Fork me on GitHub
John Cutler04:10:16

Thanks @jessicam

Robyn Talbert, American Airlines15:10:54

🙋 Roll call! Who else is here?

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Andy Burton15:10:54

Using Track 1 for the Opening Remarks?


HI, @scott.prugh and @ken.kennedy! Looking forward to your session in about an hour!!! So delighted you’re sharing your story!!!

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John Cutler15:10:49

here. Though our connection just went down, so streaming on my phone

Ken Kennedy15:10:49

glad to be here!

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)15:10:14

Yeah. The streaming dropped and forced me to log back in...

Carter McHugh (He/Him)15:10:15

@ken.kennedy @scott.prugh Can't wait to hear from you! Looking forward to your talk.

Ken Kennedy15:10:22

no streaming issues here. is there any audio playing at the moment.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)15:10:38

Hello @cmchugh!! We miss you!

John Cutler15:10:48

(to clarify, our local service provider is down, lol)

Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:47

Glad to be back! It's almost like the UK summit was last week....


Hello! I’m here while my introductory remarks are playing — happy to answer any questions!!! 🙂

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PS: holy cow, the difference in this launch vs. our first conference in June is like night and day. (For starters, pieces of the airplane aren’t falling off during the take-off run. 🙂

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:10:32

Morning! Question: any of the unicorns of 2014 behaving like horses now?

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Great question! Off the top of my head, I’m thinking about 30% have “regressed,” usually due to a change at the top of the tech org. 😭 😭 😭

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:10:49

One of the unicors has a funny 1984 like story @ffion and I were told a year ago fit for maybe virtual happy hour. Must be in the 30%


We laugh, because we cannot cry, right?

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)15:10:43

Is it regressing or remaining? I saw agile flushed by new management and there are no two pieces intact in that puzzle after that. However flushing the CD from version control is a bold move rarely seen.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:10:20

Are you saying some horses got to it at better times and overran them? @ferrix

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)15:10:38

I am saying that culture is demolished but some of the assets remaining will erode.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)15:10:51

Also, it takes more to be a unicorn than it used to :unicorn_face:

Jack Vinson - flow15:10:17

Funny thought: The "bottom" complains that the "top" need to be more and more involved. But the "top" often complain that they cannot get anything done with out participation from the "bottom".

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^^^ Some amazing insight on this phenomenon from the CrossLead team (@david627 and @jessica.reif) later today, and @steve773 tomorrow!

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host15:10:25

Thanks for sharing that “Experience Report” format Gene. I can reuse that for a webinar I’m doing next week.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:11

Would be a good little blog post to publish that format and explain why you use it.


“…then took advantage of a crisis that presented itself, leading to a rebellion of their own.” The theme of “never waste a crisis” shows up so many times in talks this year!!!

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Ron S15:10:31

Hard to hear with video sound playing over Gene

Javier Magaña - Walmart15:10:49

I only hear Gene, no sound

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@patrick.debois256 @jeff.gallimore

Ron S15:10:09

Silly Firefox ... new tab opened an "auto play" Sorry for the noise

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:10:20

For those looking for the “full screen” option on the video player, refresh the page and you should have that option in the lower right of the player now.

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host15:10:39

oh so that’s where “scenius” comes from. Makes more sense for those Idealcast episodes 😄

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist15:10:54

Genius created by scenius... that is great. Seems like blameless post mortems would be a big part of success there.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:27

👏 for the programming committee!

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(Holy crap. I just learned that @alex and @patrick.debois256 just pushed an HTML change just now for the Watch page to enable full screen video. 🤯🤯🤯 Thanks to that, you can now watch video in full screen!!!)

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Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)15:10:50

haha... tested in production. it works.

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Patrick Debois15:10:13

hey - first tested in staging 🤡

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:10:30

@rikard has whatsapped to tell us before you did!:) how cool. Reality TV of DevOps


I’m still reeling for this story…

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host15:10:15

Gene, video cuts are rare. How many takes did you need? 😄


None. It must be your network. Hahahaha. (Real answer: many. 🙂

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host15:10:11

Great editing then 😄 I produce some videos so it’s all interesting to see how other get on that regard. :thumbsup::skin-tone-3:


Thanks @patrick.debois256 for helping us keep this virtual event running smoothly! Your paranoia and aplomb are always a source of awe and amazement!!!

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Nick Eggleston15:10:36

Hi @robyn.talbert I'm here. Greetings from Indy!

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)15:10:53

In a few minutes, please welcome our opening plenary, speakers @ross.clanton508 and @maya.leibman for Q&A! @ross.clanton410

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PS: @adam: I used Descript to edit some of the footage (and Idealcast podast). It’s freaking amazing. You edit the text, and it cuts the audio/video. It is incredible. There was a segment I did for London with @mik and Dr. Carlota Perez that required over 300 cuts — could not have done it w/o Descript.

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host15:10:36

@genek101 indeed. I’ve used that for SO much faster compared to editing raw wave forms

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:10:39

Been looking forward to hearing from @ross.clanton508 and @maya.leibman - sounds like quite the story

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Maya Leibman15:10:25

Thanks @me1342! @ross.clanton410 and I are excited to be here.


Thank you in advance for modifying your Slack profile, to help enable even better, more serendipitous and mutually exothermic interactions!


(I’m talking to you, @me1342 🙂

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Alyssa Lundgren - Centil - Product Owner15:10:25

Thanks for having us, @genek101!

Luke Rettig - Target15:10:26

ask the speaker was by far the best feature and collaboration about London IMO. Excited to engage with all of you again in this way!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:00

and #ask-the-speaker-more is a great addition

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Mark Fuller15:10:53

Good morning @ken.kennedy and @scott.prugh! Nice to see you on here and I look forward to hearing the lastest from you.

Nick Eggleston15:10:01

How long after the conference before the videos are released to YouTube?


We’re hoping to have all videos publicly viewable by end of conference. It’s a NYTimes-style paygate — watch up to X videos for free. We’re planning on publishing a portion to YouTube.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)15:10:28

Yeah, interrupting the speaker with a question is okay and not rude at all virtually. Love it!

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Nick Eggleston15:10:52

@jeff.gallimore How do new BOF sessions get created, if there's interest?

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)16:10:43

@nickeggleston post the topic in #birds-of-a-feather to gauge interest. then if you want to host something, bring your own Zoom account — just post a link. that said, if the topic is close enough to one of the existing BoF themes, you might just bring it into one of those sessions to get instant traction.

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems15:10:59

@patrick.debois256 I remember at the end of London's conference, you asked for feedback on things that could make the video player better. I noticed those improvements! Thanks for working hard on those!

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Patrick Debois15:10:45

thanks Daniel, and welcome back !

Dave Stanke - DORA.dev15:10:16

I plan to interrupt with more of a comment than a question

Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:42

That Guy on his phone will never live that down...

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Nick Eggleston15:10:47

@dominica for Lean Coffee, will we be able to wander easily into different coffee circles in the Zoom tool?


what's the link for the presentations?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:25

Or did you mean the GitHub link for the Slides?

Nick - developer at BNPP15:10:47

Hello. I don’t see the bof- channels in slack. Will they be created later?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:10:33

They are all in there...#bof

Sheetal Iyer15:10:42

You should see them when you search on bof

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect15:10:01

Where is the drop box? Slides?

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)16:10:52

@chris.gallivan Do you have the link?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:10:09

Here's the link to view the presentations, aka the WATCH page:


PS: I’m such a huge fan of the video library — all the London videos are in there, too. And I’ve used it so much in the last couple of weeks, to help prepare for this conference!

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Steve Spear15:10:42

Hi Ann. Thanks for the watch link. For what it is worth, that link is hard to find in the ITRev website, on the events.itrev page etc.

Steve Spear15:10:29

Hi Ann. But…I am on line and logged in today. Yay!

Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:10:57

Looking forward to your two sessions!!

Steve Spear15:10:15

Me too. I hope they don’t suck. 🙂

Camilo Piedrahita - Bancolombia - IT Manager15:10:19

do we have access to the videos and slides only 7 days?

Ross Clanton15:10:41

Super excited to kick things off... 🎉

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)15:10:04

Awesome intros @genek101 and @jeff.gallimore!

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thankyou 1

Please welcome our first set of amazing speakers!!! @ross.clanton410 and @maya.leibman from American Airlines!!!!

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Luke Rettig - Target15:10:50

@ross.clanton508 - OG - I miss you at Target

Ross Clanton16:10:02

Miss you too Luke. Glad to see you here at the conference.

Levi Geinert16:10:07

We all miss Ross!

Maya Leibman16:10:30

@lucas.rettig Why don't you come to American Airlines and work with Ross here?!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:43

“That’s a load of 2020” < 😆

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“That is a load of 2020”. — @maya.leibman 😂😂😂😂

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:57

What a crock of 2020

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:15

“The full Gene Kim experience” < tell us more!

Nick Eggleston16:10:15

@maya.leibman where inside the org the excitement for DevOps transformation origninate?

Maya Leibman16:10:33

@nickeggleston The excitement is both top down and bottoms up. We have terrific leaders who are paving the way and we have a lot of grass-roots practitioners who are filled with infectious enthusiasm.

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)16:10:52

@maya.leibman Looking forward to no more mainframes 😉

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:54

"Deliver Value Faster" 💯

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:48

You’d think safer would’ve made the cut :)

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines16:10:11

I have had the joy (and tears!) of being a part of what @maya.leibman is talking about right now. Awesome!

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Ana Torres (American Airlines)16:10:25

Me too! It's awesome to hear the journey we've been on here at American

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“[Hearing the business complain about IT taking so long] just killed me…” — @maya.leibman

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans16:10:05

That's my old team! FlightHub for the win!

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Lucas Melo (American Airlines Architect)16:10:32

@mattmasuda!!! Long time no speak 🙂

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans16:10:11

Hope things are going well for you!

Lucas Melo (American Airlines Architect)16:10:59

Going good! Thanks, same to you!

Javier Magaña - Walmart16:10:28

Maximum.... so waterfall?

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:30

Don’t get me started with the mvp!

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:48

I’ve heard it all ...mvp1,mvp2

Ana Torres (American Airlines)16:10:02

that's totally true on the business advocates story!

Jack Vinson - flow16:10:05

Value Stream mapping - learning from each other about how work REALLY happens!


“Our business interpreted MVP to mean Maximum Viable Product”" — so amazing, @maya.leibman!!! I just love love love your story!!!

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)16:10:09

@maya.leibman how long ago did you start this journey?

Maya Leibman16:10:38

@denee.ferguson We started really talking about this in earnest about 4 years ago

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:23

@maya.leibman @ross.clanton410: what was the most successful self-paced learning?

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Maya Leibman16:10:43

@jtf Udemy has been super helpful for us

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:52

Thanks @maya.leibman. I was wondering if there was a particular course or set of courses on Udemy that you feel had the biggest impact?

Ross Clanton16:10:12

We set learning journeys, curating various courses for different roles/skills. We could deep dive on this more in our networking session this afternoon if there is more interest...

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Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)16:10:25

@maya.leibman What was the make up of the team(s) that went through value stream mapping exercises? All Devs? Devs + QA? DevOps engineers? Who else?

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines16:10:51

The ones I personally led were a combination that depended on the team. If there were DevOps engineers they were engaged, but the team breakout was product team specific. If they had QAs we had them involved since their work factored into the current value stream.

Ana Torres (American Airlines)16:10:28

We try to have both business and IT in the room - lots of a-ha's in the process...

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Ross Clanton16:10:37

+ product / business stakeholders...

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Maya Leibman16:10:20

Whole product teams!

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:31

Ah. Yes. Finance: Friend or Foe?

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:53

@maya.leibman, @ross.clanton508: How do you get out of business case death spiral?

Ross Clanton16:10:15

stay tuned. Maya is about to answer that question in the talk 🙂

Ross Clanton16:10:32

The short answer is get Finance to help you lead the transformation...

Maya Leibman16:10:51

You really need forward thinking people in Finance. Have your folks call our folks

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional16:10:56

"A process designed to make you give up" 💯

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Luke Rettig - Target16:10:05

such a reality… I used to be told “make your finance partner your friend” quickly followed by “keep your friends close and your enemies closer” back in the day

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:01

Ours was 1.5 years from request to approval ! Same process


“Our financial approval process so was painful that it deterred people to ask for money. Projects often finished before funding was approved. Even Finance knew things needed to change.” — @maya.leibman. (Sorry for mangling the quote.)

Nick Eggleston16:10:46

How did you convince funding/finance to change?

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans16:10:56

Drunk & disorderly... I mean, they weren't wrong 😛

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Nick Eggleston16:10:58

IT "drunk and disorderly" lol

Nick Eggleston16:10:20

How did they bucket the spends? Grow, Run, xx? (33% each?)

Jack Vinson - flow16:10:56

It sounded like 1/3 Grow, and 2/3 Run.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:51

PS: just found this picture from Velocity 2013 conference where I met @ross.clanton410 !

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Ross Clanton16:10:21

ROFL... That's where we met. That day completely changed the course of my career... 🙏 @genek

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:13

Right back at you, buddy!!!

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Levi Geinert16:10:08

And the course of DevOps for the Whole Community!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:23

"Assigned all the costs, build and run" 💯

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host16:10:06

“you mean I can just do” 💯


“Do whatever it takes to make your product awesome.” “People were like, ’You mean, I don’t need to write [an onerous] ‘5 Point’ to execute on this initiative?!?” — @maya.leibman 😂🎉

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Nick Eggleston16:10:36

and a 5 tab excel spreadsheet with all future costs and resource identified for the next 5 years

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)16:10:33

reminiscent of Mike Lord's presentation on "The Alignment Trap"

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:40

What metrics were you measuring and are you now measuring @ross.clanton508 @maya.leibman?

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Ross Clanton17:10:29

Just getting back up to this question. Hopefully our evolution of measurements (inputs -> outputs -> outcomes) answered this.

Luke Rettig - Target16:10:59

amazing to see year 1 to year 3 and the metrics Maya is showing. I’m interested in year 4 and 5 🙂


— @maya.leibman “The outcomes we want: • Make money • Improve Ops • Increase LTR • Reduce cost” vs. “# of people we sent to Agile training”. cc @mik (The Nokia Trap!!!)

