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Ron Westrum02:10:27

I am here, but must appear sporadically, due to other commitments. Looking forward to interacting! Ron

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Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)13:10:08

12 minutes to kick off! Looking forward to it!

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Tom Coudyzer13:10:51

Hi all, looking forward to spend the coming three days with all of you! Have a great conference everyone!

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Michael Winslow13:10:47

"Experience Reports" is the concept that changed everything for me! Almost all of my talks now are only about my actual experiences, not a concept that I learned in a book or conference.

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René Lippert13:10:57

Juhuu! It started again!🦋

Nicole Forsythe13:10:11

Morning! @genek been a fan for a long time, glad to finally have gotten to attend this conference. How often are consultants included in experience reports?

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Ganga Narayanan13:10:29

And so it begins! Bright and early! (For us in the West Coast) 🙂

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Mark Peters13:10:59

Happy to be here

Michael Winslow13:10:34

Ok, D&D references are exactly what I needed!

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)13:10:58

LOVED the interaction with speakers via slack last year!!!!

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John Awesome Rowe - Best Buy13:10:16

Looks like I'm not going to be getting any work done next week either as I catch up on the talks I miss the first time through 🙂

Dakota Wandro13:10:17

My favorite aspect of the virtual format - it is easily affordable compared to in-person conference costs + travel and expenses. So excited for the next three days!

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)13:10:59

Kudos to you and your staff, Gene - it was an amazing experience prepping and recording our session!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili13:10:59

I guess less last minute anxiety for the speakers in this format too... @lucas.rettig, what do you think?

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Sean D. Mack14:10:38

More time to enjoy the conference 😀 ...and interact with the audience!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:49

And take notes from your own speech 😉

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:26

OMG, did I say it that smartly?

Luke Rettig - Target13:10:25

I’m all good in the hood!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili13:10:51

Yeah. I think you'll do fine... there's already video evidence of thatn.

Michael Winslow13:10:03

@jeff.gallimore are you available to answer questions right now???

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili13:10:24

This conference has taught me so much about the differences between European and American room doors.

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Nicole Forsythe13:10:11

I used gather for another conference and it highlighted how my general lack of video game skill was limiting 😆

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili13:10:15

This time I'm customising my avatar to the max!!!!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:10:04

A warm welcome to our opening keynote speakers, @brett.craig and @lucas.rettig presenting How a DevOps Mindset is Influencing Target's Culture.

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Luke Rettig - Target13:10:50

Unfortunately, Brett had to step out last minute for an urgent business manner so y’all are stuck with me on the Slack thread for now.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:23

That would ruin a conference presentation in the old normal 😄

santosh dhanawade14:10:09

thanks for information 🙂

Pedro Jordan14:10:49

Gather is amaizing

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:28

Hello, all! Please welcome our first speakers from Target, with their amazing story! Thank you, @lucas.rettig and @brett.craig !

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Courtney Kissler14:10:03

YAY!! Can't wait for this talk! I heart the Target team!!

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Joe Arrowood14:10:04

Welcome Target...

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:48

Good luck @lucas.rettig!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:17

Fascinating look at where Merch Capabilities resides at Target —

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:13

@ross.clanton508 and @heather.mickman what would you say? 2013/2014

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:10

@nicole.forsythe was part of that… what would you say?

Nicole Forsythe16:10:48

@neil.fasen is my OG for the mobile app roots of agility at Target.

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Nicole Forsythe16:10:32

We mapped it out once - it was a big beautiful hand-drawn visual that hung in the Dojo in City Center for a while.

Neil Fasen17:10:50

From a product perspective, we started experimenting with operating in a product model as early as 2009 in what had been the first guest facing mobile teams. These were simple but significant changes like moving from requirements documents to backlogs, working with dedicated teams (even though at the time our engineering team was outsourced, it was still 100% dedicated to our app and mobile web work), and adopting basic Agile practices instead of waterfall plans. Our mobile team at that time had the ability to break from many of the standard practices and constraints that Target required at the time, because we were viewed as a potentially short lived experiment, assuming mobile was a fad. That did not turn out to be the case, and many of the roles we piloted on that team (Product Manager, Agile Coach...) would become the foundation for those roles would when they eventually were codified in Target Digital organization years later.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:53

“because we didn’t build software ourselves, we didn’t retain the IP” — @brett.craig

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:22

Love that phrase: “we needed to delayer the organization”. 🙂

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Michael Winslow14:10:15

I remember your talk very well in 2018 @lucas.rettig ! We had just started using ADRs at Comcast as well and I could not believe how similar your approach was! It gave us confidence that we were not crazy (or alone)! 🙂

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:43

your talk was so awesome that year as well!

Chris Kernaghan14:10:54

50 days of learning - WOW!

Geri O’Toole14:10:56

50 days of learning. 🎯

Courtney Kissler14:10:56

We made a heavy investment in learning!! 🎉

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)14:10:59

50 days of invest in yourself a year???? WOW.........

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Nicole Forsythe14:10:04

As a former manager in the Target Dojo - moved to Best Buy a couple years ago with @neil.fasen - curious how the formerly-named Dojo contributed to your success? How has the role of Dojo changed?

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:26

The Dojo has played a critical ‘hands-on’ role in helping many, many of our product and tech teams get over the hump and really jump start. In short - instrumental!

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Nicole Forsythe14:10:52

@brett.craig - curious on your perspective.

Isla Rowe14:10:07

thats amazing!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:08

@brett.craig: “At Target, every engineer has 50 days of learning; that’s not weekend day, 50 days to explore, innovate, learn, collaborate across teams” So good!

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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere14:10:27

@brett.craig / @lucas.rettig What were some ways you injected that throughout the organization? For example, specific events/activities? Injecting it into the daily work, etc? Especially if the organization was overfocused on outputs over learning?

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:30

I’d say its very frequently talked about by all leaders as learning being an expectation and each team members Goals and Objectives routines are designed to talk about learning and how each team member is investing in themselves

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)14:10:47

"Loosely coupled and highly aligned."

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Good to hear the focus “loosely coupled but highly aligned”

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Chris Kernaghan14:10:13

I am curious as to how your define IP within your organisation - especially in an industry with many standard processes and your own choices in software. Is it defined as your custom build applications throughout your organisation?

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:20

we custom build with Target Team Member Product teams anything that has the potential to differentiate us as a Retailer

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:52

there are things like HR and Accounting that we treat as more commodity and use package solutions, but for the most part we are a custom build shop and we use our Target Tech team members to do it

Chris Kernaghan14:10:25

Thanks for the clarification, it's a hard choice to make sometimes and as you said, there are gaps which need to be found and plugged

Courtney Kissler14:10:54

Your ERP isn't differentiated?? Just kidding 😉

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Tzipporah Gabriel14:10:11

What do the fifty days of learning look like? What kind of learning are people typically doing?

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John Roesler - Sr Engineer (Gap Inc)14:10:21

when I was there (previous role), it was very open in terms of what you wanted to do. Free trainings, paid trainings, youtube, pluralsight, conferences, hack projects, etc. The freedom to spend time on what you wanted to learn was there and highly encouraged

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:29

it honestly varies and each team member owns their own learning journey. these aren’t tops down driven

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)14:10:22

How do the team members preserve the time they've carved out to do this?

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Scott Kellerman (DevEx Product Owner, Vanguard)14:10:39

Are team members expected to share/bring back their learnings to their teammates? If so, what are some ways in which you've seen that accomplished?

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John Roesler - Sr Engineer (Gap Inc)14:10:00

Probably varies by team, but in both teams I was on our senior leader had a every Friday all day block on everyone's calendar.

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Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)14:10:15

do you have a way of tracking the impact of giving everyone 50 days training? i.e. what value has it added to target? new ideas/products build off the back of it?

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John Awesome Rowe - Best Buy14:10:41

I was there when it was first implemented and I recall spending 3 days just learning how this wacky new thing called Kubernetes worked. Another day we spent trying to rewrite one of our apps in Rust just to learn and see what the benefit was (pretty sure we never got it to compile because Rust is wicked hard)

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👍ptp instead of ppt

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:14

“make decisions, not decks” - sign in my office

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM14:10:41

What is the difference between "Value Chain Mapping" and "Value Stream Mapping?" Or is it really the same thing?

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:06

i’ll leave that to the experts! @mik @bryan.finster486

Luke Rettig - Target15:10:35

yeah… they are the same thing in my mind

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:28

I’d hate to comment without something beyond a label. I get bit when I assume. :D

Luke Rettig - Target15:10:01

i just assume that i’m wrong in everything i say, eventually

Luke Rettig - Target15:10:07

its good for the soul

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:58

"nah, I think we're exactly that dumb." - Leo McGarry

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)19:10:58

At a very high level, I see value chains as the full set of activities that a company of set of companies does in the market, vs a value stream which is the flow of activities that creates value. Hence the Flow Framework’s focus on value streams. @cdeardo let’s consider adding a Flow Framework FAQ on that clarifies?

Christina Biangslev19:10:50

Maybe also consider adding in Value Fracture Planes (from Team Topologies) into the definition mix? I have...a friend... that might appreciate that. 😉

Pete Nuwayser - IBM20:10:22

@mik thank you for that! @christina.biangslev now googling....

mark rendell13:10:59

In my head Value Stream mapping is a technique for examining the steps in a recurring process e.g. order fulfilment. Value Chains are something you map out at the start of Wardley Mapping (which a strategy exercise). This is and

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)15:10:22

One thing I consider to be a very critical distinction is between Value Stream Mapping, which tends to be a one-time activity, and Value Stream Management, which acknowledges that value streams are a constantly changing dynamic system.

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:35

I see VSM as an org level extension of CD. An engineering problem. We should be continuously evaluating the pipeline for ways to improve the quality gates and efficiency to reduce toil.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:42

Disciplined focus and obsession with delivering value to the end-user.

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:37

Value Stream Mapping should definitely be done at least once, but the only way you'd just need a single map is if nothing changed over time. Mapping every 3-6 months not only allows you to quickly measure your progress (along with things not captured by VSM platforms) but the primary bonus is ideal and future state mapping where you can reimagine whats possible and plan for the future.

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:31

Your Value Chain Map will change far less often than a Value Stream Map, and it covers much more than a single stream. An easy way to think about it is that your value chain is made of interconnected value streams.

Chris Kernaghan14:10:12

Brett has been on the same slide for about 10 mins - he's truly telling a story,

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:47

And here’s the Fresh Foods story which blew me away when I first heard about it earlier this year, from @lucas.rettig!

Topo Pal14:10:59

This is an awesome story!!!!

Chris Kernaghan14:10:32

You should see the supermarket shelves in the UK - not a good look 😞

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:48

Now that @lucas.rettig mentioned Food and Beverage... need to stock for happy hour...

