adrienne Shulman17:05:04

OK but neither are a lot of the individuals working cloud in our orgs ,but that doesnt prevent them from picking up these axioms and amplifying them as facts

cquinn17:05:14

Fair. I've just seen the other side of these things on the AWS bill. It... shapes opinions.

cquinn17:05:25

The best part of consulting is seeing how these tropes play out in lots of different shops.

Adrienne Shulman17:05:55

I can only imagine ๐Ÿ˜–

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)17:05:17

Ah but is it in Stack Overflow?

Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:21

Ok...Corey...I think my DevOps Engineers will contradict here massively...

cquinn17:05:35

@dubravko Fight me!

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Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:36

We created our stack cloud agnostic. And it works...

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems17:05:56

I was a human version of this emoji ๐Ÿ˜ฑ during that tshirt story

Tim Wyatt17:05:57

word on codecommit!

Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:12

Just these days we copy the whole platform from AWS over to Azure...which is not too hard because we did all Infrastructure as Code

cquinn17:05:30

@dubravko Is this a pile of VMs, a managed database or three, and maybe a load balancer?

cquinn17:05:35

Or is it something higher up the stack?

Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:46

@corey, hard to fight you, you are rhetorically more brilliant than me... ๐Ÿ˜‰

cquinn17:05:02

@dubravko Just wait. There's a callback to this point IIRC.

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cquinn17:05:29

(Short version is: you're probably correct for your environment. I'm speaking in the general case, but you've thought about your specific constraints and context way, way, way more than I have.)

Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:25

Which is probably correct, as we never discussed my certain context (at least I can't remember)

cquinn17:05:03

Exactly! My point isn't "you're doing it wrong," it's that if you're chasing multi-cloud because you read it in an in-flight magazine or something PLEASE STOP IMMEDIATELY.

Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:32

Oh no...when we started our journey in 2017 we asked which cloud to use. No one could tell us so we stayed cloud agnostic on purpose. And as of today we need to serve Azure and AWS...

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)17:05:26

@corey than's for the canonical pronunciation of GitHub. I'll be using that and crediting you. It's a perfectly cromulent way of saying it.

cquinn17:05:33

Jith. Ubb.

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:50

That sentence, VPC peering IPsec Terraform ๐Ÿ’ฅ

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Larry Davis17:05:10

"It turns out computers are super expensive!"

cquinn17:05:12

"Animooted pictures."

Adrienne Shulman17:05:45

"go all in on one cloud and then acquire a company that is on a different cloud? good, leave them alone! " so, so good. easier said than done for the command & control leaders ๐Ÿ˜œ

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:53

Predictability matters in financial planning ๐Ÿ‘€

cquinn17:05:49

I promise you that they do.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)17:05:58

Kept trying to get the sales rep to find out who to talk to about an ELA... crickets...

cquinn17:05:17

The term is "EA (enterprise agreement)" for the zero dollar enterprise agreement, or the EDP (Enterprise Discount Program addendum) or PPA (private pricing addendum).

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)14:05:37

It's always good to know exactly what to look for. Will the standard reps know about these, or do you have to know someone inside?

Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:04

Painful topic. Since Conti has this saving contract with AWS no developer can forecast its costs anymore...

cquinn17:05:20

@dubravko You don't expose discounting to your team?

Adrienne Shulman17:05:36

I fact checked @coreyโ€™s claim that he's #1 and #2 in search results for AWS contract negotiations, it checks out ๐Ÿ‘

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Dubro - Conti Tires17:05:34

I do. And Controlling provides me how much I need to participate on all fees and stuff. AWS cost report and Conti Controlling never fit. And Conti Controlling is not able to go down on project level. Not nice...

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:09

Knowledge is power โ€”ย hereโ€™s an amazing 2003 video of Warren Buffet and Charlie Munger talking about how made $120MM selling Costco call options to traders who were blindly using the (Nobel Prize winning idea) Black-Scholes option theory to calculate option values. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd4lfVNJljk&amp;t=16s

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:05:17

"We can totally auto-scale... someday" ๐Ÿ˜‚

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:28

Who wants to scale down anyway, scaling up is way more fun!

โœ… 2
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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:43

Burning money at frightening rates ๐Ÿ˜‚

Adrienne Shulman17:05:44

your hourly $$ cloud rate should correlate to your traffic/usage otherwise you are likely still in data center mindset- GREAT ADVICE!! ๐Ÿ™

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)17:05:56

OMG got the cloud providers in one -- turn it off because they got distracted by something shiny :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Olivier Jacques, DXC17:05:08

Interesting: we AWS-certified architects like crazy, and got mostly serverless (cloudier) implementations as a result. So, is the best recipe to reduce your AWS bill to get archi/developers to AWS certify?