Patrick Gill, Product Owner - American Airlines17:10:24

The big KPIs are around frequency of airline-grounding problems and the time to restore and then vulnerability management. If those are in check, we're in a manageable spot

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:04

@maya.leibman "Agile is not the goal - focus on the outcome"

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EmanuelMedina - Bancolombia16:10:28

Hi, How did you do in order to sense the outcomes per project, overall?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:50

“fix it as we go” < an incremental approach? seems quite agile of you. 😄

Nick Eggleston16:10:55

Can we pause the video so @ross.clanton508 and @maya.leibman can catch up with the Q&A? 😅

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Brian Crossman - Digital Thread at RTX16:10:07

@maya.leibman Change the finance model to empower the teams to pivot and adapt to meet OKRs - brilliant!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:18

"Do it. Try it. Fix it." - Sam Walton

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Luke Rettig - Target16:10:11

such a fan of Sam Walton quotes and thought… coming from a Target guy…

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:29

He was DevOps in the 60s

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:36

❤️ roles vs titles

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“Tortured discussions.” I love it. So good. It’s such a wonderful description of this dynamic… @maya.leibman

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:17

How has the management role evolved @maya.leibman ?

Maya Leibman16:10:50

Leaders are there to remove impediments from the product teams!

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:41

I thought you’d say that!

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:09

Something like this ...

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Jeffrey Price16:10:33

What was the methodology/taxonomy behind your cost mapping exercise? Curious, did you use/implement or leverage TBM? @maya.leibman

Ross Clanton16:10:46

We created a taxonomy of products (oriented around experiences & capabilities) then mapped funding to the products & product groups.

Jeffrey Price16:10:13

Thanks. That sounds significantly more granular than TBM. It was difficult to read the slides in the live presentation, I will definitely take a closer look.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:52

Yeah @ross.clanton508!!! Our celebrity!!


Introducing @ross.clanton410!!!

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Luke Rettig - Target16:10:38

thats the Ross i know!

Luke Rettig - Target16:10:10

Slamming Sky Five!

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Jack Vinson - flow16:10:03

Looks like the bar I imagine at Unicorn Project.

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Nick Eggleston16:10:08

@maya.leibman how big was the core team driving the change?

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Maya Leibman16:10:43

We didn't leave anyone behind. We asked everyone to participate (all 4,000!). Initially we didn't have any central team leading it. Now with Ross we have about 30 people (including coaches) who are pushing.

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Nick Eggleston16:10:06

What was the role (or roles) of those making the invitiation to 4000 people, and what was the resonse from that large community initially?

Jared Riley16:10:26

One of the most difficult parts of a transformation is not leaving anyone behind. easy to just say jump on or your OUT!. lol

Nick Eggleston16:10:36

@ross.clanton410 the wild unicorn

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:03

@ben.burbank tell us about the Hangar.

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Ana Torres (American Airlines)16:10:47

Come to our networking breakout later this afternoon. 🙂

Ross Clanton16:10:27

Hangars ROCK!!!!!

Ben Burbank (American Airlines)16:10:02

@chris.gallivan Looking forward to seeing you there!

Ben Burbank (American Airlines)16:10:41

@chris.gallivan, did you have a specific question in mind?

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:27

No just looking for you!

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Brian Crossman - Digital Thread at RTX16:10:09

12 pizza meetings - often to make one key decision (or none at all). Not what empowerment looks like...

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Maya Leibman16:10:33

Continuous improvement!

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Larry Abel - PnC DevOps at USAA16:10:13

Agree @maya.leibman! Kudos to you for having the courage to start where you are!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:37

@ross.clanton410: how do you measure/monitor cultural progress?

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Ross Clanton16:10:38

I'd love to say we have that one figured out, but we're still working it. Very open to ideas on how to do it though.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:15

One question we used at TIM was in a survey asking something like “Do you believe there is mutual trust and respect within your team?” … across teams? … between departments? In our first survey we had a very low baseline. When that came up we felt we were making progress. < @ross.clanton410

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Nick Eggleston16:10:20

PSA: Passionate, Selfless, Accountable

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Victor Suarez16:10:36

@ross.clanton508, in your Operating Excellence track, were any changes implemented in the HR group to assist with the transformation?

Misty (American Airlines)16:10:31

We have HR representatives on each working group, but we haven't made changes in the HR group yet. Mainly, we don't feel those artificial constructs are holding us back...yet.

Ross Clanton16:10:08

These tracks are very cross-functional w/IT, business, HR, etc.. all involved.

Victor Suarez16:10:49

Thank you. Great talk and amazing progress!

Javier Magaña - Walmart16:10:49

"How you do something is as important as what you do."

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)16:10:55

@ross.clanton508 - who is your Inner Source evangelist ?

Ross Clanton16:10:58

We have a bunch of evangelists. We plan to discuss Innersource later at our networking session this afternoon. You should come check it out...

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines16:10:56

Shout out to the culture working team at AA who helped create this!!! PSA

Nick Eggleston16:10:00

How is as important as what you do

Vince Fabro - Insight Digital Innovation16:10:02

I love seeing the pre-Covid pics of people actually working close together. The good ol' days. 😞

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Maya Leibman16:10:28

I know - isn't it so weird to see people next to each other?!?

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Vince Fabro - Insight Digital Innovation16:10:19

It is. BTW... I consulted there the last half of 2019 and first half of 2020. Good times.


I love this amazing story from @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton410 —

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:48

Action and doing!! @ross.clanton508


“Value action over meetings”

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Luke Rettig - Target16:10:41

might have been Ross that implemented “Make Decisions, Not Decks”

Luke Rettig - Target16:10:52

i still have the sign hanging in my conference room

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Nick Eggleston16:10:52

How has COVID impacted the transition and organization? What's been good/bad about it, and where has AA embraced RemoteWork?

Maya Leibman16:10:37

In many ways we've gotten more productive with COVID. People enjoy having the heads down time. But we also need the ability for teams to come together and we've started bringing folks back in order to get the best of both worlds

Nick Eggleston16:10:03

Collaboration over Silos!

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:42

Start finishing and stop starting!! @ross.clanton508 @dominica

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Adam Furtado, Chief of Platform, Kessel Run (USAF)16:10:56

@ross.clanton410, how are you dealing with listening to your own voice right now? I am in a panic thinking about how I need to sit in this Slack and listen to my own voice tomorrow for 30 minutes. I've avoided listening to my own voice for decades and somehow Gene has disrupted that. :man-gesturing-no::man-facepalming:

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:00

Maybe just read the comments and reply without having the video playing? 😄

Ross Clanton16:10:51

It's kinda weird to hear it for the first time live. Y'all are keeping me busy with Q&A though so it's more like background noise 🙂

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Turn the sound way down!

Ross Clanton16:10:32

Shout out to @schmark

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Nick Eggleston16:10:34

What struggles were there in trying to work across hierarchies? often there is some turf issue...

Maya Leibman16:10:11

We're definitely still working on that. Change is hard. The words we're using is "Empower teams and try not to put our personal leadership stamp on everything"

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:39

@ross.clanton508 to help people live those values/principles for scaling, at what stage did you need to change the personal incentive/reward system?

Ross Clanton16:10:36

The PSA values are relatively new in our transformation. We had a previous set, but these simplified them further. now working on the incentives/rewards around it..

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Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:15

I love them. At Barclays we found that, in the end, line management often have more discretion than they realise and whilst the "late majority" population make noice about the incentive system it perhaps was not as much of a blocker as sometimes presented.

James Patrick - Truist16:10:48

@maya.leibman great to see you again, at least virtually. We met and chatted back in the day, in your old job, on the One World MegaDO. Glad to see you excelling in your IT role.

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BTW, it was awesome seeing @ross.clanton410 and @maya.leibmanin the beautiful American Airlines studio — we recorded remotely, assisted by the capable AA AV crew.

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist16:10:49

Did you remember to put the tray tables up and return the seat back to its full upright position when you were done?

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist16:10:02

It's fine to have a Napoleon costume... its the complex that is the problem. 😉

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Anna Noak (she/her) - IT Revolution16:10:40

Here is the link to The Seat at the Table: And the eBook is currently on sale for $2.99!

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Manny Avila - Consulting Engineer, Cloud and Datacenter - JD Finish Line16:10:54

Ross mentioned two book titles....does anyone recall the titles?

William Hosbein16:10:41

A Seat at the Table War and Peace and IT

Anna Noak (she/her) - IT Revolution16:10:15

The eBook is currently on sale for $2.99!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:10:57

@maya.leibman and @ross.clanton508 I had a couple of questions of where you are in terms of the thinking on how to encourage speaking up and if impression management is a concern but they can wait, you're utterly -and expectedly- overran with questions today - you'll be answering these for days 😂

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:00

@ross.clanton410 "There are no requirements" ❤️

Steven Bauer - Enterprise Agile Coach with Slalom Consulting16:10:18

I love getting new book recommendations from @ross.clanton508

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Chris Movick16:10:23

I missed what OKR is, can someone fill me in?

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host16:10:36

@chris.movick “Measure what Matters” is the best place to start with ORKs.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:10:05

I have a non-popular opinion of OKRs when they are used as a mindless replacement or when they eskew the people work -which they too often do-

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:51

Pretty sure I agree with your opinion. OKRs are not individual performance metrics.

Yann Le Tiec16:10:39

Objectives & Key Results

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)16:10:42

"The way leaders are engaged aren't through status meetings." @ross.clanton508


“The only sustainable competitive advantage is an organization’s ability to learn and adapt faster than the competition” — @schmark

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Jack Vinson - flow16:10:58

OKR = Objectives and Key Results

Rajat Sud16:10:00

What are some example OKRs?

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Chris Movick16:10:14

Thanks for the quick response 😀

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional16:10:46

I see what you did there 😉

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“To enable safe travel, we need customers to be able to have touchless kiosk check-in, even if they have bags” — @ross.clanton410

Jack Vinson - flow16:10:04

Would love to hear some examples of what "empowerment" really looks like. It can be a buzzword. But it might be representative of something deeper (that we want)

Maya Leibman16:10:47

@jackvinson We still struggle with this. The words we use are "empower teams and try not to put your own personal leadership stamp on everything." We just need leaders to realize their job is to remove impediments. And need to control trying to change what the team is doing.

Jack Vinson - flow16:10:49

I liked that value statement. It implies more of the in-service-to mentality, rather than having to prove "my" value (as a leader).

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:35

I like the line from Team of Teams : eyes on, hands off. Teams need to provide transparency, and that transparency allows leadership to let the teams make decisions. Then it is the job of the leaders to endorse those decisions to reinforce that the team had the authority to make the decision.

Adam Furtado, Chief of Platform, Kessel Run (USAF)16:10:07

I enjoy Christina Wodtke's take on OKRs in 'Radical Focus'

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)16:10:10

@maya.leibman @ross.clanton508 Do your (network) infrastructure teams also utilize the product focused model?

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Patrick Gill, Product Owner - American Airlines17:10:40

Definitely making a push towards IaaS but in the meantime they function as platform products


145% increase in boarding pass cans, 17 sec reduction in checkin time (huge improvement for people who would otherwise wait in lines!)

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Jason Nelson - Centil - product agility coach16:10:43

"ditched the release calendar" - this is music to my ears

inactive16:10:51 crazy North Star goal: PR results in production deploy in an hour: “literally, people were laughing all around the room.”

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:41

@jason.johs @asgeir.olafsson @erica.morrison Lets do this!! PR to prod in 1 hour!!

Jason Johs16:10:32

"Ditch the release calendar" :)

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Asgeir Olafsson16:10:57

Sounds good 🙂

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:00

Love the “kata” @james.simon1

Steven Bauer - Enterprise Agile Coach with Slalom Consulting16:10:23

I love those audacious goals, particularly when you achieve them 😉

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“code deployment lead times dropped from 3 weeks to one hour. 40 deployments in last month”

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional16:10:01

Lead Time for changes 3 wks -> 1 hr 😮

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Brian Crossman - Digital Thread at RTX16:10:15

@ross.clanton508 @maya.leibman Thanks for sharing the setbacks as well as the successes. Each transformation journey has common patterns, irrespective of is strangely reassuring to hear we are not alone.

Steve Jones - He/Him16:10:57

commercial off the shelf software - bought from vendor

Maya Leibman16:10:03

Commercial Off the Shelf

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:04

Commercial Off The Shelf software

Maya Leibman16:10:43

Shout out to the entire AA IT team who made all this happen!

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Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans16:10:48

Kubernetes at AA? Ok, I'm impressed

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Brandon Brown - Nike - Sr. SW Engineer II16:10:50

@ross.clanton410 how big a role did automated testing make in this transition to CD?

Steven Leist16:10:51

It was a key part of our success. Breaking the deployments into smaller chunks and driving testing automation were two necessary hurdles we had to overcome to get to CD.

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Rasika V16:10:31

commercial off the shelf software - bought from vendor

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On Legacy COTS: Loyalty product runs on Siebel CRM: 50+ automated deploys! (This is amazing!!!). “Conversation changed w/business: business often waiting for changes; now we can deploy more frequently and faster than they can accept. Now business/product team trying to optimize end to end experience.” Awesome!

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Sara Gramling16:10:49

COTS = Commercial off the Shelf

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:16

Words matter ... a lot

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:36

I love this: "We need to shorten lines at the airport" instead of "I want to create a pop-up..."

Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist16:10:41

Thanks AA for all the things done this year related to frequent flyer extensions. Tough to maintain levels when you can't travel.

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I think what @maya.leibman is saying right now will be what will be taught in all next-gen MBA programs, or in wherever leaders go to learn what they need to learn. Thank you!!!

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)16:10:31

I hope it gets taught... the alternative makes me cry.

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host16:10:01

I can take this straight to higher ups in my company. Framing is really important. My gut tells me this will really help product owners collaborate with engineering.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)16:10:41

I already pinged the whole management team on company Slack about this... publicly 😄

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:10:41

@maya.leibman @ross.clanton410 Curious if your leadership focus leans more Transformational Leadership or Servant Leadership focused (or if you emphasize different things at different leadership levels)? I'm having this debate within my org right now. A potential trade-off we're having is the pendulum swing from prescriptive to servant leadership is creating a gap in people focused on vision and strategy.

