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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:33

Love the Senius idea. And also how the Slack channel interactivity allows for more rapid interaction.

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James Simon09:05:12

Agree, I have told several teachers and professors I know about this model

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:21

I miss seeing people in person, but I do love the ability to interact during the talk

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:05:40

It IS interesting how the chat is in General, right? Hello gents 🙂

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)09:05:00

Hello all! I hadn’t stopped to think about where to chat so just continued in General.

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:02

@jtf Indeed. Using Slack so much during the conference was one of those happy surprises with going virtual.

Senthil Nathan (HCL Launch - PM)09:05:32

yes. Slack is the best thing in a virtual conference...

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:07

I've actually found, while the engagement is really nice, paying attention to both throughout the entire day is pretty exhausting 😄

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:05:11

There is a lot more valuable interaction in the DOES Slack channels than the corridors of most in person events

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:20

I love being able to interact and participate virtually, since I would not be able to join our “scene” (scenius?) if it were in-person only.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:01

@genek , which conference did u meet each of the committee members at?

David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group09:05:05

I go to a lot of meetups and the chat is as interesting as the speaker or video interactions.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:42

I love getting chat transcripts when I run an event. I learn a lot in the process.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:05:13

Transcripts?!? That puts it in a whole different permanent light.....

David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group09:05:13

To quote a UK rugby tour rule - what goes on tour stays on tour! I hope this is a safe space for us all.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:01

@davidorsi72: the Slack messages are archived and available after the event. @genek101 mentioned that during his "non-plenary".

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Stijn Claes - Nike09:05:00

The gather setup looks cool!

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:46

Gather is pretty cool. Used it with another conference, but it loses chat context and doesn’t persist contacts, so drive that back to slack IMHO

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:02

I still feel FOMO 😂

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:39

Yes it’s a persistent existential problem

Stijn Claes - Nike09:05:17

Would love to apply that for our next big room planning

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:28

Gathertown is fun. Looking forward to seeing how it works for these networking events!

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:57

Yes! We’ve been running around in that space and it’s… fun.

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:36

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Could you post the link to the slides here?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:05:18

Kicking us off today is @pieter.jordaan, Group CTO of TUI Group, the world’s largest integrated travel company. Welcome, Pieter!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:34

Please welcome @pieter.jordaan, Group CTO of TUI, the world’s largest integrated travel company!!!

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:47

Welcome everybody. Looking forward to the session. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try my best to answer as many as possible.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:02

Funny how often crisis really is what makes the difference.

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:19

Crisis is a huge enabler we've found 🙂

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:24

From my introduction of @pieter.jordaan, which I found so moving: “When the pandemic hit, they simultaneously needed to figure out how to bring nearly 2 million passengers safely back home, as well as figure out how to survive a period no one wanted to travel, and still leave the pandemic stronger than when it entered it.”

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Luke Rettig - Target09:05:45

awesome balance of business operations and implementing strategy

Dubro - Conti Tires09:05:34

So Hanover seems to be well-represent here.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:58

Travel... can someone remind me what that means?

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:51

Crampt airline seats and possible deep vein thrombosis 😂

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:22

Working hard to bring travel back the world.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)19:05:12

I ❤️ travel in the sense of visiting new places and people, but the long plane rides are expensive agony, personally. But the end makes it tolerable.

Tim B09:05:18

Usually taking the dog for a walk at the moment.

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Senthil Nathan (HCL Launch - PM)09:05:38

or watching videos of people from other continents.. new travel is no travel. 🙂

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Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit09:05:07

We tried to renew our passports recently and there are no slots available.. I assume travel will rebounce massively

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:42

We discovered that our daughters passport expired a couple of months ago, and found the same thing, no slots for normal renewal.

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit09:05:05

people checking passport expiration dates now 😄

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Ewen Clark09:05:20

I used to work for TUI- awesome company to work for.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:36

I am constantly amazed at the complexity of pricing, booking, etc. @pieter.jordaan comparing it to his experiences in banking is fascinating.

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:23

Being able to compete in a world where AI and heavy automation is playing a large part in personalisation and pricing, we had to consolidate our structure and systems to compete

Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)09:05:15

It definitely is something different than working in banking 🙂


it depends on the project 😉

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:31

Banking use to be a very traditional sector but lately it is accelerating in tech transformation. I’n my opinion it has the opportunity to leap frog due to a lot of legacy tech. We faced a similar problem.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:45

"we set up this big plan" --> "it was going to take us years" < least surprising sequence of words so far

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:05:16

Surprising admission though, not everyone wants to fess up to that stance these days. Which I guess is a good sign

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:45

"Everyone is protecting their local revenue, their regional goals... and then COVID hit. Suddenly, 2 million customers abroad that need to be repatriated"

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:21

"The board stated, we cannot let this opportunity go to waste: we must prepare for a prolonged period of lower revenue. We had to move fast. Use this crisis to consolidate the business."

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:05

Executive buy-in starts early and is an ongoing process

Sophie Weston09:05:16

It says a lot that it was viewed as an opportunity

Adrienne Shulman09:05:51

protecting local revenue, local goals - so relatable !!

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:29

The key is not to fight the perspective. It is due to local KPIs and rewards systems. The key is to make it so rewarding or painful for them to stay local that they have to move. This usually require a lot of work on top level leaders

Adrienne Shulman10:05:09

and you did point out the importance of getting leadership on board for (any) transformation, so true. it was a great talk.

Adrienne Shulman10:05:37

I'm giving a talk tomorrow about the synergies I discovered at my org (Cornerstone) between our D&I efforts and Devops adoption. Focusing on leadership commitment was the first big lesson we learned that applies to both.

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)12:05:26

Yes, leadership commit is a tipping point. I started without that 4 years ago but build it until I had full top down commitment

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Olivier Jacques, DXC09:05:59

Interesting that transformation can be driven by either a massive increase in demand OR a massive decrease. It goes both ways.

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:26

It's the essence of being shocked into action I tend to think 🙂

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:31

3 screens have their advantage in copy pasting stuff around quickly 😂


Kind of lucky in a way. Some companies lost out far too little to innovate or even catch up to more modern ways of working.

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Gianluca Manzi09:05:50

This Consolidate NOW approach was a mandate top down? #ask-the-speaker-plenary

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:36

Yes, Aggressive top down goal is one of the keys to successful transformations

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Gianluca Manzi09:05:06

You need to have bold and visionary leaders for that 🙂 Agree

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:35

You just need one person with a vision. The leadership will either follow, or change to a space where they feel comfortable.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:09

@pieter.jordaan observation of how inefficient/ineffective it is for every regional market to implement their own booking, pricing, reservation, etc. (Sorry if I got the business processes wrong!)

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:18

Correct, this is very typical to large enterprise with smaller business units. Growing through acquisition result in major duplications across your organisation

Stijn Claes - Nike09:05:16

@pieter.jordaan how did this consolidation exercise impact the people working in the different locations?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:28

Two things helped us: 1) The need to work from hoem due to COVID forced us to a different way of working and therefore removed local boundaries very quickly. Suddenly the ‘team’ is not the office location anymore but could be anybody we placed together. 2) The business and IT decided to consolidate around product business lines. The biggest changes is for local teams to switch from being a local leader to a global leader.

Stijn Claes - Nike12:05:19

So @pieter.jordaan did you setup teams across the boundaries of the physical locations? How do you expect that to evolve as we are slowly getting back to work in the offices?

Alex Ryan Burnett09:05:21

Awesome Transformation goals @pieter.jordaan. Did you find any resistance with the Local Markets, or did everyone buy in?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:41

The top down goal helps. There is always resistance so you constantly need to help people to go through the change curve.

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Alex Ryan Burnett09:05:18

Completely agree 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:22

"If we did this the textbook way, it would take us 20 years tocompleted"

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:05

You have to be honest with yourself. It might feel safe to do it slow but you might not be able to survive if you do it slow.

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant09:05:23

“Timelines can massively help” 🪨

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:36

Interesting to hear more about consolidating "capabilities". How did you find the capability leaders @pieter.jordaan?

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:49

We were consolidating from multiple regions we typically had many experts in a business domain. Where we lack experts were in the new ‘capabilities’ being introduced .

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:05:30

I was thinking that would be part of the challenge @pieter.jordaan, that you'd have several experts, and there would be jostling for position. How did you (or others) evaluate which of the many experts would take a leading role? Or was that not a factor?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)12:05:32

We did not create roles first. We created tasks. Then gave tasks to several potential leaders. This quickly showed who already have the mindset and who do not. Then the org structure followed afterwards. So teams were forced out of their comfort of the role and had to address issues without the “role” specification.

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Vlad Ukis09:05:15

Which cloud experts did you get in?

Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)09:05:25

we worked together with AWS and Slalom UK. But key was to train as well your own people

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:47

Agree, you have to train along side. We made a conscious choice to not work with massive SI who would benefits by running our platforms. We wanted to run our platform and have the knowledge in-house. We have different Cloud Suppliers depending on our need.

Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:17

I find it incredible that this fully top down approach works. You can transform processes but not the people.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:07

Hopefully @pieter.jordaan will talk about the challenges too

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations09:05:11

The mission was top down. Unclear that the implementation was top down. Would love to hear more from @pieter.jordaan about which parts were top down vs bottom up.

Vlad Ukis09:05:37

Interested too

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:38

One of the key drivers for cultural change is single threaded leadership all pushing the same agenda 🙂 That helps a ton! In that light all parts underneath did do their part as well though.

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:57

I agree but learning and unlearning takes time.

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:21

@robert.ruzitschka, The vision “What” is top down. Aggressive Goal for the whole company. In practice the implementation is lead by Domain Owners with autonomy on they “How” the consolidation happens. The Domains have collective milestones to meet. Bring capability x live etc.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:20

"It will take us 2 years!" "We have six months."

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Alex Ryan Burnett09:05:05

The amount of times I've heard this in meetings 😅

Olav Maassen (Tasktop)09:05:06

That very much sounds like Scotty in Star Trek. 🙂

Daryl Watts (he/him)09:05:01

@pieter.jordaan with presumably massive job losses or positions affected at minimum within TUI and the industry, how did you mitigate the effects on other current staff (e.g. Service Desk staff) when moving to your consolidated approach?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:56

The transformation was not focus on jobs but tech consolidation. We redeployed existing IT resources as far as possible

Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)09:05:03

you can hear more details around this as well on our talk tomorrow. especially on role transition

Daryl Watts (he/him)09:05:34

That's very impressive - thank you both, I look forward to tomorrow's talk!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:04

"When numerous airlines failed in the UK, we could scale up capacity by 100x, showing people the value of moving to cloud." Amazing.

Sascha Schärich (DevOps Evangelist at Deutsche Telekom IT)09:05:34

Did you have a fallback in case the 6-month shift to the cloud failed? Or was it an “all-in” approach?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:53

No. We had to make it work to mitigate a large problem we faced

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:57

They key to success and momentum as to create this urgency.

Sascha Schärich (DevOps Evangelist at Deutsche Telekom IT)10:05:58

Yes, and that is what we are missing, no real sense of urgency, and through that we are moving very slow, adoption of the cloud is slow, everyone is very careful and hesitant to change. But listening to your experiences we may need to change that… 🙂

Billy Hudson - ScholarPack - DevOps Engineer09:05:35

Was the load on the selling platform considerably lower during the migration due to covid impacting bookings or was there still a considerable amount of traffic active during the migration? @pieter.jordaan

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:40

The load was the same. Because we built it into the cloud we could do testing and performance scaling much easier than if I was on prem. This was a large part of our scalability issue.

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble09:05:43

So the real kick to get going was effectively forcing the business to get on board? (Critical business process first)

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:54

Creating a win-win is key.

Jon Mayers09:05:55

cloud architecture transformation or like-for-like lift-n-shift?

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:24

For our initial migration it was 50/50.

Philip Day09:05:57

Set a 6-month target for a cloud migration Depended on new hires But... hiring usually takes many months, then onboarding, how does that square up?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:03

We picked out best internal people and peer them with external AWS Partner. They learned by doing. At the same time we had a massive learning program to train internal staff. Maybe 20% was new hires.

Philip Day10:05:00

Ah! I suspected there must be a clever solution - thanks!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:14

"Each regional market has their own revenue goals, their own CIOs... We wanted to get to a place where we did things once. This very much affected business leaders. This is the single biggest accelerator you can have"

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:41

What about the middle management? No issues at TUI? Removed them all?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:00

Middle management definitely change over the years and even within this transformation we have leadership change. I would say middle management is the most important to have to correct mindset. I focus a lot of time on this

Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead11:05:35

Thanks - but how where you able to change this in such a short time? Pretty incredible.

Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:05:45

@pieter.jordaan, how you managed skill up the stuff within 6 month? Hiring of the "thought leaders" usually takes longer

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:29

We did peering with experts from the outside and then heavily invested into training to the whole IT organisation

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Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect09:05:13

does it mean special time investment (classroom instead of business as usual) in learning/peering?

Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect09:05:20

classroom? what's that? 🙂

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:11

peer programming for the core team. For the rest we ran AWS AWSome days and also promoted certification.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:51

"Each protecting their own little KPIs" 😂😂😂

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Luke Rettig - Target09:05:09

at least they were little?!?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech09:05:58

So many obvious remarks on the size of the KPI, so little value 🙂

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Adrian (Tasktop)09:05:39

really stark reminder of the dangers of silos and proxy metrics. Fantastic case study Pieter!

Akis Sklavounakis09:05:48

'Metrics drive behaviour'...

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:14

Thank you for posting this. It is a valuable read. DO NOT give it to your boss. You might miss out on your bonus ;-)

Ali Shahadat - Engineering at Wise09:05:23

@pieter.jordaan What are the downsides you've noticed as a result of the reduction in localisation of teams and processes over time? Do you expect this organisational structure to stick for the foreseeable future, and to keep up with the demands of the localised markets across the world?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:19

It is about the balance of investment based on global benefits rather than local only, It changes the way you evaluate what you invest in. Local only investment is not typically tolerated unless for legislative reasons

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:06

I think it is also worth making a distinction between localised demand vs localised systems.

Ali Shahadat - Engineering at Wise18:05:38

Hey @pieter.jordaan Just to pick your brain on this a bit more: How have you structured the teams and the technical architecture for local partner integrations (e.g. non-global hotels, airlines, etc.)? Is it generally one org and one platform responsible for developing and maintaining the integrations for local partners across the globe, or have you split it by region/locale? How do you balance moving fast with localised integrations and keeping maintenance low over time?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)07:05:19

Localised integrations is being minimised - In fact we architect to remove local integrations completely. So it is a single platform used by local teams rather than locally integrated.

