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Ann Perry - IT Revolution16:12:00

Let's welcome @gunther.lenz, here to present: "Digital Transformation "Phoenix" Style in Healthcare"

Dave Zorko16:12:26

Excited for this on @gunther.lenz thanks for presenting

Gunther Lenz, VP Software at BD16:12:25

Thank you, @annp and @dtzorko. I am super excited to share our journey and if there are any questions just shout them out or DM me

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Marc Poulin17:12:14

What kind of resistance, if any, are you getting from the product teams?

Dave Zorko17:12:26

Thank you @gunther.lenz

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Marc Poulin17:12:28


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Gunther Lenz, VP Software at BD17:12:12

Good question. There are different levels of resistance 😉

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Ryan Savage17:12:23

You keep mentioning improving smoke test pass rate - was there a special emphasis on smoke testing vs e2e testing? did you have to shift to get the focus there or was that something you guys started with?

Gunther Lenz, VP Software at BD17:12:02

Firstly, the business wants commitment on the release of a new product 2-3 years in advance. So the typical agile problem is how can we commit to that if we adjust on the way.

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Vlad Ukis17:12:36

Very typical in the world of medical devices!

Marc Poulin17:12:02

I'm in gaming and I have a similar problem on a smaller timeline. XD

Vlad Ukis17:12:43

At least, the reasons are different. In medical devices, it is about regulation.

Vlad Ukis17:12:47

And in gaming?

Marc Poulin17:12:20

Gaming it's mostly for marketing beats. Keeping a good amount of playerbase overtime is important in live service games, regardless of business model (subscription, microtransactions, etc....)

Gunther Lenz, VP Software at BD17:12:07

We try to turn the focus on customer value rather than features, so we have the ability to adjust depth and breadth of what we deliver but can show to solve customer problems

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution17:12:00

Let's welcome @bryan.finster486, here to present, "Minimum Viable Continuous Delivery"

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:37

@ibathazi is one of the core team who’s here as well.

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Gunther Lenz, VP Software at BD17:12:39

we do run smoke and e2e tests. We try to get a better test pyramid shape. We also made sure smoke tests are always passing and can be run very fast

Gunther Lenz, VP Software at BD17:12:44

we also change to a keyword-driven regression test framework and on defining more API based tests. We have too many UI tests that are fragile.

Marc Poulin17:12:51

Let's all do Agile the same way. Beautiful. /s hahahahaah

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:54

I know no one else has ever seen this happen. 🙂

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Ryan Savage17:12:15

dont look at me

Istvan Bathazi17:12:57

automated stagnation

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Carl Chesser17:12:58

Yes, the batch size are large...this has such a large compounding impact.

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:30

So much goodness at the Dockside Bar

Istvan Bathazi17:12:35

post presentation gathering at the bar

Ryan Savage17:12:57

how does one get to this bar?

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:27

Join Gather. It’s the center of the room

Pete Smoot17:12:15

HOw does one order a drink?

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:40

I walk to the liquor cabinet and pour…

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Istvan Bathazi17:12:59

this bar allows to bring yours from your cabinet 🙂

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)17:12:00

It's always 5 o'clock in Gather

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Jonathan Mailhot17:12:46

It's my very first DOES and I've missed out on the Dockside Bar... probably out of shyness... :face_with_peeking_eye:

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:18

The real learning happens at the bar. 😄

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:12:35

No worries @jonathan.mailhot. I struggled sometimes too. This conference is very open and supportive. We strive to break down the "velvet rope" between veterans, speakers and newcomers as much as possible.

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Istvan Bathazi17:12:38

welcome @jonathan.mailhot

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)17:12:22

Joining in Gather may be new to some folks...

Istvan Bathazi17:12:18

CI is the heartbeat of CD

Carl Chesser17:12:26

Reading ❤️ What code coverage percentage should we set as a standard for all teams? We shouldn’t. Code coverage mandates incentivize meaningless tests that hide the fact that code is not tested. It is better to have no tests than to have tests you do not trust. See the on this metric.

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Istvan Bathazi17:12:51

drama driven delivery...