Ross Clanton17:10:25

I think it's a bit of both. Transformational in how we focus on vision and outcomes. Probably more Servant in terms of how we want leaders engaging with and supporting thier teams.

Ross Clanton17:10:42

The job of each of the layers above the team is to remove the impediments that the teams are facing.

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)16:10:27

Continue the conversation after this presentation and visit #bof-american-airlines cc: @ross.clanton410 @maya.leibman

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:29

now I need a wookie mask…. can I expense that?

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Jason Hobbs17:10:38

“The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow” …I’m pretty sure you need to expense that Wookie mask. yw.

Jason Hobbs16:10:31

What’s DOES without Star Wars? Really?

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Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service16:10:57

This underscores the criticality of support from leadership for success

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Derick Stenftenagel - Director - Cloud and Platform Svcs, Edward Jones16:10:12

@ross.clanton410 @maya.leibman Did you establish product teams for your shared IT Services?

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Ross Clanton17:10:25

Yes. I actually own many of these shared services as I have most of the infrastructure products in my org. We treat our enablement shared services (e.g. Hangars / Dojos) as products too.

Derick Stenftenagel - Director - Cloud and Platform Svcs, Edward Jones17:10:14

Would love to connect and understand the process you went through to formulate those product teams.

Ross Clanton18:10:49

Would be happy too. You can join our networking session and see if we can cover some if it there. Happy to connect further later as well

Derick Stenftenagel - Director - Cloud and Platform Svcs, Edward Jones18:10:25

Great, see you at the networking session; currently working on an effort to align our Infrastructure/Shared IT Services groups into product teams while the rest of the IT organization is under a similar transformation

Jack Vinson - flow16:10:15

"Where are my pom-poms?"


Doug Parker, CEO, American Airlines: “Transformation is everyone’s job — the champions are not IT. It’s the business leaders’ jobs!” So good, @maya.leibman @ross.clanton410!!!

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Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)16:10:54


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Adam Li - VP of Engineering, WellSky16:10:06

I really enjoy this talk from AA.

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist16:10:12

Could be worse, he could have said Jar-Jar

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:29

Awesome stuff @maya.leibman @ross.clanton410 and team! 👏

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Sara Eaton - Slalom16:10:44

great job @maya.leibman

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Derick Stenftenagel - Director - Cloud and Platform Svcs, Edward Jones16:10:44

@ross.clanton410 what was the biggest headwind you had to break through to make the shift from releases in weeks to 1 hour?

Ross Clanton17:10:36

@jason.hobbs or @steven.leist this would be a great one for you to respond to.

Jason Hobbs17:10:47

@derick.stenftenagel honestly, it’s something we’d been trying to do for some time, with relatively low success. Each time, we had big ideas and big plans, it always came from ‘top down’ and we treated it like a large effort or a project. In that mode, we always seemed to struggle to invest enough time and tools etc in moving the needle. It always involved tool purchases and big up front roadmaps, and they were mostly about trying to automate what we already did. It wasn’t until we took a more informal “run at it” last year using an Improvement Kata, NOT as a big sponsored project, but as a few hours each week that people ‘with skin in the game’ - the actual people doing the work - voluntarily participated in. At that point, we starting making strides (really small ones at first, every couple of weeks) to just improve one thing at a time. The Improvement Kata was the key. The Improvement Kata allowed us to just inspect each thing we learned every day / week, and start asking things like “what if we just stopped doing this?” or “how can we just make this one thing better?” - The people involved were the people that owned these systems and processes, and quite honestly, at first, most of the big changes just came from changing process and removing gates. No tools, No tech. Our first “next target condition” was “Release 2x per week” - when we got there, we realized it was a burden and people were maxed out. The next “next target condition” after that became “release in the middle of the day” - each time we reached a new target condition, we relieved the burden on the PEOPLE and made sure to not make work harder, but smarter and smaller. Eventually there were so many people “all in” with their newly freed up time that it just snowballed. Happy to answer more questions about this in the #bof-american-airlines channel, and happy to connect directly with anyone who wants to know more. The tech and Kubernetes aspects are super cool as well, but they were definitely means to an end, versus a planned target.

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Kudos to the amazing American Airlines IT organization! What a breathtaking journey you’ve been on!!! cc @maya.leibman @ross.clanton410

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Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines16:10:45

Thank you @maya.leibman @ross.clanton508. We have great leaders!!!

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Nick Eggleston16:10:19

Loved the presentation!

Sam Yeats - TeamForm16:10:19

What hacks/techniques do you all use to create cheerleaders at the top of your orgs <!here>? This was an amazing case study @maya.leibman

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Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting16:10:54

I hesitate to think of hacks when we're talking about people, but I think you have to start with incentives, specifically how they align (and don't) with the mission

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting16:10:21

The right way has to be the easy way, and ideally the rewarding way

Ana Torres (American Airlines)16:10:45

@sam793 We started with the willing and built successes that they could share with others - then we give them different platforms to share those stories

Sam Yeats - TeamForm16:10:57

@steveelsewhere - agree, always interesting to reflect on how these incentives and measures influence the decisions get made, when these are not transparent its incredibly difficult to drive change and collaborate

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Ana Torres (American Airlines)17:10:28

Could not agree more... 🙂

Sam Yeats - TeamForm17:10:46

@ana.torres love it, it’s so easy to try and go BIG fast especially in orgs as large as AA! But doing as you say, getting small wins, making these willing leaders heros one by one and letting that replicate is the right way to effect org wide change

Ana Torres (American Airlines)17:10:19

I was going to say exactly that - changing whole orgs isn't possible and an exercise in futility. Maya's story about the business advocates meeting was true. But we now have quite a few business leaders at the table and actually making change happen in their orgs.

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:22

Nice job @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton508!!

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THANK YOU, @maya.leibman @ross.clanton410!!! @jessicam will post details on the American Airlines AMA. Right now. 😆

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty16:10:35

@genek101 Back in 2018 when we (with @jwillis) created the DevOps 2025 Strategic plan - a key goal was getting the CEO / Board of Directors to care about DevOps. I love that @maya.leibman got our first DevOps Enterprise CEO talk! 🙌✈️

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Nick Eggleston16:10:56

Now would be a good time for a break in the session so we can finish up with the previous spearkers...

Nick Eggleston16:10:14

Yes... but... then I can't pay attention to the current talk... maybe it jsut a personal limitation.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:55

Nobody has asked a question there, so probably not just you. 🙂

Nick Eggleston23:10:50

Changing channels breaks flow... it's awesome when it all goes into one video session and chat... just need to automate separating it into different buckets after it winds down... so hopefully later-watchers can come and ask follow-ups there. Hard to implement in slack, though, I am guessing. If only there were some Dev-types around... :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:


Please welcome @scott.prugh and his boss, @ken.kennedy!!!

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Misty (American Airlines)16:10:19 Hence why I have the best seat in my house (literally) for this! :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Charlie Agarwal16:10:53

That is awesome!!

Nick Eggleston16:10:04

AA has a lot of people attending this year :)

Maya Leibman16:10:48

@misty.shafer WHERE ARE YOU?!?!?

Misty (American Airlines)16:10:20

Our Star Wars media room!

Ross Clanton17:10:04

That is so cool. I have media room envy...

Ed Marshall - Enterprise Agility - Deloitte16:10:25

Excellent!! Thank you @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton508

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Larry Abel - PnC DevOps at USAA16:10:53

Agreed! Well done. Very helpful.


And let me say, @scott.prugh was a bit uncomfortable about @ken.kennedy talking about him — but the entire programming committee asked him to “take one for the team,” so we could better understand the value that he’s created for the org. 🙂

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:00

That was great @maya.leibman @ross.clanton508

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Robyn Talbert, American Airlines16:10:16

We have an AMAZING delivery transformation journey here at American Airlines!

Ravi Upad16:10:40

Great insights @ross.clanton508 and @maya.leibman about your journey! We at Advance Auto Parts are in year 2 of similar journey. Would love to connect

Ross Clanton17:10:33

Hey Ravi, come see us at our networking session this afternoon and we can connect further.

Luke Rettig - Target16:10:54

“greatest value to our customers in the shortest sustainable lead time”

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Luke Rettig - Target16:10:27

line one in all of our job descriptions

Alicia Holmes( American Airlines)16:10:59

👏:skin-tone-3: @maya.leibman @ross.clanton410

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:15

Great job @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton410

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John Cutler16:10:39

Incredible talk. So inspiring.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)16:10:32

THIS --> "We focus is on optimizing the flow of work." @ken.kennedy @scott.prugh

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Kim Darzi - American Airlines, Infrastructure16:10:48

Way to kick it <|off> @ross.clanton410 @maya.leibman! Thanks for your leadership!

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Ross Clanton16:10:55

<!here> 👋 Let’s keep the conversation going! Maya and I will be joining the AA networking session this afternoon at 4:45 CST to have some fun and share our journey! In the meantime, join us in #bof-american-airlines and tell us what's on your mind in this 90-second survey and we’ll prepare the cabin for takeoff! ➡️ ⬅️

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I’ve watched @scott.prugh talk about CSG for seven years — and it was still super, super super interesting to me hear talk about how @ken.kennedy talks about the company, and the different lens he views the world. Thank you!!!

Jenita Johnson16:10:36

Awesome presentation on our Delivery Transformation journey at AA @maya.leibman @ross.clanton508! Proud to be a part of the team!

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Divya -American Airlines16:10:51

Great Presentation , it was a good realization of how far we have come !

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:42

@scott.prugh @ken.kennedy "Greatest Value in the shortest sustainable lead time" 💯

Shawn Hisaw16:10:51

I'm flying AA next time I fly somewhere...drooling all over keyboard...

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Srinivas Sarathy16:10:31

@ross.clanton410 @maya.leibman what was your final solution on the funding model - did you manage to get out of project based funding especially with increased contention for dollars in the current climate?

Ana Torres (American Airlines)16:10:54

@srinivas.sarathy We continue to improve our approach but yes, we still allocate funds to products and continue to work on OKRs so that they're truly outcome focused. We are continuously improving and working on leader mindsets!

Ross Clanton17:10:30

Yep, funding is all allocated to products now. We're in year one in the new funding model. Still pivoting some project behaviors, but we are getting better every day at OKRs and prioritization of funding

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)16:10:26

The length of those titles right after the American Airlines slide... being President twice... yikes.


“750 TPS to 8000 TPS” — an order of magnitude increase in transaction volume… on technology where you paid by MIPS used!!! 🤯🤯🤯

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Aras Kaleda/Change Manager16:10:27

what orchestration tools you used for releases ?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:59

We have de-centralized the majority of our releases. We have also localized change.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:17

We still track CRQs but execution is de-centralized

Aras Kaleda/Change Manager16:10:46

decentralized even for infrastructure ?

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)16:10:14

@scott.prugh what were the factors that determined “impact”? and what were the “sizes”?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:23

We measure what is called an Impact Minute = MTTR * Failure Group Size

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:53

That gives us a measure of not just how long recovery takes but how many transcations, subscribers, etc are affected.

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Adam Barrow16:10:17

How do you define change failure rate?

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host16:10:44

percentages of changes that result in degraded service, require a hot fix, or rollback

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:43

We currently measure rollback directly, since that can be instrumented. We re also tracking defect rates. I've no idea how to instrument the difference between a new change and a roll-forward hotfix on on a high performing team.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:32

Change failure rate is an interesting one. With a high cadence of changes, no such thing as one root cause (a conflux of factors coming together), it can be hard to determine causality.

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host16:10:50

no doubt, as velocity increases the fuzziness increases.

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Adam Barrow17:10:00

We seem to get stuck on if my change completes by my measure, but causes impact to your product if that should be counted on the change failure rate. I was curious what others thought, thank you for your input.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:52

If metrics are used to judge from the outside instead of helping things improve, then to goal will be lost. The goal is "how do we better serve the customer?" "I deployed and I'm fine, but it broke you. /shrug" doesn't serve the customer.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:48

If people aren't focused on actual outcomes, then they need better incentives.

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Anna Noak (she/her) - IT Revolution16:10:55

The book that was just mentioned is Accelerate:

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Brad Nelson16:10:38

Honestly one of my favorite books. I cannot recommend it enough.

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“180K call center represents. 1000 unique integrations. 2010. software releases were major events. Each release affected all customers. Often, releases required 2 weeks of triaging issues…”

Srinivas Sarathy16:10:30

Was there a message about where we can find these slides?

Srinivas Sarathy16:10:12

That was fast, does this include the slides from the keynote and this current talk?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:50

I haven’t checked. I think so. Videos of breakout sessions are available now, and the plenary sessions later: Video library:

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:41

Must be same with the slides, I don't seee the plenary slides yet

Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist17:10:21

The dropbox link is populated but the Git one appeared empty to me.

Jack Vinson - flow16:10:06

Classic big bang release example. ouch

Ken Kennedy16:10:10

@jeff.gallimore Roughly speaking, impact is determine by the % of functionality compromised times times the % of customers affected. impact minutes is derived by multiplying impact by duration.

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“in 2010, release went in on Sunday morning. Monday morning, we realized we had a major problem. Going from bad to worse. Every application affected. My phone was blowing up with calls from CIOs from every telco: Comcast, Charter, Dish, …“. — @ken.kennedy. OMG.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:44

This issue manifested itself as a DOS attack... Basically the protocol stack on AIX had differnet TCP/IP window sizes which caused packet backup and servers to tip over

Nick Eggleston16:10:09

Sounds like something that may make its way into a novel...

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)16:10:53

Cannot over-emphasize the power of this --> "Our employees are 5 times happier" @scott.prugh 👏

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Adam Bowman18:10:44

<huge smile> Totally. And of course you took note Dominica. Thank you.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:55

“the hardware change was part of the release” < ??!!!!??!!??!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

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“and the Solaris servers were already powered down.” 😂😂😂

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:55

stunning STUNNING lack of communication/coordination.