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Ali Shahadat - Engineering at Wise08:05:14

Thanks, appreciate the insight.

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike09:05:41

How centralized or distributed where decisions made @pieter.jordaan, both geo wise as well as domain wise.

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Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike09:05:35

How distributed are teams and decisions makers across the globe?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:54

Very!! We have teams that might have developers from 5 countries. The services are also distributed across all the countries we have in Europe as well as India and nearshore.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:04

"Shift from hiring GMs who managed external vendors, to hiring expertise in-house, requiring how we recruit. This required leadership mindset changes, managing the creative process.";dchild=1&amp;keywords=creativity+inc&amp;qid=1621331146&amp;s=books&amp;sprefix=Creativity+inc%2Cstripbooks%2C282&amp;sr=1-3 "Why am I reading a book about Pixar?"

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Philip Day09:05:03

This is a great book! For anyone in any job

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Jason Cox - Disney09:05:17

“Our specialized skills and mental models are challenged when we integrate with people who are different. If we can constantly change and improve our models by using technology in the pursuit of art, we keep ourselves fresh. The whole history of Pixar is a testament to this dynamic interplay.” - Ed Catmull, Creativity Inc (Chapter 10)

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Jason Cox - Disney09:05:16

“Unleashing creativity requires that we loosen the controls, accept risk, trust our colleagues, work to clear the path for them, and pay attention to anything that creates fear. Doing all these things won’t necessarily make the job of managing a creative culture easier. But ease isn’t the goal; excellence is.” - Ed Catmull

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Teri Patrick23:05:56

@genek101 @jason.cox @philipday To understand the Catmull’s influences - you also really, really need to read Loonshots, by Safi Bahcall. The author traces an approach to overcoming resistance to new ideas from Vannovar Bush - famous for developing a system for nurturing key technology breakthroughs (like radar) that helped the allies win WWII - in the face of significant official resistance. Catmull appears towards the end, one of many in a chain of astonishing innovators - who learned from Bush or his disciples. These ideas belong in the DevOps universe. Value flow starts with the idea. This book backs up to the moment of birth - and addresses the messy process of shepherding ideas from the ugly baby stage to maturity.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair23:05:08

Dr @ronwestrum mention Bush to me when I interviewed him! We’ll Reread that book! Thank you!

Randy Shoup00:05:36

Really similar to the precepts at Xerox PARC, where Ed Catmull's Pixar cofounder Alvy Ray Smith worked prior to working with Ed at New York Tech. Also inspired by ARPAnet, Bush, and others. (Alvy was a collaborator with my Dad on computer graphics at PARC; they later shared an Academy Award for early videographics 🙂 . Now I'm remembering that when Creativity, Inc. first came out, my Dad and I went to a Computer History Museum talk by Ed, which ended up being a reunion of all these 1970s-generation computer researchers, including Alvy, Don Knuth, and others. They all knew each other! Alvy was kidding Knuth that he'd never finish TAOCP.)

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:45

"This is a mindset"

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Randy Shoup09:05:48

Mindset, not a toolset!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:22

Hi, @rshoup — so glad you're here, buddy!!! 3am here in PT! :)

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Exactly @rshoup, not always well understood by some teams willing to jump on the trendy bandwagon called DevOps

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Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)09:05:46

Failure to be embraced as a route to creativity. Fully on board with this. This bit is key

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Is it failure if you benefit/learn from it?

Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)09:05:10

Totally, well said. There is no failure. There is only learning 🙂

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:22

Curious… so with revenue being squeezed, they were ok hiring? Or did they eliminate many roles to make room?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:47

We redeployed existing employees. The focus in IT was not cost saving but IT system consolidation. We actually had to ramp-up resources and staff.

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:39

Yes, but that was more common in IT.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:39

“The Cloud is oxygen”

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:15

"Our goal is to retire data centers, not slowly migrate app by app."

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Abhinav Bansal - Morgan Stanley09:05:26

We need leaders not managers to drive transformation!

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Kavleen - Product Specialist09:05:43

Let IT consolidate and then business 🙂

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Abhinav Bansal - Morgan Stanley09:05:05

Product -> Agile Cloud -> Devops

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:20

This is a key abstraction. Focussing on Cloud and Product is higher level goals enable Agile and DevOps to mature in a context that allow them to grow.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:07

"Business is organised around IT systems" => it is all our business

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Luke Rettig - Target09:05:05

such a shift in mindset for so many, but when it happens, its a beautiful thing

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:45

If I'm tempted to say "the business", I try to say "our business" instead

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Luke Rettig - Target09:05:31

love it. I make it an emphasis this with our collectives teams: our customers, our users, our process, our capabilities…

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Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)09:05:14

Product helps you become agile organisation.

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:15

“Don’t solve a problem you are not yet facing.” Yessssssss. I’ve seen this a lot with those who say, “We’re building for the future.”

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:09

@jeff.gallimore, agree, this is an ongoing challenge especially organisations that is coming from a world that required 5 year vendor contracts. The cloud universe it fundamentally different and allows rapid prototyping and changes.

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)11:05:12

thanks for that terrific insight. yes! organisations often fail to build flexibility and change into their contract/acquisition approaches. i see it all the time in the us federal government.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:23

I love how @pieter.jordaan demonstrates the characteristics of the technical maestro, as per @ronwestrum — high energy, high standards, great in the large, great in the small, loves walking the floor. It takes these characteristics to push the organization to where they don't necessarily want to go, to overcome their resistance.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:44

"I'm not building 10 pricing structures — I'm building one. Not 10 platforms — I'm building one."

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:35

Framing the goal this way is one of the most audacious things I've heard in years, @pieter.jordaan — it's so great, and so relevant to so many organizations!

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:21

It drives the mindset in the business to also consolidate and transform into a Product based univers

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)09:05:19

Absolutely. I once discussed with a customer that they needed to first rationalize on products and services before rationalizing their IT landscape. It was a similar conversation, but sadly I did not get the amazing outcome that @pieter.jordaan managed here!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:11

"Serverless and Step Functions first."

Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead09:05:17

"A capability exists once" certainly resonates!

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Gianluca Manzi09:05:26

Great example of IT not only sitting at the business table, but "designing and leading the table"

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)09:05:11

"Build it once but right", is a sentence I've heard a lot throughout this 🙂

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yes! but decide the right one first!

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)11:05:08

@philipp.boeschen650, it is actually becoming culture in our organisation and we forget how hard it was to get this accepted.

James Simon09:05:53

What do you do about all of the "special" folks that need to have different requirements than everyone else?

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)11:05:20

VERY good question: Moving business from value flow (most customer benefits first) is the key. This is a key concept of the flow metrics in Project to Product.

Jeremy McGee09:05:57

Interesting. "Capability exists once" -- @pieter.jordaan, how does that work between different business areas -- who drives the backlog? What happens to those teams that are 'left behind' and de-prioritized -- do they go ahead and build their own things?

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Jeremy McGee09:05:24

Put another way, how does the organisation resolve the tension between 'federal' de-centralised approaches and centralised teams?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:39

The business areas also have to consolidate .i.e. if I had 5 pricing teams they have to consolidate to a single pricing team that use a pricing systems the best way to fit their market’s pricing need

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)09:05:54

So do you have a Pricing API factory then?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)11:05:59

No. We opted against factories. We decided to migrate whole products at a time. We launch seasons of holiday products. So a whole new season is launched on the new system while the old system is being sold off and get deprecated. It is to hard to deal with factory patterns across 15 countries.

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)11:05:48

The underlying meta and master data, pricing models and contract data makes it impossible to approach the problem that way.

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:04

Thanks, Pieter! That’s helpful

Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:11

One last question - if you have time: how do you handle cross-cutting concerns in multiple products? For example an authoritative data source, like flights or reservations or something like that?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:29

"Delayed benefits: the slower we get these programs completed, the longer we're deferring the benefits we're supposed to get!" (Like shutting down data centers, migrating to cloud)

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:05:01

For more from TUI Group, be sure to catch @christian.rudolph, @philipp.boeschen650 and @lisa.dahms tomorrow @ 1:20p BST! Here's the link to tomorrow's presentation, Digital Transformation When Goliath is Not a Competitor But a Global Pandemic:

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:05:01

For more from TUI Group, be sure to catch @christian.rudolph, @philipp.boeschen650 and @lisa.dahms tomorrow @ 1:20p BST! Here's the link to tomorrow's presentation, Digital Transformation When Goliath is Not a Competitor But a Global Pandemic:

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Philip Day09:05:05

This is a great talk, yielding lots of questions we'd love to ask

Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:05:51

Here's the link to tomorrow's presentation, Digital Transformation When Goliath is Not a Competitor But a Global Pandemic:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:05:04

The other presentation from TUI is amazing: excerpt from their abstract: > How do you transform your IT – technologies, workforce, skill and culture - while the business is - disrupted to its maximum? > How do you cope with losing 1/3 of your IT resources overnight? > How do you still increase your deployment speed? > How do you enable an international workforce to work seamlessly on new features? >

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Michael Bird - Senior Architect, UPMC09:05:03

Must be nice to throw everything out and start over. You don't get that in health care.

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)11:05:58

You don’t get that often anywhere. We did maintain key platforms like finance, HR etc

Randy Shoup09:05:03

Transforming critical areas first optimizes for near-term ROI, avoids "change fatigue" if you leave the biggest things for last. We had this experience at eBay back ~20 years ago.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:03

How long was your change death-March?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:44

change fatigue is one of the biggest reasons and also motivations for them to transform

Randy Shoup09:05:04

It wasn't quite the same under-the-gun, but moving from a monolith to mini-applications took ~4 years

Randy Shoup09:05:26

Started with the highest revenue pages first

Michael Bird - Senior Architect, UPMC09:05:28

Ongoing now for about a year. Regulations...

Michael Bird - Senior Architect, UPMC09:05:15

Starting with an area we think will help productivity the most, then the part that is changing process the most.

Vlad Ukis09:05:33

@rshoup, @pieter.jordaan what was the size of your respective dev org?

Randy Shoup09:05:40

For that 2002-6 transformation, ~1000 engineers. Migrated in parallel with upkeeping the old monolith.

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)09:05:15

@jeremy.mcgee - great question, how do you avoid the bottleneck of a single team building these capabilities? Do you use some API standards/architecture to allow federated development?

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:47

Good question. This is a longer answer but in short, yes, we develop services that deliver the capabilities. The service then has the ability to move old systems out and move to newer once as soon as they are availible.

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)09:05:02

i bet @matthew and @me1208 would have something to say about this, too. (i reference their book in lots of conversations like this)

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)09:05:46

Thanks @pieter.jordaan and @jeff.gallimore!

Randy Shoup09:05:23

Just build the giraffe!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:05:49

@pieter.jordaan with the move to one platform, interested to hear learnings around avoiding bottlenecks to flow (skills, teams, dependencies, FIFO queues of requests)

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley09:05:36

Also how the cut over from old to new happened

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Adrienne Shulman09:05:55

appreciate sharing 'textbook rules we broke', good reminder that everything is contextual, it's never one size fits all, and the answer is always depends. good to hear the logic and reasoning why you broke these conventions. great job

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)09:05:31

@pieter.jordaan It seems like there is an element of risk appetite being driven by need. Do you think the business would have been on-board for some of the more drastic steps without that pressure? In terms of learning for future transformations, I’m thinking about how to apply some of these amazing insights.

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Vlad Ukis09:05:02

I would not think so

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)09:05:03

Correct, the risk appetite definitely changed during the COVID.

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Was the risk still as high when you weren't facing as much downtime/outages? It certainly seems like you seized the initiative you were offered.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)09:05:46

Given the transformation happened with everyone working #remote, will the company be embracing that going forward (and reducing real-estate footprint)?

Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)10:05:32

yes we will go in a hybrid format. where we definitely enable more remote working. However we found as well that some people like more the office atmosphere so we will enable both. But we also see this as a challenge when we have the hybrid approach.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)19:05:24

Hybrid seems to require careful design... I've heard it described as the worst of both worlds. That said, I have seen polling split sharply into two camps, one group is dying to get back into a shared space, while the other group is now saying they desire fully-remote forever and will switch jobs if forced back into the cubicle commute. Of course it depends on the needs of the team and role, but I think there's a strong aspect of innate personality as well, likely along the introversion/extroversion dimension. Would make an interesting study (if well designed).

Craig Cook - IBM09:05:28

That's a big lesson. Moving to cloud is not simply about cost savings. It brings flexibility.

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:22

Arguably most of the benefit is about flexibility and I always believe it should be the main focus.

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Olivier Jacques, DXC10:05:16

I call it "Technical Savings" (continuing the analogy with "Technical Debt"). One of the advantage is that it gives you room to breath in case of bad days.


@nickeggleston It can always cost more. 🙂

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)18:05:27

Reminds me of the quote: "you can buy better, but you won't pay more" heh

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)18:05:53

Focus on flexibility is such a good way to put it. Companies that want to move fast and win are prepared to spend to do so for the agility and flexibility.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:13

"Help I'm looking" from @pieter.jordaan: "Biggest challenge: hiring people fast enough." So inspiring!

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Marcin Prączko10:05:12

I would say that we need to change way of hiring people. Many times there is too much time lost from business point of view to looking for 'right' candidate. We need give more chances for those who can learn fast even if on Interview they have gaps in expectations. Many people love to put extra steps to learn fast. And they will be really great contributions for organisations.

James Simon10:05:44

I am interested in how the role of Enterprise and Solutions Architects change in a DevOps Product team oriented compnay

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:00

A trend I've been seeing is figuring out the hard problems around the structure and then providing practical guidance around these. Less high sky governance more practical examples.

James Simon10:05:09

Amazingly simple, this is what I am trying to push at work

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:09

Creating simplicity is probably the hardest exercise as usual 🙂 Especially getting the governance mindset out of the day to day is a challenge

James Simon10:05:32

Yeah experiencing that for sure

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:32

I found that quality really goes over quantity, there is definitely a thing like policy fatigue... don't bombard teams with pages over pages of docs

James Simon10:05:19

I advocate the bare minimum output, trying to kill all of the wasteful documents - I prefer things like "as Code" and C4 Model Diagrams over anything. For architecture, I am pushing for things like Terraform modules, principles and guidelines

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:18

We do a ton of central terraform modules, with the added benefit of "if you use these security has already checked them and you're good to go" That works really well but scaling that is definitely an interesting challenge in internal marketing mostly

Randy Shoup10:05:00

Thanks for sharing, and great work, @pieter.jordaan!