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Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:06

We ended up having Lambda everywhere and it's somewhat of a mess in some areas though :thinking_face: Knowledge itself helps picking the right technology in the end tho!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:11

Interesting! Hypothesis: the more you knowโ€ฆ

โž• 1
cquinn17:05:25

@olivier.jacques I really wish it were that simple. ๐Ÿ˜•

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Kavleen - Product Specialist17:05:04

love the platypus. almost accurate ๐Ÿ™‚

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)17:05:05

@corey does Amazon have the testicular fortitude to have you Keynote re:Invent?

1
Jim Moverley - BT17:05:22

@corey you're my kinda crazy! epic presentation man!!! ๐Ÿ˜„

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Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:41

amazing presentation style - so engaging!

Tim Wyatt17:05:23

don't let developers near your cloud - I had one leave a GPU instance they were experimenting with running for a couple of weeks ๐Ÿ˜„

Philipp Bรถschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)17:05:38

m24xlarge instances are fun ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ˜‚ 1
John Townsend17:05:54

quinnypig for the winny pig great talk. I like shiny things too, so I work on Azure, but I know I can apply these principles there too. Thanks!!

๐Ÿ˜ 1
Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:05:00

๐ŸŽ‰ You Suck at Cloud and Itโ€™s [Not] All Your Fault by @corey is available for sharing here: https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=552401856 (video & slides)

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Tim Wyatt17:05:07

I had that as well - qa guys using a load test ec2 server for writing scripts

Peter Maddison17:05:19

Great talk @corey!

cquinn17:05:33

Thanks! That was fun.

๐Ÿ‘ 4
Tim Wyatt17:05:36

๐Ÿ‘Loved that @corey

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:02

I hope you had a fantastic Day 2 here at DevOps Enterprise! And as great as today was, we have an equally amazing day tomorrow! @mail832 from the UK Government Digital Service is sharing her experiences of how the UK government used her Government as a Platform services to help protect the health of UK citizens, often the most vulnerable, over the last year. @steve773 and I will share what weโ€™ve learned about the common themes of high performers across every industry, building upon the models of structure and dynamics. Dr. @ronwestrum will give a lecture on information flow in organizations, and part of it is a discussion of the change in culture at Boeing after the McDonnell Douglas acquisition, and how it affected the 787 and 737 MAX programs. And @jason.cox gives us an update on the amazing Technology Management Rotation program that heโ€™s served as the executive sponsor for, and we hear from leaders who went through the program! And we hear from Dr. J. Goosby Smith (@drjgoosbysmith) on the elements that create a sense of inclusion in teams, a necessary element for people to feel engaged and bring their best and most creative work. Those are just a few of the many highlights โ€” there are so many good talks tomorrow!

๐Ÿ™Œ 3
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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)17:05:08

Thank you @corey. I had a great laugh and some thoughts to take home ๐Ÿ˜„

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)17:05:16

@corey are you heading over to Gather?

Olivier Jacques, DXC17:05:16

I'm working on an info product to present like @corey. Live. ๐Ÿ˜„

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:31

And hey, thank you to our sponsors, who have done an amazing and DAZZLING job who have truly challenged themselves to engage with this our community in so many creative ways, during a global pandemic that has forced us all to be stuck in endless Zoom/Teams/WebEx calls for months on end. I canโ€™t tell you how delighted and impressed I am with all the delightful experiences theyโ€™ve brought into their Virtual Happy Hours and more.ย ย  Thank you to our sponsors for doing this โ€”ย we couldnโ€™t put on this Summit without them!

2
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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)17:05:34

Help us show them some love, visit their booths, stop by their happy hours and enter their prize drawings!

1
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cquinn17:05:37

If I can help with anything, please ping me. If the answer fits in a short conversation I'm not hoarding it any. ๐Ÿ™‚

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cquinn17:05:37

If I can help with anything, please ping me. If the answer fits in a short conversation I'm not hoarding it any. ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ‘ 2
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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)17:05:47

Come to the Bar in Gather Town and help us feel worse about the fees we pay AWS

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)17:05:53

@corey -hope you can stop by in Gather Town Bar later

cquinn18:05:45

@nickeggleston Where's this?