Shawn Dawson16:10:08

You are my new heroes. This is incredibly impressive work.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)16:10:01

“How could you make it worse?” :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Jack Vinson - flow16:10:05

"How could you make it worse!"

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Jack Vinson - flow16:10:20

But how many people do we run into who are convinced they WILL make it worse? (Reflecting bak to the AA discussion of preferring Action over Analysis)


“When Ken approached me, I was apprehensive. I had heard about the problems about SLBOS. The problems were legendary.” — @scott.prugh (This is so great. If I were asked to lead this, my first reaction would have been, “uh, is this a demotion?” 😂😂😂

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Adam Bowman18:10:39

And just for context, our customers' digital transformations fueled this explosive growth. Great problem to have... right?


Cost per TPS: from “$7306 -> $23.” This is so amazing. And the topic of @scott.prugh 2019 LV talk. So incredible.

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That's phenomenal .


TPS = “transactions per second.”

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:45

Way to go @steve.robert.barr!!!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:04

recent aha moment: this kind of automation is a second Taylorist revolution. We are taking complicated releases process done by experts and making them simple automated process done by computers.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:04

recent aha moment: this kind of automation is a second Taylorist revolution. We are taking complicated releases process done by experts and making them simple automated process done by computers.

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host16:10:57

Old ideas are new again. I think your analysis fits. :thumbsup::skin-tone-3:

Mathias Eifert (Excella)03:10:52

I think one could even argue that depending on how non-identical your (pre-Infrastructure as code) environments are and how heavily non-automated deployments depend on who does them, many release processes fit the (Cynefin) definition of complex - doing what you think is the same thing as last time may result in different outcomes, resulting in major unpredictability. And of course in this case, any variation is usually in the unwanted direction.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations03:10:49

I want to agree and extend @mathias.eifert. Even in the case where we’ve automated everything—or perhaps even especially in the case where we’ve automated everything—we can end up with emergent complexity. The interaction of lots of simple pieces, when there is interdependence, can yield unexpected complex responses.

Mathias Eifert (Excella)03:10:32

Good point, @jtf! That's perhaps the underlying reason why monitoring the processes that we have turned "simple" (by constraining them through automation) for brittleness is a key counterbalance in order to maintain resilience.

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Darragh O'Grady, Protiviti, Enterprise/Solution Architect16:10:15

I'm guessing it was a lot harder to measure the 'before' metrics than to measure the 'after' metrics...!

Ken Kennedy16:10:33

change request

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“One senior Ops leader: my job is to protect our customers from YOUR developers’ bad code.” — @ken.kennedy 😂😂😂😂

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Adam Furtado, Chief of Platform, Kessel Run (USAF)16:10:28

Sounds like the ops team was pretty customer-centric, though! #silverlinings

Dominic Laycock16:10:21

It is surprising how pervasive the thinking is that developers left to their own devices write terrible code. Does this happen with other job roles?

Misty (American Airlines)16:10:08

Aren't developers just optimistic? So experiencing the hostile production environment enlightens them on how to be better at their craft.

Billy Jo (he/him)16:10:38

Off-topic: That eye makeup tho! 😍

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:50

“two organizations that lack empathy, you are not going to be successful” < 💯

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Jack Vinson - flow16:10:11

Excellent description of the conflict created by different needs in the organization. There is a common objective, right? We all want the company to be successful?

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:13

"when you have two organisations with different goals then its not going to work" 💯

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]16:10:34

such a good story! this happens too often between dev teams and security too!

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Rajesh Nama16:10:40

phenomenal success stories @maya.leibman @ross.clanton410. Proud to be part of AA IT Org :)

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“I went to my boss, CEO, ’we need to change; we need one leader over dev and ops. if you make a decision, and it didn’t involve me, I’d go look for another job.” — @ken.kennedy Such a fantastic example of the leadership and courage required to crack some of these problems!!! 🙏🙏🙏

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Shawn Dawson16:10:58

Shared responsibility is critical in all these efforts.

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“…and once again, I reached out to @scott.prugh to help me solve this problem.” — @ken.kennedy 😂😂😂

Aras Kaleda/Change Manager16:10:21

Ops team did remain? or they all became devs ?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:57

Ops members are part of the same team that builds the software

Ken Kennedy16:10:15

We told them the job requirements were different. We told them we'd help them build the required skills. Some dove in. Some opted out of the company.

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines16:10:41

Need to ensure code quality from the devs? Make them carry the on call phone! Awesome! @ken.kennedy

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Adam Bowman19:10:04

Definitively drives different behavior. <smile>

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:10:41

Whoa devs on call - talk about personal responsibility - can only imagine the pushback

Ken Kennedy16:10:06

You have no idea. Question #1 was are we going to pay them more because they're going to be on call.

Luke Rettig - Target16:10:10

when i was a dev manager back in the day… i once had an ops manager tell me to “eat my own dog food” and then I was put on call. Let’s just say that i started pushing better code!

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Jennifer Velasquez16:10:02

I love it! Creating a shared view of delivering value. Set the tone for the transformation - breaking the culture of “my”.

archana kataria16:10:02

we did the same merged dev and ops however we are now struggling with developers not able to deliver with velocity and getting burn out

Adam Bowman19:10:02

How long have you been doing this?

archana kataria20:10:05

we have been on the journey for 1 year + now


What did that transition look like?


did your org provide training for folks to ramp up on tech skills?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:47

Not a lot of training outside of automation. We relied heavily on leadership and front line managers to lead the transformation

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Craig Cook - IBM16:10:12

Devs on-call is a great way to improve service quality very quickly.

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Craig Cook - IBM16:10:12

Devs on-call is a great way to improve service quality very quickly.

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Shawn Dawson16:10:39

It, literally, might be the only way to truly improve it.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)16:10:58

YES! They will script it instantly.

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Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)16:10:33

Yeah, I mean of course, it has to be done right, but too often devs are siloed away from problems the code exhibits in prod.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)16:10:53

I used to be the dev sitting next to the ops guy doing repetitions. I saved him the next day.

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines16:10:54

The teams I support have been required to carry the on call phone. It makes it much more personal for them when they deploy code. 😀

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:10:14

I wonder how that impacts on NPS, Engagement, etc. Devs are so lucky to so often be in flow/zone and that's key to why they do what they do - the clean-up or fixing part is not flowy

Craig Cook - IBM17:10:44

clean up, defects, etc is a sign of low quality. Quality needs to be built in at the start, things like pair programming, swarming, test driven development, etc. Being on-call gives you a focus on high quality before you send your work to prod.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:47

Seeing flames helps in building quality

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Nick Eggleston17:10:52

DRI - Directly Responsible Individual - if your code is what breaks things in production - your phone rings

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:55

I am starting to develop a pet peeve against "blanket blameless" 🙂

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Nick Eggleston17:10:04

DRI was explained to me by PM at Microsoft on how they drive code quailty and accountability while empowering devs to release on demand.

Nick Eggleston17:10:38

@cncook001 being on call and dealing with unintended consequences helps bring awareness to the wider effects of what one does....

Craig Cook - IBM17:10:27

Right. It leads to discussions how do I not get woken up for this code release. Things like multi region deployments, blue/green, canary's etc.

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines18:10:22

I agree with these comments. It really allows for accountability (which isn't a bad word) for their work instead of a false belief that operations is "someone else's problem". As stated above, quality needs to be in the forefront of everyone's mind from the beginning. I jokingly tell the folks I work with that it is their BBQ on Saturday that will be impacted if they don't think of quality/reliability. It usually only takes one time! 😂

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Adam Bowman19:10:45

Indeed. It definitely drives behavior in the right direction. And we know that there is no culture change by fiat, rather culture is created by daily behaviors. Therefore... change the behavior = change the culture.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:05

@me1342 Blanket blameless sounds like too much. However, the "you make it, you fix it" at extremes is "you fail to fix it completely the first 48 hour shift, you are the one to wake for the next 48 hour shift, when your loaned time expires" is a dumb way to work. So, "actively claiming team responsibility" would be a better option where finding the culprit is trumped by finding the heroes.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:22

Hmmm... maybe send an automated email to a person whose code was patched off-hours according to git blame... 😄 "Hey, did you know, someone made a change very late.. what could that have been?"

Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)19:10:13

You need enough depth in the teams to have a healthy rota, and to be able to excuse the on-call person from project work so that they can directly fix broken prod things during the day without also needing to contribute to team output.

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Nick Eggleston19:10:41

Good conversation... there is definitely tension between individual and team responsibility for issues related to code quality. Each "failure" is a learning and growth opportunity, and having a learning culture is important to the success of the business and happiness of the employees...but... if there's clear line of direct responsibility for the code and an expectation that you will be engaged if it breaks, then the risk of being called at odd hours should hopefully drive attention to both obvious and higher-order effects of a given change.

Jason Nelson - Centil - product agility coach16:10:36

"when you have 2 orgs that plan work separately, you can't be successful" @ken.kennedy was moving to product teams the critical move that made the biggest difference in your change management process? Or something else...


This part of the story where dev and ops are combined is told by @scott.prugh and @erica.morrison in 2016:

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Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:20

@ken.kennedy merging Dev & Ops teams - did you get pushback from the Risk organisation re: segregation of duties, and if so what was the agreement reached?

Ken Kennedy16:10:21

This was often justification for keeping Dev and Ops separate. We are regularly audited and you just need to show the right controls are in place. Design/Build/Run teams are key.

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Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:51

I agree - was just wondering what specific controls you arrived at. I'm collecting stories!

Erica Morrison16:10:59

This brings back memories! LOL

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:55

interesting talk on Change Management, one of the biggest pain points in our organization today. Would love to see what their Change Management process look like now, in more details

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:09

We basically decentralized our chnage processes...

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:33

awesome, thanks Scott, will definitely check it out later


in merging dev and ops , how many people are we talking about ??

Steve Jones - He/Him16:10:26

In terms of the transition for Ops -> DevOps, writing code, some people leaving, what was the timeline for Ops people to learn and change? I assume you still have people with more Ops than Dev skills, and vice versa, but what percentage of people ended up leaving?

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Ken Kennedy16:10:28

Frankly, it took 18-24 months but getting the right tools in place was more of a long pole than upskilling. attrition (planned and unplanned) was close to 20% over those two years.

Steve Jones - He/Him16:10:39

ott Prugh - SVP Software Engineering - CSG

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)16:10:31

“Evolve from a 10X developer to a 10X leader” !

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Luke Rettig - Target17:10:12

i just started making a list of the 5x and 10x developers i know… 🤯


should a technical leader still be writing code? would you be concerned if you saw your cio merging to master on a Saturday, at 3am?


slightly kidding 🙂

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Jeremy Sechler17:10:11

Seems like the 10x devs might want to stay 10x devs. And be extremely successful that way. Reward leaders and 10x devs so you can have both.

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Luke Rettig - Target17:10:26

completely agree Jeremy… these are the best people i know, so I’m going to think through who could be the 1 leader and start having the career conversations

Adam Bowman19:10:44

Our entire senior leadership team were all lead developers at one time, but we all became sold on the idea that we could have more impact by leading than coding.

Adam Bowman19:10:07

To a person, I think we all still do a little coding now and then. Love it too much to quit entirely.

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To @scott.prugh: “I need you to evolve from a 10x developer to a 10x leader, so you can make a bigger impact. I couldn’t be more proud of @scott.prugh, creating more leaders.” — @ken.kennedy

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:28

Amazing @scott.prugh!

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Nick Eggleston16:10:27

Evolve from 10x dev to 10x leader - what specific steps and challenges did you encounter in your personal journey @scott.prugh?

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Nick - developer at BNPP16:10:56

About growing “release on demand”. What metric has actually grown?

Dominic Laycock17:10:34

I think they were tracking the percentage of features that were decoupled from the deployment, I’m assuming feature flagging or some of branch by abstraction approach.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:39

We measure the % of features not batched into a release(ROD%). Basically it acts as forcing function to decouple features from a releases.

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Ken Kennedy17:10:23

we had quarterly releases and no code drops between release. now 60-70% of our features are delivered when complete (released on demand). the batch size of our quarterly releases is that much smaller.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:33

We had quarterly planning and quarterly release. We now plan quarterly and on demand and release every day.

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:22

"Technical to Strategic Excellence" ❤️

Dominic Laycock17:10:29

“Read and research voraciously” ❤️

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For the record, @scott.prugh asked me when we asked him to talk about this: “I don’t really want to talk about myself. Are you sure anyone will want to hear this?” The entire programming committee finally convinced him that this community would benefit so much, despite his modesty. 🙂 (I remember @chawklady @jason.cox @dominica @tapabrata.pal @jeff.gallimore being quite vocal about this. 🙂 THANK YOU @scott.prugh!

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Nick Eggleston17:10:30

Thanks for sharing that Gene. I wonder if imposter syndrome played a part in Scott's relictance to put the spotlight on his story.

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:07

Learn. AND share it. Figure out how to apply what you are learning and thinking. Think out loud!

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One of the amazing things I learned from @ken.kennedy — I asked him, “Why is it so important for you that @scott.prugh creates more leaders?” His response: “Well, it’s because I keep getting handed larger problems, and I need him to help me solve them. And it can’t all depend on him.” A profound lesson in there.

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Nick Eggleston17:10:57

So is this the path forward for a Brent or a Maxine? Does one cease being an IC or is that a different path?

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)17:10:18

Thank you @scott.prugh for emphasizing Psychological Safety. 🎉. Speaking of Psychological safety, @paula.thrasher is facilitating a Lean Coffee on this topic. Check out the #lean-coffee channel this afternoon to learn where and when to join Lean Coffees at 2:45 pm PT today. 🙂

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)17:10:18

Thank you @scott.prugh for emphasizing Psychological Safety. 🎉. Speaking of Psychological safety, @paula.thrasher is facilitating a Lean Coffee on this topic. Check out the #lean-coffee channel this afternoon to learn where and when to join Lean Coffees at 2:45 pm PT today. 🙂

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:28

Great that we're all speaking about it! Our session about Psychological Safety and Impression Management is on Track 3 day 2 at 2:05pm

Nick Eggleston17:10:36

Have you done any work on the interaction between psychological safety and imposter syndrome?