Jason Cox - Disney10:05:01

Great talk @pieter.jordaan! 👏


There are different experience when it comes to Enterprise Cloud Adoption. To provision virtual machine on-prem - 2 weeks, to provision, VM on Enterprise owned public cloud 4 weeks - cc @genek101


There are different experience when it comes to Enterprise Cloud Adoption. To provision virtual machine on-prem - 2 weeks, to provision, VM on Enterprise owned public cloud 4 weeks - cc @genek101


Unfortunately indeed... Again mindset and alignment issues...

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:08

Thank you everybody for the questions. I will try and answers them all. Please continue in ask-the-speaker-more

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:38

Thanks so much for an engaging and super-interesting presentation!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:09

Thank you so much, @pieter.jordaan !!! 🎉 🎉 🎉

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:05:17

Next up is @fernando.cornago442, @vikalp.yadav and @andreia.otto from team adidas!

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Ben Connolly, Head of Engineering, Vodafone10:05:19

Loved that @pieter.jordaan! 👏

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)10:05:19

“I would like to hear about your pain; share my pain.” 😆 🙏👏

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👏:skin-tone-5: @pieter.jordaan great Talk

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I'm interested in how you maintained a culture of safety in vulnerability - this was an adapt quickly or die scenario? Are you still evaluating any human cost?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:06

This is an ongoing process and we keep re-iterate the needs for “feeling safe”. It underpins agile and we have to have visibility. Luckily the transformations goal is not cost saving but tech consolidation. We are redeploying all our IT staff as much as possible. The pressure of such aggressive goals is double edge as it give purpose but also needs to be balanced to make sure you do not burnout your people.


Fascinating talk and challenge... Thank you.

Adrian (Tasktop)10:05:31

inspiring talk @pieter.jordaan congrats to you and the whole team!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:42

Up next: @fernando.cornago442 @vikalp.yadav @andreia.otto from adidas!

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:44

Thanks very much @pieter.jordaan! Great story and lessons learned.

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)10:05:06

Let’s gooooo @fernando.cornago442!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:14

Never waste a good crisis. I wonder how much timing and an extreme crisis in travel enabled this, where otherwise there would not be the appetite?

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:17

You'd be surprised how many discussions get cut very short when you lost 98% of your current revenue 🙂 We wrote a little piece on some of it over at as well maybe that helps

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:36

Thanks @philipp.boeschen650

David Read10:05:01

Ah, this is a big outcome: > we reduced our net burn rate by 70% in just three months

David Read10:05:21

I definitely like the idea of doing less, but doing it well

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:09

Yeah the whole concept of limiting work in progress at that large of a scale was interesting to discover during my research for this! Reducing context switching and opportunities for conflicting objectives is a really big win

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)14:05:01, the point of the talk is that your perspective and preparedness matters: We moved from a “recipe for disaster” to facing an actual disaster - COVID. This changed our perspective on risk, value, time to market and therefore our approach to transformation. Within the context of an existing COVID disaster our perspective changed, forced a different approach which we indeed might have seen as “recipe for disaster” in the past. I tried to highlight key points which other organisations can adopt. Making such a large scale change helps to break the inevitable dependencies between IT and Business consolidation but indeed require a organisational context that is ready for it. Not having the basics in place is a “recipe for disaster”.

Ciaran Byrne10:05:16

Thank you, @pieter.jordaan 👏, a great story and great start to the proceedings!

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)10:05:17

Need 5+ minutes between talks to mentally focus on chat!!!

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Premnath TG - EY10:05:30

🙌@pieter.jordaan Great story and courageous decisions

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:44

(This is an breathtaking story of how important e-commerce has become to adidas... totally blew my mind.)

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Great talk by @pieter.jordaan - excellent selection for the opening keynote

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Congratulations to @fernando.cornago442 - on your promotion 🙂

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thank you @pieter.jordaan

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@pieter.jordaan incredible talk, very inspiring & so much read across. any tips on how to get buy in for going all in instead of being stuck in the proof of concept cycle?

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:50

It is a journey and the answer very much depend on your context of your organisation. I would focus on 1) training at ground level, 2) Influence top level. (The big cloud providers have programs to help with this)

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Premnath TG - EY10:05:27

🙌@pieter.jordaan Great story and courageous decisions

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Werner Vaarwerk10:05:39

Thank you @pieter.jordaan, great and helpful talk!

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)10:05:40

Firehose of fascinating information

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:06

PS: For those who want to share the presentation from @pieter.jordaan, here's the video! (cc @alex )

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Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)10:05:38

Thank you @genek for the opportunity

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:00

Thank you so much!!! Hopefully all the Slack messages demonstrated how much excitement you generated!!!

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Mitesh (DOES Event Staff / Engineer at Gaiwan)10:05:18

Slides and Transcripts both are available to download on the above page 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:39

adidas: 62K employees, $20B revenue. Direct to consumer: "largest growth in history: 53% growth in revenue; $4B in 2020; heading to $9B by 2025 — that will be nearly 50% of company's revenue" (!!!)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:52

"Pick the Game; then Own the Game". (I love the... uh... aggressiveness of strategy around direct to consumer)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:07

"To own the game, we will create a membership program: this requires growing Memberships to 500MM people" (!!!)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:47

"Moving from 99% wholesale channels, to 50% direct to consumer." (This never fails to blow me away, @fernando.cornago442, no matter how many times I hear this.)

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Fernando Cornago10:05:56

hello there....

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Fernando Cornago10:05:00

open for questions!

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Fernando Cornago10:05:15

I'm sittiing with the greatest @andreia.otto and @vikalp.yadav!

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Luke Rettig - Target10:05:28

fascinating to see the similarities between what Adidas is doing to what a very large US retailer 😉 is doing with its digital capabilities and its owned brands

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:34

What a dynamic marketplace... (So good to see you, @lucas.rettig ). Cc @fernando.cornago442

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:33

"We will be hiring 750 people later this year." (To support these growth initiatives. (!!!))

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Fernando Cornago10:05:56

startegy stuff is soon over and the fun part starts ;););)

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:23

I am imagining how these conversations went to head in this direction 🙂 curious how it went to start to discuss and make this shift

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:46

to start to get everyone aligned with a new vision, new strategy (if I am saying it right)

Luke Rettig - Target10:05:38

@fernando.cornago442 - did you call out data and analytics out separately for any particular reason as opposed to including it in your technology led column (your first column)?

Fernando Cornago10:05:30

it's tricky topic... we have a different organisation for DNA but their profiles integrates heavily in our teams, Data Scientist for consumer analytics or Data Engiineers in our Consumer Data ecosystems

Luke Rettig - Target10:05:14

i’m facing the same type of thing… in my mind they are so unified, in reality, i separate these out when communicating because of the organizational differences

Ciaran Byrne10:05:39

@fernando.cornago442 do you think that outsourcing of IT capabilities still has a place? do you intend to outsource any of your IT capabilities?

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Fernando Cornago10:05:18

We outsource of the of our Non-WIN capabilitites

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Fernando Cornago10:05:24

some SaaS where we compete

Fernando Cornago10:05:47

Digital Workplace is an example of 95% externalization

Ciaran Byrne10:05:17

@fernando.cornago442 - Understood - Thanks!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:16

(I have to wonder what it felt like for the people who owned the relationships with the retail channels for adidas. Very similar to the themes brought up in the talk by @pieter.jordaan , where there was a shift in power from the regional market managers to functional specialties (e.g., booking, hotels, etc))

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:24

I was just thinking that this also has a massive impact on middle management roles. It sounds a lot like this is happening at both TUI as well as Adidas. Fits in well with the “Technical Maestro” concept that you discussed with Ron Westrum.

Fernando Cornago10:05:43

there's a constant change management needed of course

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Fernando Cornago10:05:10

but the market business owners have now much more simple comms channels with the global product ownerrs

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:25

That makes sense. Thanks for replying!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:30

Cc @fernando.cornago442 ^^^

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)10:05:49

"Engineers and Architects should speak up in product conversations" #psychological-safety

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Luke Rettig - Target10:05:12

product managers should speak <33% of the time in product conversations… vanity metric to observe in my experience

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:06

Amazing testimonials that @fernando.cornago442 showed: 🙏🙏🙏

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David Sol10:05:06

@fernando.cornago442 So México City is now one of they focus cities. I am glad. What factors did you take to you choose it?

Fernando Cornago10:05:28

It's not only volume or city-potential-value but the affection of the city in the whole market (Setting-up trends, etc.)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:02

(PS: I am always so dazzled by how @fernando.cornago442 took so much inspiration from @jason.cox [who is speaking on Thursday!])

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Fernando Cornago10:05:56

@jason.cox is my gurú and I would even call it a mentor...

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:05:17

22K Kubernetes Services? 🤯

Fernando Cornago10:05:28

24k as we speak 😉 and growing as we grow more and more in volume and customization

Fernando Cornago10:05:54

10X tech volume growth. Teams grow is at 20-30% per year

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)10:05:09

10x Growth Mindset - interesting parallel to draw between mindset and business growth!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:30

("And then we hit some crises. We had series of outage, that proved that things were no longer in our control, during period where we generate 50% of our revenue" — @fernando.cornago442 )

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Randy Shoup10:05:05

VP approvals: "we were clueless"

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Luke Rettig - Target10:05:51

sign of good things when your VPs acknowledge this

Fernando Cornago10:05:35

hahaha I do, I do

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:22

"Things got so bad that we got into situation where I was one of 3 VPs who had to sign-off on releases." (@fernando.cornago442 mentioned to me how embarrassing this was for him. 😂😂😂)

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:53

Reminds me of the CAB in a certain book 😂


@fernando.cornago442 - 22K K8S services - Opensource-vanilla or what distro?

Fernando Cornago10:05:25

39 giantswarm distro clusters in 6 regions, plain open-source k8s api

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:31

Hi @vikalp.yadav (Sr Director, Head of Digital SRE Operations, adidas)!

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hey @genek101


Great points when it comes to reliability, amazing stats about the HYPER drop 1.5 M Visits/SEC


Great to connect with you @vikalp.yadav

Ciaran Byrne10:05:03

Clueless CABs - I think a few people here might have some experience of these!

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:32

love the Consumer Experience as the DNA

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:02

"3000 orders/min; Hype Drop visits: 1.5 M/sec when shoes drop on the site" — "imagine doubling these numbers, or when we're doing one Hype Drop per day; this requires a complete shift of mindset." — @vikalp.yadav

Craig Cook - IBM10:05:08

What is a "Hype Drop"?

Andreia Otto10:05:32

high demand products sale, where our system handles high loads

Dmitry Luchnik /// adidas Data Analytics architect10:05:45

When the new Yeezy hits the shelves

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Luke Rettig - Target10:05:54

gotta get that new new simpson duffs

👍 1
Luke Rettig - Target10:05:03

adidas members just went from 500m to 500.001m

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:24

I love how this scale is on the slide and the next sentence is "ultimately this leads us to release multiple times a day" -> crazy scary and cool at the same time!


its scary and challenging and collaboration intensive

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:04

Do you have a separate set of SREs working on the reliability and the teams work together with them or are the SREs themselves embedded inside of the delivery teams? :thinking_face:


@cncook001 -- Low volume premium products available for a very short period of time . This a a major driver of adidas sales.

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thankyou 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:14

(I've heard that tens of thousands of shoes can be sold in minutes — this was for another shoe manufacturer. I got to attend two of these launches, and it blew me away. In fact, the Black Friday Launch in Unicorn Project was modeled after that experience)

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Luke Rettig - Target10:05:07

“making events non-events” was a OKR of mine circa 2017 when i led the backend data platform for tcom

Luke Rettig - Target10:05:40

i was blown away when i first got exposure to how these things were managed

Andy Sturrock10:05:49

I love how this is straight out of every book by IT Rev. It's almost like that stuff works :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: . I keep telling people this is not all some new-fangled made up magic, but has lots of research behind it and multiple case-studies showcasing successes.

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Randy Shoup10:05:54

% revenue bleed vs net sales

❤️ 5

yes! our consumer centric lens to look at interruptions and opportunities

Ciaran Byrne10:05:40

@vikalp.yadav Really interesting to hear about your journey from ITIL to SRE. I'm struggling with it at the moment . Would be very interested to hear more about how you managed that journey.

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➕ 1

happy to exchange experience !

Ciaran Byrne10:05:48

I'm up for that. Will you be around the Gather later for a chat?

👍 2
Ciaran Byrne10:05:06

How do we do that?

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)18:05:47

Hmm... I don't' think Slack does voice channels... but we could all meetup in the GatherTown and talk there. That's been going pretty well.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)00:05:47

GatherTown is still available if you (pl) want...

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:40

(As a way to distinguish the different market dynamics: e.g., some smaller regions can have longer outages where large regions cannot.)

💯 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:15

Hi, @andreia.otto (Senior Platform Engineer and SRE Lead)!!

👋 2
Andreia Otto10:05:28

hey there @genek!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:20

"3 VPs in a room to approve changes — can you imagine how time-consuming and boring this could be?" 😂😂😂

😂 7
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Vlad Ukis10:05:02

it is a Change Control Board of sorts 😄

Andy Sturrock10:05:06

normally with hugely insightful questions like "have you tested it?"

😅 9
😂 4
Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)10:05:11

You had to bring that good old chestnut 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:43

"Can you imagine how the engineering teams reacted when they got this spreadsheet that they had to fill out for each release?" 😂😂😂 These are so good, @andreia.otto !

🤯 2
Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:17

That's when you learn that Python has an Excel integration hack 😄

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:21

“Wait. There’s some other way to manage this without a spreadsheet? 🤯” 😂

😂 2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:42

@andreia.otto Checkout API: I'm guessing life can be pretty interesting at times?

😄 1
Andreia Otto10:05:17

😄 it’s the tunel where all the money flows in !

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:32

We had a little scare this morning when we weren't getting the telemetry we were expecting — exciting/stressful, but very small scale compared to what you're responsible for. Ah, launches are so fun!

Andreia Otto11:05:56

definitely yes!!


@fernando.cornago442 - is Adidas now Unicorn? 🙂

Fernando Cornago10:05:00

getting there....

❤️ 1
Fernando Cornago10:05:20

but we need to be careful... you saw the 3VPs in a room step back 😉

👋 1
Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:47

Release fitness is such a more postive way to think about it than "Release risk"

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:19

I love this release fitness dashboard, I want to have that now for our stuff 😄

❤️ 5

we will open it up on github soon

👀 3
Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:07

cc @christian.rudolph we can be excited!