Marc Boudreau17:12:59

> Not some VP saying 'ummm" ...

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Diego León17:12:15

fully agree with presentation, in addition I would say, => incremental

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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:12:04

Challenge accepted @bryan.finster486. I'll head to the Dockside Bar and start working on a 5-point Maturity Model for this... 😉

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Marc Boudreau17:12:47

Do you need a Roadmap?

Marc Boudreau17:12:07

> How many hours does a '5' mean?

Chris Austin17:12:16

For CI I personally prefer to have short-lived feature branches that are frequently merged from main (ideally auto, but opt-in), PR review, with changes only merged to main when the branch is merged from main, the merged tests pass, and the change is approved. Have a resource that might change my mind?

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Jonathan Mailhot17:12:12

That's exactly what we're doing in my team too... super open to anything that could be deemed better.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:38

How often are you merging To the trunk?

Pete Smoot17:12:41

I also don't want to just push the problem downstream to feature flags. Sure I delivered to production but if my code is feature flagged off for a month, did that accomplish anything?

Chris Austin17:12:07

My view has been that all changes are not equal, so a broken build for a low value change should not block a high value change. Same for the forced context shifts from mobbing a problem when the team breaks the build - I'd prefer to choose when that context shift happens. In my context I usually have same-day merge, but some last a few days for some teams (which I'm working on).

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:10

You’ve proven it didn’t break anything.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:32

It’s better to have it flagged off in prod for a month than in a branch for a month.

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Pete Smoot17:12:04

OK, good point.

Pete Smoot17:12:31

Still doesn't seem like what we want. If my feature has been flagged off for a month, I won't dare turn it on in production. How does one get confidence we can safely start rolling out a feature flagged feature?

Jonathan Mailhot17:12:16

Testing would be my guess... but I'm in the same boat as you process-wise..

Chris Austin17:12:04

I love feature flags and especially dark launches. The DevOps Handbook 2e had some excellent notes around that.

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:42

Oh, definitely don’t want it off for a month. I’d start asking why that’s happening and what needs to be fixed. It obviously wasn’t something that needed to be built right then. That’s really the main point. CD exposes these problems and makes us find solutions to improve how we work so we can live better lives.

Chris Austin17:12:41

For the original question - are you aware of any resources that might shift my thinking? This is the one area where I disagreed with DevOps Handbook, and I'd welcome being wrong

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:11

Can you clarify your opinion? 😄

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:35

“so a broken build for a low value change should not block a high value change.” - Why was the low value change first??

Chris Austin17:12:28

Multiple people working on things in the same repo. One low impact, one high impact. I wouldn't want a low impact high complexity change that breaks the build to block a high impact low complexity change. It seems to violate an obsession with time to value and optimizing for cost of delay

Chris Austin17:12:42

The other piece is that I'm not convinced that breaking main/trunk is appropriate. I'd prefer to have the branch merge from main, run the tests and security checks after that merge, and only allow merging to main once the tests pass. That reduces the blast radius while allowing main to be deployable.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:30

Gotcha. First, both of those should be very small changes; a few hours of work at most. Next, the goal of CI is to verify that all of our code integrates cleanly. If the other change is blocking something critical, revert the change. Roll forward isn’t always the answer, but the pipeline must be green. We cannot use workarounds to a broken build. the point is to harden our processes so that we can reliably and safely deliver the next high priority change.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:31

On your other point, CI and TBD don’t mean you cannot branch. It means today’s branch integrates today.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:09

A common struggle is people defaulting to “I merge when the feature is complete”. That’s a behavior that needs to be improved to enable CD.

Chris Austin17:12:31

Yeah, I need to work on some of the culture. I've been gradually getting people to break things into smaller units. What I'm evaluating is the tradeoff between merging to main every day, vs merging from main everyday. For an individual branch the resulting code is the same, the only difference is whether main is broken or the branch is. I'd choose a broken branch in that case. The benefits would have to come from having multiple branches merged in daily, vs having multiple longer branches that race to be merged, making the conflict someone else's problem. That still sounds like the benefit is from small feature branches though, not from the merge to main.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)18:12:25

If everyone is pulling from the trunk, then there is no integration.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)18:12:23

You and I are both pulling from main but main isn’t changing. Then we resolve merge conflicts at the end. 🙂

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)18:12:03

CI requires that we merge. It also requires we are merging code that is tested and not breaking. It doesn’t require complete features.