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:02

OMG! I love this. My nightly Slack thread to management is going to be extensive!

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant17:10:19

In absence of a culture for learning in an organization, what are some of the ways that you would recommend to inculcate that culture? Making it more specific, we communicate the importance of learning and add the personal development angle to it as well (we try to operationalize it using personal OKRs). However we still don't see enough of "Read and research voraciously". Do you have a recommendation for us to try some different strategies to create a culture of reading, learning and researching.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:09

Your leadership needs to model the behavior you want to see. Start there.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:46

Basically Change Behavior First to Change Culture. See Shooks Model of Change

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:01

Take a look at Lean Enterprise. It is referenced there

Nick Eggleston17:10:19

How does Read and Research voraciously balance against the pressure to deliver features faster?

Leah Brown - IT Revolution17:10:23

You can learn more about the book Accelerate that @scott.prugh mention here:

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@ken.kennedy: “To convince leadership of DevOps importance: 1) make the correlation for them: revenue, profitability, market share, customer satisfaction. share State of DevOps Report with execs, studying effects of specific practices with org performance;”

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:19

I like talking about the language of the executives. To an extent your executives are your customer. You learn to talk in the language of your customer rather than ask them to learn yours.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant17:10:07

from that lens, everyone is a customer. and i feel often successful leaders know when to change their language.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:46

💯 : changing language is a kind of empathy, and good communicators are great at speaking in a way that helps their listener.

Nick Eggleston17:10:20

Meet them where they are...

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@ken.kennedy “2) build trust; you must have a proven track record of success; business cases matter; budgets are finite;”


@jtf — totally agree. I love how these talks model the language/behaviors required to show that the work of this community matters, to people who matter!!!!

Demir Sejdic, IT Systems Engineer, MIC Datenverarbeitung GmbH17:10:04

"deliver on commitments" ❤️

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Luke Rettig - Target17:10:12

“nothing builds credibility like delivering on comittments”

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Dominic Laycock17:10:31

Build trust by delivering on commitments. Definitely the quickest way to give the transformation team the space to just get on with it 😁

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:31

How have others justified the value of coaching investments?

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Brad Nelson17:10:48

At the end of the day, it's a sales pitch: Have a discussion with the person, learn their challenges, explain how DevOps can help with their problems, reference someone they may know that has realized the value already.

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:48

Client challenges. Sound like similar to "leadership" challenges.


Kudos to the amazing team at CSG! It’s been amazing to see all your amazing achievements since 2013!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH, @ken.kennedy and @scott.prugh!!!!

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Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)17:10:34

@ken.kennedy @scott.prugh @maya.leibman @maya.leibman asked, "Is this bigger than DevOps" @ken.kennedy and @scott.prugh talked about Org Design, tying DevOps to Org Performance with Executives. I agree 100% And I love this stuff. But, is there a broader taxonomy to help my peer leaders and executives understand that this is DevOps? That DevOps is bigger than automation, pipelines, etc.? What do we call this bigger/broader thing? I've tried, "Hey, can we help teams have fun building cool stuff together?" Need some guidance here if anyone has thoughts or sympathy :)

Nick Eggleston17:10:29

@jonathansmart1 I remember at lean coffee you mentioned that "DevOps" in origin was left undefined so those using it would have to create and opertationalize their worn definitiions... Do I remember that right?

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Randy Shoup17:10:35

Great presentation @scott.prugh @ken.kennedy. So good!

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Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service17:10:52

I love the callout of areas where they need help. That's transparency in action.

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Please welcome @david627 and @jessica.reif!!! I’m so excited that @david627 is speaking again, with his fantastic colleague @jessica.reif!

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines17:10:36

@scott.prugh @ken.kennedy How are you measuring team member satisfaction or engagement in their work?

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Ken Kennedy17:10:28

We use Glint to conduct quarterly 5-minute surveys of our employees.

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines18:10:28

Great! I'll take a look at that. Thank you!

Manny Avila - Consulting Engineer, Cloud and Datacenter - JD Finish Line17:10:42

Fellow Navy vet.....submarine vet here!!! Thanks for you service

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:54

So excited for this: @david627 and @jessica.reif Good Luck!!

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Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:51

Thank you @scott.prugh! You are a very tough act to follow!

Ross Clanton17:10:20

Great job @scott.prugh

Leah Brown - IT Revolution17:10:56

We've listened to @genek101 interview with @david627 and @jessica.reif on The Idealcast, but we're still looking forward to more learnings from this talk!


Before I forget, you can find a link to @david627’s fantastic London-Virtual conference here: (In our amazing video library, which I LOVE using — I used it so much over last 2 weeks in prep for this conference.)

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Jason Trent17:10:03

Great job @scott.prugh and @ken.kennedy, proud to be at CSG!

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Robyn Talbert, American Airlines17:10:06

@david627 thank you for your service!

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:22

@james.simon1 is that our org chart :)

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…wait till you see their process…. 😂


cc @jessica.reif

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:37

We’ve been working closely with the DOD- some amazing progress !!

Eric Mosher, NSA17:10:25

Awesome, awesome mission! 👍

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:31

I like this failure mode being described, projecting onto the other your own assumptions.

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totally fascinating.

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:14

@jtf Yes, we all thing "they" are just like "us". (Except when we think "that would never work here"....)

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:42

describing what happens when the enemy operates on a cycle time faster than yours, a faster OODA loop in action


The structure and dynamics of the F3EA process is.. uncannily and eerily similar to something we’ve all lived with, right?!?

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Ganga Narayanan17:10:39

Or Plan - Do - Check - Attack? 🙂


…until @jessica.reif mentioned it, I never had thought about the timing of birth of Agile movement and the timeline of Team of Teams….

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:21

Queues don't learn!! @damon

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Ganga Narayanan17:10:20

Damn those queues - just one Q followed by u's and e's wasting their time!🙂


It seems, almost Kuhsian, @jtf! (Dr. Thomas Kuhn, Structure of Scientific Revolution!)

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:55

a paradigm shift / change in dominant architecture perhaps?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:04

a breakthrough in information flow --> breakthrough in effectiveness has got to be a hallmark of the information age.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:56

That QA step was way too short :)

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:17

In vehicle development QA can consume 70% of the time to market

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:26

Deserving of a spot in every presentation!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:17

Good point @jessica.reif - @genek101 can the committee make it a desiderata for the next DOES?:)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:32

Happy to keep that point going in the next presentation 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:12

If we got a million every time that gets mentioned outside these conferences, we'd have nearly a million.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:38

Hahaha not entirely the case @ferrix I annoy people every day with it

Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)17:10:19

Well, specifically when you ask people about "the best team they were ever on" they seem to spontaneously describe psychological safety pretty exactly

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:39

What were those four elements?

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:36

Trust, Common Purpose, Shared Consciousness, and Empowered Execution

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant17:10:14

"Capabilities of an agile ecosystem" - a lot like forming storming norming performing



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I love the birth of the Ops Intelligence Call — created to enable fast, dynamic and distributed at scale, spanning hundreds of thousands of people, across the globe.

Chris Movick17:10:16

Looks like a stand up right now

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:35

Makes me think of a 1-day sprint

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Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:11

Very strong parallels!


With 3000 people.

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect17:10:10

That is a lot of pizza

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Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:30

The classic, 2,000 pizza team!

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant17:10:16

This is so relatable. Experienced it more or less when COVID hit us.

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David Maillet - ATD17:10:59

@david627 How do you get 3000 people to give a quick, timely update? @jessica.reif

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:47

following, to get notified when the reply comes

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:30

The format of the meeting relied on one person giving an update to represent a larger group (one leader representing a unit, for example). A consistent update format (similar to what is used in a daily Scrum) made it easier for them to prep for the meeting and know what they were expected to provide. We have seen parallels in organizations using “Scrum of Scrums” formats to track dependencies across teams.

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Ganga Narayanan17:10:06

"Build contextual understanding to empower decentralized execution" - love it!

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:51

That 120 number looks suspiciously close to Dunbar's Number, for the CG to know the person on the other end on a personal level

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:50

That’s referenced in the book (Team of Teams)

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This liaisons is my fave part of Team of Teams book: the liaison that just took out trash and had Chick-Fil-A delivered to people.

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:34

He joined CrossLead after leaving the agency…and the sandwiches continued!

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:18

Putting on my combat shirt just for this topic.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:39

BTW. The Finnish military (a reservist-based organization) leads with Deep Leadership which has 4 cornerstones. 1. Inspirational Motivation 2. Intellectual Stimulation 3. Individualized Consideration 4. Building Trust I think the "Idealized Influence" or "charisma" is not something 1/7 of the forces can have, so that's why the 4th I is different from Transformational Leadership.


“If it hurts to give these people up, taking them off the battlefield, you know you’ve picked the right people.” — @david627

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:28

frequency and size of the meeting as a function of the rate of change in the environment makes a lot of sense.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant17:10:32

higher the frequency -> slower the rate of change?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:48

works the other way… faster rate of change needs more frequent meetings.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:19

You want to be able to digest the information being produced by the environment. If your rate of digest is slower, you fall behind.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:50

Faster rate of change = faster rate of information generation = more frequent meetings to make sense of what’s being generated

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines17:10:52

@aaron.brohimer @laura.henry Sounds like our playbacks.

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Scott Bullitt Thompson17:10:19

Transparency & Accountability - 2 big indicators of humility and self-confidence

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“keystone forum meetings can reduce the need for many point-to-point meetings.” — @jessica.reif

Luke Rettig - Target17:10:31

less meetings on the calendar is the real dream! maybe even a kpi…

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:58

Yes! If we are doing something new (like this meeting), what things can we STOP doing? Rather than piling on more and more to people.

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Bill Trautman17:10:20

free up resources for productive use rather than non-productive use

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:32

This is a great question. We often find there is an opportunity to consolidate existing meetings into a “Keystone Forum” rather than create a new meeting.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:59

Gardener model of leadership is so good, so powerful.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:28

I heard it as Gartner 😂

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:38

Gardeners don’t make the plants grow, they create the right environment, they tend & nurture. < paraphrased from Team of Teams

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Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:33

So many good gardener analogies out there. Another one we use at CrossLead is the concept of “pruning the rosebush”. Enterprises naturally produce more good ideas than they can pursue - the prioritization process should mirror pruning, wherein the gardener (1) removes dead buds, which is easy, and (2) identifies mediocre buds that are pulling resources from the most promising ones.

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)17:10:14

I love the gardener approach to leadership. It always reminds me of Oogway's peach in Kung Fu Panda about the sacred peach tree. You can nurture it, care for it. You can chose where to plant it but it will always produce peaches.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)17:10:52

There was also an old wiki pattern role called the Gardener which was a role in many teams.

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“The leader as the Chess Master: where the big challenge is putting the right pieces to create the perfect fighting pose, controlling each piece. “vs. leader as the Gardener:” (who doesn’t actually create the fruits themselves. The plants do!). — @jessica.reif

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Jason Nelson - Centil - product agility coach17:10:25

guess where the bottleneck is when your organization is is managed using a chessmaster model? lol

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Steve Spear17:10:33

@genek101 @david627 @jessica.reif @jtf David/Jess. Great contrast in traditional org chart vs. networked diagram. Gene and I have been talking about just such a migration to the right people to talking to the right other people at the right time about the right things, with a networked model as the most efficient (least friction filled, lowest energy) way to make connections. Why is top down needed? Because we need someone to do the triage to direct communication from one node to the node to which it must be appropriately connected. The image is almost like the folks through various layers acting like old school telephone operators running cables here and there “Hold for Mr Finney please. Hold for Mr. O’Callaghan please.” The network model works only if you can distribute that decision making/sense making/reconnecting. In times past, that couldn’t be done. However, now, when we can monitor traffic over the one-by-one linkages, tracking volume and content, we can organically morph the network based on highs and lows, having it reprogram itself. For a cool example of of a low energy way to get to low energy ways of staying connected see Secret Mind Slime ( starting at minute 24:00.

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Steve Spear17:10:33

@genek101 @david627 @jessica.reif @jtf David/Jess. Great contrast in traditional org chart vs. networked diagram. Gene and I have been talking about just such a migration to the right people to talking to the right other people at the right time about the right things, with a networked model as the most efficient (least friction filled, lowest energy) way to make connections. Why is top down needed? Because we need someone to do the triage to direct communication from one node to the node to which it must be appropriately connected. The image is almost like the folks through various layers acting like old school telephone operators running cables here and there “Hold for Mr Finney please. Hold for Mr. O’Callaghan please.” The network model works only if you can distribute that decision making/sense making/reconnecting. In times past, that couldn’t be done. However, now, when we can monitor traffic over the one-by-one linkages, tracking volume and content, we can organically morph the network based on highs and lows, having it reprogram itself. For a cool example of of a low energy way to get to low energy ways of staying connected see Secret Mind Slime ( starting at minute 24:00.

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cc @jeff.gallimore. This is so great!!!

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect17:10:35

It always amazes me how homogenized people are

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)17:10:47

Hardest part of this shift is getting buy in from senior leadership to empower teams to make the calls

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:41

very threatening to the leaders who see their role as being “the decider”.

Steven Bauer - Enterprise Agile Coach with Slalom Consulting17:10:25

I agree this is part of it. The next question then becomes: 'so what are we supposed to do' or 'what does that look like'

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)17:10:32

y.. concerns seem to have been focused on whether teams would do something "too risky"

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:19

Mid-managers are in a tough spot... Prove themselves to their superiors, and still be relevant to the teams.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:54

They are often the first management to move... and the last. The final ones need two-way pressure from below and above.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)17:10:59

We are seeing middle managers as being our biggest blocker for cultural change by blocking their teams from learning new skills, because they are "too busy"

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:25

We have a 70:20:10 principle (70 percent of "customer needs", 20 percent on "easier work tomorrow" and 10 percent on "learning and innovation) mandated from high-up-snow-on-top. that helps learning and improving no matter what the little boss says.