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Michael Winslow14:10:02

FreshOps!!! 🙂

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)14:10:09

“there’s a better way.” 🙌

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems14:10:25

"Not just say there's a better way but propose a better way"

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Glenn Wilson, Author of DevSecOps14:10:45

When you look at the steady stream of full shopping trolleys rolling out of the supermarket, there must be an equal flow going in. It’s a challenge

Mark Fuller14:10:50

Get the why and get out of the way. Love it.

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Nitin Kulkarni14:10:15

how big was this team

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:07

me and 2 engineers + the Merchant teams accountable for these business units

Hoda Alshami- Speaker- DevNetOps Journey, Nationwide Insurance14:10:32

50 days of learning, how do you measure that you reached the intended outcome? Any test, certificate, assessments, is there a tailored learning path aligned with each product, tech stack ...etc

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)14:10:42

Are your teams all typically colocated? Just curious how much of a challenge not being colocated would present...

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:35

our product teams (POs, UX, Engineering, Data Science) were typically colocated - what was different with this was our users were also colocated

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Gitty Rosenfeld14:10:47

was the team only IT, or cross functional with business folks/sales too?

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:34

the business people accountable for these categories + me and 2 engineers

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:40

and a few cameo’s from folks

Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)14:10:29

did the pandemic have any impact on your ways of working?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:36

I love how @brett.craig put a stop to the “put 50+ consultants on this project,” and instead have @lucas.rettig lead a small team of engineers to go solve problems. It’s such an inspirational and educational story!

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:16

Target’s model inspired us at Walmart

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:21

And now they won't fire you for admitting 😉

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:54

I’m incredibly proud of what we accomplished with a scrappy team. 😄

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Brian W. Spolarich - Cal Poly14:10:00

This takes confidence from leaders and trust in your own internal expertise. I'm thinking of Brene brown's work on brave leadership.

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Joe Arrowood14:10:00

Pull out the shelf-stretcher

Topo Pal14:10:46

And I thought WM and Target are comp?

Courtney Kissler14:10:32


Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:14

Remind me to tell you the story of talking to @ross.clanton508 the first time after his 2015 talk.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:48

Soooo much in common... including not using AWS?

Andy Nortrup - Director of PM at Tanium14:10:49

I worked in a grocery store as a kid and was always amazed when my managers knew exactly how many facings most products in the store had on the shelf (it was a really small store)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:20

“we increased gross margin by 32%” (holy cow. !!!)

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:46

Does that count as business outcome, or what? 🤯

Jon Tarrant14:10:11

Yes, love the business metric vs. some IT-oriented proxy metric

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)14:10:41

So...... what exactly was changed to produce these results?

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:31

lots of things, but TL:DR is that we currated our assortment to the most important items and we got rid of the average things

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Nitin Kulkarni14:10:22

Average things ? Things that were sold less??

Javier Magaña - Walmart14:10:52

It is things that do not have as much impact. Focus on what brings the most value short term

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Andy Nortrup - Director of PM at Tanium14:10:30

Produce, is a different department 😆

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:46

Some of the things I picked up: • changing order lot sizes • understanding what the sales rates were • segmenting stores better to drive product selection • less returns to suppliers How did I do, @lucas.rettig?

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:49

less choice, curated assortment to what matters most for our guests - led to less shrink

Eric Mosher, NSA14:10:54

Brett's shirt feels James T. Kirk 🚀 - and I mean this is as the utmost compliment! 😃

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:08

this was Brett dressing up 🙂

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:16

love that about him

Joe Arrowood14:10:22

I was thinking the same thing!

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Chris Kernaghan14:10:57

I was thinking the same thing, but unsure how to say it 🙂

Garrin Ball - DevOps Leader - DDMI14:10:59

i’m glad somebody said it!

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Joe Arrowood14:10:44

James R. Kirk (on the tombstone)

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:44

Brett is one of the most authentic leader i’ve ever worked for. He brings his full self everyday

Joe Arrowood14:10:36

Only the truest geeks will get that tombstone statement...

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)14:10:38

so... needed to shift to be more focused on what your customers wanted?


awesome story @lucas.rettig

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Matt K. Parker he/him (Speaker/Author)14:10:49

Is the feed down or just me?

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Garrin Ball - DevOps Leader - DDMI14:10:16

it buffered once for me, but a quick refresh it was back on track

Ryan Taylor - Senior Geospatial Developer, GISinc14:10:17

The stream is stalling periodically for me

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Paul Sweet - Autodesk14:10:35

Yep I had to reload the page

Christopher Langner, Principal PO, Prime Therapeutics14:10:41

it stalled for me as well. I had to close the browser and go back in


buffered a moment, but was back on track

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:07

FYI: these are Vimeo streams. Should be pretty solid, resilient…. I had to refresh once.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:57

Fascinated on Merchants vs. Operations divide (with tech as a complete afterthought on sidelines)— so familiar to Dev vs. Ops. From @lucas.rettig

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:33

What memories — pictures from circa March 2020, could be any retailer in middle of COVID pandemic.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:49

Especially pants. Shirts were flying off the racks at Walmart. Not pants for some reason.

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Rob Fraley14:10:07

This is great.. a long standing COVID joke, backed up by a bit of reality in retail sales. :)

Chris Kernaghan14:10:08

@genek - I'm having an opposite challenge with Dev/engineering being super aggressive

Courtney Kissler14:10:16

yeah - super curious to hear more

Chris Kernaghan14:10:59

Dev/Engineering trying to own everything and run everything. They had become blockers on several fronts. Their leadership effectively became bullies

Courtney Kissler14:10:28

Wow - that's unfortunate. Any focus on outcomes?

Courtney Kissler14:10:42

Especially shared outcomes?

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:49

So, moving from “we are also the business” to “we are the only business”?

Chris Kernaghan14:10:56

they did not value the input from their customers in Infrastructure and SAP. Took minimal inputs, went with an 'Agile' Fail fast approach - but arrogantly

Chris Kernaghan14:10:18

Outcome was technology which was not useful because it was over-engineered

Jim Moverley14:10:30

was going to say.. thats arrogantops...

Jim Moverley14:10:40

shame to hear 😕

Chris Kernaghan14:10:52

Yep, some super smart folks which got burnt

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:09

I’ve frequently reminded peers, “fall in love with the business problem, not the technical problem.” This sounds like they fell in love with the wrong problem.

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Chris Kernaghan14:10:40

I'm now faced trying to rebuild an inclusive culture

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:12

“What are our business goals?”

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Courtney Kissler14:10:27

that's a tough situation - hopefully you can get people aligned on the business problem and some shared outcomes

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:01

People are hard, right @nasello.scott?

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Chris Kernaghan14:10:27

It's working, just need to build trust with the remaining team - which is harder remotely, but learning from smart people like the ones here

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:02

I’d love to chat more about this at the bar later.

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Chris Kernaghan14:10:32

Of course - ping me when you're free. I'm in the UK but happy to stay up late.

Chris Kernaghan14:10:39

I suspect I will actually be in the bar 😄

Dipesh Bhatia14:10:23

Can you talk a little more on P&T doing deliveries, and how did you change that ? @lucas.rettig

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:27

basically Product and Tech were being ’handed” specific timelines and scope to execute

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:39

some of these stories are how we are chipping away

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As a fellow merchant, I can acknowledge... it is real.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:34

This is one of the neatest parts of the story — @lucas.rettig describes how the ways of working pioneered in FreshOps put them on the vanguard of the routines needed to respond quickly to COVID. Did I get that right?


the DAM

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:53

Huge Kudos to the Business Owners embracing these practices… we had some awesome leaders!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:59

WAM and WOM vs. DAM Weekly Action Meeting & Weekly Operations Meetings ===> Daily Action Meeting

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Eric Hardisty, Technical Director - USG14:10:26

Bacronym alert. :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Asim Verma14:10:30

How did you manage the 50 day learning program for the employees and measure the outcome?

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:21

i’d say its less formal… continually learning is an expectation so leaders are deliberate in asking and goal setting around what the team member wants to learn about and we allocate time and budget to make it happen

Asim Verma14:10:10

Sounds good.. thanks for your reply

Nitin Kulkarni14:10:54

WAM, WOM, DAM : Sounds from a action movie 🙂

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Produced by @genek

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:41

hahahaha. No, by @lucas.rettig!

Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)14:10:01

do you think you would have ever got to this way of working if it wasn't for Covid?

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:03

great question… there were signs and progress, like with FreshOps, but this was the ultimate accelerator

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Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)14:10:20

never waste a good crisis, right?

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Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 114:10:52

“Stand-up at scale” - I’m real curious how you all managed to keep this organized to stay valuable. At scale I've seen these kinds of meetings creep away from the original intent.

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Yeah, scaling effectively is tricky

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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)14:10:13

I like that you speak of guests rather than customers. Has this always been this way or did it involve a cultural shift lately or some time ago?

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:53

thats been a core of Target for a long time!

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Christian Kullmann, Eurowings Digital, Automation Professional (He/Him)14:10:59

Love it. It sadly has been some time since i made it to a Target.

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:56

you can change that today?!?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:27

Incidentally, the WAM/WOM => DAM sounds so similar to me to the Team of Teams story — the daily enterprise scale daily action meeting. @lucas.rettig You’ll hear Admiral John Richardson and me talk about your amazing story this afternoon.

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Jonathan Hart14:10:11

Curious to understand how the org was manifest at the ground level - at a squad level, how was work getting done? Were the category managers also the product managers? where does product sit? is that part of tech?

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:48

Product rolls into the Business Units, Tech rolls into the CIO

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:14

“Care, Grow, Win” “Choose Progress Over Perfection” ❤️

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:15

"progress over perfection"

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Geri O’Toole14:10:19

connectivity. togetherness.

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Rajat Sud (DevOps Evangelist - SBPASC, an affiliate of CareFirst) (Speaker)14:10:42

What kinds of feedback loops fed this journey? Was it the engineers? customers? leadership?...all?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:46

It’s astonishing to me that this is the culture for not technology, but all of Target — can you confirm, @lucas.rettig?

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:10

yes… this is our Enterprise culture framework

Haendel Dorfeuille14:10:55

“Choose progress over perfection”

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Topo Pal14:10:25

Nice to hear from Target again

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:46

Lin Manuel Miranda (Hamilton, etc.): “Remembering why we’re on the journey fortifies the journey itself.”

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Glenn Wilson, Author of DevSecOps14:10:59

Echoes of Deming’s constancy of purpose

Kimberley Wilson14:10:19

Finally, a genuine reason to use Hamilton screenshots in a slide deck.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:51

Is anyone else seeing echos of the early James T Kirk, or is it just me?

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Eric Mosher, NSA14:10:11

Haha yes, as mentioned above

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:48

Command colors, and is that a unicorn? (I must have missed something above)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:44

SVP Digital: P&L responsibility for all digital channels, 20% of all revenue.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:02

..and it’s one of the primary of Target growth areas…

Topo Pal14:10:49

Target is hiring too!

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:26

there are some remote roles?!?