Chris Austin18:12:40

Will watch the youtube videos btw, thanks for the resource.

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Istvan Bathazi17:12:19

once you lift the rug... you cannot un see them

Diego León17:12:33

“releasable” mvp (skinny skeleton) :face_with_peeking_eye:

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual17:12:37

Something I've encountered on multiple teams: people clinging to manual testing as the ultimate OK. How have folks convinced colleagues to let go of that and let the pipeline decide?

Marc Boudreau17:12:53

Makes me cry ...

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual17:12:49

Wait, was that the answer? 😂 I can get theatrical with the tears if that works 😁

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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:12:08

Manual regression testing or exploratory testing?

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:02

Manual regression testing means they need to test every single path that has ever been tested before and do it 100% accurately every time. I dare them.

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:12:05

Right. I agree that regression testing should be automated. Exploratory testing can be useful though for uncovering new abuse cases. Not sure it should be a gate to every release though...

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:12:37

Depends on risk appetite, I suppose... #context

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual17:12:42

They are adding automated testing, so it's less the manual regression testing stuff... but I think it's going to be hard for some teams to believe the pipeline will catch "all" errors. Which of course it won't.

Ryan Savage17:12:18

i can normally convince them that they aren’t testing 100% of every path and they say - yeah ok its just a happy path sanity type of regression testing. But thats so arbitrary - how do you choose what should or should not fall in that bucket

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual17:12:06

I wonder if there's just some psychological comfort in having a human sign off.

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Carl Chesser17:12:04

Serializing the flow in a VSM so often blows minds when they think they know what all goes on in a delivery flow...

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Istvan Bathazi17:12:25

look at the pain points and relentlessly improve it.

Brandon Baker (IT MGR - O'Reilly Auto Parts)17:12:08

Five languages is pretty amazing to me. Maybe it's due to my lack of visibility to the greater industry, but that seems an impressive feat in a short amount of time.

Brandon Baker (IT MGR - O'Reilly Auto Parts)17:12:08

Five languages is pretty amazing to me. Maybe it's due to my lack of visibility to the greater industry, but that seems an impressive feat in a short amount of time.

Marc Boudreau17:12:27

@bryan.finster486 is a strong leader for this. Don't let him fool you ... it wouldn't be remotely where it is without him specifically!

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Jonathan Mailhot17:12:29

Very like that presentation @bryan.finster486, it triggered something on the "how" and the "why" we are doing certain things. I will definitely look up !

Istvan Bathazi17:12:30

thank you @bryan.finster486! see you at dockside bar 🙂

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:37

People have found value. We’ve receivedfeedback that people are using this as a roadmap.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)17:12:29

Hopefully people using that will share their stories and progress

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)17:12:44

Thank you @bryan.finster486 for sharing the great work on!!

Darin Patrick17:12:00

Great conversation @bryan.finster486!

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Chris Ellis (Lockheed Martin)17:12:12

Manual testing = inadequate testing

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:12:24

We will be a Dockside if anyone wants to chat.

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Reminder: The breakout sessions are starting again in 5 minutes. Get in front of your browser and start navigating your way to whichever session you’re attending.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution18:12:00

Welcome @carl.chesser, here to present, "Navigating Change with Communities of Practice"

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Carl Chesser18:12:15

Hi Everyone 👋 I'm excited to be joining you here today! Looking forward to chatting and answering any questions you have.

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Carl Chesser18:12:48

I felt this became very true in the last few years, where you have to continually put energy in externalizing what challenges are being encountered by teams. When we were in the office al the time, it was often to see and hear more adhoc exchanges when things weren't working...

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:12:38

Thank you for presenting today, @carl.chesser !!!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:12:58

Was so excited that you submitted this story, @carl.chesser !