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Dominic Laycock17:10:53

+1 for public channels, so hard to move teams out of point to point communications

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:16

Up to the leaders to model, to communicate in public channels.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:31

I’ve found that I need to ask people who message me privately to repost in public channels.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:55

This is genius Speaking Up principles training @jessica.reif

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I love the advice of “favor public channels (Slack, Teams) over point-to-point communications (emails, texts): other people can learn from it.” — @jessica.reif I heard the CEO of Flowdock (remember them? competitor to Slack, bought by Rally Software) describe the value of public communications. Quote is in DevOps Handbook.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:30

Oh, missed that in Handbook. I know some of those guys. Studied together in the Uni.

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:11

Public Channels over Point-to-Point, yes! 💯 I work with so many organizations that make this mistake.

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Taylor Barnett17:10:44

Really works on reducing institutional knowledge that can burn you later!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:01

People will gravitate naturally towards P2P and 1-on-1 and exclusive groups but if we can show the value of safe common conversations they'll embrace it

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Scott Bullitt Thompson17:10:59

Why is that? What is the psych component of a person that makes us do that?

Victor Suarez17:10:14

Invisible forces cause tension....! Love the make dependencies explicit comment

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“Delegate until you’re uncomfortable. Leaders are often promoted, and then keep doing what they used to do.” — @david627 When I heard this during the recording, I stopped in my tracks. 😂😂😂 (cc @jeff.gallimore @rshoup)

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Randy Shoup17:10:40

This is wonderfully phrased. I'm still learning how to do it ! :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)17:10:01

my team tells me that i am, too… 😉

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:01

"Delegate until you are uncomfortable" - how do we help people "squirm" but make it okay for them to try?

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Neil Kalinowski17:10:23

Be OK with experimentation and failure

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:27

Our experience is that it is easiest to distribute authority a little at a time. Give up one set of decisions…than another. This helps de-risk the transition process and makes it more psychologically manageable to leaders who are glued to their decision space.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:31

One of the teams that we work with had it as a Team Action "Get uncomfortable at least once this week"

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:05

beauty of it is that courage is highly contagious - we see a huge spike in the indicators we measure once we do a Courage Hackathon that lets them model all kinds of previously Impression Managed ideas and behaviours and then celebrate them

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:03

@me1342 Do you have people talking about their discomfortable moments? Or is it more a mindset that self-replicates?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:40

That too @jackvinson - one of the interventions we suggest for teams that need it is called a Team B!tch Fest and those see a bit more of the moments if they disliked them. But in general we measure when they engage in Impression Management and how much Courage they have and whether or not they speak up and then with that info and the data in the dashboard they come up with the agenda in these Hackathons themselves

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:10:54

@me1342 A "courage hackathon"...? I'm going to need to research that more later today...

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:03

@mring We are describing it and a few other of these interventions to prevent impression management and therefore improve speaking up in our talk tomorrow at 2:05pm Track 3 but if not let me know and I'll shoot you some articles and videos

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere18:10:34

Thanks @me1342 - A quick google search led me to your Sept 1 2020 article in LinkedIn ( I will also check out your session tomorrow. Thank you!

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“…and you end up slowing other people down.” 😂😂😂 (Uh, nothing to see here. Keep watching the talk, people. 🙂

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:34

@david627 @jessica.reif Is Transformational Leadership something that you would come across in a US military career?

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:47

I am not sure if that is the language used, but definitely the concept of vision setting in mission planning is key. Dave is offline at the moment but may be able to chime in later based on his career in service!

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:49

Yeah. As I said ☝️ above, the Finnish military leadership is somewhat a carbon copy of Transformational Leadership.

Woody Evans17:10:06

The most important change in my leadership style in the last 5 years? Always explaining the Why.

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@steve773 Coming up is such an amazing example of internal marketplaces emerging to enable distributed problem solving…

thankyou 2
Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:59

And I thought that cloud computing helped maximize resource utilization, yikes. Helicopters?!?

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^^ scarcest resources were ISR (intelligence, surveillance, recon) and helicopter transport! cc @jessica.reif

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems17:10:06

When distributing decision making, I've seen times where distributing goes well 9 out of 10 times, but with a failure, decision making snaps back like a rubber band to how it used to be. Have you seen ways to prevent that in yourself or others?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:38

and yet mistakes made in traditional decision making rarely lead to trying a new model… hmm….

Eric Mosher, NSA17:10:19

@david627 @jessica.reif I'm curious how you might approach the balance "need to know" vs "expectation to share" in environments where need to know is ... shall we say, not going away. (Note who I work for.) My sense would be viewing it as a pendulum, but would love to know your thoughts.

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)17:10:26

<!here> Join @jessica.reif and @david627 for an AMA session later today!


THANK YOU @david627 and @jessica.reif!!! They’ll be hosting an AMA — @jessicam will post details shortly!!!

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Jason Nelson - Centil - product agility coach17:10:46

I miss hearing the applause for great talks!

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Up next: @jonathansmart1: who created my fave definition of DevOps: “better value, sooner, safer, happier!”

Nick Eggleston17:10:01

Jon Smart!

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Great talk…educational and entertaining!


emojis == 👏

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:06

Good morning, afternoon, evening global DevOps Enterprise Community!

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Nick Eggleston17:10:54

Good afternoon from Indy... been looking forward to your talk since London

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:13

Thank you everyone for your questions and commentary! Had so much fun with this! Please feel free to reach out to us at <|> or <|> to discuss further, or to learn more about CrossLead!

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Nick - developer at BNPP17:10:59

Great talk. Thank you!

Melissa Hoskins (Kenzan, Agile Solutions)17:10:03

@jessica.reif @david627 excellent talk; I was especially interested in the 24 hr communication cycle covering: events over the last 24 hrs, what we should be doing differently, and what we can do to unblock. It has similarities to a daily scrum, but I was interested applying these specific questions to onshore/offshore communication to keep both shores moving through external dependencies and blockers, in a scaled environment of 11 teams. Have you seen this applied in this context already?

Jessica Reif - CrossLead18:10:33

We have seen it used in similar context. Specifically, a “end-of-day” “beginning-of-day” sync between teams that are working across the ocean. Another important element here are standards for how asynchronous communication tools are used, like Slack. Ex: having a particular channel to discuss releases, etc, can be valuable for organizing asynchronous communication.

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:46

Thank you @david627 @jessica.reif that was really helpful 🙏

Scott Bullitt Thompson17:10:46

Great job Jessica. I was captivated by the presentation of you and David

Jessica Reif - CrossLead17:10:04

You are also all welcome to join our recently launched CrossLead LinkedIn community here, where we talk about these issues (and similar ones!)

Ganga Narayanan17:10:13

Fantastic presentation, thank you Jessica, David! Loved every bit of it!

Nick Eggleston17:10:13

Are those paid actors?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:14

National Commission on the Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill and Offshore Drilling

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(these were the comments from the book reviewers, @jonathansmart1? 😂😂😂 JUST KIDDING! It’s an amazing book1!!!

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host17:10:51

and on sale in #xpo-itrevolution

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Nick Eggleston17:10:11

Is anyone else seeing "live stream offline" or just me?

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines17:10:54

Yeah, just a blip for me about 10 mins ago.

Billy Jo (he/him)17:10:56

It's a little rough for me

Nick Eggleston17:10:18

It's back now... thanks!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:12

I pre-ordered. 🙂

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Jason Hobbs17:10:17

@jonathansmart1 OK He’s only on the title slide and I love this already

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host17:10:39

I just buy everything IT revolution publishes.

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host17:10:39

I just buy everything IT revolution publishes.

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Leah Brown - IT Revolution17:10:04

Ahh. You're too sweet. 😂

Luke Rettig - Target17:10:23

might as well set up a direct deposit for me

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:41

Thinking the same, and hoping my company accepts all my expense reports 😄

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host17:10:46

@leahb everything consistency delivers. Plus, there’s nothing else out there in the market similar to what ITRev does.

Andy Nelson17:10:01

yeah a SaaS like product should be in the works @genek

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)17:10:18

Wait for @genek101’s next book and maybe they'll run a "Buy x copies and we'll send you the whole IT Revolution library!" deal. Did that with Unicorn Project and stocked our IT library 🙂

Anna Noak (she/her) - IT Revolution17:10:37 give a ping when Gene’s next book comes out and remind us of the above and we’ll see what we can hook you up with 😊.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:44

We need an IT Revolution all-in-one subscription!

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Anna Noak (she/her) - IT Revolution18:10:55

Working on it, stayed tuned!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:10:43

I finally met Jon Smart in person in 2016, right after the first DevOps Enterprise Summit London!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:08

Wow, blast from the past!

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but are you CRAP certified?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:03

Lucky man @genek101 I never did meet @jonathansmart1 in person yet despite how we live down the road and say the same things in the same industry 🙂 We'll change that if 2020 ever changes though!

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:58

I remember that office!

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Nick Eggleston17:10:34

What was the source of the previous survey?

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Nick Eggleston23:10:44

Nope. lol. Another thing to bookmark and read through.

Nick Eggleston23:10:14

I am always interesting in the source of stats and how they are measured.

Luke Rettig - Target17:10:51

did Jon make himself into a bot?

Nick Eggleston17:10:12

a'la Max Headroom?

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:04

How do we think about all the production that still happens in our world? People are still buying plenty of widgets... (Still plenty of changes as a result)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:59

True dat. As I reckon you'll agree, looking at your profile, with flow and ToC mentioned, Lean for the type of work which has known unknowns, as it's been done many times before (Complicated in Cynefin) and an agile approach for work with unknown unknowns as it's not been done before (Complex in Cynefin). Both with many things in common, such as flow, flow efficiency, kaizen, ToC, respect for people and so on. Agile maximising for variance, optionality, experimentation, cheapest cost of failure (learning). Lean minimising variance with a notion of standardised work. In the context of knowledge work and software, it is both agile and lean. Agile created binary on a lean CI/CD conveyor belt path to production. Similar to cars. Agile created new models of cars (CAD/CAM, clay, prototypes), then Lean Production. Except we don't write the same software again and again, each binary on the assembly line is unique.

Jack Vinson - flow23:10:45

(still discovering Slack - only just saw this reply) The fun thing with widget production is the heavy dependence on technology - technology that keeps growing and changing. Ideally, all in service to delivering value through the system.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]00:10:49

Agile & lean, with shallow dives into Chaos (see Cynefin again)

Nick Eggleston17:10:29

Patterns and Antipatterns - opposed to "Best Practices"

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:22

Best Practices in Complexity... yeah 😄

Nick Eggleston23:10:44

But some folks love "Best Practices" and the sense of certianty they engenger.


(PS: while I’m posting pictures: here’s a picture of when I met @steve.robert.barr at CSG in 2014, in Chicago! @scott.prugh was standing right beside me.)

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:21

And that is @mark.fuller126 Fuller!!

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Geri O'Toole17:10:49

I spy @mark.fuller126!

Mark Fuller18:10:19

Nice picture!

Ganga Narayanan17:10:00

The first talk I stumbled on from Jon Smart was that Certified Really Agile Practitioner talk when I was looking for something funny. 🙂 Want more of that too! 😄

Nick Eggleston17:10:28

Lead: to guide on a journey

Nick Eggleston17:10:01

Nothing in the origin of the word lead has to do with "command"

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:07

I hate that a layer of management refers to themselves as “the leadership”

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:42

"Did you say: 'some of the people who also lead'?"

Brad Kirchman17:10:29

What is the name of the book the current speaker wrote?

Leah Brown - IT Revolution17:10:27

Sooner Safer Happier. Comes out Nov. 10 but you can get 30% off here: Or get a free ebook (while supplies last) tomorrow at his happy hour sponsored by #xpo-split-feature-flags.

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Nick Eggleston17:10:02

(while supplies last...) lol

Nick Eggleston17:10:07

Remember they used to constcript troops and the commanders would sit behind and shoot anyone who tried to leave the field of battle...

Nick Eggleston17:10:57

Agile, Lean, Devops are not the goal, they are a means to the end of Better Value Sooner, Safer, Happier!

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Dominic Laycock17:10:07

leadership behaviours: listening, inspiring and informing ❤️

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:14

More on BVSSH here: The publish date for "Sooner Safer Happier" book is Nov 10

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Nick Eggleston17:10:37

Pre-release version available to attendees?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:12

See the #xpo-itrevolution booth @nickeggleston

Leah Brown - IT Revolution17:10:21

Head over to #xpo-split-feature-flags happy hour tomorrow night to get the ebook while supplies last.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:27

Oops, I was thinking of The (Delicate) Art of Bureaucracy!

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:50

Throughput. I like the "units of value" definition here. Not just "units".

Nick Eggleston17:10:42

Value, like happiness, is ultimately subjective and related to the satisfaction of the individuals needs or wants...

Brad Kirchman17:10:05

Is there a way to get a list of all the books mentioned during the conference?

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Leah Brown - IT Revolution17:10:30

For IT Revolution books, head over to #xpo-itrevolution.

Brad Kirchman18:10:35

This is fantastic!

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:32

"Transform! I dare you" ❤️

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Nick Eggleston17:10:38

"Transform! I dare you!"


Pro Tip: Check your video player window, and select Quality > 720p to max out video quality setting. Just noticed that I couldn’t read some text b/c mine was set to Auto!


Pro Tip: Check your video player window, and select Quality > 720p to max out video quality setting. Just noticed that I couldn’t read some text b/c mine was set to Auto!

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:27

BTW, where's the full-screen button? 😄

Rasika V17:10:04

i was wondering the same thing !!

Jason Hobbs17:10:10

@ferrix bottom right of player bar. took me a while to find it too

Rasika V17:10:25

me neither :thinking_face:

Rasika V17:10:51

wow !! got it

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Nick Eggleston17:10:18

Wow thanks for posting the link... it's like you've given the talk already are are just waiting to deliver these

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Space Shuttle accidents were 17 years apart. Huh.

Ganga Narayanan18:10:17

We had pandemics 100 years apart - 1918 and now. 🙂 I hope we don't get another one for a very long time, or we're better prepared for something like this next time!