Chris Kernaghan14:10:51

How about SAP DevOps people 😄

Hoda Alshami- Speaker- DevNetOps Journey, Nationwide Insurance14:10:52

Progress over perfection is a game changer

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Luke Rettig - Target14:10:56

as promised: There is a networking event today at 12:20pm Central time during the break. We have a host of Tech leaders across Target and a portal with all of our open positions. I will post the Zoom link and details into both the #hiring channel and the #target-networking channel leading into the break. Please go out and join the #target-networking channel and start a conversation with some Target folks!

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Chris Gallivan (Tasktop-Planview)15:10:13

Rapid Scale doesn't impress me much. What does impress me is that Target continues to play the long game in the transformation space. Great work as always.

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Michael Winslow14:10:59

DAM this is a good start!

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Chris Kernaghan14:10:10

@michael_winslow - I KNOW 🙂

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Great start of #DOES21 US @genek @lucas.rettig @brett.craig

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:15

Thank you @lucas.rettig and @brett.craig!!

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Pedro Jordan14:10:21

Thank you very much !

Jennifer Collings14:10:24

Great start for sure!

Amri Abuseman - Flatiron Health, Director of Quality Engineering14:10:26

👏 great talk from the Target 🎯 team!

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Ganga Narayanan14:10:27

Thank you! Amazing start to the conference! DAM, WAM, BAM to care, grow, win.. progress over perfection!

Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:10:29

We now welcome @marc.brouillard and @denis.skinner presenting: Journey to Digitopia: The Government of Canada's Quest to Modernize Services

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Denis Skinner14:10:58

Glad to be here! First time speakers to this awesome event.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:31

Thanks you Target!! loved the firehose if information

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:31

Oooooh, the stories I'm gonna get from DOES again.

👍 1

thank you target team

👍 1
Joe Arrowood14:10:38

Thank you Gentlemen

Klaudia Breslavets - Vanguard14:10:44

Great story. Thanks Target! 🎯

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER14:10:48

always love hearing updates from Target

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Bob Dunn14:10:55

Thank you @lucas.rettig @brett.craig

Ernie Davis - American Airlines14:10:59

"Person to Person rather than PowerPoint to PowerPoint"... well stated

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Brad Hudson14:10:03

Thanks Target group!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:05

Please welcome the amazing team of the Government of Canada: @denis.skinner and @2marcboudreau!!! (20K tech workers, nearly 300K civil servants!)

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Brandon Linton (CarMax)14:10:16

@brett.craig loved how your teams oriented around the value chain and business capabilities! How did your teams organize around that chain? What parts were they responsible for?

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:33

Our org structure wasnt changed per say. We made sure our entire MerchCapabilities org understood the Value Chain and where they had influence in it, if that makes sense

Brandon Linton (CarMax)14:10:40

Thanks Luke. Even if it didn't change, how did you "locate" teams in that chain? Did they own a value stage or a set of business capabilities tied to them?

Brandon Linton (CarMax)14:10:59

Curious too if they owned services and experiences or just one or the other

Brandon Linton (CarMax)14:10:47

I love the empowerment of team ownership while still being aligned to outcomes, and super interested in how you organized and made decisions around that chain

Luke Rettig - Target14:10:42

Teams do own ‘all of their users’ meaning they own the services and experiences. Locating teams is honestly just a conversation between Product and Tech leaders (mainly Product Managers and Tech Leads)

Brandon Linton (CarMax)14:10:24

Thanks for the additional context! So just to make sure I'm tracking - teams own and evolve both APIs and experiences, and they may evolve different parts of the value chain through conversation with leaders (setting objectives)?

Brandon Linton (CarMax)15:10:37

Thanks! One last question if that's ok - do the tech assets (sites, services, etc.) that "realize" those capabilities / value stages change hands as objectives and focus areas change?

Dave Owings14:10:20

Thanks Luke and Brett

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Javier Magaña - Walmart14:10:52

Thanks for the amazing Presentation Luke and Brett. 🎯

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Marc Brouillard14:10:09

@genek I noticed you used @2marcboudreau, it should be @marc.brouillard 🙂

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:40

Oops, sorry, @marc.brouillard!!! Autocomplete of “Marc B” wasn’t sufficient! 😆

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Denis Skinner14:10:22

Ok, here we go!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:40

This is mindblowing. Can't wait... How often does Canada deploy? What's the CFR? 😉

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Jason Walker14:10:49

👋 great story, @lucas.rettig and @brett.craig!

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Courtney Kissler14:10:07

I was talking about you with @rshoup - sharing the Dojo story and how amazing it was to watch you in action!

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John Awesome Rowe - Best Buy14:10:26

Wow, we have a @desktophero in the house!

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Jason Walker14:10:59

Hey y'all!

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Randy Shoup15:10:53

I got scheduled for an exec leadership course all week as well, so I'll have to watch all the videos in the evening. Can't wait for this one, though :-).

Luke Rettig - Target15:10:17

@rshoup - i’m always game for a personalized Slack thread discussion when you do!

Gray O'Byrne14:10:58

Woot, go @denis.skinner377 & @marc.brouillard

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:04

“We’re dealing with rules that are over 150 years old… made during the age of weaving looms.” So good. @marc.brouillard

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Marc Brouillard14:10:10

And some of our systems are over 60 years old!

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Marc Brouillard14:10:10

And some of our systems are over 60 years old!

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How do you over the challenges when dealing with legacy Vs latest systems? @marc.brouillard

Chris Kernaghan14:10:38

@marc.brouillard wow, they can claim their own pension

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:51

“Enable every users to access every service they need, any time, from any device. Make it easy for Canadians to find and use government services; no more paper forms and faxes; no more hard to find services; no more hold times; no more complicated logins”. (What a vision!!) — @marc.brouillard

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Marc Brouillard14:10:18

@chris.kernaghan yes!

Ganga Narayanan14:10:25

Canada represent! Go Canada! 😃 :flag-ca:

Topo Pal14:10:30

12 years ago, who would have thought Governments would be talking about DevOps!

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👍 2

very true !!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:11

You'd expect governments to be a lot more behind... thankfully no.

Haendel Dorfeuille14:10:55

I wonder how strong resistance to change is in the gorvernment? How do you overcome it? @denis.skinner377

Haendel Dorfeuille14:10:55

I wonder how strong resistance to change is in the gorvernment? How do you overcome it? @denis.skinner377


yes, would love to hear the response on this @marc.brouillard

Denis Skinner14:10:26

It's an interesting challenge. We have senior officials saying, why aren't my teams innovating? And we have grassroots teams saying, why is management in the way?

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Sounds like a great case study @denis.skinner377

Denis Skinner14:10:53

We've created an award system so we can highlight those are demonstrating alignment to our vision.

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Denis Skinner14:10:30

And it gets the leadership across departments (ministries) to have an opportunity to see what's bubbling up

Denis Skinner14:10:34

and share across

👍 1

Thanks for sharing

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER14:10:57

@emoshmosh - doesn't this sound awesome??

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:59

What metric do you use in place of profit?

Dave Burnison14:10:40

User engagement? Mean Time to fulfill requests?

Jason Walker14:10:17

Great to hear a defined North Star

Brian Smith14:10:21

This is so exciting to see Government talking about implementing DevOps.

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Marc Brouillard14:10:34

@topo.pal we still have a long way to go! I've found that the first step is the biggest, and once ppl see the benefits, it starts to build momentum

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:35

@marc.brouillard how are you balancing delivery with security policies?

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:45

It's been very interesting seeing the use of DevOps principles in military and government

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:49

What an audacious and breathtaking North Star — this is such a beautiful and mind-expanding presentation, @marc.brouillard and @denis.skinner.

Chris Kernaghan14:10:53

@topo.pal - it's interesting how many of these journeys relay on strong visionary leaders, I long for the day when these things just need good leaders because folks actually get it

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:46

Yes, how do we make them less of a constraint?

Chris Kernaghan14:10:21

It goes all the way back to young people and mentoring them

Brian Smith14:10:13

How are you eliminating complicated logins?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:10:01

Hmm... Phoenix Projects can only succeed?

Denis Skinner14:10:16

Lesson 1 - don't name your project, Phoenix. 😅

🙂 1
Jason Walker14:10:52

Government has "users" in a digital space?

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER14:10:36

we talk about customers/users all the time. still working on more inclusive language to get away from the us vs them mentality

👍 1
Denis Skinner14:10:12

Absolutely. Users: citizens, permanent residents, visitors, internal employees who use our systems, etc

Jason Walker14:10:14

Cool. Thanks. I guess the optionality is more ambiguous in the government context - users of a system in software typically have a choice in using that system or something else (generally speaking). Some recent feedback I gave to an engineer who was starting to use customer for communications: I'm a proponent that using customer instead of user implies more trust and value in the relationship.

Marc Brouillard14:10:29

@bryan.finster486 We're trying to do that with DevSecOps, critical that we incorporate Security, Privacy, Accessibility and Official Languages by design from the start, and on an ongoing basis...

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:10:05

Love to compare notes on this and see how Platform 1 compares.

Marc Brouillard14:10:27

@brian.m.smith something called sing-in Canada - Coming soon! (if interested, look up the Pan Canadian Trust Framework)

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:48

striving toward a frictionless experience 🙂

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him14:10:57

11 stars, man I would want to move Canada for that... working on renewing my kids passport now and it is a pain!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:07

“What would an 11 star government service look like: imagine you’re booking travel on a site — what if that site could tell you your passport would expire, and all the relevant government agencies would contact you to help renew it.” — @marc.brouillard OMG. @mvk842 and I had this problem years ago, which led to forms, trips to post office, etc. What a beautiful vision!

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems14:10:51

Last year, someone recommended A Civic Technologists Practice Guide by Cyd Harrell and it has some similar learnings from the books and articles she referenced.

🔖 3
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:04

@marc.brouillard telling beautiful story of a military veteran being notified of a pension, which he was able to claim, which made a meaningful difference to his life. 🙏

❤️ 6
Marc Brouillard14:10:45

@ferrix Lesson #1: Never name a project Phoenix! 🙂


@genek - How did you convince government of canada to speak in this summit? 🙂

Denis Skinner14:10:01

We're huge fans of IT Rev, particularly, @genek.

❤️ 2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:16

It started with an interaction with @denis.skinner on Twitter, and I got to learn about their amazing work — I was so blown away that I told him and @marc.brouillard how honored I’d be if they could share their story. And I was so delighted and honored that they said yes!

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🎉 2

wow...Thank you, this is just awesome, Loving it !!

Britt Hurley14:10:34

There's quite a few of us here from the GC 🙂

❤️ 5

wow...I didn't knew

Joe Arrowood14:10:17

Which came first? The Phoenix or the Fire?

😂 2
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Marc Brouillard14:10:30

@ramu_vemula we know we still have a lot of work to do to move to a digital culture, this is a great forum to exchange ideas!