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Carl Chesser18:12:19

Was so glad I was able to join!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:12:49

I love these stories about how to better span silo boundaries — this is the area of study that Spear and I have been spending so much time exploring, including in our presentation later today!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:12:27

Interfaces: not just for software architecture!

Jonathan Mailhot18:12:28

About this, how to maximize knowledge sharing without sending too much information throughout too many media (emails, direct messages, newsletter, etc.)?

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Carl Chesser18:12:59

I touch on this later in presentation...which is what I call a CHANGELOG.

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Carl Chesser18:12:20

This is similar to making a easy to "grok" on content, in a predictable format on a predictable schedule.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:12:35

There was a fascinating treatment of this in the Stack Overflow talks — I was joking about how searching Slack is a pretty poor way to share knowledge, but a daily reality for me. :)

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Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:32

Just the other day I had a build problem I hadn't seen before. Searched Slack and found the solution... in a post from two years ago.

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Vlad Ukis19:12:07

Looks like a good opportunity to build a slack app for search 🙂

Hossain Mohammad19:12:36

Vertical bottom-up communication is not always easy

Carl Chesser19:12:24

Yes, one thing we have found valuable is ensuring certain CoP members have time to communicate topics in existing team meetings with leadership. This helps recognize content and topics with peers, and ensures leaders in their space can see value.

Marc Poulin19:12:50

Any recommendations for management communities of practice? From the ones I've been in, it seems hard to get everyone on the same page.

Carl Chesser19:12:18

This is difficult when you find those interested have many responsibilities. The way I have found it valuable is having two different ways of engaging with direct teams in one part of the organization (ex. every other week), and then rolling up sessions in a larger session (monthly). Then trying to make sure there is an easy engagement pattern that could be outside of these sessions. For example, that can be a RFC process that is lightweight (ex. GitHub issues) that try to help share discussions.

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Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:05

Anyone else losing the video every few minutes? Or just me? (I suspect it's me)

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:05

Anyone else losing the video every few minutes? Or just me? (I suspect it's me)

Marc Poulin19:12:24

I've had intermittent loading throughout the event. But no actual downtime.

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:10

I have too, but it's gotten 10x worse in the past half hr. Probably local...

Pete Smoot19:12:41

Audio pauses on me all the time.

Pete Smoot19:12:50

I assumed it was my devices.

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:16

Well, this was going to be on my list of talks to re-watch anyway, so 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:12:06

FWIW, @alex this talk has been playing well on my iPad — 

Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:31

Hmm. Husband just texted me with "I was paging through a large postgres query result earlier, is it better now?"

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Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:23

So I think the issue may have been on my side. So far John's talk has only had one blip, instead of one per minute

Pete Smoot19:12:57

He's not paging results, he's binging Wednesday without telling you. :)

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Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual19:12:45

For what it's worth... buffering started happening again around 10 minutes in, so I switched to the prerecorded version of the same video and moved to the same point, it's been ok so far.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:12:58

Fascinating all the ways that certain conversations stop happening as groups that larger — I'm really appreciating how you're pointing this out, and describing countermeasures. What is biggest evidence you've seen that people value these novel mechanisms?

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Carl Chesser19:12:37

Just based on my own observations in the larger group sessions, I was typically only getting feedback from a routine set of people in that larger group - which was inhibiting how much was getting shared. Once you get into a form (small group), you start getting people to at least share and increase the opportunity to speak (it's hard to be quiet in a small group).

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:12:23

What have you heard from other people who were taking part? I'm so curious to what extent they appreciate all this effort to create these obviously important mechanisms, that otherwise normally wouldn't exist!

Carl Chesser19:12:21

Something that I do as part of these sessions, is bake in time at the end for a survey to get feedback from the larger group. What I found was that surveys when just sent out via email were not getting much responses, but when baked into the time of the meeting for people to fill out, I would get a higher percentage of feedback. In these surveys, I would just ask: What feedback do you have on doing break-out sessions? And I have consistently received that people want to continue those, they value being able to elect into topics upfront.