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Jack Vinson - flow17:10:07

Psychological unsafety. More subtle version is heavy emphasis on "meeting commitments" (where everything becomes a commitment)

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Jack Vinson - flow17:10:14

Yes.... But the element I see more often is people downplaying possibiliites. Over building. Over analyzing.

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:40

Similar effect, though. Stuff takes for ever. Or doesn't happen at all.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:11

Deterministic mindset. A thinking error.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:34

Approaching the unknowable as if it's knowable. At the point of knowing the least.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:40

And the analogy of death with 'deadline' and 'drop dead date' often used. How motivating.

Jack Vinson - flow18:10:42

"But what if it breaks?" (And I am held to account for the "break")

Nick Eggleston17:10:14

The same culture produced disasters...


“The space shuttle program was retired in July 2011 after 135 missions, including the catastrophic failures of Challenger in 1986 and Columbia in 2003 that killed a total of 14 astronauts.Feb 1, 2019” I had forgotten how distant those two events were!

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant17:10:31

the documentary on netflix is a good watch if someone is interested in learning more about what happened there

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:16

Information flows have a huge impact on outcomes, and fear dramatically impacts information flow.


Structure and dynamics!! cc @steve773

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:37

indeed! and the link to the Westrum Three Cultures.

Nick Eggleston17:10:38

How important was it to have an outsider like Feynman on the investigation of the Challenger disaster? And did it ultimately matter, if the org didn't change?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:03

Oh. Yeah. A Thinking Error!! Deterministic Mindset.... @ken.kennedy

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Geri O'Toole17:10:19

I spy @mark.fuller126

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:23

No one expects the Agile Inquisition

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect17:10:33

@chris.gallivan we just saw deterministic mindset as a motto

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect17:10:07

Build it Right the First Time

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:09

BSSVH might be a good name 😄. But a bit wordy

Nick Eggleston18:10:40

Build the Right Thing Build the Thing Right (from a previous talk by Jon)

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:55

Much better than Build it Right the First Time, world of difference

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:30

Build it in super thin slices, quickly and repeatedly.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:48

With an eye on Better (Quality), Value, Flow (Lead Time), Safety and Happiness (BVSSH), so that it's not at the expense of one of them

Nick Eggleston23:10:42

Yes! and putting it that way makes it (hopefully) easier to communicate with stakeholders, as they don't speak the jargon of lean, devops, agile...

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Nick Eggleston17:10:49

"The Agile Imposition" I really like how you changed the name of the org at your previous org away from the technical terms like Agile and DevOps toward BVSSH...

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@michael_winslow makes an appearance! cc @jonathansmart1

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Congrats on your recent promotion to Sr. Director, buddy!!!

Nick Eggleston18:10:33

Who was the new leader and what role did he create for you @michael_winslow?

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host17:10:32

BVSSH = Better Value: Sooner, Safer, Happier

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host17:10:32

BVSSH = Better Value: Sooner, Safer, Happier

Paul Pennel - he/him - Edward Jones17:10:47

Dragons in the shelf!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:06

These examples of good leadership sound more “green” than “teal”. Do you think I’m wrong on that @jonathansmart1? (I’m happy to be wrong)

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:34

That’s not a criticism! Just testing my understanding.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:07

Likely. One step at a time from Red or Orange...

Nick Eggleston18:10:36

bookmarked to read...

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:08

"How can I help you". 5 short words

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Alyssa Lundgren - Centil - Product Owner18:10:11

‘How can I help you.’ 💛

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Jack Vinson - flow18:10:25

Leaders in service to - servant leadership

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:10:43

Pro-tip: If the full-screen button is missing from the video controls (supposed to be right end of the bar), F5 may help.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant18:10:56

more information on that subject in "Work Rules"

Ganga Narayanan18:10:46

True: "How can I help you." Should be authentic. Mean it.

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist18:10:49

Want to lead well -- realize that asking "How Can I Help You" >>>>> "Heres How You Help Me"

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That’s “Dr. Amy Edmundson” to you, @jonathansmart1!! 😂 cc @me1342

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist18:10:26

Psychological safety also includes being able to say "I was wrong"

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)18:10:20

This is always why "I reserve the right to be wrong!!"

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)18:10:27

Yes!! More Psychological Safety!!

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:10:23

Intelligent failure? Want to get certified... I could sell that 😉

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant18:10:28

We have an extension of "How can I help you" at our org - leaders are expected to offer help by asking directed questions like "are you blocked somewhere?", "are you happy?", "what do you think we are not doing right as a team", etc. etc

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@jtf has such an interesting view on “are you happy?” being such a great indicator of so many things…

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:37

Theory Y says that people want their work to matter, they want their projects to succeed. If they feel their projects are likely to fail, they are unhappy. Thus unhappiness is a leading indicator of project failure.


Had a manager, ask here and there how can I help you, but their better approach was to provide a suggestion to the me on how they thought could help and ask for feedback. Shows they actually put some thought into the situation vs. making me doing all the work and putting me in sometimes awkward position and pressure

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:16

(him responding to me using that question)

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:38

Anyone playing the psychological safety drinking game is in real trouble…

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Sam Larson - Engineering Director at OneNeck18:10:44

"You don't fail an experiment, you learn from it."

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Ross Clanton18:10:54

@jonathansmart1 love the talk. Can't wait to see the Andy Patton interviews 😉

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:22

Videos are in the breakout library 🙂

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Chris Vogel - Edward Jones18:10:06

FAIL - first attempt in learning

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Ganga Narayanan18:10:50

As long as the teams don't fear that it's their "Final Attempt in Learning"! 🙂

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)18:10:15

Given that Psychological Safety is a common topic in all plenary talks so far, we've created a new slack channel #psychological-safety

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Akis Sklavounakis18:10:29

FAIL - Free Attempt In Learning

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:10:08

Or in other places: Fired At Insufficient Luck

Akis Sklavounakis18:10:38

First implies just one

Jack Vinson - flow18:10:40

Celebrate failure. Searle (drug company) gave awards for running the killer experiment that stopped projects early.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:10:42

@dominica do you take a drink when it is mentioned? 😄


i'm amazed by your RAM like ability to reference just about any quote 🙂

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]20:10:43

RAM brought to you via notepad.exe 🙂

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY18:10:34

We have an ops group focused on deterministic solutions for our dev teams

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Nick Eggleston18:10:08

Supporting Lines vs Reporting Lines... These are the people I support (no who "report" to me)

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)18:10:13

Woah! "Replace reporting lines with supporting lines" @jonathansmart1

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Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host18:10:44

Who are the best people to discuss the improvement and coaching kata with?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:19

I’d love to be part of that conversation when it happens.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:32

Maybe come to my Lean Coffee track tomorrow and propose it as a topic?

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Jason Hobbs18:10:07


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Ganga Narayanan18:10:45

So true re: supporting lines. Another pet peeve of mine: leaders saying "the people who work for me". They work for the company, and as a leader, you support them.

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Dominic Laycock18:10:28

“Maintain optionality for as long as you can” 🙇

Dana Finster - Walmart InfoSec (Speaker)18:10:37

Great talk as always @jonathansmart1 - courage & psychological safety is something I'm working on now. I really like the idea of leadership thinking more in terms of supporting lines over reporting lines!

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Jack Vinson - flow18:10:38

Leadership is how you leave people feeling

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Heather Martin18:10:47

@Jessica@jessica.reif requested !

Jason Hobbs18:10:58

@jonathansmart1 great presentation! Love it.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:13

Bonus material:

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Nick Eggleston18:10:33

Need some CRAP stickers hehe

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THANK YOU @jonathansmart1!!!

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Nick Eggleston18:10:26

Jon wants to hear stories, case studies of where leaders have adopted better behaviors leading to better outcomes

Ganga Narayanan18:10:31

Loved it Jon! Thank you!

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Michal Jackowski Procter and Gamble18:10:33

great session!!!

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Steven Bauer - Enterprise Agile Coach with Slalom Consulting18:10:49

Great content as always @jonathansmart1!!

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Darragh O'Grady, Protiviti, Enterprise/Solution Architect18:10:16

Good stuff, @jonathansmart1 👏

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Sam Yeats - TeamForm18:10:40

Awesome presentation @jonathansmart1 !

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Billy Jo (he/him)18:10:53

Sooo many links to sort through. Guess what I'm doing on the break. 😂

Nick Eggleston18:10:55

Always get inspired listening to @jonathansmart1 speak. So much to learn!

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Jason Hobbs18:10:56

@jonathansmart1 from “Neils Pflaeging”’s “Organize for Complexity”. His concepts really align with what you’re saying, although I don’t think he writes enough about safety, which is critically important to be mindful of.

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OMG. The Sticker Off entrants are all so clever and amazing!!!! 😂😂😂

Nick Eggleston18:10:55

Breaks are so helpful in giving a little time to try and catch up with all the slack threads I am now waaaaaay behind on ....

Shawn Dawson18:10:41

It's an ocean, you may not ever drink it all.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)18:10:00

if you’re logged in to the conference, you can find @jonathansmart1 Andy Patton vids in the library: Here's one with me taking about saying No (for comic relief):

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Aras Kaleda/Change Manager20:10:16

don't know if this is a question in this topic but let's try. CMDB - is it a key point for DEVOPS, VSM ?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:57

Oh. Geesh. Kicking the beehive.

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:33

CMDB is useful, but it won't save you regardless of what ITSM vendors tell you.

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)20:10:00

@bmmc talked a bit on how they use a CMDB with the whole DevOps landscape to manage their controls and Application TCO

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:30

It is nearly impossible to keep up to date and it drives large batch and coordination overhead that misrepresents what central groups understand about the system.

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:56

Use it is a guide. But push real risk analysis to the edges. Basically the people closest to the work understand the most about the real risks and what the real landscpae looks like.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:52

Don't use CBDB as a false belief that a centralized group understands what the landscpae really lloks like. This was always very hard and became nearly impossible with dynamic infrastructure

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional20:10:12

Oh man, I've had a blog post kicking around my head for months called "The only thing that knows the state of a thing is itself". @scott.prugh is spot on.

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:06

Oh. And get rid of centralized approvals, They don't work and drive long lead times and low performance. See @nicolefv work on this in Accelerate and SODR

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional20:10:19

Also, if you're in the cloud, the CMDB is called "tagging". Try to implement it any other way, and you will lose.

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems20:10:09

How do you incentize stakeholders to not want centralized approvals?

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional20:10:35

Check out @nicolefv’s work, they add no value.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:53

Start small... Trial a few team localizing CAB approvals(self approvals for lower risk changes)

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting21:10:26

The strongest force driving the death of approval processes is that nobody actually wants them - they just want the results, so that gives you an opening. If you can get the same or superior results, you win.

Nick - developer at BNPP22:10:15

Configuration management database? I wouldn't call it a "key point". But it definitely helps to have one

Nick - developer at BNPP22:10:30

@steveelsewhere this is brilliantly said. Accurate to the point.

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional22:10:42

I think the point people were making earlier is the a CMDB is desired state, not actual state. When you confuse those two things, you get burned.

Nick - developer at BNPP22:10:02

@dave could you please share the link for the "CABs are useless" talk you have mentioned?


Quick comment per ☝️… ‘yes’ we did use CMDB to drive satisfying some compliance requirements and to assist with calculating the TCO of an application because we focused CMDB to solve those challenges (along with some change management and other things), but it’s not what drives the pipelines…we just used the ITSM vendor capabilities to tap into the deployment results such that we could pull out the data we needed for those requirements. Doing a real Configuration Management System (CMS) is hard and requires ironclad discipline ( I applaud anyone that has been able to achieve that! (however) I don’t want to give the impression from my talk that we are doing so. Hopefully if you saw the ‘Method’ part of my talk that was illustrative.

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional22:10:11

@nick.kritsky so, this is from #DOES18, but I think @nicolefv is around and I've seen her give a number of versions of this talk (when Nicole talks, I always listen) so maybe she has one she likes better.


Oh that’s good I had not actually seen it before…thanks for sharing.

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Nick - developer at BNPP23:10:05

@dave thanks for sharing! This one sparks joy. After having seen the CAB bit in the end I am watching the video from the very beginning.

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)22:10:36

<!here> Join @jessica.reif and @david627 for AMA happening now!

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Peter Moore22:10:34

Looking forward to sharing the podium wit John Cutler for our talk later today and to have real time Q&A on Slack during our talks.

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)23:10:10

At 415 PST, welcome speakers @tim333 and @christopher_d_porter, members of the speaking team for Fannie Mae!


Yes, please welcome @tim333 and @christopher_d_porter from Fannie Mae, who are co-presenting with Kimberly Johnson and Ramon Richards!!!

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Quoting @maya.leibman: “This year is a LOAD of 2020…” 😂.

Demir Sejdic, IT Systems Engineer, MIC Datenverarbeitung GmbH23:10:10

"this year has been a whole load of 2020" :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Pete Nuwayser - IBM23:10:47

It could be worse... it could be a whole year of eisenbahnscheinbewegung.

Jack Vinson - flow23:10:34

New one for me.. “Eisenbahnscheinbewegung” is “the false sensation of movement when, looking out from a stationary train, you see another train depart.” - In our usage I assume this implies "movement" that looks like progress?

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM23:10:08

Fake Railway Movement!


I think I’ve known @christopher_d_porter for 15+ years… I knew of his amazing work with the famous Verizon Data Breach Investigations Report (DBIR) — is my memory correct, Chris?


“Housing sales are 15% of US GDP” 🤯🤯🤯

upvotepartyparrot 1
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Christopher Porter23:10:43

@genek101 , yup, i worked on that report for several years. One of the best teams I’ve ever been a part of.

Christopher Porter23:10:16

@genek101 I think the first time we met was at the RSA Conference at the Irish Bank.


(or was it at the Thirsty Bear?). Did I get that name right? Hahaha

Christopher Porter23:10:24

Could have been both!


Well, what I actually asked Kimberly Johnson, “What did you do incredibly amazing or incredibly horrible that landed you the responsibility of owning the technology organization?” 😂😂😂. (@jeff.gallimore was with me that amazing evening, along with @christopher_d_porter !)

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…this part blows me away… Kimberly Johnson brought her entire management team with her to tech org, and brought the weight of expertise and evidence to their board of directors, ensuring they were fully onboard.