😍 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:24

(I love out company culture and heritage comes out so strongly in these presentations, @gus.paul

➕ 1
Olivier Jacques, DXC10:05:06

Release based on KPIs: 💯 . Now is a good time to define and collect them

➕ 4
Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:39

We are attempting a similar approach here. Would be good to know the various KPIs that have worked well from others trying this approach

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:46

@andreia.otto How did you actually get the different teams to collect the same metrics and start aggregating them? Is there any secret sauce there?

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:50

Speaking for MS, we have a central metrics team collecting it all. It does require the orignal sources e..g incident tickets to have reasonable quality of input data though

Andreia Otto10:05:01

not really secret 🙂 we have 3 main areas, product, value stream (dependencies) and environment. Each team has to identify in their area what are the sources and if they all have the data. We have weekly connects to share the progress and if any team (in the value stream) needs something

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:10

Ah 🙂 That makes sense, I think our smallest unit would be about 14 teams right now this has a few more challenges bringing the data together so far

Andreia Otto11:05:18

yeah indeed, we decided to work with k8s deployable unit, like for us checkout api is a unit and we have 3 teams

💯 1
Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:01

It's really intriguing a k8s setup for that scale, do the standard K8s deployments still work or is there some custom engine behind? I could ask questions about that setup all day I think 😅

Andreia Otto15:05:27

😄 we have a platform team that provides k8s clusters, it’s at the end standard k8s with some HPA in place

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)15:05:10

Oh that's interesting! I assume the HPA scaling metrics are external metrics though like incoming requests and queue depths? Do you buy into any of the multi cluster management thingies or is there something homebrew for the provision?

Tim B10:05:23

interesting to here QA is treated as a different team that may block the release - we aim to only go forward for release if the QA checks have been passed.

Andreia Otto10:05:50

Not a different team, but set of QA KPIs need to be checked as well as product and environment! QAs are part of the teams

💯 1

@andreia.otto that is interesting, are the QA KPIs check the transaction flow, some end-to-ends or are solely connected with the site (services) health?

Andreia Otto10:05:55

We have both, each team focusing on the service health but also some end to end. For release fitness we use the service (k8s deployable unit) checks

🙏 1

@andreia.otto, so the release fitness pass was enough to release the code to production?

Andreia Otto15:05:36

yes, as it will collect all the metrics we need to deploy

Craig Cook - IBM10:05:37

"hype sales". I know what that is now 😀


now looking forward to see you wearing one of those "bad babies"

😂 1
Vlad Ukis10:05:59

Looks similar to Keptn capabilities

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:12

@andreia.otto How did you ensure the reliability of the dashboard inputs? Did it ever occur that you had false-positive signals (i.e. a ‘Go’ when it shouldn’t have been or a ‘No-Go’ when it could have been)? How does the feedback loop to the dashboard look? (Sorry for the many questions but fascinating talk)

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Andreia Otto10:05:16

Ask as much as you want! In prod pipeline we update the dashboard and get the latest GO/NO GO value, We started with a dry run mode in production pipelines to understand what was working and what needs improvements. When enabled, the NO GO will fail the release, then someone needs to check the dashboard, where exactly is the issue and then if it’s false positive or ok to release, we can skip the verification

👍 1
Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:55

I presume you need a pretty good test automation suite across the teams to quickly localize issues? Or was/is this still a struggle?

Andreia Otto10:05:28

it’s still working in progress, that’s why we have the blocker tickets check, those can be created manually or via automation

👍 1
Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)11:05:29

Brilliant! Thanks for answering my questions. 😊

Andreia Otto15:05:55

@saket.kulkarni you are welcome 🙂

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:05:14

❓ How did you convinced the VPs to rely on the "Release fitness" dashboard and "let it go" (beyond the cool Adidas-y name)

👀 3
David Read10:05:23

Really good question - how do you shift power from the VPs to the devs


Sounds like a good KPI to evaluate how management initiating Change/transformation programs, are actually eager to change?

Andreia Otto10:05:12

we have full support from VPs and all leadership team, moving to release fitness (and proving it works 🙂 ) bring more confidence to everyone

👍 1
Jason Cox - Disney10:05:04

Great talk @fernando.cornago442 @vikalp.yadav @andreia.otto!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:05:17

Coming up next: @ben.conrad and @mhyatt

🎉 3
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:19

Thank you @fernando.cornago @vikalp.yadav @andreia.otto !!!!

🙌 2
👏 2
🙏 1
Fernando Cornago10:05:31

Thanks @jason.cox!!! you are no neutral!!!

🙏 1

Awesome talk by Adidas team - Well done @fernando.cornago442, @vikalp.yadav

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:53

Thanks, great talk @fernando.cornago442 @vikalp.yadav @andreia.otto!

👍 1
Premnath TG - EY10:05:54

🙌@vikalp.yadav 3 pillars were great and AIOPS interesting

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)10:05:01

Thanks @fernando.cornago @vikalp.yadav @andreia.otto!

Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)10:05:05

Great talk @fernando.cornago442 @andreia.otto @vikalp.yadav

👍 3
Ciaran Byrne10:05:24

Thank you @andreia.otto @vikalp.yadav @fernando.cornago442 - a great talk, very thought provoking and demonstrative of what can be achieved. Looking forward to seeing you again next year!👏

👍 2

@andreia.otto - could you please share link/published material about Release Fitness and approach

👍 2
➕ 1
Andreia Otto10:05:58

all we have is internal still, we are working on a post to share it soon

🙏 1
Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect10:05:17

Would love to have you talk about this at SREcon (CfP opening at the end of May), conference in October

👍 1
Andreia Otto10:05:13

Sure! count on me, will be great to share it!

👍 1
Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)11:05:02

We are looking at maturing our own internal SRE capability and your talk provided a lot of inspiration

👏 1
Andreia Otto11:05:44

thank you @matthew.cobby! glad to know it!


thanks @jason.cox

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:41

That was really cool! @andreia.otto@vikalp.yadav @fernando.cornago Thanks for the insights!

❤️ 3
David Sol10:05:02

@andreia.otto So the dashboard is filled automatically? The KPI capture is done manually by the teams, at least in part?

Andreia Otto10:05:40

KPIs are coming from different sources, we use prometheus (also blackbox exporter), jira (for ticketing), custom code to get the releases of the day… all KPIs are automatically captured and dashboard updated

👍 1
David Sol10:05:04

Got it, thanks

👍 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:17

"And they did it in four weeks" (!!)

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:19

👋 Here to answer any queries about HMRC stuff. Although not defending policies, that's way above my pay grade. Will try to answer anything I can without getting fired.

😆 3
👍 4
👋 1
Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech10:05:14

First time I'm excited about anything which contains the HMRC letters in it

😂 5
😆 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:42

"Saving the Economy From Ruin (using a hyper-scale PaaS)" — what a title!

👍 1
Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:44

“Small rule changes recently”:rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

🤫 1
😂 4
Philip Day10:05:53

Nice understated Brexit reference

🙌 3

@genek101 thanks !

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:25

"HMRC is responsible for 70% of all public transactions"

David Sol10:05:32

HMR&C - "Her Majesty" - sounds romantic for us republic-living people

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:32

HMRC: the oldest organisation here!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:47

Ah, yes! Founded in the year 1200!!!

💰 1
😮 1
Philip Day10:05:03

Barnard Castle repped :thumbsup:

🙌 2
😆 2
Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech10:05:11

For the non-UK listeners we had some politicians have special needs


They're all special needs 😂 but that was a "Special" advisor wasn't it?

👍 1
Steve Smith10:05:39

@ben.conrad I salute your mention of Barnard Castle 🙇

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:05

Good to know no one picked up on it.

😎 3
👍 2
Steve Smith10:05:16

I'm surprised/horrified/frightened/impressed you mentioned it

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:42

"The most signficant economic contraction in 300 years; 2007 crisis was just a blip in comparison"

🤯 4
Steve Smith10:05:00

Great to see a HMRC/Equal Experts keynote 🙂

💯 3
Vlad Ukis10:05:26

Your platform is doing the job 🙂

Steve Smith10:05:29

Thanks Vlad. It's an amazing digital platform - many civil servants/Equal Experts folks/other parties have worked on it over the past few years. @ben.conrad @mhyatt do a great job of steering it

👍 1
Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:34

The implementation of the furlough scheme was amazingly seamless. Great to see behind the scenes how it happened

💯 4
Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)10:05:49

Wow … you found out by public broadcast what you were supposed to do? That’s sick

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:03

As I hope will become clear, we weren't directly involved in the policy, or writing the code for most of the services. But there wasn't a lot time.

Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)10:05:23

That’s what i gathered from your intro. Still awesome

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:55

"We were given 20 working days to deliver" 🤯🤯🤯 "Normally, this would take 9 months."

🤯 6
Julia Harrison10:05:25

20 days? Luxury 😉

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:59

20 days instead of 9 to 10 months!

💪 2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:30

"Ludicrous timescales" "We had no idea how many people would use this." "4 new services"

Senthil Nathan (HCL Launch - PM)10:05:47

20 working days.. Build 4 new services.. wow..

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:05

Not all four in 20 days. 20 days for JRS, 30 for SEISS.

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:13

Different teams, doing most of the work.

Senthil Nathan (HCL Launch - PM)10:05:30

thanks Ben. Still "wow" 🙂 Good work.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:02

Hypothesis: this year's DOES talks show what organisations are capable of, in a crisis

🙌 3
👀 4

They show what organisations are capable of when management get out of the way?

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)11:05:03

It is more about what you can do if you suddenly view risk in a different way and you can inspire your people

Philip Day10:05:10

“We nailed it” - congrats 🙂

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:11

…so they delivered in 1-2 weeks?

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)10:05:27

he said some services were delivered “a week or two ahead of schedule” on an original deadline of “20 working days”…

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts10:05:06

Yes, there were further services delivered ahead of time but the first one (with the 4 week deadline) was delivered JIT

👍 1

So one common theme so for in all three presentations - COVID19 helped to speed up the transformation and go faster. so COVID-19 not good for humans, but for IT Systems 🙂 cc- @genek

💯 1
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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:36

"We went from the least popular government agency to most loved" ❤️❤️❤️😂😂😂

❤️ 4
💷 1
Billy Hudson - ScholarPack - DevOps Engineer10:05:55

“A reputation for being s-terrible” 😆

✅ 1
upvotepartyparrot 3
Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:44

It was funny the first time. Once you've practiced the talk for the 20th time, not so much.

😉 1
😂 1
Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:58

It also shows even a bureauocracy can move fast wehn it needs too and you strip back the requirements to the core

💯 2

I assume bureaucracy is quite suited for being automated, provided there's a will to remove it from people's way so they can focus on providing a better service. Ultimately I would expect automated bureaucracy to bring even more consistency than humans.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:44

MDTP: Multi Channel Digital Tax Platform — 

👏 1
Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:58

if I heard correctly, leveraged a mature digital platform - had built the muscle by the time needed to use it

Philip Day10:05:05

Gov IT projects reputation - one of the biggest scandals of the 00s in UK (a competitive field) was the > £10bn NHS IT project, eventually written off

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:21

Scala!!! (Runs on the JVM) cc @stephen

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:56

Ah, beautiful logo. Which agency did this? 😂

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:02

The punchline about the MDTP logo is that I paid out £30 as a prize for it.

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:17

Considering most logos seem to be tending to boring type fonts with no link to the company, I kind of like this one. 😁

Steve Smith10:05:18

The HMRC multi-channel digital tax platform features heavily in the Equal Experts That includes a previous HMRC/Equal Experts talk at DOES...

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)10:05:21

Nice use of open source

😄 1
Adrienne Shulman10:05:35

comfort taken from expensive licenses :woman-facepalming::rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

😂 5
Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:44

@ben.conrad Curious about the selection of Scala over other options - can you share what went into that decision?

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:11

Historical. Does that answer it? It seemed a good idea at the time...

Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:45

Copy, we have some historical Scala here at FedEx too and it’s hard to find talent

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:04

There's a balance between supporting a single language, being able to really delivery amazing tools focused on that, and supporting other languages where we would need to be more generic.

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:41

Hiring is a problem for sure, although we think of Scala as an interesting gateway in some ways to ensure you get good developers.

Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:22

That’s an interesting perspective! I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:41

PS: I love Scala, but eventually chose to go down the Clojure route — two amazing languages that leverage the JVM.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:56

I thought this was a fascinating language selection as well.

Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:05:51

Thanks, Gene! What were the benefits of Clojure? I’m not that familiar with it.

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts11:05:44

@bernard.voos There are some fundamental properties of Scala/Play and the reactive programming model that suits the type and scale of interactions we see on MDTP. It's possible that we could have achieved a similar outcome with Java and e.g. DropWizard but Scala was chosen at the time by the original (small, skunkworks sort of) team that developed the very first app, and it stuck. Scala has turned out to be a pretty good choice. Technically, it works and is both reliable and performant. From a people perspective, we've been able to scale to hundreds of developers and, as Ben says, there is almost a natural barrier to entry, which means we've often attracted high-calibre engineers. Supporting another JVM language on the platform is something we often talk about. Java, Kotlin, or Clojure might fit relatively neatly into our existing stack but it would require work to adapt our tooling and we'd be introducing a potential people constraint when passing services across teams.

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC12:05:38

☝️ this is what I meant to say, but don't type fast enough.

😂 1
Bernard Voos (FedEx)13:05:02

Thanks @mhyatt!

👍 1
Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:02

70 teams , 100 deployments / day means some teams deploying multiple times per day :thumbsup:

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:36

1200 microservices, 70 teams, built by more than 2000 people — amazing scale, to deliver the capabilities needed to collect government revenue.

Kim Weins (Anchore)10:05:44

I'm curious if the platform includes the DevOps tooling or just app components

Steve Smith10:05:20

What do you mean by DevOps tooling Kim? There's more info in the EE playbook on digital platforms

👍 1
Steve Smith10:05:36

MDTP has self-service platform capabilities for build and deploy, telemetry, runtime, etc.

👍 2
Kim Weins (Anchore)10:05:09

Like CI/CD tooling, registries, repos, test tools, security tools

Kim Weins (Anchore)10:05:38

Looks like yes from this slide

Steve Smith10:05:49

It supplies a deployment pipeline, a container registry, auto-initialised code repositories, etc. It's super opinionated, a paved road

Kim Weins (Anchore)10:05:32

Cool. So is it all containerized deployment?