Carl Chesser19:12:55

Another part I think has been helpful, is connecting back on what was shared from the small group, to the larger group session, and what actions occur as a result. I have seen where people are less engaged in smaller group session if they don't understand how this connect or what actions are taken afterwards.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair23:12:15

Thank you!! I’ll be reaching out with some more questions!! Awesome!

Carl Chesser23:12:56

Definitely - I can probably get some more data so it is bit more objective.

Carl Chesser19:12:24

I found it really valuable to find ways to have these smaller group sessions, because you can encounter echo chambers or not getting a diverse set of opinions sharing.

Jonathan Mailhot19:12:06

I guess it helps at not having always the same people talk or express their opinions?

Carl Chesser19:12:04

Yes, the more I think you can mix who is sharing, which of course requires engaging with people early on speaking - the better. This often is easier when help reduce the burden on sharing content (short amount of time, don't work on building some new ppt).

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Ryan Taylor, Application Architect, Axim Geospatial19:12:05

Any guidance on getting leadership buy-in to support internal communities, including setting aside time and $ for people to attend?

Ryan Taylor, Application Architect, Axim Geospatial19:12:55

We've had "lunch and learns" but at the moment, that's considered your own time, and it's understandable difficult to get people to spend their own precious time in these sessions.

Carl Chesser19:12:04

They can start in a bottoms-up / grassroots type effort, but can quickly start highlighting value when you get quotes from people participating in the value. So, it can almost feel like applying product management approaches on your group in how you advertise these back to the leadership in having these groups. They sometimes feel compelled to participate, if you share how this is working in one part of the organization and if they want to also have members join.

Carl Chesser19:12:49

I also found it helpful in how I tried to share my thanks back to those who present, which can be from a platform team advertising a new change that they are looking for adoption / feedback. In that thank you, I include both their manager and their executive on why we appreciated this and some concrete reasons on why it was helpful. In several cases, we would see them engage more as a result.

Carl Chesser19:12:48

While it might seem very basic, here are some of the notes that I follow in communicating this back to ensure contributors get further recognition and getting awareness with their leadership:

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Ryan Taylor, Application Architect, Axim Geospatial19:12:12

Excellent, thank you for your insight! Great talk too!

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Vlad Ukis19:12:27

@carl.chesser how often do you use those thank-you emails?

Carl Chesser19:12:26

Usually I do these from our larger group sessions, which is more around monthly. These do not take that much time to do, if you do them immediately after the event - else, I find I don't to them consistently. Sometimes I draft them up as they are presenting, so it is sent close to the event.

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution19:12:00

Let's welcome, @botchagalupe (John Willis) here to present, "Out of the Cyber Crisis - What Would Deming Do?"

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Lucy Softich, IT Revolution (she/her)19:12:53

Get your free copy of the Investments Unlimited e-book, while supplies last!

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Erwin Will - CarMax19:12:33

I have the audio book version and it is great. I highly recommend the book

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Marc Poulin19:12:06

Saving that data quote XD

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Arun Chawla19:12:11

This happened in India last week

Carl Chesser19:12:25

Enumerated (how many) | Analytical (the why) ❤️

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Carl Chesser19:12:11

Would you think the focus of initiatives with OKRs (how we plan to achieve the objective) is better to advertise, knowing "the why" is extremely important for people to stay connected with the work, knowing that methods may get refined, but the objective staying true?

Carl Chesser19:12:34

I have seen it valuable when we find the initiative that isn't as effective when we measure it to the objective, where it takes either a change - but the method is continually refined within the context of the objective (which shares the why).

Marc Poulin19:12:42

It's also interesting because managers, especially at higher levels, have to manage people who are much better at figuring out the method than they are. That's where I can see OKR really being powerful.

Carl Chesser19:12:59

Right. I have seen it where an initiative of "what we are doing" is the only thing, and when that thing is done, it is viewed as success. However, the outcome is truly achieved (or measured).

Haendel Dorfeuille19:12:29

Seems to be more about how but not why! Am I getting this right?

Chris Donahue19:12:22

Thanks*@botchagalupe As always, I enjoyed your talk.*

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