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Christopher Porter23:10:54

KJ has been one of the best leaders I’ve ever worked for. Prior to her move into COO, she was our CRO (Chief Risk Officer) and I had a dotted line into her role here. So in effect, I’ve worked for her for the last 5 years in one way or another.

Christopher Porter23:10:11

KJ has been one of the best leaders I’ve ever worked for. Prior to her move into COO, she was our CRO (Chief Risk Officer) and I had a dotted line into her role here. So in effect, I’ve worked for her for the last 5 years in one way or another.


Kimberly Johnson has an internal reputation for “running to the fire” — she had a very special role for helping rewrite millions of mortgages in the aftermath of the Great Recession.


@christopher_d_porter How does it feel to have her supporting your efforts? As CISO, I’m sure you’ve had experiences where you didn’t have the full support of leadership?

Christopher Porter23:10:49

It’s great. A lot of the CISOs I speak with don’t have the level of support that we have. I think it’s because there’s a shared understanding of the risk that we have as an organization, the data we have and how important we are to the housing economy.


“Are we there yet now?” 😂

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans23:10:54

❤️ Fannie Mae - without them my company couldn't do what it does.

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“Fastest way to save money? Turning things off.” “Fastest way to waste money? Doing things twice.”

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Michael Winslow23:10:22

Brilliant! Unfortunately I had to watch the presentation on my phone so I couldn't be on slack! So here I am scrolling up knowing that Gene wouldn't miss a great quote! :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:49

That was a great point on the various types of metrics…


@jtf I think Kimberly Johnson models splendidly we’d want business leaders to talk about technology. cc @mik

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations23:10:30

Absolutely! She’s clearly talking their language, and at the same time being an adult in the conversation in taking responsibility when appropriate, and setting a boundary when appropriate.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional23:10:39

She scared me when she said they got all their DevOps house in order in 1 year. That was just the kernel. Phew!

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Rich B - DevOps is my career change23:10:36

I been working on it for 2 years and we have so much to do

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:06

Yes, and she painted a good picture of leading v lagging metrics, and time it takes to get to business outcomes

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Kimberly Johnson on the house purchase process: “Over 40 percent of people surveyed put buying a house as the most stressful event in their life. By doing so, these people are saying buying a house is more stressful than applying to college, interviewing for a job, or going through a divorce, which I found remarkable. If what we do is help people get into houses, and that is such a stressful life event, there is a great deal of opportunity for us to make a better experience for our borrowers. ”

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“or going through a divorce” Amazing.

Tim Judge23:10:38

@mik - that is a theme with Kimberly across all her roles, get the right metrics in place and drive to them.

Lucas Melo (American Airlines Architect)23:10:45

COO Kimberly Johnson speaking like a Technology Leader, showing she gets it! We all need to focus on outcomes.

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Tim Judge23:10:48

It takes strong leadership and consensus building to get through the J curve

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations23:10:48

Great point! So may people abort the journey during the dip.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)23:10:12

I remember a book by this Kim dude about magical horses that suggested that COOs and CEOs should be tech savvy and potentially from an IT background. I am hearing some of that now.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)23:10:07

Mea culpa. It was the magical bird prequel to the horse book.

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having assets that are 30 year loans means Fannie Mae needs to care about risks that span a 30 year horizon. 🤯

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BTW: this is so clever: two stories: one hyper-urgent short-term (COVID-19) and one long-term (30 year climar risk).

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…it does raise the question to @tim333: “what did you do really amazing or really awful to earn this role?” (hahaha)

Tim Judge23:10:51

@genek101 - I am on the Kimberly Johnson track! We love the big problems.

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Martin (TeamForm)23:10:46

@tim333 do you look to cooperate with regulators to help reduce the risks? eg influencing the adoption of firesafe building codes to reduce risks to existing mortgages. ... and is it interesting getting stuff done in an environment where not all participants believe in a climate risk?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:42

Great points @tim333 re needing to pivot fast and have transparency and metrics in the current (climate) climate

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I didn’t mishear Kimberly Johnson: Fannie Mae has a $3.5 TRILLION balance sheet.

Tim Judge23:10:01

@martin391 We look to work with all types of stakeholders. Fannie Mae is big but we can't move the needle alone. There is an asymmetry in conviction on the topic but US regulators are starting to come around and push for more work on climate

upvotepartyparrot 1

one out of four homes in America. “Can lead to a low risk tolerance.” Hello, @christopher_d_porter!

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Last time I saw Chris, he looked like:

Pete Nuwayser - IBM23:10:26

Gene's next Zoom background?

Christopher Porter23:10:21

That was just the skin I put on at work.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)23:10:56

Okay. So they are recapping Phoenix Project, only from real life.

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Christopher Porter23:10:59

I took a lot of lessons from the Phoenix Project and put it in place within InfoSec. We have a release train and have near full visibility into all the work (capacity and demand) that we have on our plate. It’s taken a while, but we’re better than we’ve ever been.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)23:10:47

The first time I read the Phoenix Project, I cried a little because I knew and hated those problems. It is a long road especially in big companies.


Hahaha. When we had beers at RSA in 2008, you looked like that! ^^^ 😂

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional23:10:25

The old way of security was BOFH h/t @jtf

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations23:10:15

People might get the wrong idea with you tagging me on that @dave!

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional23:10:25

I've got a talk called There's No Such Thing as DevSecOps that dives deep on that idea. You were just the 1st to bring up BOFH today.

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)23:10:13

“Stop calling security findings vulnerabilities; start calling them defects” <= Great idea…

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“if you follow the paved road, the CI/CD pipeline, it’s easy to deploy.” “if you don’t, it’s a rocky road, lots of potholes, you get pulled over by the local cops, etc..” 😂😂😂😂😂

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Michael Winslow23:10:42

This was the best line! And he said it so fast. I was like "Did he just say 'get pulled over by the locals?'" Lol!

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:02

@christopher_d_porter Love the point about treating vulnerabilities as what they are: defects.

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Christopher Porter23:10:42

Language is an amazing thing. If you start using the right language, you can change the culture.

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines23:10:43

@christopher_d_porter Was there any push back from the developers around having to focus on security as well as development? If so, how did you change the culture to overcome (aside from making tools available)?

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Can’t wait to hear your response, @christopher_d_porter.. 🙂

Jack Vinson - flow23:10:11

Love the statement that "security" is just part of the stack... It's not a separate thing.

Christopher Porter23:10:39

To some extent. I think part of the problem was that Dev teams were focused way more on feature work rather than on fixing “security” defects. It took a while to make them realize that they also needed to fix these too. Once we shifted left, sorted the high risk defects into their Jira work, it made it much simpler.

Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines23:10:21

So in part changing the culture by aligning the work with something the devs were familiar with (i.e. defects vs vulnerabilities)?

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Christopher Porter23:10:51

We have some incredible data that shows how older portfolios of apps, that hadn’t shifted left, when we did “to the right” assessments, or pen tests, the newer portfolios had orders of magnitude less security defects. Like around 70-75% less.

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Michael Baca, Development Manager, American Airlines23:10:00

The data was originally within the security area and then made available to the rest of the org? I'm asking a lot of questions because I personally want to understand how to better integrate security into our development teams. I'm personally on my own learning journey in Cyber Operations so this subject is super interesting to me. Any suggested reading material or other growth material in this space you would recommend? Thanks in advance.


“there’s a mindset change by devs and security; devsecops is an observation, not a title; we don’t care who does the work; it’s just how work is done.” Mentality of “we protect devs from themselves” no longer appropriate.

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)23:10:45

“tool sharing” from InfoSec is critical to success.


That was awesome, @christopher_d_porter — it’s amazing how much the world has changed since those days at RSA!!! Breathtaking, really…

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:24

Yes that was awesome @christopher_d_porter

Scott Bullitt Thompson23:10:27

@christopher_d_porter I'd really love to hear what training you found necessary for your developers. We're finishing up our CICD pipeline integrating into our security scanning api's with pass or fail thresholds, but want to make sure I'm looking at pushing quality and knowledge upstream to developers' thinking too.

Chris Vogel - Edward Jones23:10:28

“Security needs to deputize developers”. I really like that idea.

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It just hit me: @jeff.gallimore just confirmed: @christopher_d_porter is the first CISO to present here at DevOps Enterprise Summit! Thank you, Chris!

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Christopher Porter23:10:18

Now that is an honor.

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Thank you so much, @christopher_d_porter and @tim333!!! Was so great!!!

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Please welcome @john.cutler and @pdmoore!!!!

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These two sessions are interesting, because they both show how far we still need to go…

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Luke Rettig - Target23:10:27

been looking forward to this one all day!

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty14:10:12

Is Kimberly the first COO?


Sort of. Jenny Wood presented in London, who is COO of Services for RBS

John Cutler23:10:20

Hello Everyone!

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Luke Rettig - Target23:10:02

John is a must follow on Twitter for all Product peeps

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)23:10:02

Welcome @john.cutler and @pdmoore!

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:12

For anyone who doesn’t follow him, I think that @john.cutler’s tweets are 50% of the information density that I get out of my Twitter feed. Per @genek101’s point

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Peter Maddison23:10:50

Ha. Same here. Love those tweets

Courtney Kissler23:10:04

I’ve shared at least 2 in the last 24 hours with my leadership team. 🙂

John Cutler23:10:20

Oh no. What have I done.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)23:10:41

You are a highlight in my twitter feed, pushing out 2020 doom & gloom

Courtney Kissler23:10:54

well, not sure if you want to take credit for this, but you help me not feel like i’m completely crazy 😂

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems23:10:07

There's times I've found myself scrolling past other tweets in my list to see if John tweeted.

Adam Furtado, Chief of Platform, Kessel Run (USAF)23:10:27

Yep- I think most of my presentations include a @john.cutler tweet

John Cutler00:10:08

@chawklady.... whatever I can do! Putting it out there makes me feel less crazy as well. Virtuous cycle of crazy acknowledgement

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)23:10:45

@christopher_d_porter - We're trying to get a similar "DevSecOps" programme off the ground where we enable teams with skills, tooling and recognition for security. The biggest problem we are facing is Security teams who are "too busy" or don't trust dev teams to do it "properly"

Christopher Porter23:10:38

This is a tough thing to be honest. From a security perspective, it’s not in our blood to “trust”. We are figuratively “paid paranoids”.

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)23:10:16

I agree - we're doing an inversion of control on them as an experiment. Run the programme from Engineering but have Security drive the Board level decisions.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)23:10:51

So they still tell us what to do, just at arms length. Not ideal but a first step to prove ourselves to them

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations23:10:42

When you download the slides from GitHub you just get John. It’s great!


PS: This is my original script that I didn’t fully read, but I believe it wholeheartedly: > John Cutler is, in my opinion, one of the people who is doing the most innovative work in advancing the field of product and design, picking up where Alan Cooper, Marty Cagan, Jared Spool and Heidi Helfand left off.  It’s been my personal observation that his tweets are among the most charred within the DevOps Enterprise community, and I’ve personally benefited from his amazing advice and observations.

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“everything is a product” (because it’s the only way to get funding!!!) 😂😂😂😂

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:12

“Want a budget, call it a product”!!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations23:10:15

I think there’s a Zoom virtual background inspired by John’s room

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive23:10:39

I'm addicted @john.cutler’s Twitter feed. Lots of great insight and threads of conversation!

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)23:10:44

So… product management is really just a big game of Tetris?


…there’s an absurdity to all this, when @john.cutler describes it like this, yes?

Andy Nelson23:10:18

"tetris to the third power" - Name of my new product led band

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)23:10:22

Not only three dimensional Tetris, Tetris^3

Sara Gramling23:10:41


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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]23:10:41

🚂 Finely tuned Feature Factories

Joe Moretti23:10:43

It sure does feel like Tetris!

Paul Pennel - he/him - Edward Jones23:10:45

I love the “slides”

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Victor Suarez23:10:16

Quantum Tetris

Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service23:10:01

Pretty sure that got played on the Enterprise (pun intended)

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)23:10:37

The fourth line would be Lean UX with DevOps 😄 They have "real" names 😄

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)23:10:59

A simple and profound question: what is a product?


Didn’t quite get that point, @john.cutler — “they leave out the _ formal authority.” Could you explain that a little more?

Nick Eggleston23:10:31

"product led" does not mean "product-manager led"

John Cutler23:10:45

I need to rewind @genek101, sorry, will report


“using design and technology to create sustainable sources of differentiation and growth”

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Nick Eggleston23:10:12

pull andon cord... discuss and clarify... continue.... it would be very interesting to experiment with this...

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)23:10:35

“Design + technology can be responsible for the step-changes in outcomes.”

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]23:10:40

Yes. Not 'the business'. Everyone is 'our business'.


@john.cutler “They copy frameworks, rename everything, projects to products, restructure everything, new titles, new rituals, leaving out the convenient threats to formal authority, of course, but the outcomes are only marginally improved.” Can you say just a little more about what is being missed around authority?

Nick Eggleston23:10:00

Sounds like @jonathansmart1 talking about superficial org restructuring, parodied in the CRAP talk...

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John Cutler00:10:31

Yes. @nickeggleston!

John Cutler23:10:09

oh. oh ... people copy and paste frameworks, but when it comes to challenging their own power dynamics they ignore that part

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]00:10:20

$ install -f spotify_model

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John Cutler23:10:22

classic example SAFe is explicitly designed not to challenge formal authority

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Nick Eggleston23:10:46

If it's not uncomfortable is it simply superficial?

Luke Rettig - Target23:10:44

creating a whole new table is a powerful idea, not just getting a seat at the table

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Any areas and roles of maximum tension / mismatch between desire vs. actual?

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)23:10:20

@john.cutler the only functional implementations (2/50) that I have heard of were SAFe with challenge to formal authority.

Jack Vinson - flow23:10:33

The real differentiator is how we deliver? Not what we deliver? The team/company is the product.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY23:10:39

The team is the product

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John Cutler23:10:41

yes ... classic one is the PO vs. Product Manager differentiation

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations23:10:51

things aren’t shipped, they are offered