Awesome !! Hearing DevOps from Government and participating in summit tells how passionate you are. Thank you !!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:49

@marc.brouillard: “from DevOps Enterprise Summit: almost cliche now: what used to take months or years could now take weeks.” 😆

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop-Planview)14:10:52

Watching Handmaids Tale has given me a new respect for Canada. Go Canada

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:05

Sounds like the crisis was an enabler for rapid digital transformation

Peter Fassbinder14:10:53

Indeed, not only in the Canadian Gov but in all enterprises

Peter Fassbinder14:10:09

Here's tthe well known joke: who was the key enabler of your digital tranformation: CEO, CTO, CDO, Covid, ... you know the answer

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)14:10:15

We should get the IRS to attend this conference lol

❤️ 6
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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:19

Another amazing story of how organizations mobilized in the face of the COVID pandemic.

✔️ 2
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Amy Cheng - TELUS14:10:31

Where is this Public Playbook? would love to see it @marc.brouillard

Denis Skinner14:10:19

You'll see aligned and misaligned behaviours. And check out the references... our favs.

James Holden14:10:45

Hopefully organizations won't need a crisis to innovate rapidly in the future

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🎉 1
Eric Mosher, NSA14:10:27

Fair, but a crisis has a way of uniting people to a common goal which is hard to replicate in the absence of a crisis.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:25

Reminds me of UK HMRC story: “We went from one of most despised government agencies to the most loved. 🙂 Kudos to Canada team for pulling this off — in the US, this was handled by the banking system.

Britt Hurley14:10:34

If you wanna take a look at one Canadian initiative, take a look at our Digital Dojo, modeled on Devops Dojos but adapted for the government of Canada: We are a very small crew of folks hoping to help other public servants with their learning journey 🙂 A few of us are hanging out in this chat if you feel like chatting!

❤️ 8
🎉 1
Britt Hurley14:10:08



Is there channel in slack too?

Britt Hurley14:10:58

We have a partnership slack workspace we are leveraging - GCDevOpsLeague (


Is it open to join, any restrictions?

Stephanie DeGuire14:10:56

Yay! Thanks for sharing @brittany.hurley ! Feel free to message me about the dojo if you have questions 🙂 I'm the dojo manager.

👏 2
Chris Kernaghan14:10:24

@genek - I have to say their online experience is fabulous, although at the cost of their telephony experience. That has degraded horribly, still lovely people - once you get to them

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:33

Do you think transformation at this scale and pace would have been possible without the push from the pandemic @marc.brouillard... is there a way to keep the momentum without it?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:34

They forked the UK GDS notifications system, to accommodate multilingual issues, etc. Running in Kubernetes, instead of Cloud Foundry.

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❤️ 1
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Jason Walker14:10:36

"so we forked it ... " :thumbsup:

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Denis Skinner14:10:37

Similar to 18F in the US or GDS in the UK.


is there slack channel for devops at canada government?

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems14:10:49

Did you say you changed onboarding practices after Covid? What are things you changed that made some improvements?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:53

“Notify is a resounding success; used by 150 services, main source of reliable information to Canadians about pandemic, including benefits.” — @denis.skinner 🙏

Dipesh Bhatia14:10:15

Amazing !! Is this app also used by other countries @denis.skinner

Peter Fassbinder14:10:21

Is you DigiTOPIA already a DigiREALITY or still going?

👆 1
Denis Skinner14:10:50

Ongoing. We're not done yet. And really, until we are fully a learning organization, impossible to be done...

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Britt Hurley15:10:58

CDS, which is the primary focus of discussion, is a unicorn that is able to work outside of some of the rules placed on the rest of the GC - so theres a lot of work to go to replicate that work throughout the rest of government. -Thoughts from inside a Dept 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:10:46

“demos over memos”

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Michael Winslow15:10:09

I am so surprised this is the first time I've heard this! 😄

Ashish Dubey, Software Engineer (CD), Grofers15:10:24

Remembering something close from the Agile Manifesto but this just packs lot more punch 😄

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)14:10:51

"demos over memos" -- yes!

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Joe Arrowood15:10:15

Way to steal his thunder Gene 🙂

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)15:10:23

Assuming @genek has reviewed these previously, he could already have a GeneBot preloaded with the quotes he likes to deliver in a timely way, automatically....

Joe Arrowood15:10:42

Just showing that I am paying attention 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:00

There is lots of truth to this…. So many nuggets of wisdom that I’m so excited that people will get to hear!

Haendel Dorfeuille15:10:20

@denis.skinner377 these are not native apps?

Haendel Dorfeuille15:10:01

How do you navigate Apple's review process for your deployments?

Mark Peters15:10:36

"Demos over memos" - great

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:00

“ArriveCAN: boasts 4.6 stars on App Store: 75K reviews…. Not bad for a government app, I might say!” 😆 — @denis.skinner

😆 4
🎉 3
👍 1

Much higher than other tech apps out there...way to go @denis.skinner377 @marc.brouillard

Morgan Frese, LaunchDarkly15:10:14

It's is extremely user friendly which was surprising!

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)15:10:02

as long as they aren't padded rooms...

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:28

Would any government be willing to go that far? 😄

Antonia Beasley15:10:33

How do you keep progressing once the urgency has worn off?

☝️ 2
Denis Skinner15:10:46

It's part of going discussions at the most senior levels (heads of ministries).


they have to put acronyms on @marc.brouillard

😂 1
Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER15:10:22

OMG we do have to put acronyms on everything

😄 11
Joe Arrowood15:10:49

We need our TLA's

Christopher Rueber15:10:13

:thumbsup: It’s definitely required. 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:15

The Pointless Official Acronyms or the POAs

Dwayne Moore15:10:34

This has been a challenge as we move back to day-to-day, the legacy mindset is quickly returning

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Ben Larabie15:10:47

@marc.brouillard I work w/ Dwayne in ESDC trying to push DevOps. It would be super helpful to us if we could circulate this video or a similar message to the whole of ESDC...

💯 1
Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:44

“Traditional methods” == Artisanal Development. Good for soap at a craft fair. Not for product development.

❤️ 1
👍 1
Denis Skinner15:10:17

We live in acronyms... this is the de-acronym-ed version... lol

😄 1
Amy Cheng - TELUS15:10:21

"Culture of Continuous Learning" FTW

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:52

I’m always in awe that the Team of Teams book seems so familiar and is so full of useful patterns for this community — was so great to have @david627 and @jessica.reif talk twice last year. The Lynchpin Liaison Officer seems like an important pattern, as noted by @marc.brouillard. What a neat example of it, sending them “deep into the bureaucracy!”

Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect15:10:45

@marc.brouillard what is the boots on the ground version of the person for a gov't LNO?

Pedro Jordan15:10:34

a transformation that every government in the world should have !


servant leadership !!

❤️ 1
Geri O’Toole15:10:57

.."winning people's hearts and mind.." ❤️

❤️ 3
Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:07

Will this create endless lines of DevOps immigrants at the borders of Canada?

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😃 1

@denis.skinner377 @marc.brouillard for comment

Joe Arrowood15:10:49

I was thinking along that very line.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)15:10:05

lines of refugees from traditional orgs...

Joe Arrowood15:10:52

Everyone wants to live in a country where the government is actually trying.

❤️ 1
Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)11:10:29

…unless they’re trying to coerce, imprison, re-educate, etc. 😂

Denis Skinner15:10:23

Digitopia was one of my career highlight thought experiments

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Denis Skinner15:10:18

Basically, start with a blue ocean/blank slate mindset and then look at ways to get there. This is the journey.

Michael Winslow15:10:40

ACCELERATE! I bought 250 copies to give out right before the pandemic! There is still about 75 sitting at my desk! Love the book!

❤️ 5
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Jordi Mon Companys15:10:21

Happy to purchase a copy from you if it’s convenient for you.

Mark Peters15:10:45

My favorite part to display is that change control boards are an anti-pattern

💯 1
Michael Winslow15:10:08

Thanks Jordi ... I can't get to them!!! 🙂 At least not until 2022. I should have said they are "stuck" at my desk in the office!

Dipesh Bhatia15:10:40

Is the US Government listening 🙂 to this talk ..

❤️ 3
Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER15:10:52

some of us are 😉

😂 2
❤️ 4
Michael Winslow15:10:00

the US government listens to all talks, this talk is currently in a Kafka queue waiting to be ingested!

🙂 1
Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect15:10:25

18F & USDS have some great stories, but too few on balance

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:44

"I seek asylum from ITIL"

😆 5
😂 2
😄 1

Asylum for SRE/DevOps etc., etc., lol

Britt Hurley15:10:59

CDS, which is the primary focus of discussion, is a unicorn area of the Government of Canada that is able to work outside of some of the rules placed on the rest of the GC - so there's a lot of work to go to replicate that work throughout the rest of government. -Thoughts from inside a Dept 🙂 ❤️

❤️ 5
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Denis Skinner15:10:35

We're closer to the beginning than the end when we look across all gov organizations.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:03

They say "Foreign policy is the best kind of domestic policy." So, I guess sharing the success stories externally will initiate change internally... even in governments 😄

Britt Hurley15:10:48

100% - we're big supporters of CDS creating pathways, and evolving their role to advocating for change within Depts. The more we talk, the more leverage and content we have to reference in depts to help fight our causes

👍 1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]15:10:03

CDS is generating social proof within GC

👆 1
Dwayne Moore15:10:41

We love the work being done in CDS but have run into challenges when trying to replicate this work across larger departments

💯 1
❤️ 1
Mark Peters15:10:03

"rigorous challenges that require hacking away at" Did he just ask hackers to go after the Canadian government? Or just unfortunate phrasing

🪓 1
Ben Larabie15:10:37

Please don't, signed Canadian Government SRE 😛

Dwayne Moore15:10:05

The will is there...we just need the autonomy and authority to do what is right

Amy Cheng - TELUS15:10:40

What's your thoughts on innovative whitespace time? @denis.skinner377 @marc.brouillard

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Denis Skinner15:10:50

That was the idea with the Digitopia work. More broadly, everyone needs learning time. 20% time is the dream.

Denis Skinner15:10:05

Everyone needs time to learn. Learning needs to be part of all work.

Amy Cheng - TELUS15:10:51

Thanks! Curious on how to help enable and enforce it 🙂

Amy Cheng - TELUS15:10:16

How do you enable and ensure this goal of 20% time?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:02

“only possible when goals are clear and focused.” — @marc.brouillard Like @lucas.rettig talked about: “our goal was simple: improve gross margins, without sacrificing sales. then they said, go make it happen.”

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER15:10:26

"what are we willing to give up?"

🎉 2
Geri O’Toole15:10:28

"command and control governance kills agility."