Steve Smith10:05:04

Yes, Scala microservices running in Docker

👍 1
Kim Weins (Anchore)10:05:05

Are you including security tooling/tests in the pipeline?

Steve Smith10:05:57

Yes, there's some details in, Equal Experts has done similar things with other clients as well

👍 1
Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts11:05:56

@kim.weins Yes, there is some security tooling built into the pipeline; Zap among others.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:53

@ben.conrad what needed to be true, to enable something that would usually take 9 months to be done in 20 days? What characteristics?

👆 2
Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:30

Missed out a load of things that are valuable.

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:59

User research, policy development, loads of stuff went out the window.

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:33

But by having a platform that forces a load of testing and by having dedicated people who knew how we operate it was (just) possible.

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Julia Harrison10:05:02

Thanks for the shout-out for GDS @mhyatt 😁

🎉 3
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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:55

I imagine there was much compliance/regulation/governance - curious is was already automated or was streamlined as part of the crisis?

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Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts11:05:14

@katharine.chajka: good question! Can you expand a little on what compliance you're interested in? The Government schemes fit into an existing tax system, so the data for the claimants was already held and in use for BAU tax purposes, as were the payment systems. The was additional rigour around fraud risking, which we touched on a little in the talk... does that help?

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:04

yes, I am not familiar with the specific regulations, but often I hear that there are steps that "have" to be manual in regulated industries, they have to be a different person or department pushing a button so 'we can't possibly" speed up certain parts of deployment/release due to compliance/regulation type concerns. That was running through my mind during your talk. It looks like somehow you were able to streamline this

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts13:05:24

Ah, that really helps, thanks @katharine.chajka When a new service is launched on MDTP, there is an established governance process to assure that: • whatever has been delivered is secure • it conforms to policy / regulatory requirements • technical best practice has been followed etc. However, once the service is live, we trust the service team to make as many changes as they need to, whenever they need to, without any further governance from the platform. Each service team has a Product Owner and an over-arching Service Manager, who between them, are ultimately responsible for the changes. For the Covid services, it's true that the road was cleared by HMRC's executive team, so that everyone was empowered to make the rapid business decisions necessary to meet the deadlines. However, from a technical perspective, the release process was entirely BAU and relied heavily upon the established tooling and culture of trust that we've worked carefully to develop over the last ~10 years.

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:00

Thinking...was this enabled because it had never been done before so the slate was clean and no preconeptions? As opposed to adjusting one of the existing systems which comes with all the opinions and stakeholders of a long term system?

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts10:05:26

Hi Gus, Yes, the platform was greenfield at the start, rather than being transformed, extended, or migrated from something else.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)10:05:11

haha this slide is great "we have strong opinions"

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:12

Strong opinions, strongly held 🙂

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)10:05:53

Standardization allows speed and scale and reduces cognitive load

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:58

Constraints enable creativity. Strongly opinionated platforms enable dev productivity.

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:01

Limited options, increase velocity overall, still an unrefined thought that I've been sitting on for a while :thinking_face:

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:21

Golden path...counter point it kind of goes against the accelerate finding that happiest teams get to choose their tools.

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Steve Smith10:05:41

Yes, there's a very interesting tension there Gus

Steve Smith10:05:50

Team empowerment is super important

Steve Smith10:05:04

At the same time, when you have 60 teams, Conway's Law means max empowerment will lead to 60 different microservice implementations

Steve Smith10:05:30

the trick is to form bi-directional feedback loops so the platform teams are constantly learning from the service teams what's good, and what isn't

Steve Smith10:05:49

and to create a sandbox that's broad and deep for service teams, in which they're empowered to solve business problems as they see fit

Markus Lauttia10:05:08

Where does the innovation take place? For example challenging some of the platform services?

Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:13

Right. And I think it was Tom Clark's ITV talk a couple of years back that hit on the fact that 80% of teams don't mind being provided with the golden path model as they will just use it

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)10:05:26

I was just having this conversation with @dana.finster . I’ve the opinion that freedom should be balanced with logistical complexity.

Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley10:05:43

if it is good and engineers have a feedback loop as you say

Steve Smith10:05:53

@gus.paul Yes, I know Tom Clark well, we've talked before about the interesting contrasts between the EE/HMRC approach and the ITV approach. Over the years, ITV gradually gravitated in our direction

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)10:05:12

My IDE doesn’t create organizational complexity. Total platform freedom makes scale work against us.

Steve Smith10:05:59

@markus.lauttia Innovation in digital services takes place on the service teams, the whole emphasis is on them solving business problems. They don't get to choose which caching tech is used, they get to choose how to handle data between 3 different govt orgs in a way that's fast and secure for users

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)10:05:15

Every language / framework adds complexity. There need to be a cost / value decision.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:05:25

Cranes and spanners on a site. Standardise the cranes. Don't standardise the spanners.

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Steve Smith10:05:35

@gus.paul Yes, the HMRC/EE platform shows if you build a really great developer experience (sorry for buzzword), developers won't moan about the tools you've chosen! They'll get on with it

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Markus Lauttia10:05:56

How I try to balance this in our organization is the old phrase "with freedom comes responsibility". I agree that most engineers don't mind of they get a lot of the backbone ready.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)11:05:45

If you build the platform for the undifferentiated heavy lifting and allow teams to make changes to it via Inner Source (ask me later) then you can take care of the boring stuff without imposing cruel constraints while allowing the service teams to innovate where it matters. You only have so many engineers. Do you want them to be building the same thing multiples times, often badly, or do you want to have them focus where they can add value. The real challenge to this is the way AWS works where every team has its own choice but they are also ruthless on enforcing accountability.

Steve Smith11:05:42

@markus.lauttia You have to iterate on it, are so important. You need to find the balance that works best for your organisation. No two digital platforms are the same

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts11:05:25

@steve.smith thanks so much for explaining the tension/trade-offs. You've done a far better job than I would have. 🙌 I'd would add, though, that devs do still moan about it... but only at the start! 😁 We tend to find that some engineers that are new to MDTP are surprised by the constraints and find it uneasy to begin with. However, after a few months, they start to see the benefits. Typically, the first thing they notice is how quickly they can get things done using the common tooling that the platform provides, which is only possible because we limit the scope of e.g. languages, or databases in use. Later on, they start to see the scale and understand that to enable 70 teams (2000+ people) and to develop 1,000+ inter-dependent microservices, quickly and without much top-down organisation, would be much harder (impossible?) to do well whilst potentially allowing people to implement 1,000 different tech stacks. Scale is key to all of this, as is platform-thinking.

Steve Smith12:05:45

@bryan.finster486 That's hard to say, as MDTP was started years ago, before "developer experience" was a thing. There's a big focus on bi-directional feedback loops, on iterating on the paved road, on modifying how and where MDTP is opinionated. It's a similar story with other digital platforms that Equal Experts has contributed to

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Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts12:05:54

@bryan.finster486: To add some more detail to the above... on MDTP currently, we have a team of ~10 engineers, whose sole focus is what Steve has described above. This team builds, maintains and enhances a suite of developer tools, using the same common components that we provide to our tenants. At this point, it gets bit meta but essentially, we eat our own dog food! That helps to provide us with first-hand insight into the DX, through the full lifecycle, including what it's like to run and debug services in production. Of course we still rely on regular, bi-directional feedback between us and our users, too. We are interested in how we can make life better for the devs on our platform, whether that's via a reduction in friction when performing a task, speed of delivery or fine-grained insight into what services are doing. We're particularly pleased with some of the tooling we've developed recently, such as Dependency-Explorer, which allows anyone operating on the platform to very quickly search across the 1,000+ microservices in our 6 environments to understand the dependencies (and transitive dependencies) for each microservice. This real-time view of what's actually going has proven extremely powerful for both the platform and our tenants. We now have far richer data when making decisions around upgrades, security and our future opinions.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)13:05:48

Awesome. It's a tough call balancing freedom with the logistics complexity that freedom brings. At Walmart we had a huge surface area of technical complexity but focusing the platform on improving developer experience certainly helped to accelerate improvement. I think treating Platform as a product with customers is very important and it sounds like you're taking that approach too.

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Steve Smith13:05:52

Agreed @bryan.finster486, that's Equal Experts' first principle on building digital platforms - We've used successfully at HMRC plus a bunch of other private/public sector organisations

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)10:05:34

@ben.conrad how much non-Scala legacy code did you need to deal with?

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Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:28

We didn't have to deal with any of it directly. We are (nearly) 100% Scala.

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Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:12

But a load of the data we needed was held in data stores which are running on something. I've heard mention of COBOL in the VAT mainframe.

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts10:05:17

I heard our COBOL developer did actually have prior experience of a global pandemic.

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Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:57

Really keen to dispel any impression that this was purely a digital service thing. There was a load of work done by other people - such as the data science people -

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems10:05:40

What led to the "Thou shalt not get AWS Creds"?

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Jeremy McGee10:05:20

sounds like an awesome way to summarise "do everything through code"

David Read10:05:02

How do devs get RDS Insights, AWS billing etc? AWS console is incredibly helpful for devs.

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:26

Security is one reason. We provide the platform, developers don't need direct access to an AWS. Billing we handle. Metrics we direct to grafana etc.

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Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC10:05:56

I'm not saying there isn't a trade off, but we abstract that away so scala developers don't need to know anything about the infrastructure.

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David Hawes-Johnson (DevOps Enablement - BT)10:05:06

Interested if the teams not following the rules do so because of a special context, or because they don't like giving away control?

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts12:05:05

@slack1599 We find that if teams have gone off-piste, a number of factors could be in play: 1. We've not done a good enough job of educating/sharing information about the common tooling or preferred patterns 2. There is a perceived special context, which 9 times out of 10 doesn't exist 3. There's a genuine constraint within the platform tooling or components that requires a team to roll their own version of something. In general, we try to avoid building snowflake services/components that are unlike everything else. But if (3) happens and it's applicable to more than just a single team, or limited usecase, then we'll work out a way of delivering the capability in a repeatable way, by changing/building a new common component.

David Hawes-Johnson (DevOps Enablement - BT)13:05:42

Thanks @mhyatt. So you don't see too many "We would rather do it ourselves" scenarios - these mainly boil down to some better partnering/education?

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts13:05:39

Yes, that's right @slack1599 This hinges, of course, on the common components actually being good! They need to offer the right capability, be easy to use, reliable, scalable etc. I'm confident that if any of those attributes weren't true, then we'd see more services attempting to build their own components. There is also a natural upfront filter, should a service have particularly left-field requirements. Any new service looking to use MDTP will know in advance about the platform's opinions and any constraints, before they decide to build on it. We have experience of service teams politely declining because they were hell-bent on using, for instance, Java with GraphQL, which we don't support. So, if a potential tenant team is sufficiently opposed to any of our opinions, they probably won't choose us in the first place.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:21

I loved how @ben.conrad talked about the challenges of dealing with hard rate limits on back-end systems and external services.

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David Read10:05:55

"IT teams working hand in glove with Digital teams"

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:17

"Load testing... then broke our logging pipeline." 😂😂😂

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)10:05:44

I would call that a successful load test. 😁

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)10:05:01

A loadtest is only successful when the SaaS provider calls you up confused 😄 I remember we had a setup that ran 2 million lambdas all of the sudden... good conversations afterwards

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Alex Ryan Burnett10:05:54

"Image shown not actual HMRC operated Datacenter. As far as I know" 😂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:05:56

"Because of legacy backend systems, we realized we had to get all the data into MDTP"

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:28

"Never give 500k people a specific time when they can claim £7,500"

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☝️ 3

8 am is too early to claim money 😂

David Read11:05:33

Giving people a time to use the website, to avoid high lodas, reminds me of

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Julia Harrison11:05:48

"Squeaky bum time" - who's gonna explain that to our American friends? 😂

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Julia Harrison11:05:19

bum = butt, so imagine being so tense it squeaks

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech11:05:08

I thought explaining the Cummings affair was a lot already 🙂

Julia Harrison11:05:30 has a different etymology but I'm not sure I buy it (something about squeaking in their seats)

Philip Day11:05:49

It's a phrase that comes from football, means "we are nervous" Actually based on a mishearing of "squeeze your bum time", I learnt recently

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)11:05:02

Squeaky bum time - good to see the Alex Ferguson classic here 😆

Hamed Silatani11:05:27

@mhyatt I love the sound of "taking a way the need of caring about infrastructure from developers". How are you managing maintenance activities that will affects applications during runtime like patching , security update, framework upgrades ?

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts12:05:59

Thanks @hamed :thumbsup: This could be a talk in its own right but at a high level: it depends on the component. Components that are under platform remit (abstracted from our tenant service teams), like AWS, Mongo, Ubuntu, or anything in an AMI, the platform teams (group of ~70 DevOps engineers) will manage with (almost always) zero downtime updates, with as much automation as possible. We make use of regular recycling etc. For changes that are required to frameworks, like a Play upgrade, the platform will provide a new, well-tested version of a common library that our tenant teams will have to pull in to their own services. This is probably the most friction we cause our tenants, so we don't do it lightly and we are constantly working on ways to reduce the overhead or make their lives easier.

Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting11:05:28

@ben.conrad So you actually migrated business logic from a mainframe to your new platform within the 20 working days you mentioned earlier?

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC11:05:53

Not the logic, no. Just the results of calculations.

Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC11:05:47

But this was relatively new territory, because there is a lot of hesitancy to hold citizen data in the public cloud.

Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting11:05:53

Ok, thanks for clarifying. Still what you did is really impressive!

Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting11:05:25

Yes, that hesitancy sound quite familiar.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:44

"Not a single complaint" great job!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:53

I recently heard something on NPR Planet Money — economists were unanimous that the most important policy was to get money into people's hands, fully cognizant that some fraud might happen. But fraud loss risk is minuscule compared to the macroeconomic risks posed by economies going into hibernation due to industry-wide shutdowns

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Two microservice sharing single database 🙂

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Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC11:05:39

I think one was only reading. Maybe...

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)09:05:28

There's always a reason excuse ❄️


Deploying Microservices on VM 🙂

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:09

Breaking "rules" == Pragmatic delivery. 😄

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:36

Perfect never ships.

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley11:05:03

There is an example of moving fast discarding things that are not needed right now....without the time pressure, releasing this without fraud control would never have got signed off

Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect11:05:13

"Services were supposed to be temporary" 🙂

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Steve Smith11:05:04

My favourite saying is "temporary is permanent"


OK, now all the four talks mentions COVID-19

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:34

"Never ask a developer to work more days in April than... the number of days in April." — @mhyatt

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)11:05:06

This is everything at the moment - so many are in this cycle as we speak.