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)21:05:05

Sorry I didn't see your message ๐Ÿ˜ž

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)21:05:52

@ferrix, @bryan.finster486, @james.moverley, @dale.eb.pluthero, @sumit.agarwal and I are all still in the bar

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)22:05:41

@corey I hope the link works for you

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)22:05:09

The bar has been abandoned at this point. Dale won last man standing.

Sumit09:05:45

Great chatting at the bar yesterday evening. @corey We were chatting about multi-cloud and what that means for critical infrastructure like telecom and would have loved to hear your thoughts.

cquinn14:05:51

I try to avoid speaking to specific industries if I don't have deep experience within them.

cquinn14:05:03

It's way too easy to miss nuance / context.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)14:05:27

Another chance today after the conference ends

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:26

@corey Can you post the link for your resources here, so people can download them?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)17:05:32

There are definitely some differences of opinions on the multi-cloud v single cloud popping up in the scenius lately!

โ€ผ๏ธ 1
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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)17:05:40

How do I stay in the scenius after DOES ends tomorrow?

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect19:05:56

@mik - you will be surprised, how much time in back & forth in these decisions go in an Enterprise. Multi-Cloud sounds like rketing than realizing the capability

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:46

(For the people who didnโ€™t get a screenshot in time, @corey ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ˜ƒ 1
Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)17:05:52

Thanks for the great, informative and entertaining presentation, Corey!

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)17:05:43

OK, off to hosting a Happy Hour AMA with @pieter.jordaan! Link is: https://tasktop.zoom.us/j/94661630316

cquinn17:05:33

(To be clear, all that stuff mentioned is free. This isn't a sales pitch!)

cquinn17:05:53

Other than to @genek who has to pay up if he wants to get me to stop speaking.

๐Ÿ˜‚ 4
Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)17:05:00

Youโ€™re just going to blame me anyway. It shouldnโ€™t cost him too much.

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:05:43

Plenary Links from Today โ€”โ€”โ€”โ€”โ€”โ€”โ€” P&amp;Gโ€™s DevOps Journeyย withย @colas.aย &ย @olimpia.nittiย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641782 H&amp;M Group โ€“ Integrating Business and Techย withย @daniel.claessonย &ย @jakob.knutsson657ย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641791 From Your Auditor Friends: What We Wish Every Technology Leader Knewย withย @lucasc5ย &ย @lewir7ย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641804 Intelligent Control - Enabling Safety At Speedย withย @leanne.bridgesย &ย @mark.rendellย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704454 Leadership Development in the U.S. Navyย with @jmrichardson1 โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704528 OKRs &amp; DevOps: From Micromanagement Misery to Finding Flowย withย @mikย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=550704601 Incident Analysis โ€“ Your Organizationโ€™s Secret Weaponย withย @noraย โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=551641823 You Suck at Cloud and Itโ€™s [Not] All Your Faultย withย @corey โ€”ย https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=552401856

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Philip Day17:05:41

Going back to incident analysis... we often hear of the shuttle disasters, but here's a potential catastrophe that was successfully (narrowly) averted, for the Cassini/Huygens Saturn probe, c. 2000 https://www.thespacereview.com/article/306/1 https://www.sebokwiki.org/wiki/How_Lack_of_Information_Sharing_Jeopardized_the_NASA/ESA_Cassini/Huygens_Mission_to_Saturn

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John Allspaw17:05:06

Excellent case indeed. What organizations in tech capture near-miss stories like this one?

Philip Day17:05:19

Just as insightful, as we heard from @nora today

John Allspaw18:05:13

for sure - I was just commenting on how rare (if at all) companies look closely at near-miss cases (never mind publish about them) like NASA has, like in this case ๐Ÿ™‚

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]08:05:17

As a (lapsed) private pilot, itโ€™s interesting to reflect on how you read all of the Air Accident Investigation Branch reports including near misses. You learn so much. As you say @allspaw , rare to see orgs do this. https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports

Philip Day08:05:34

@jonathansmart1 we hear a lot about the big failures (Dreamliner, Challenger) in talks and books, but less about the successes. My memory of the tv documentary on Cassini, this engineer persists with his concern and eventually is allowed to prove his point. I wonder what other cases are there of good psychological safety enabling a whistleblower to be heard, concerns acted on, and disaster averted.

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:05:40

for anyone going to happy hoursโ€”making it easy with all the links in one place: https://doesvirtual.com/ama-hh-links