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Gray O'Byrne15:10:43

Yes, funding models are so clutch

Gray O'Byrne15:10:17

So hard to move away from the traditional when money comes in with so many constraints

Topo Pal15:10:55

Other conferences - after 2 plenary talks - I need more coffee. This conference - after 2 plenary talks - whats the next talk going to be?? wow

😀 1
❤️ 11

very true !! The talks itself is more than caffeine @genek

👍 1
Joshua Barton15:10:37

True! But since it's a virtual conference, I can also take it with me to get more coffee :)

❤️ 1
Luke Rettig - Target15:10:36

Full ownership, multi-disciplined teams

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Dwayne Moore15:10:10

@marc.brouillard and @denis.skinner377 one idea we had was to identify key resources internal to each department who can be given the trust and autonomy to innovate. There are too many blockers and barriers faced daily by the more innovative people and we need to empower them by giving them the freedom to succeed.

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Britt Hurley15:10:54

Trusted partners in each dept would go along way, especially with security challenges

Denis Skinner15:10:58

Everyone needs a little CDS.

❤️ 2
Stephanie DeGuire15:10:02

Services that support IT teams like procurement, Human Resources need to mature at the same time as us if we are to succeed. Simple things like being enabled to experiment with tooling is a challenge. Trying to buy a 4 month subscription to a new tool is so complex and requires so much paperwork and gates people give up.

Steve Farley - VP Infrastructure Operations, Nationwide Insurance15:10:39

Full Stack Build It/Run it accountability

🎉 1
🙏 1

Design it, build it, run it, improve it 😄

Haendel Dorfeuille15:10:41

“What are we willing to give up to change the way we work?”

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:49

Thank you so much for that beautiful and inspiring presentation, @denis.skinner377 and @marc.brouillard!! ❤️

❤️ 1
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Denis Skinner15:10:31

Such an honor!!!

Joe Arrowood15:10:51

Great job to our Northern Brothers!

❤️ 1
Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:10:01

Next up, please welcome @christina_yakomin and @rdaitzman from Vanguard who will present on Iterative Enterprise SRE Transformation.

Michael Winslow15:10:41

I've really been excited for this one!

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Dipesh Bhatia15:10:14

Amazing !!! Good work Canada Govt.


Thank you @marc.brouillard @denis.skinner377 and everyone whose here from government of canada

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Joe Arrowood15:10:15

All Techies are family...

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:31

Up next from Vanguard: Please welcome @christina_yakomin and @rdaitzman

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)15:10:33

Awesome to see DevOps principles liberating such energy and talent in Canada

❤️ 1
Sean Merron - Engineering Manager - CarMax15:10:38

❤️ Vanguard. Thank you for low-cost high-performing index funds 🙂

❤️ 3
♥️ 1
Istvan Bathazi15:10:47

great presentation @marc.brouillard @denis.skinner377 thank you!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:02

$8 trillion Assets Under Management, 7K developers.

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Michael Winslow15:10:39

hahaha! Now I know why you wanted my developer count!!!

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:44

great point at the end when thinking about the Tech Debt that would left when next generation replaces me... I would be leaving items behind that could stop innovation opportunity. never thought of it that way... only thought how it impacts me now...

Topo Pal15:10:56

Already a fan of this talk - Iterative is the magic word

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Britt Hurley15:10:59

Great job representing us @denis.skinner377 and @marc.brouillard !

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Skylar Rudolph15:10:40

Former Vanguard employee here! Awesome group!

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Craig Cook - IBM15:10:10

YAY! Coaching!

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Sean Merron - Engineering Manager - CarMax15:10:26

Go Eagles!!! (Hard to say this year lol)

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems15:10:00

I thought you were cheering for the zoo!

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)15:10:08

so much to learn... thanks for expanding the context @genek

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:45

“Observability… there’s wasn’t any… no positive affirmation that systems were running correctly. we only knew when alerts fire [when things went wrong]” “They were centrally owned — you had to open up a ticket.” So good, @christina_yakomin!!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:00

(@steve773 and I reference this in our talk tomorow. 🙂

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René Lippert15:10:02

@christina_yakomin, @rdaitzman We want to start with a SRE team featuring a couple of value streams. Do you have some good ideas on who do I get a grip on how many people we might need in our SRE team?

Christina Yakomin15:10:06

I describe our SRE operating model later in the talk, but it really depends on how the organization is structured and how large it is. In general, I'd recommend keeping that SRE activity as close to the product teams as possible, embedded if you can. but you may need some centralization as a scalability play and to facilitate knowledge sharing and communication of standards.

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Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:17

I’d also add it depends on what base/culture you’re starting from. Even with the scenario @christina_yakomin is describing, I was our sole central SRE for several months a few years ago as we got started!

René Lippert15:10:07

Are you up for a short direct call? That would be easier to describe it in length.

Christina Yakomin15:10:07

Connect with us on LinkedIn! We include our contact info on the last slide, and I'd be happy to co-ordinate some post-conference conversations on these topics.

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Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:05

Yeah, each team should on the Monitoring and alerts, not just for their on consumption, but to help other teams know your status .... we rolled out Datadog to solve that issue...

Steve Farley - VP Infrastructure Operations, Nationwide Insurance15:10:47

Loving the stories of at SCALE challenges for large organizations The Cloud journey and at scale DevOps principles need some structure as well. We started an SRE team as well as a result to engage in a Engineering Resiliency focus.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:40

Excited for you amazing talk, also about massive scale, on Day 3!!

Steve Farley - VP Infrastructure Operations, Nationwide Insurance20:10:01

Thanks Gene and the conference seems to be going very well so congrats!!!

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER15:10:52

automation of change records - Goals

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:19

I loved going from 3 days to sub-second for a change control at WM. 😄

Michael Winslow15:10:56

👀 I gotta see where this ends @christina_yakomin!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:22

Lift and shift the private cloud... 🤯

Gitty Rosenfeld15:10:25

@christina_yakomin how long do you estimate it took to "break down the monolith"?

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Christina Yakomin15:10:18

I'll let you know when we finish! At least 7 years. This journey is a work in progress, but we're aiming for 90% cloud-native (non-monolith) by 2024.

Joe Arrowood15:10:37

Automated Tests and Pipelines are definitely the way to go!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:42

“We made the interesting decision to lift/shift the PaaS into the cloud” — made life easier for the app teams, but…. “I was on that team that migrated this thing into the cloud that didn’t want to be in the cloud.” — @christina_yakomin 😆

Christina Yakomin15:10:08

easily the hardest job I've had in my career


strangler pattern

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Michael Winslow15:10:45

I am waiting to hear this! ☝️ 🙂

Christina Yakomin15:10:15

yes!! We talk about this ALL the time internally. The teams working on our core trading systems in particular have been leveraging the strangler pattern

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:01

If I got a dollar every time strangler pattern comes up at DOES...

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😂 5
Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:50

I’d like to see more stories about completing and the methodology they used.

Scott Jaffa (Principal Engineer, ValidaTek)15:10:51

Could write a bot to reply to “monolith”

Dipesh Bhatia15:10:11

ECS and Fargate comes with a cost. How did you sell these ?

Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:58

This could definitely be its own talk! It was definitely a journey to create our “cloud business case”! And it evolved as our understanding evolved as well!

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Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:59

Factors such as ability to innovate, role in resilient architectures, and agility were major factors. I’d definitely be happy to elaborate more as well if you would like to connect!

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Steve Farley - VP Infrastructure Operations, Nationwide Insurance15:10:12

Tag a reaction please if your seeing Cloud migrations drive up expense due to "Going the wrong way"

😆 2
😅 1
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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:09

[when things catch on fire during a fire drill] “it’s always a great way to learn!” @christina_yakomin says with a big smile.

❤️ 2
Haendel Dorfeuille15:10:12

“With great power comes great responsibility” the MCU is everywhere :)

😂 5
Christina Yakomin15:10:38

Always need at least 1 MCU reference when @rdaitzman is involved

😄 2
Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:23

If I had a dollar for every time I used a quote from Peggy Carter’s eulogy scene with my teams…. Bonus points to anyone if you know what I’m talking about!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:06

I’m dying to ask: what’s one of the quotes? I think I may have heard it, but didn’t make connection!!!

Joshua Barton15:10:12

plant yourself like a tree and say "no you move" ? hehe

Joshua Barton15:10:46

it's a quote about doing what's right.. one sec I'll find it

Joshua Barton15:10:06

Compromise where you can. And where you can’t, don’t. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right, even if the whole world is telling you to move. It is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, ‘No. You move.’

🎉 2
Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:04

SO important as we’re working on building out a common technology platform that will work across our lines of business

❤️ 2
Joshua Barton15:10:21

It originally comes from a Captain America comic.. which knowledge of outs me as an enormous nerd lol

Michael Winslow15:10:20

As soon as you pass that first elasticity test, it make the move to public cloud worth it!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:16

“recurring instability during high traffic times in our internally run CI/CD service…. it wiped out all logs when it happened during peak dev teams.”

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)15:10:19

@christina_yakomin Can you clarify the difference between chaos game day vs chaos fire drill?

Ben Link15:10:42

My notes: Chaos GameDay -> hypothesis that X problem is mitigated by our current resilience measures. Let's test that out. Chaos Fire Drill -> hypothesis that X problem is NOT mitigated, and we want to test our observability by letting engineers find the problem and solve it

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Christina Yakomin15:10:49

Chaos Game Day - "If I inject this failure, then I expect that my system will be able to handle it, because of the resilience mechanisms I've built in to degrade gracefully, failover, or auto-heal" Chaos Fire Drill - "If I inject this failure, then the system will break in a client-impacting way, and my alerts will let me know, my observability tooling will help me troubleshoot, and my engineers will know what to do to fix the problem" Obviously, stick to non-prod for those fire drills. Game days test the technology. Fire Drills test the incident response!

Rajat Sud (DevOps Evangelist - SBPASC, an affiliate of CareFirst) (Speaker)15:10:33

Great breakdown of Chaos experiments - not only do you learn about system behavior, but also use it as an aid for creating run books, gauging response times - and in general, training and setting up a SRE org

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:23

I love this scientific approach across the board!

Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:04

We’re definitely engineers at heart 😂

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:15

yes, but you would be surprised at how many just shot and then aim, no method to the madness.


crawl, walk, run

👏 1
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Christina Yakomin15:10:17

spoiler alert!

😆 1
Michael Winslow15:10:52

I'm too excited! 🙂

Anderson Tran15:10:21

Wonder how you're solving tracing and granularity in observability using Lambda and Fargate

Stijn Claes - Nike15:10:22

Would love to see some of those dashboards

👍 4
👀 1
Stijn Claes - Nike15:10:35

We're struggling with similar challenges

Amy Cheng - TELUS15:10:55

I second the ask!

Dipesh Bhatia15:10:05

Yeap, we as well @christina_yakomin

santosh dhanawade15:10:33

@christina_yakomin can you please clarify the variety of testing environments you guys are using in CI/CD? for example, the number of machines with different or same hardware/software configuration .