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Julia Harrison11:05:19

All of this sounds very familiar - having to tell people to sleep and to take breaks

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)11:05:15

Sadly, yes. Especially this past year.

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)11:05:58

"Not much was happening at the time"... I can relate to projects that finished unexpectedly fully in timeline because people put in extra just because sadly they had nothing to do :((

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:15

I loved how @ben.conrad and @mhyatt described how gratifying that every engineer knew someone who benefited from the programs that they helped create. 🙏

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)11:05:30

Wonderful to see directly the value of one’s efforts

Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting11:05:30

Brilliant example of part three of autonomy, mastery and purpose.

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Andy Farmer - Tasktop11:05:16

Great talk HMRC team.

thankyou 7
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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:36

@mhyatt - how do you transition from this “emergency” culture back to sustainable ways of working?

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Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts11:05:55

We're still working that out!

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:39

We are trying to figure it out as well at FedEx

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)11:05:06

I think many organisations and teams I speak to don't know how to step down from covid working and into real flexible working

Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:48

Thanks for the amazing insights and all the fantastic work your teams have done. My team members in the UK especially appreciate it deeply.

Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts11:05:53

Our first step is talking about it, working out what the problems are, so we can go about solving them as a group. And the most immediate challenge is finding the new balance between remote/in person working.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)11:05:03

Let me know if you work it out. The organisational immune system is fighting back.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:22

As a customer(?) of HMRC, I am grateful for the work of @ben.conrad @mhyatt and colleagues 🙏

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:57

Thank you @ben.conrad @mhyatt

Ben Squires (HORIBA Test Automation)11:05:06

@ben.conrad @mhyatt Great talk - The people of the UK owe you and your team an immense amount of gratitude - thank you!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:06

THANK YOU, @ben.conrad and @mhyatt ! What an incredible achievement!!

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thankyou 1
Philip Day11:05:10

Awesome talk! Expands our concept of the possible.

thankyou 1
Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)11:05:21

That was brilliant - thank you!

thankyou 1
Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)11:05:25

"How to save an economy in a pandemic" - So beautifully understated

Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:05:25

And now, a warm welcome to @cstrear!

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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)11:05:26

Thank you @ben.conrad, @mhyatt. Great talk and great insights

thankyou 1
Steve Smith11:05:40

Congrats @ben.conrad @mhyatt 👏

thankyou 1
Kim Weins (Anchore)11:05:46

I really enjoyed the talk (and the humor)!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:58

Hello, Dr. Chris Strear — he's a medical doctor! So I should say, Chris Strear, MD. @cstrear

Alex Ryan Burnett11:05:03

Amazing! Thanks @ben.conrad & @mhyatt - really enjoyed that, and amazing to learn more about the behind the scenes 🙂

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thankyou 1
Andy Farmer - Tasktop11:05:38

It really says something that the HMRC team were able to deliver near enough at the same speed as government decision making during a period of crisis - gives lots of confidence in the UK gov ability to execute when needed - well done team! Very good point that the teams need to be able to avoid burnout to ensure they can keep delivering at pace in the future, e.g. not by cracking the whip - but by identifying improvements in ways of working / process bottlenecks etc.

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Ben Conrad - Delivery Person, HMRC12:05:59

I wouldn't be entirely confident that the UK government is all that joined up I'm afraid. Just as likely to bump into colleagues from other departments at an event like this as anywhere else, and I have very little insight into how other departments operate.

Andy Farmer - Tasktop14:05:38

On the plus side - shows the value of events like these! 🙂

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:09

Oh this will be interesting 👀 Super excited for this!

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Chris Strear11:05:02

Thank you for the book shout out, Gene!


+1 And the transposition in IT with Phoenix and Unicorn Projects!

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:37

Hospital triage is such an interesting field to look at when you're having loads of fires burning in your platform... inspiring stuff

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:06

I swear our local hospital read The Goal between my first and second COVID shot. :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:07

"60 hours/month on ambulance diversion; one month, we hit 200 hours; where we have to turn away the sickest people in our community"

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João Brandão (jbr)11:05:17

incredible how the knowledge of a book can be applied to every business and reality

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:53

Everything is devops. Devops is first principles.

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:34

My colleague and I were talking just last week about how slowly DevOps made its way into data. Still closer to tech than health but a similar analogy

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:34

"we were just waiting around waiting for something bad to happen"

James Simon11:05:47

Does anyone out there make reading certain books mandatory?

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)11:05:13

I like the idea. Especially for the Unicorn Project and some others. I blogged a list awhile back:

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)11:05:20

What others would you recommend?

Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting11:05:23

I credit @genek101. He certainlly had a heavy influence on my reading list.


Should do at work... Keep telling them that Phoenix is not necessarily the best name for a project... Joke aside, would be good to have more people read the itrevolution books among others...

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AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)11:05:11

I agree, many thanks to @genek

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:48

"Committee for flow" 👍

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:05

"I had read one book... but that was one more book than anyone else had read. So I became the de facto leader."

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)11:05:31

Happens more than you would think

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:07

We've got a joke around: "You can spell the word, now you're the expert" And there is some truth to that sometimes...

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)11:05:15

There’s actually a Dutch proverb dedicated to this (loosely translated): “In the land of the blind, one-eye is king.”

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:40

Oh yeah German has a similar one

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:41

You can make a career of staying one chapter ahead.

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:16

Most consultants are only 15 minutes ahead of you... the truth in that is surprising

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)11:05:49

And that’s if you have a relatively good one. 😉

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:20

Yeah, I was talking to a friend last night who was sharing consultant issues where they were a couple years behind.

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)11:05:00

The shift to product focused organizations means that people at these companies actually get more experience in the agile/devops space than many consultants. It’s no longer purely about technology stack, etc.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:12

60 hrs a month to 45 mins a month on ambulance diversion!

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Chris Strear11:05:46

Both testimony to the power of TOC and sad commentary on the state of flow knowledge in hospitals

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Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)11:05:59

this sounds familiar 😞

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:10

Shows how important senior leadership advocacy is

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:22

Sad to hear of that slip back

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)11:05:28

i’m still looking for examples of a (positive) transformation that sticks beyond a leadership transition

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:21

@jeff.gallimore yup. Culture. Looking forward to hearing from Ron Westrum later

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:57

"She didn't see a flow problem, so they dissolved the program."

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I hate how every new manager seems to feel the need to make changes to justify themselves. Even more-so when they have no idea why things are the way they are.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:12

"within 5 minutes could tell what hospitals would be successful"

David Sampimon (ING)11:05:09

Are other people also getting choppy audio, or is it just me?

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David Sampimon (ING)11:05:33

Thanks, Ill reconnect, hope it clears

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:20

Here’s a picture of @cstrear and I touring the mass vaccination site at Portland Convention Center, where they’re vaccinating 8K people per day, up from 2K per day. It was incredible. Our thanks to Trent Green, COO, Legacy Health.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)11:05:25

One major structural problem in hospital provisioning is requiring competitors to sign off on a certificate of need before one can be built. :thinking_face:

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)11:05:33

such a common issue, LT team changes out and all the learnings the pervious LT org had is lost and bring in "changes" - destined to repeat history

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)11:05:46

And the question we always ask is are their changes just driven by ego and wanting to 'make their mark'

Stijn Claes - Nike11:05:55

Love this talk @cstrear

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:05

"How come the same team, same mission can do such a phenomenal job in the vaccination setting (heroically adapting, increasing capacity, unleashing human creativity), are unable to do this in the larger healthcare setting."

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:15

Just an open AMA with @cstrear would be amazing I think :thinking_face: So many good insights already!

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David Read11:05:38

Wow, hundreds of staff in a football stadium only being able to vaccinate 200 people a day, before the changes were introduced to increase that

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:46

@cstrear If you're up for hosting a Q&A session, just coordinate with @annp !

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Chris Strear11:05:56

Any time!

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)11:05:18

I’d absolutely love to hear more! It’s so fascinating hearing from a different industry and share experiences!

➕ 4
Steve Smith11:05:25

"It's hard to look at a broken system, when you can't change it". I can relate. Thanks for the reflections @cstrear 👍

Sophie Weston11:05:49

"Constraint Management" - that should be a thing in more organisations I feel!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:06

Congrats to @cstrear for his new role as CMO — in the US, if I understand correctly, the COO and CMO are the two people who make any healthcare system work.

🎉 9
Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)11:05:49

We need this type of leadership badly in the medical organisations. “Black Box Thinking” highlights the difference between how Medical approach errors/mistakes and aviation approaches mistakes. Flow is an essential to master.

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:24

Seen similar issues with flow in a medical lab my mum works in, it's crazy to see it everywhere in essence...

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:54

love this observation on create bandwidth

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)11:05:05

"Important to leaders in words and deeds" - people see through just words so fast

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Luke Rettig - Target11:05:21

16 enterprise priorities :thinking_face: … what could go wrong?

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech11:05:31

Same goes for #psychological-safety - can't be priority #16

Chris Strear11:05:35

I believe flow should be taught to all providers in school or residency so fundamental skills in patient flow are common knowledge the same way diabetes management is common knowledge

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)11:05:46

I know what will be on the learning curriculum for all the folks at the new organization you’re joining!

Luke Rettig - Target11:05:15

i have similar beliefs for value stream mapping, flow, and theory of constraints training for Product teams and their nearest neighbors

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:05:53

Reminds me of “improving daily work is as important as daily work”…

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:30

TWWADI: The Way We've Always Done It

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:37

Don’t allow “no” 💯

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)11:05:45

I read a quote from Allen Holub recently: “Teams aren’t agile, Organizations are agile.” That’s what @cstrear’s comment on looking at flow across the hospital rather than just in silos reminds me of.

James Simon11:05:03

Here comes the Deming lesson

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)11:05:11

Measuring correctly is critical, as it drives incentives and behavior

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James Simon11:05:13

Simple and almost completely ignored

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)11:05:25

Shout out also to Niklas Modig (This is Lean) and his work concerning optimizing medical services

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:26

If you only optimise inside of your own subsystem you risk "local optimization with global degradation"

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Randy Shoup11:05:38

Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. Never ascribe to incompetence what can adequately be explained by perverse incentives.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:42

There is so much wisdom in this talk that healthcare infrastructure administrators can learn from to deal with the pandemic.

Tim Wyatt11:05:42

Measuring is the key thing, TWWADI gets in the way of that....

Luke Rettig - Target11:05:34

the way we’ve always done it

Luke Rettig - Target11:05:42

hi @bryan.finster486 👋

Tim Wyatt11:05:18

TWADDI - The Way We've Always Done It

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:04

Working on a talk this second on measuring better. The goals for measuring are so often wrong.

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:49

We need to make sure teams are meeting their commitments! To improve our “Agile Maturity”. :face_palm:

Tim Wyatt11:05:05

the key challenge with the "digitalisation" of "agile" is that information gets hidden

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:47

Yes, building the infrastructure to expose it and thoughtfully choosing tools to make it easier for the daily work to generate useful data is challenging

Tim Wyatt11:05:14

yep, but also need the ambition.....

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:00

You never want to be flying an F16 in the fog with the instrument panel from a Sopwith Camel

Tim Wyatt11:05:20

Sopwith Camel Pilot: "Instrument panel?" 😄

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:45

I mean, they had an altimeter, compass, and clock. What else do you need?

Tim Wyatt11:05:55

My favourite part is regulating speed by switching cylinders on and off....

Tim Wyatt11:05:31

I'm now looking forward to your talk on "DevOps Lessons from the Sopwith Camel" 😄

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:05

LOL. I'm trying to decide the best analogy to make in this talk. F1 car telemetry? Aircraft telemetry? Still working on it.

Davy Kenis11:05:43

funny fact about priorities, within the 1400 the word was only known as singular, PRIORITY. It’s only by the 1900 we suddenly pluralized the term and created multiple PRIORITIES

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant11:05:56

Thanks for adding this talk to the mix.

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Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:25

Over the last years these cross industry talks have always been mindblowing without fail 🤯

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff11:05:38

Dr. Chris Strear’s video is live in the Video Library:

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)11:05:49

Appropriate and thoughtful measuring is so important.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:05:47

Great talk, thanks for sharing @cstrear

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:01

Thank you so much, Dr. @cstrear !!! 🎉❤️

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Chris Strear11:05:04

Thank you for listening everyone!

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:17

thanks for sharing! Can't wait to check out the book!

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)11:05:36

it has been on my mind for a long time for how to help out health care with Flow and TOC

Philipp Böschen, TUI, DevOps Coach, (he/him)11:05:06

This was incredible @cstrear looking forward to the Q&A already!

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Tino Dietel, Tradebyte, Engineering Lead11:05:11

hearing experiences from totally different sectors is so interesting!

Larry Davis11:05:17

This talk crosses my vocation and avocation - IT and volunteer care provider. Heartfelt. Thanks @cstrear.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:49

I’m so delighted that all the plenary talks from this morning are available to be shared!  Here are the links: • How to DevOps the Hell Out of Your Covid Crisis — • From 6-Eye Principle to Release at Scale – adidas Digital Tech 2021 — • Saving the Economy From Ruin (with a hyperscale PaaS) — • Leadership Lessons Learned From Improving Flow In Hospital Settings using Theory of Constraints —

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Mitesh (DOES Event Staff / Engineer at Gaiwan)11:05:46

Don't miss out on the "Slides" and "Transcript" (if available) buttons below the video! :dancer:

Pieter Jordaan (CTO -TUI Group)11:05:54

Great talk @cstrear

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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)11:05:19

Very inspiring talk @cstrear. Thank you for sharing your experiences

➕ 2
Philip Day11:05:31

Is the concept of rewards/incentives toxic in healthcare? Surely people are in there because they want to do the right thing + dependable, decent salary. Or indeed in any business? cf: Netflix don't pay bonuses; Niels Pflaeging argues against bonuses

David Sol11:05:01

Dealing with really live and dead systems. Great talk, @cstrear!

Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:05:50

If you'd like to hear more and interact with @cstrear, he'll be in this Zoom for the next 20 minutes!

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff11:05:00

<!here> if you want to continue the conversation with Dr. Chris Strear, head to this zoom room!

🙌 4
Olivier Jacques, DXC12:05:23

📚 Great talks so far! Did I miss anything from all the books mentioned so far in talks or Slack? Feel free to add it to the list 👇 (or

🙌 5
Pedro Figueiredo - Software Engineer - Bial12:05:00

could you lower the music volume please?