🎉 1
Christina Yakomin15:10:31

Our build/deploy agents are in the cloud and we can spin up additional build/deploy agents for CI/CD tasks as needed. Extremely scalable. At times, we have dozens or even hundreds with the same configuration. in terms of test environments, in the cloud we use a less stable "engineering," a more stable pre-prod "test" which is similar to staging, and then "production." Though teams may deploy multiple copies of their infrastructure/apps in the different environments. For example, a specific copy for performance testing.


dashboard starter-kits... anyone have some?


sadly, no. BMC


however, understanding the right metrics is important, over the actual tool


we would start with system oriented, then move to application, then business

Craig Cook - IBM15:10:12

I did a talk at the last DevOps Enterprise London about a dashboard we built, metrics used and why.


cool, I will look that up. ty

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:13

Some nice MVP metrics in this talk.

Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)15:10:49

join our session on Thursday to get an overview of some of the metrics we have build into our BVSSH Dashboards

😀 1
Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)12:10:58

@bryan.finster486 its at 5:20pm BST on track 1

Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)12:10:31

@bryan.finster486 I am just catching up on your session around DORA metrics from yesterday, some great overlaps with what we have seen at Nationwide which we will cover in our session too

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)13:10:30

Awesome! If we all yell the same thing, we can make everything better.

🙌 2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:02

“devs didn’t have to submit tickets [to see what they were doing]” So good!

❤️ 3
Glenn Wilson, Author of DevSecOps15:10:02

“Dashboard clutter” is a real problem

👏 6
glitch_crab 2
Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:36

It’s like jazz, sometimes it’s about the space you DONT use!

🙂 1
Joe Arrowood15:10:30

Too much is too much

Craig Larsen - he/him - Solution Design Group Mpls15:10:30

@christina_yakomin Great info! Loving this talk. Great job. 💯

👏 5
Topo Pal15:10:45

hah! love the picture

😂 1
Amy Cheng - TELUS15:10:47

Ignored Alerts... OH My

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:52

Yeah, signal to noise ratio is VERY important.

💯 4
👍 1
👏 3
Andrew Machen15:10:08

@christina_yakomin Alert fatigue very common! A lot of time necessary to tune, but the outcomes (less work on nights and weekends) is well worth it.

Christina Yakomin15:10:23

I so rarely see teams with not enough alerts. I see teams with too many alerts all the time. I was once on a team where I'd wake up in the morning and see that no alerts had come in and assume our alerts were broken. That's.. NOT GOOD.

Andrew Machen15:10:22

We're working hard on caring culture at American. Feeling front-line versus technology pain is a big part of this, and it results in more caring toward this type of tuning as top priority.

Andrew Machen15:10:48

It's a multi-year commitment and I think covid is really moving this forward with such a reduction in staff force.

Michael Winslow15:10:26

Oh this is getting so good! Using truckloads of logs just to raise a silly alert! 🙂

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:31

Alert fatigue drives the caring people away.

👍 7
😩 1
Christopher Rueber15:10:01

Couldn’t agree more. Particularly where it’s false positives that they’re responding to.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:10:57

Doesn't have to be false. If the alert is for a disk running out next week and you wake up to it... I call them distasteful positives.

👍 1
Swarup Panja15:10:07

@christina_yakomin curious to learn what toolset you used in your org to solve the problems

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👍 1
Christina Yakomin15:10:18

Our toolset is changing all the time, but I mention a few in this talk. AWS for compute, CloudWatch for metrics, Honeycomb for tracing. Our chaos engineering platform is homegrown, and I've given talks on this in the past. Search for "Cloudy with a chance of chaos" and my name on youtube!

John Roesler - Sr Engineer (Gap Inc)15:10:10

there is a place for everything, and everything in it's place: logs, metrics, tracing 🙂

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:17

I ask the team to justify the need for monitors if they get muted for infinity... and say if they have it muted it is the same as not having alarm in the first place.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)15:10:54

...and only alert if action can take place

Amy Cheng - TELUS15:10:48

I'm guilty as charged used to autofile my alerts... (no not the deleted folder) :)

Christina Yakomin15:10:46

YES. The CASE methodology for alert construction is my alert review bible. Search for Cory Watson's talk on this for more info. It's amazing, and a core component of our SRE training curriculum.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:25

Speaking of confessions: (I log a lot of things into a Slack channel. Surely, I’m not the only person who does this, right?). 😆

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:57

job completions, job aborts. 🙂

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:10

@genek we did have a general alert channel, then we saw that it was just getting overlooked and not used, we moved the alters to other channels like Account Owners for the Client delivery.. they care about every alert and will not let go if there is an alert firing...

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant15:10:00

Great point on putting where metrics, traces and logs belong. While being able to use any of these for other purposes can be useful, finding one tool for everything usually ends up with a suboptimal solution and almost always a high cost.

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)15:10:03

As the monitoring platform team, we turn off monitor configurations that have been down for 4w. If they can’t be bothered to respond (e.g. are already in ignore-mode), we just cleanup by reducing the monitoring load.

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)15:10:38

moving away from the up/down binary to other more useful views of availability is terrific. reminds me of richard cook’s paper from 20+ years ago:

👀 2
👍 5
Chris Kernaghan15:10:50

Keep re-inventing the wheel

Chris Kernaghan15:10:44

I'd love Enterprise dinosaurs to adopt this alert SLO/SLI ideas

👍 4
Michael Winslow15:10:19

@christina_yakomin were your SLOs typically measured end-to-end, or did your group have several layers based on individual services?

Christina Yakomin15:10:14

Both. From a client experience perspective, we need to know the health end-to-end experience. But I also encourage product teams to have individualized SLOs for their own microservices. Even if you're a downstream API being consumed by others, those consumers ARE your clients, and you should know what level of service you are offering them!

👏 1
thankyou 1
Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:51

I am seeing a trend a the last few places that I have worked and rolled out SRE, it something that is done (formalized) after a foundation of DevOps is in place... Have others seen this pattern?

👍 2
Joshua Barton15:10:04

I love that you have an SRE coaching model -- that's awesome

👏 9
Glenn Wilson, Author of DevSecOps15:10:27

I’d like to see similar models for security

👍 2

There is a Gartner CISO group working on this right now

Alex Duff15:10:13

Safety teams (GRC, Architecture, UX, Security etc)


We call them "Enablement Teams"

👍 2
Eric Mosher, NSA15:10:12

Did you find the negotiation of SLIs/SLOs difficult with customers and stakeholders? IME this has been challenging where folks historically think in the up/down manner. Any insight you can share on that?

Christina Yakomin15:10:10

It's always challenging to shift to a new mindset, but in general, our business product owners are extremely excited to start having conversations about how to compare work spent delivering features with work spent making systems more resilient in prioritization discussions.

Chris Kernaghan15:10:19

I haven't found a way to approach it with customers, although that is as much a function of Account executives and Managed Services people not being on board or being able to articulate the value proposition

Christina Yakomin15:10:33

we've recently updated our product owner training program to include a 2-hour segment on SRE that heavily focuses on SLI/SLO methodology and error budgets

❤️ 4
Chris Kernaghan15:10:46

Everyone thinks that it is way to do less and reduce penalties

Eric Mosher, NSA15:10:08

Awesome, thanks!

Joe Arrowood15:10:33

Great use of TLA's

Robert Printz15:10:37

@christina_yakomin What role within your company handles on-call (24/7) alerts? Product team engineers or SREs?

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Christina Yakomin15:10:42

product team engineers. if an SRE is dedicated within a team (only works on non-functional requirements, rather than features) they don't get stuck with the on-call by themselves, but they would be a part of the regular on-call rotation like the other members of the team. higher level SREs (leads and champions) wouldn't be on-call. they'd be in the escalation path, just like a SME or Architect might be.

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:42

"responsible for supporting Vanguard's _ Line Of Business" is so refreshing, compared to "responsible for supporting the IT systems for Vanguard's _ Line of Business"

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Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:44

It’s definitely been a transformation for us! We’re lucky to have some great business partners

💯 1
Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:46

I like the ownership and the understanding of the direct impact.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:04

It's a culture thing that, to me, can only come from within.

Peter Fassbinder15:10:21

I would even go as far as to say "responsible to make the business possible ..." (see my talk on unlocking cloud-based business opportunities with @klaus.baumgartner from Siemens Digital Buildings in track 3 right after the break). I think one of the biggest challenges is the mindset change to see IT not as a cost factor, but as an integral asset of the product / service!

Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:09

@peter.fassbinder yes - it would be interesting to break that support down into components that focus on incubation vs sustainment

Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:34

and to discuss whether or not those two buckets should be compartmentalized

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:48

@rdaitzman supports Vanguard Financial Advisor Services who help people with retirement; these represent 50% of Assets Under Management. Now that entire industry shifting to reducing fees, this is an increasingly important line of business – “the ball is in our court” to develop this business. So good!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:34

“how we’re doing this represents the future of how we build software for our entire business”

👍 2
Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:11

Tooling and POC work is something I have DevOps (Automation) team and SRE teams review where I work, and we also think about not just what the tool does but how it can be operationalized.

Andy Nortrup - Director of PM at Tanium15:10:08

I'm curious how folks have gotten engineering to be willing to make the jump from "no alerts, support will take care of that" to "alerts are good"

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Christina Yakomin15:10:14

It's amazing how much better the alerts and runbooks get when you take away the safety net and make the product team engineers accountable for the on-call prod support

Sean D. Mack15:10:15

Yes - we have moved to this model over the past couple of years. Significant cultural shift across many teams.

Andy Nortrup - Director of PM at Tanium15:10:33

Like I'm the PM, I want SLO alerts so that we know when the customer is impacted. But I find engineers are worried about adding alerts to their life as a thing that might put them off ballance or intrup their work/life ballance.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:36

Throw carrots at them. Give them ownership and explain that ownership means owning the outcomes.

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It's easier if you have a Product Team model, the matrixed model is a bit more difficult

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:19

It requires pride of ownership and caring about the customer to care about quality.

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:38

If you have a matrix model, that’s the first constraint.


I love the Google hand back model

Sean D. Mack15:10:20

We've seen the benefits from this sort of mindset shift already. When teams are empowered with ownership the response to incidents is so much better and the quality and maintainability of products improves as a part of the process.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:44

Going to a matrix model was a huge disruptor (jn a bad way) at Walmart. We called it “Project Reaper”. It did a great job of infantilizing dev teams and removing operational experience. Took years to recover.


reminds me of one of Idealcast podcasts with Elisabeth Hendrickson\


when they created a testing team, their quality went down

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:35

That’s expected. I even have a diagram to explain why. 😄


without testers, engineers tested their own code... novel idea

Andy Nortrup - Director of PM at Tanium15:10:57

I'm starting from a decent place where we have teams that have engineers, test, product SMEs, and PMs working together. Still cracking long term ownership


that's great... having an operations/service enablement team helps to instill the observability knowledge

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems15:10:39

I'd be interested in more discussion of this topic during the networking time.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:19

I love how @rdaitzman used Failure and Effects Analysis says: “with business colleagues, what are the things that go wrong? when it happens, what responses should happen?” What an amazing way to co-own all the outcomes. The catastrophic Phoenix Project failure scene would look very very different were this done!

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)15:10:16

“Sit this one out”… I do this to my team all the time. Makes them stronger.

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Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:35

It was easier said than done by members of our team to stay removed - including myself!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:16

@cornelia — here’s an amazing reference to taking the Brents out of rotation during fire drills. cc @tapabrata.pal

Chris Kernaghan15:10:18

This is a brave move and totally needed

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)15:10:25

Love that - get the senior engineers to sit it out

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Joe Arrowood15:10:17

I find it very difficult to sit it out

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him15:10:16

@kimberly_h_johnson @christopher_d_porter this is one of those talks that I want my peer Directors to see, going to have to share this out to wider audience ... Thank you for brining this to the community!

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Joe Arrowood15:10:30

Thank you, Interesting talk

Craig Larsen - he/him - Solution Design Group Mpls15:10:21

Loved this talk! Christina and Robbie did a great job!

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Christina Yakomin15:10:49

Currently, we have a 35-hour training curriculum that we provide for Site Reliability Engineering, and we provide some recommendations for how to self-pace that material. Bang it out in a week, do it in 6 weeks, or maybe even 3 months, depending on how busy the team might be at the time.

Christina Yakomin15:10:25

In general, I'm a big fan of 20% time, using 20% of the week for personal, professional, and technical development. That should include things like networking, but also training!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:43

“I don’t want to bore people in a week long training” 🙂

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)15:10:51

Love the training first (left) and the balance attention… (hard to introduce that where it hasn’t been a practice previously…)

Michael Winslow15:10:25

The budgeting challenge!!! 😠

Anderson Tran15:10:45

I feel the hiring pain, too real 😆

Scott Jaffa (Principal Engineer, ValidaTek)15:10:49

@christina_yakomin would love to dive more into how you balance standardization vs customization.

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Ryan Taylor - Senior Geospatial Developer, GISinc15:10:20

I love the use of "staffing" as opposed to "resourcing" as the latter can seem dehumanizing.

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Luke Rettig - Target15:10:56

@me1342 ☝️ makes me think of you and your work!

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:33

Someone demoed a VSM tool to me this week that had “Human Resources” instead of “Actors” to track the number of people required for the step. I gave some direct feedback. 😄

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)15:10:38

How are people dealing with Fully Observable vs Alert Fatigue and Dashboard Clutter?

Robbie Daitzman - Vanguard (Speaker - he/him)15:10:42

CASE-based alerting and SLI/SLOs are big factors here, make sure you’re alerting only when your customers are feeling pain!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:10:55

Lots of human issues still remain... and the budgets, staffing and demonstrating impact.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:30

Vanguard is hiring! If I remember @christina_yakomin correctly, they have over 500 openings!!! Thank you for that amazing talk, @rdaitzman and @christina_yakomin!!!

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Christina Yakomin15:10:06

yes!! so much growth happening, especially in Malvern, PA, and Charlotte, NC, and our brand new location in Dallas, TX!

Klaudia Breslavets - Vanguard15:10:41

@rdaitzman & @christina_yakomin nice job representing Vanguard! Great to see fellow Crew at DOES.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:43

(the war for talent is real…)

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Joe Arrowood15:10:46

Awesome Talk, thank you both!

Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:10:49

Next up, @christopher_d_porter and @kimberly_h_johnson from Fannie Mae!

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Michael Winslow15:10:53

Inspiring @rdaitzman and @christina_yakomin!!!

Joshua Barton15:10:57

Great job @christina_yakomin and @rdaitzman!

Peter Fassbinder15:10:59

Thanks, great talk!

Monika Gupta15:10:10

Great stuff @christina_yakomin

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:15

Up next: we learn from the amazing @kimberly_h_johnson (COO Fannie Mae) and @christopher_d_porter (CISO Fannie Mae)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:48

($4 trillion balance sheet at Fannie Mae, comprised primarily of 30 year mortgages.)

Glenn Wilson, Author of DevSecOps15:10:51

Great talk @christina_yakomin & @rdaitzman Thank you

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Scott Kellerman (DevEx Product Owner, Vanguard)15:10:54

Great talk @christina_yakomin and @rdaitzman, way to represent some of the great things going on here at Vanguard.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)15:10:13

Thanks @christina_yakomin and @rdaitzman - This talk is on my re-watch list

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Dave Owings15:10:47

thank you @christina_yakomin and @rdaitzman

Michael Winslow15:10:38

I'm in awe of how much it seems Fannie Mae has done from a DevOps standpoint in such a short period of time! Love the presentation last year!

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Christopher Porter15:10:09

We still have quite a bit left on the journey, but we’ve made really great strides.

Ernie Davis - American Airlines15:10:38

would be great to see various timelines from a few industries on their journey to date with key moments pinned for discussion

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:55

@christopher_d_porter: “when I bring something to our team that I want to share, almost every time, @kimberly_h_johnson has already read it / heard it / etc.” 😆

Geri O’Toole15:10:03

1. humble 2. voracious learner. 3. team focused.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:03

“CISOs in general don’t get to tell a lot of good news.” 🙂 — @christopher_d_porter

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Michael Winslow15:10:25

I'm embarrassed Gene ... who was the Security guy from Phoenix Project again??? What a deep character!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:45

“I appreciate that @kimberly_h_johnson is tough, but fair” — @christopher_d_porter

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)15:10:05

Yes! Winning the business goals! Not Resume Driven Development

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Luke Rettig - Target15:10:32

all of this ❤️ “can’t win without it”

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:35

“Psychological safety has to underpin everything; in business, it’s about winning, and that requires doing difficult things and things that are new; to do unique and innovative things, you have to be able to put yourself out there, take risks, not be afraid to fail. That’s why psychological safety is so important.” — @kimberly_h_johnson

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Trac Bannon15:10:00

Very supportive of this focus; it is amazing that it has taken us this long to change the narrative. I guess the impacts of Taylorism are harder to break through than we expected.

Geri O’Toole15:10:34

"psychological safety.. I don't think you can win without it." this vs perception that she's just "being nice."

Christopher Porter15:10:21

In the Risk realm, it’s also hard for folks to raise their hand when they see/hear about a risk. For many teams, new risks means unplanned work. It takes a different culture to switch that perspective.

Brady Robinson - Director, SRE - Cypress.io16:10:02

I loved this perspective and quote. On the surface this seems like such an easy thing to say, but in practice is incredibly difficult to consistently demonstrate as individuals, teams, or organizations. Seeing the top down commitment to building and maintaining psychological safety is inspiring! Great stuff - thanks for sharing! Also, big fan of Adam Grant’s work as well, appreciated the subtle hat tip there!

Ron Westrum13:10:22

In my talk today I will talk about the "circle of faith" necessary for an organization to fulfill its commitments. Building trust on an organizational level is a powerful enterprise, but that trust can be broken by symbolic interactions that undercut collective efficacy. Actions can nullify trust necessary for great enterprises, by leaders who fail to understand what they are hurting.

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Michael Winslow15:10:04

"You have to learn something more than you do today!" --- I am always asking people who have been with the company for a long time... How did you stay up to date in order to dictate our next move?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:16

“To put your team in a position in a place where they can win, you need to create space so they don’t worry about humiliation. “For years, our retrospectives didn’t feel like they were working; we worked to make it more blameless. No more people standing up in front of room, explaining how things didn’t go right; We’ve taken shame and humiliation out of the process, so they can tell stories and make sure it doesn’t happen again.” — @kimberly_h_johnson

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When I "retire", I want to know I left the organization better than I found it.

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:53

New term: Incubation Culture • Be willing to experiment. A lot. • Psychological Safety also happens when we decouple ourselves from outcomes and focus on the team. It's not about me and what I do/n't know; it's about the team's ability to learn collectively. ◦ At Novell we used to talk about "changing our occurring" • s/failed/disproven/ • "You can get a lot more done if you don't care that much about who takes the credit." • "Work is a team sport" - KHJ No pride of authorship - just inspired by what @kimberly_h_johnson is saying

Trac Bannon18:10:43

@nuwayser - How are you, my friend! it has been along time!

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:31

Hey Traci! doing great

Trac Bannon18:10:04

I still love tech... 🙂 You?

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:13

although I also still love drumming, singing and travelling

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:34

You getting any good outdoors time in? I remember you liked hiking & camping... do I have that right?

Trac Bannon18:10:40

You remembered! I am an adventure junkie... even with the pandemic... just back from the beach followed by hiking in PA.

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Trac Bannon18:10:15

....and I still love singing, bicycling, traveling (and sleeping)

Trac Bannon18:10:23

(can we add sleeping as a hobby?)

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:01

sleeping is a strength, by the new definition • I would do it all day at the exclusion of everything else • It brings me great joy

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:28

Oh, sorry - do you go by Trac now instead of Traci?

Trac Bannon18:10:37

Always have but when I was with Deloitte Federal, I didn't truncate it. My fam and friends have always just called me Trac instead of the extra syllable... Tracy

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:07

ah right - and, I'm not sure where I got the "i" from

Trac Bannon18:10:25

NP! 🙂 How is your daughter?

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:05

She's fine, thanks! My son is well, too. She graduated Hollins U. in '20 and had her Year Of Nothing, and is starting a job next week. My son got his A.S. from NVCC and has transferred into GMU for their Computer Game Design program.

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop-Planview)15:10:15

I like responsibility over accountability

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Geri O’Toole15:10:31

"psychological safety.. I don't think you can win without it." this vs perception that she's just "being nice."

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:10:34

“You can’t make good decisions if you don’t have good information; and you can’t get good information if people are afraid to share it with you.” — @christopher_d_porter

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:19

• build a good team • bring out the best in the team • create environment so that the sum of parts work as more than the whole

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Dave Owings16:10:01

different is good, everyone benefits

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:03

We need “short-term problem solvers and long-term dreams”

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)16:10:19

Psychological Safely, like, trust, is super hard to build and can easily be broken.... how do you operationally develop and protect PS?

Haendel Dorfeuille16:10:02

“The five dysfunctions of a team” by Patrick Lencioni is a good read ;)

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Geri O’Toole16:10:17

imo, one conversation at a time. you have to care. and you have to listen.

Meghan Glass - PrdMgr Best Buy16:10:19

Fantastic book! Culture Code

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:20

^^^ @ronwestrum will be talking about how great cultures are difficult to rebuild when broken tomorrow.

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Paninya Masrangsan (Tasktop)16:10:28

I’m a big believer of authentic leaders who talk more honestly about their challenges. If the leaders are always perfect, everyone else will also be pressured to appear flawless as well.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)16:10:59

How do you coach the development of authenticity?

Paninya Masrangsan (Tasktop)16:10:27

It starts with the understanding that it is more beneficial and courageous to be real. Brene Brown’s “Dare to Lead” is quite good.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:07

“having high expectations of someone is a gift” — @kimberly_h_johnson

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Joshua Barton16:10:14

There's a quote by Alan Cohen that @kimberly_h_johnson’s comments about continuous learning made me think of: “To grow, you must be willing to let your present and future be totally unlike your past. Your history is not your destiny.”