Ali Shahadat - Engineering at Wise12:05:43

You wanna be on the Track 4 stream link. The other streams have the talk audio mixed with background music for some reason.

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Matt Hyatt - Delivery Consultant Equal Experts13:05:53

Hey folks, here's another HMRC/Equal Experts talk, it's on tomorrow night morning, it's free... and it'll be good!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution16:05:20

Excited and honored to welcome back @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton508 from American Airlines - starting in 5 minutes!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:39

Thank you so much @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton410!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:00

“that’s a load of 2020” 😂😂😂

Ross Clanton16:05:23

Most of last year was a "load of 2020" 😹

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Ciaran Byrne16:05:15

@genek " the full Gene Kim experience"... sounds like a good name for a band!

😂 5
Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)16:05:19

Pretty sure there is a Peel Sessions release with them

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:57

@ross.clanton410: @levi.geinert500 and I were just talking about you in Gather!

upvotepartyparrot 1
Levi Geinert17:05:15

Is @ross.clanton410 here?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:05:20

You missed him when he was answering questions during his talk! 😂😂

Maya Leibman16:05:08

It's a 5-star experience @ciaran.byrne! Highly recommend

😂 1
Frances Paulisch16:05:39

stop making excuses! great advice.

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:07

I like that VS Mapping as bonding experience!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:50

😂😂😂 It was so great to see Maya in her element — @ross.clanton410 talks about this later in this presentation, about how profoundly leadership matters. (Doesn’t seem quite fair that I’ve seen all these talks before you. 🙂

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:09

MVP is seen as a dirty word in my area unfortunately 😜

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:05:16

Even better bonding experience when the business and finance participate in the bonding!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:23

Maximum Viable. Has anyone actually delivered on that? Like in anything? Maximum Viable Dental Floss or Maximum Viable Matches?

Adrienne Shulman16:05:26

VS Mapping with psychological saftey: "oh thats what you do" - have to be careful it doesnt go into the office space "what exactly do you do here?" :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Eduardo Hans16:05:27

Any tips / tools to help teams doing a VSM while remote? It's really good when you do it f2f, but curious to hear what creative ways teams are going around this obstacle


We have a session Thursday with some ideas. COVID happened now what

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:45

watched it done in powerpoint on OneDrive, wondering if mural may be better

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Ross Clanton16:05:00

Doing these things remote have been a challenge for sure. We leverage Mural for most of our remote collaboration, whiteboard, etc... It works relatively well. Doesn't replace in person, and coaching/facilitation is critical.

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Eduardo Hans16:05:00

@rradclif Excellent thank you!

Peter Maddison17:05:04

@eduardo.hans We've run lots of VSM and other mapping sessions remotely. Mural is the tool of choice as the learning curve is lower we've found for new users.

thankyou 1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:41

"Designed to make you give up"!

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➕ 1
jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)16:05:09

so many feels about that one… :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: 😭

Chris Shuknecht16:05:44

I hear MVP a lot but struggle because it hardly seems to be wrapped in learning... "Just cram all the things in this product because we need it"

Maya Leibman16:05:56

Totally @shuknechtcj It took a lot of time and a lot of trust with our business colleagues before everything wasn't crammed into the MVP

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Chris Shuknecht16:05:49

Glad it seems you've found a way through @maya.leibman!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:07

“a process designed to make you give up”. OMG. (“If they really wanted it, they’d still be lobbying, right?“)

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)16:05:00

Sadly this is a reality in a lot of bureaucracies.

Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:41

+ the war of attrition ... so relevant for so many!

Ciaran Byrne16:05:50

@maya.leibman great points about financial approval challenges...

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:50

keen to understand the finance bit. We still can't get over finance approval boards and planning a year in advance

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Fokko V.16:05:28

Check the FinOps session from earlier today 🙂

👍 1
Maya Leibman16:05:42

@eazyd247 It's not easy. Took a lot of time and trust before we got to a good place with our finance colleagues

Ross Clanton16:05:01

Finding a strong leader/partner in Finance to help lead and champion this shift is critical.

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:53

very often I've found it's at the LT level that still insist on these kind of finance boards - either LT within the business or Finance. I guess it all comes down to getting org change at a high enough level

Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:15

In my experience of working with complex orgs moving from project to product: • The finance teams need to be included as an interested stakeholder to open the door to change on this. • It really can be a fundamental shift in thinking for finance orgs so the need for willing, enthusiastic stakeholders to 'dip their toe in the water' the start must not be underestimated! Find them and you can find change. • There is no 'blueprint' for how finance should make the shift - because every company is different, as is every companies approach to executive and team bonus/incentives - but involving finance in the journey from the start is key if you want to change any time soon. • One of the best 'carrots' for finance to get enthusiastic about a change has been the opportunity to measure 'Value' instead of just measuring 'Costs'. Some finance teams just love the opportunity to drive the business around Value instead of just cost! If you can find a senior finance stakeholder who embraces new ideas and wants to help teams deliver more Value to stay competitive (rather than just reduce costs to meet a target) - then they are well worth bringing into your 'coalition of the willing'. Stick to them like glue!

Adrienne Shulman16:05:02

IT is "drunk and disorderly" wait, was that a compliment or a dig?

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David Read16:05:31

no oversight, unaccountable. no-one said this to Picasso 😉

Bernard Voos (FedEx)16:05:09

@maya.leibman - love the meme!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:25

This is so interesting — there are so many talks later this week about how so many organizations are struggling with OKRs, because they can’t suppress the temptation to micromanage objective setting many layers down. In fact, @mik talks about this tomorrow in a 15m mini-lecture.

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:05:14

Yes, fascinating how OKRs can either impede, or accelerate flow, depending on how they are adopted and what they cascade down, and how far they cascade.

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)16:05:27

OKRs definitely seem to be a theme/thread this year…

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:05:35

Yes, fascinating how much of a theme it is!

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:36

great experiment in year 1!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:50

PS: @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton410: I so much enjoyed your interview with @mik —

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:07

@genek Fancy that. People managed to make OKRs into a micromanagement practice.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:13

Pilot of product funding model 💯

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:01

(great job on this at American Airlines)

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Tim B16:05:01

having a bucket of money to spend on a product is almost like the old skool project funding - hello Mr PM, here's your money...go deliver. Gives a lot of freedom for quick decisions.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:27

love this slide on the journey to outcomes

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:55

Outputs and outcomes... THERE IS A DIFFERENCE

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Adrienne Shulman16:05:33

"objective: train x% of people" - been there, done that :face_with_rolling_eyes:

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:38

oh goodness "what's a product" - "more tortured" sounds about right

😀 3
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:52

"Product: there is no one right answer. Get going and pivot"

❤️ 1
Maya Leibman16:05:14

learned that from you @jonathansmart1!

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🙏 1

Are there slides to support this session?


Thanks Alex, but I'm not sure they are included - at least in github, from where I collected them

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff16:05:48

I’ll have them attached to the video in the video library pretty soon after the talk finishes


Thank you 👍


Awesome, have them now...

David Read16:05:05

a "taxonomy" is a list of your products?

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:00

Umm... yes, and a hierarchy of concepts

Ross Clanton16:05:14 our Product Taxonomy is essentially our grouping of Products, mapped in to Product Groups and Portfolios.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:36

Yes, indeed, @smansfield — slides are in the video library. URL to be posted at end of talk. (I think transcript, too!) cc @alex

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:05:37

6 product owners for a product! That would require some very serious bonding.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:28

How serious... in pints of beers scale?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:24

I love this story about so many tortured and existential (and occasionally pedantic, but eventually necessary) discussions.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:30

12 pizza size team :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:05:55

I love that this picture of Ross lives on 🙂

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:59

THAT is what we've been missing! More Unicorn!!!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:08

Just knowing that you have unknowns you don't know is a big know 😉

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‼️ 2
Adrienne Shulman16:05:14

dont i know it

Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:14

If you know, you know!😂

Adrienne Shulman17:05:47

but if you didnt know now you know

Adrienne Shulman17:05:04

😜 can we tell its the end of the day?

😁 1
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:26

@jonathansmart1 I think Business Agility needs the concept of two-keg team.

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble16:05:32

That's quite a small corporate team.... 😂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:47

A real team should be able to form, norm, storm and ...orm.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:20

"So far, we've been trying to do this sober. That has proven in vain."

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble16:05:23

@maya.leibman - How do you engage your business colleagues on their risk appetite? What were some challenges on embracing change and managing risk differently?

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:05:58

I find that a a really important factor that @ross.clanton410 just mentioned, organizational focus on executing on the transformation not constantly needing to sell it internally.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:40

Awwyeah! Change that happens without nudging.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:29

…that must have been an amazing call with Doug Parker, CEO, American Airlines, @ross.clanton410…

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Ross Clanton16:05:57

It was pretty awesome to get a call from the CEO to talk about how important our Delivery Transformation was. That was a nice first for my career...

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:37

So cool — I’m glad you didn’t yell, “stop prank calling me!” and hang up. 🙂

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:01

"how do we get everyone to act and think this way" - great values

Maya Leibman16:05:01

Great question It's a long process and involves building trust and gaining wins (like faster delivery and happier teams). Once we had one champion on board, others pointed to that and said "hey - I want that." That allowed us to say "ok, if you want that, you need to do this (e.g. create a PO role)"

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble16:05:57

Super clear, the hardest part is to captivate your first champion. Thank you!

Maya Leibman16:05:41

Totally. But I think you just need one covert and others line up.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:03

It’s astounding to hear how leaders talk differently in this new game, where innovation is being unleashed at the edge.

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Tim B16:05:11

Collaboration over silos - what techniques did you use to manage the dependancies?

Ross Clanton16:05:57

Technically we are focused on Tech Modernization and removing arch dependencies as much as possible (API driven, Event driven arch, Cloud Native patterns, etc...). From a planning perspective we are working on scaling cross-product prioritization model which ensure we can discuss and prioritize across the dependencies. Definitely still a work in progress, but we're getting better every day.

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Tim B16:05:55

Thanks @ross.clanton508 - thats the same journey we are on. The planning perspective is key - if you can't have a cross product priorities its almost a non starter.

Dave Karow (Split - Sr. Progressive Delivery Advocate)16:05:33

I think we all know that culture eats strategy for breakfast (@ross.clanton508 I love this quote)

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Dave Karow (Split - Sr. Progressive Delivery Advocate)16:05:21

^reminds me of "What you do speaks so loudly, I can't hear what you are saying."

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Chris Gallivan, Stellantis, Value Stream Architect16:05:14

Does this approach apply as well to safety critical software in the air ?

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Maya Leibman16:05:22

For sure @chris.gallivan278. This approach is all about delivering value faster and safer and our critical safety software needs that most of all

Maya Leibman16:05:47

We didn't want to focus on just "some" teams. We wanted to bring the whole organization along on this journey.

Adrienne Shulman16:05:16

"The only sustainable competitive advantage is an organization's ability to learn and adapt faster than the competition" true at the organization level but rings true at the individual level too 🤓

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:47

@ross.clanton410 I was talking with @levi.geinert500 about this — @steve773 observed how miraculous it is that we have FIVE COVID vaccines that are approved for use right now, developed and manufactured at scale in less than 14 months. Hypothesis is that single-tasking allowed this incredible achievements, replicated five times. A jaw dropping observation, IMHO.

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Ross Clanton16:05:40

It's amazing what people are capable of doing with clear focus and prioritization..... 🙂

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:43

This is one of the most hopeful things I’ve ever heard — a real silver lining of this horrendous pandemic.

Levi Geinert21:05:05

Focus and rallying around the most important thing is an amazing approach. Its often viewed as wasteful if you have the whole team working one task/story. Woody Zuill shared with us that many industry's operate this way. Surgery, Sports, and more.... good info in his article

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Steve Spear09:05:37

Thanks very much. Great paper from many years ago, “The Focused Factory” by Wick Skinner in Harvard Business Review. Key point…in response to the decreased productivity of factories that seemingly were more capable by the vareity of things they could make, Wick offered that you needed (temporary) focus so goals are clear, roles are obvious, and coordination (e.g., managing across those relationships links) is simpler.

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:56

just a team of people working together" - often seems like a challenge to get groups that haven't traditionally worked together to start to work together - did the outcomes help drive this?

Maya Leibman16:05:47

Yes it's always hard to bring new people together @katharine.chajka. Having clear OKRs is really helpful to bond a team together

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Ross Clanton16:05:10

We've doing a few things to tackle this... First, we did reorganize many of our teams in to Ideal Product team structures, so we set the teams up for cross-functional collaboration. Beyond that, we are super focused on our culture. Growing collaboration and selflessness are critical aspects of our culture. We run various events as well (like internal hackathons) as well as an Innersource program to try and break down the silos within the Tech org.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:34

Often a crisis or a global pandemic is the requirement for the leadership to explain the business needs clearly.

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Maya Leibman16:05:41

Totally @ferrix. Nothing like a good crisis to focus everyone on the most important outcomes.

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble16:05:34

It's really interesting how a lot of companies that have been under intense pressure have embraced change. Whereas others not under so much pandemic related pressure have become a bit complacent

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:41

I think the Soviet and possibly Russian principle is to "not let a good crisis go to waste". So, the necessary change is very obvious when looking at it from an outsider's perspective

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble16:05:59

That is very apt for current times

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:13

That applies to any change. Either you embrace it as data of the real world or you refuse it. There's exactly one binary choice that is going to help you change.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)16:05:29

It creates a shared sense of urgency or panic, and hence focused motivation

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:27

“For, code deploys went from 3 weeks to 1 hour. Mindboggling, if you ask me.” — @ross.clanton410 “We don’t have to release together anymore.”

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Ross Clanton16:05:06

We've had a lot of awesome success stories in our transformation. What our .com team has been able to achieve, especially when we look at where they were starting from, is truly amazing....

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:31

@maya.leibman I’m dying to ask: looking back, of all the things that you and the team have achieved, what are you most proud of? 🙏

Maya Leibman16:05:04

Hiring @ross.clanton410!

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Maya Leibman16:05:44

That, and seeing people happier and more energized

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:44

That’s so fantastic… Dr. @ronwestrum introduced me to the Whitehall Study, who studied UK government workers, and found that the more junior the employee, the greater their chances of having heart attacks. …demonstrating that in the older ways of working, people aren’t just unhappier, but they were dying earlier, even when factors such as smoking/etc were factored out.

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)16:05:33

@ross.clanton508 that’s an amazing acceleration to lead time and deployment frequency. How did you manage the customer expectations? Did you separate deploy & release?

Ross Clanton16:05:51

I think the key thing is we can deploy when we want now. Just because we can deploy hourly we don't chose to. Most changes are much smaller now so it is much easier to deploy small changes more frequently.

Bernard Voos (FedEx)16:05:13

Thanks, Ross! I was wondering if you transformed some of the former deployment management teams/processes to a different form of customer release management?

Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)16:05:00

"where are my pom-poms" - love it!

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:01

how did you get everyone on board? Was there a need to get everyone up to a certain level with Agile knowledge/methods?

Maya Leibman16:05:01

yes @eazyd247 we definitely started with Agile training. Beyond that it was both a tops down and bottoms up effort. Some people jumped on the plane and frankly, there are others still at the gate watching the plane take off.

Ross Clanton16:05:40

Persistence, perseverance, getting key leaders/champions in place in business and IT... Communicating consistent messages frequently..

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:52

makes a lot of sense. In my organisation we've struggled with widespread re-organisation and very different understanding of what agile means.

Dave Reed (bp Product Manager)16:05:28

hence my earlier comment on MVP being a dirty word. getting the business to feel confident we're not throwing things over the fence and accepting less than perfect is an ongoing struggle

Dave Karow (Split - Sr. Progressive Delivery Advocate)16:05:02

"What is the first thing we can try to experiment with this idea" <- SO much better than trying to rally the troops by proposing to boil the ocean. Bravo.,

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David Read16:05:02

A CEO mentioning "user needs" 🙌

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:49

@dave.karow I know that one as "What is the smallest change that could lead to a significant change?"

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:03

“Who do you think has responsibility for transformation?” “Everyone. Business leaders must embrace this, and they’re spreading the word.” @maya.leibman, thank you so much for that interview of Doug Parker, CEO, American Airlines— this has been talked about so much within this community!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:05:05

Amazing (ongoing) journey @maya.leibman @ross.clanton410, thanks for sharing!

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Jason Cox - Disney16:05:09

May the Force be with you @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton508! Great inspiring talk! Love the Star Wars references, Maya. 😉

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Maya Leibman16:05:13

@jason.cox Of course you do! But who doesn't love Star Wars. Certainly everyone in my org!

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Ross Clanton16:05:00

@jason.cox you would have loved our Star Wars themed automation hackathon last week. It was called Automation Wars - Chewbacca your code..

Ross Clanton16:05:36

My favorite team name from one of the competing teams was "Sith Happens". 😹

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:16

Let’s start flying again!!!

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble16:05:20

@dave.karow It's interesting versus the perspective that Pieter Jordaan (TUI) gave on attacking the critical business processes first to drive organisation wide change

Dave Karow (Split - Sr. Progressive Delivery Advocate)16:05:30

There is a need to pick an area where impact will draw notice. Not one size fits all.

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution16:05:35

Thank you so much, @maya.leibman & @ross.clanton410! Our final presentation for today is from @eileencodes – welcome, Eileen!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:37

Thank you @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton410!!!

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Ross Clanton16:05:47

Loved sharing our story. thanks for having us....

Eileen Uchitelle - eileencodes - GitHub - Principal Software Engineer16:05:50

thanks for having me 🙂 hope you all enjoy the talk

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:43

Hello, @eileencodes!!! When I saw her talk at RailsConf, I texted the link to her video to almost 20 people, because this 7 year journey to upgrade from Rails 2 to 5 just blew my mind.

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Eduardo Hans16:05:10

@genek101 would love it if you took a picture of that bookshelf behind you 😉

Ciaran Byrne16:05:16

Thank you @maya.leibman and @ross.clanton508! 👏 great talk and some great examples of how to achieve positive change in an organisation. Loved your chat with AA's CEO!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:34

"You can find me anywhere" true.

Olivier Jacques, DXC16:05:35

I'm always disappointed when I find someone awesome to follow on twitter, just to realize I already follow her/him 😄

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:05:50

“We didn’t prioritize upgrading our framework.” (I hear this is not uncommon. 😂

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:05:25

I have to be absent from this conference due to hosting a webinar on software modernization. Surprisingly, we are going to cover this.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:16

2011: the first attempt to upgrade to Rails 3.0 begins…. just in time for Rails 3.2 to be released.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:29

“No one wants to work on a Rails 2 application.” “We have to backport security patches.” In 2014, a new band of volunteers begin work again on trying to Rails 3. 😆 (I’m not laughing because it’s funny — quite the contrary!)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:46

…and Rails 5.0 comes out. 😆 OMG, @eileencodes — it never gets old. 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:51

"That year Rails 5 came out." HAHAHA

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:11

“4000 errors on build.” (Most sane people would have stopped there.)

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:08

This! "We hereby discontinue our service and the underlying company due to silly migration issues."

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:42

“Upgrades are a feat of mental strength.” “Thankless, a lonely endeavor”

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Daniel Fraser17:05:48

We're experiencing the same thing with the .NET framework. We're still using net 4.7.2 and trying to get everything to .NET Core is going to be an adventure.

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)17:05:57

Yesssss… it was adventure for us, too.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:13

5.2 in Prod!! “The first time in 10 years that GitHub was running on current version of Rails.”

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)17:05:26

2 large release upgrades with no downtime and customer impact. Wow!

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems17:05:37

There were several painpoints mentioned in this talk. Was there a specific painpoint that was bad enough that it got the buy-in to fix it? Or was it just the generic pain was so large that you couldn't ignore it?

Eileen Uchitelle - eileencodes - GitHub - Principal Software Engineer17:05:09

I’d say it was more general. It just got to the point where it seemed like nothing got done, security was a huge problem, new engineers had no idea how this old version of Rails worked.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:59

"Eileen joins"... so repeat this process by recruiting an Eileen.

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)17:05:32

I think “Eileen joins” is the new gold standard of keynote presentation timelines. We should all have that confidence. 😊🎉

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:40

“The cost of not upgrading is immeasurable.”

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:14

For some reason "Cost of Delay" is unfathomably hard for many leaders. This is why you should use your brain enough to get familiar witth the concept.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:54

“My unpopular opinion: upgrades are not inherently risky — far outweighed by not upgrading. You have to backport all security patches (and think you’ll do it better than framework authors)”

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:34

“No one wants to work in your weird fork.” 😂😂😂

Adrienne Shulman17:05:42

real talk: engineers wont work for you if you are on old code base / or old tech

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:22

Ooooooh, gold! Thanks @eileencodes! We're hosting a software modernization webinar locally and you are validating more points than we had 😄

Adrienne Shulman17:05:55

so much talk about value today. I am in heaven. ❤️

Randy Shoup17:05:08

Wow, love the energy!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:09

(I admit that I have an app that still runs on Heroku on Ruby 2.6, using a version of RSpec that is so old, I can’t even find documentation for it anymore. So I can’t get the tests to run in a newer version. I am not proud.)

Bernard Voos (FedEx)17:05:34

@eileencodes - one of the odd situations we ran into was with Spring recently. We upgraded and the newer version had Jakarta dependencies (instead of Java). Suddenly we had a library with GPL (with classpath exception) as the license, which scared our legal folks. Have you ever run into anything like this where an upgrade changed the type of license?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:40

I am so sorry, @eileencodes — I embarrass our profession.

Eileen Uchitelle - eileencodes - GitHub - Principal Software Engineer17:05:50

It’s ok, I’ve seen worse 😉

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Adrienne Shulman17:05:49

@genek but you also humanize our profession which is more important than being perfect, amiright?!

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)17:05:37

We had an app running Java 1.2 in 2018 on a bespoke JVM supported by a mom & pop shop, @genek101

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair20:05:20

“Bespoke JVM” ?!? Holy cow, I actually didn’t know that existed! Paging @scott.prugh @mik and @rshoup! I guess maybe those existed more in the early days of Java, but still!!! Hey, Bernard — can you send me an email at <|>? I’d love to chat sometime and learn more!!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair20:05:12

@ashulman The funny thing is: I actually wanted to upgrade the Sinatra version, but I needed to write more tests. I spent hours getting the dependencies to all get Tetrised into place, only to find out it didn’t run. I wanted to write tests, but the version of RSpec was so old, my tests didn’t run anymore, and I didn’t have enough docs to understand what they actually did. 1.5 days and I finally gave up. 😂

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)20:05:25

Sooo easy to make JVMs be or act bespoke @genek, starting with loading your own version of java.lang.Object 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair20:05:31

What kind of savage would do that?! Oh. Sorry. 😂😂😂

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)20:05:44

While it has been ages since I’ve done that, it was quite a feeling of how much you can change by changing a few lines of code!

Randy Shoup21:05:45

Bespoke JVM -- impressive. All I can offer to match that is Java 1.6 + Microsoft XSLT that only runs on Windows 2008. In production. Right now. (But not for very much longer!)

Sophie Weston17:05:42

When your engineers can't Google for answers to techie problems - either because your tech is too old, or because you have some weird customisation or fork, it slows them down, adds to their cognitive load and generally just makes them sad.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:56

“Reading someone writing on HN who wonders why upgrading is taking you so long.”

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:23

@genek If it works and there is no technical need to update, it is not technical debt.

Ciaran Byrne17:05:33

Reach for the rewrite - I've had that conversation 😬! @eileencodes

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:35

“not Googleable”

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)17:05:04

a final control to trigger an upgrade decision?

Olivier Jacques, DXC17:05:48

The next Rails is... Kubernetes.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:10

Umm... No, Kubernetes is the solution looking for a problem.

David Read08:05:17

@olivier.jacques very true, the upgrade schedule is brutal

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:00

“Do anything else besides fork — it is likely the MOST EXPENSIVE decision ever made in history of GitHub.” cc @rshoup

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Randy Shoup17:05:19

I'm typing so fast!

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)17:05:19

“falling behind on security releases” 😱

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:21

(My mind reels at this statement. And I think unassailable argument.)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:38

“Listen up, technology leaders. It’s up to YOU that this work is valued as much as feature work.” (I love this advice from @eileencodes.)

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Ciaran Byrne17:05:33

I think the 'project' viewpoint of deliver and run vs an SRE view of love it an maintain it is one that many orgs are finding challenging. They still have a project viewpoint, but to maintain value they need to invest more in maintaining (including making value-based changes for the business). I find it a challenge to evidence why the maintain it meaningfully (not just break-fix) can be a better view.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:21

@eileencodes I’ve gotta share with you some data that Dr. @stephen and the team at Sonatype found in analyzing the migration behavior in Maven Central — we looked at how few people seemed to successfully upgrade from, say, Spring 2 to 3, 3 to 4, etc…. Showing how difficult it is to get hoeplessly stuck!

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David Hawes-Johnson (DevOps Enablement - BT)17:05:22

🙂 The resonates so much with me - I have a PHP ecosystem that fits this exact situation! We've just started looking an upgrade, so there are definitely some points from this talk we can take away!

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Tim Wyatt17:05:10

@ciaran.byrne I think this is one of the fundamental "digital transformation" blockers.....not all of the organisation transforms...

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David Read17:05:25

Open source contributions are great motivators for staff too

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble17:05:22

One of the best I think, with the benefit of being on the public record

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:59

(looking for the migration behavior graph…)

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)17:05:24

@eileencodes I like rails, did they finally kill the GIL?

Eileen Uchitelle - eileencodes - GitHub - Principal Software Engineer17:05:36

Ruby had a GIL but it was replaced / rewritten as YARV (yet another ruby virtual machine) in 1.9

Marcin Prączko17:05:26

I think this is what a lot of organizations should allow employees to do - especially when consuming open-source. Employees should be allowed to contribute to open source project. And all this 'patches' will benefit every customer of software. Sadly most organizations allows only 'use open source' - but not contribute back.

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Sophie Weston17:05:27

The message I'm taking from this is that upgrades are no different from other code changes - small, frequent merges - fast feedback, quickly find and fix the issues, small batch size.

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Marcin Prączko17:05:12

Upgrades are part of SDLC - and should be never tread as something else.

Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect09:05:15

One adjustment - upgrades are part of SLC - usually the part that comes somewhat after the "D" 😄

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:20

“If you don’t like your language or framework, change it.”

Randy Shoup17:05:21

Tremendous talk, so inspiring! @eileencodes

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:29

THANK YOU, @eileencodes!!!

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Mitesh (DOES Event Staff / Engineer at Gaiwan)17:05:33

Thank you! This talk was packed with great insights and presented in a super fun way ^_^ Loved it!! :raised_hands: :grin:

Anna Noak (she/her) - IT Revolution17:05:34

Want a deeper look at Rails at Github? Check out the white paper by Eileen in the new Spring edition of The DevOps Enterprise Journal. You can find the download link at the LaunchDarkly booth.

Ciaran Byrne17:05:47

Thank you @eileencodes - lots of food for thought! 👏

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David Read17:05:20

This is the best talk today. Passion, powerful reasoning, superb presentation. Thank you @eileencodes

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:29

Such an amazing achievement, Eileen!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:35

@genek You've changed the bookshelf behind you.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:17

From last year? Yes! 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:30

Exactly! I hope to see proof that this is an improvement. These are important facts.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:20

I would really hate to see that Gene's new bookshelf background would be a significant factor in the quality of DOES events. So, I am ready to accept the difference but I hope this has gone through a significant process of consideration and planning.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:29

@jeff.gallimore You've not changed your background as significantly as Gene, what gives?

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)17:05:04

with all the disruption in the world, i’m trying to keep a little stability in my world

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili17:05:23

Okay. That is a better alternative to being stripped out of any creative change in your life.

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)17:05:29

what you don’t see off screen are a few fun changes i’ve made — some LED lights and new LEGO Star Wars models. so… something 🙂

Michael Bird - Senior Architect, UPMC17:05:08

Is there a way to give feedback on the entire summit, not just the individual sessions?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:56

Yes, we have a channel for that! Umm, which channel @jeff.gallimore?

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)17:05:22

if it’s “things that could be better if…“, probably the best channel is #summit-help. maybe we can do something about it quickly 🤞

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:05:10

@eileencodes I found it! Here are some graphs on migration behavior!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:05:26

Oh, I forgot to post! Here are links to the plenary videos (and slides and transcripts) from this afternoon! • DevOps: Approaching Cruising Altitude — (@maya.leibman @ross.clanton410) • The Past, Present, and Future of Rails at GitHub — (@eileencodes) Thank you!!!

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