Joe Arrowood16:10:20

You hold others to a high standard when you hold yourself to even higher standards.

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him16:10:31

Psychological Safety is beyond the Carrot and Stick approach - it encouraging other to do the best with information they have.

Brian W. Spolarich - Cal Poly16:10:32

perfectionism kills progress and harms leaders

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:03

“Just believing in people makes them better.” — @kimberly_h_johnson

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Andrew Davis - Copado - DevOps and Testing for Low Code16:10:48

“But just how do expectations influence IQ? As Rosenthal did more research, he found that expectations affect teachers’ moment-to-moment interactions with the children they teach in a thousand almost invisible ways. Teachers give the students that they expect to succeed more time to answer questions, more specific feedback, and more approval: They consistently touch, nod and smile at those kids more. “It’s not magic, it’s not mental telepathy,” Rosenthal says. “It’s very likely these thousands of different ways of treating people in small ways every day.”

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:23

I’d love to discuss the scale issue @kimberly_h_johnson to share some of what we did at Walmart

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:23

I’d love to discuss the scale issue @kimberly_h_johnson to share some of what we did at Walmart

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:10:57

It is as simple as reaching every single one 😄

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili16:10:39

1. Have everyone understand the reasons 2. ??? 3. PROFIT

Joshua Barton16:10:41

Security Champions program! That's awesome.

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Christopher Porter16:10:08

It’s already paying dividends and is getting great feedback from the Dev orgs

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Andrew Machen16:10:46

@kimberly_h_johnson any experience to share on gaining balance for team members that might have more psychological safety on a team other than the one they are currently on?

Christopher Porter16:10:03

Not @kimberly_h_johnson. But from what I’ve seen and experienced so far is that team psych safety is better than cross-functional/matrixed psych safety. It’s the cross organizational work that’s more difficult to build.

Joe Arrowood16:10:01

Thank you Both, good discussion

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:03

I think @christopher_d_porter is also looking for people who have been grappling with successfully balancing “dev productivity and freedom” and security risks (e.g., ransomeware)

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Christopher Porter16:10:29

DevJoy doesn’t mean unsecured workstations!

John Roesler - Sr Engineer (Gap Inc)16:10:41

security that is done well so that it's there but doesn't impede productivity - that's tough!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:07

Thank you, @kimberly_h_johnson and @christopher_d_porter for helping teach us about leadership!!

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Brian Smith16:10:37

There is a lot of background noise. Open mic?

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop-Planview)16:10:01

Gather pro tip.... hold down Z

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (DMs welcome)16:10:01

The Gather Bar is a great place to get started and hangout to meet other people in Gather!

Brian Smith16:10:22

oh, that background noise may have been coming from Gather. What does holding down Z do? How do I "Exit gather without closing it?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:10:48

Thank you to all the morning speakers!!!

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Reminder: The action has moved to the breakouts! Join the following channels to interact with speakers live while their talks air: #ask-the-speaker-track-1 #ask-the-speaker-track-2 #ask-the-speaker-track-3 #ask-the-speaker-track-4

Andrew Machen19:10:02

@tbannon Wide, rapidly changing datasets and managing test data sets can be such a full-time job that it is easily passed over as too complex. Some companies even use what I'll call "data deployment trains" with a schedule for how the data will look at a certain time of day/week/month (yikes!). How do we make this easier to digest for all teams? For some this is too daunting to go about the challenge of coming up with a truly consistent data picture. Where should responsibility lie with fewer team members per team? Would be interested in your thoughts.

Trac Bannon19:10:05

It depends on the size of the organization and the complexity of the data universe. For one of my largest clients, there is a test data management group much like you mention ... though we didn't call it a data train.

Trac Bannon19:10:05

Some can be via self-service; allowing teams to create filters and save the description of data they need. Then allow them to provision/re-provision on demand.

Trac Bannon19:10:07

@andrew.machen - I'd also say that you MUST understand your organization's data; test data is a view of that universe.

Trac Bannon19:10:56

Similar to any software engineering or DevSecOps conversation, the answer in part, depends on the context.

Andrew Machen20:10:08

Thanks for the feedback. We certainly have many, many very talented people who understand data well, and many very talented engineers, and a lot of those skillsets intersect. The challenge is removing the mundane but vital from the day-to-day work with accuracy, and setting an accurate "just good enough" point for whatever we would choose to automate. In my experience, getting consensus for rapidly changing datasets is a herculean task in some areas.

Andrew Machen20:10:35

Great presentation 🙂

Trac Bannon20:10:53

You are spot on that you need right-sized governance.

Trac Bannon20:10:20

And not everything should be automated (yes, I said that).

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:08

By emoji reaction, how has the day been treating you all so far? (6 minutes until our next amazing speaker!)

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Reminder: The plenary sessions are starting again in 5 minutes. Start making your way back to your browser.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution21:10:09

To start our afternoon plenary sessions, it's an honor to welcome @jmrichardson1 here to talk about Leadership Development in the U.S. Navy!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:59

I’m so honored and delighted that our first afternoon speaker is Admiral John Richardson, former Chief of Naval Operations for the US Navy! @jmrichardson1

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems21:10:35

Gene talks so slow when I'm not at 2x-3x speed on podcasts 🙂

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:30

I’m so delighted you’re here, @jmrichardson1!

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Briny Deep21:10:12

Thanks Gene - so happy to be here!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:01

“pushing the mission to the furthest possible capable edge”

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:56

…this is such an amazing story to me — until you shared this story, it never occurred to me that the majority of actions were taken by a junior officer, the officer of the deck, someone likely in their 20s… did I understand that correctly, @jmrichardson1?

Sean D. Mack21:10:27

"Radical delegation." Love it. All about empowering people.

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Briny Deep21:10:28

That’s exactly right - the whole team is likely 23 years old on average

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:48

sounds about right - the Marines I'm with make me feel old daily 😉

Briny Deep21:10:02

I can’t imagine that, Virginia!~

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:04

not on purpose, mind you. just a fact of our generational differences

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:08

PS: congrats on your posting with MARFORCYBER, @vmshook!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:13

This lack of deliberate leadership development... yes, this is pushing some buttons.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:24

(in every interaction I have with @jmrichardson1, I grow more and more convinced that there is such a gap in leader development in our profession. Dr. @mik and I were talking about this last night. You’ll hear me ask @jmrichardson1 more about this in the second part.)

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)21:10:44

aspects of leadership development 1. competence 2. character 3. connections

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Trac Bannon21:10:02

You forgot compassion.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:12

Does not help on missions in military leadership. (Still, important within the team, in full honesty.)

Levi Geinert21:10:15

It may be covered under character.

Briny Deep21:10:15

And I’ll do an exciting workshop on leader development with my colleague, CAPT Emily Bassett, tomorrow!


Looking forward to it

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:14

This is such an exciting opportunity! I’ll be there!! Thank you for helping teach this community!

Luke Rettig - Target21:10:45

Sign me up!!!

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It's on my schedule. 🙂


How will this workshop be accessed?


May be will know tomorrow, zoom link or so. Any thoughts how workshop is conducted @alex ?

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff21:10:46

The info will be posted at the close of his talk 🙂

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right on time

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff21:10:17

@ramu_vemula there’s a channel here: #richardson-bassett-workshop


Thank you Sir

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Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity22:10:18

@alex @jmrichardson1 - ADM Richardson rattled off ________@sharemyslides and I didn't catch it all. Can you provide the link please?

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff22:10:44

@nasello.scott <|> with the subject “leaders”

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)21:10:18

One reason why sending leaders to this conference is so key @genek!

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Briny Deep21:10:39

Thanks Trac - compassion is achieved through connections!

Trac Bannon21:10:07

I'll get behind that.

Levi Geinert21:10:56

And character

Brian W. Spolarich - Cal Poly21:10:48

Connections is the opposite of "hero mentality"?

Bryce Miller21:10:06

One could argue that compassion is part of character as well

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Andrew Machen21:10:17

re: Character and Integrity. I haven't really heard many companies talk about training that...they just look for it to occur naturally.

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Briny Deep21:10:43

This does NOT occur naturally! It must be developed…deliberately!

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:50

The word integrity was very commonly discussed at my Navy command... not a week went by without hearing it.

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)21:10:02

@jmrichardson1 are there some basic assumptions and expectations about what values need to be “baked in” for each leader? such that you could actually develop them and help the right behaviors come out?

Andrew Machen21:10:28

So many people wonder if they possess these skills, in my leadership experience. Perhaps a good place to focus in my coaching.

Andrew Machen21:10:22

@jmrichardson1 is there a good place to start in terms of reading material?

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:40

I've never had as solid of an understanding of mission as I did when I was in the Navy many moons ago!

Gitty Rosenfeld21:10:56

how do you develop the "connection" aspect, such that you are confident the leader will reach back out and not try to be a hero?

Briny Deep21:10:27

Gitty - there will be a lot more about your question tomorrow at the workshop!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:30

The notion of Connections seems so important in this new way of working — from Target culture slide from this morning from @lucas.rettig and @brett.craig —  It came up again in @abd3721 talk — is there an easy answer for why this might be more important in our profession now than, say 20 years ago?

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Eric Hardisty, Technical Director - USG21:10:50

This talk makes me miss the submarine force. The Navy gives you a tremendous amount of responsibility at a very young age.

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Briny Deep21:10:11

Thanks for your service, Eric!!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:34

It is sad that the militaries of the world are the keenest investors into leadership. But since they are doing a lot of it, a lot to learn.

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:02

They have to... volunteer force... turnover is high.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:17

We have a conscript army where I come from... still important.

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:55

Agreed!!! Even if you stay in past initial commitment, you rotate to another command/role…. So your shelf life in a role is often 2-3 years … so the lesson is: ramp folks up quickly!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:23

I don't see that much difference between the business world but still there is significantly less leadership development.

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:41

the business world does not do as nearly good of a job of developing their people… they often look to hire people that already have experience vice training them. In the nuclear navy, took about two years of training before the enlisted and officers went to the fleet for the first time…. I don’t know if any business that would invest that much training time in their folks before getting useful delivery out of them

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:32

Sometimes, the first leadership position requires or provides no training and past experience is enough to get further on the leadership track until Peter Principle kicks in.

Brian Smith21:10:43

Replacing direction with "Intent"


Learning from military leaders is more real, cause they deal with real-life/combat decisions under pressure. Thank you Sir @jmrichardson1

Briny Deep21:10:53

Jeff - I think that we’d agree that there are some fundamental character traits, and then there are some that may be specific to the organization!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:55

(As you might imagine: one of the problems of talking with @jmrichardson1 – I end up with more and more questions, and I’m so grateful that you’ve been so generous with your time, helping me learn!)

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:15

@jmrichardson1 - NSA focuses on mentorship in addition to leadership training. What about USN?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:27

(Each conversation reveals more the vast experience and insights he has, which I think is so relevant to this community!)

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:31

The difference in the leadership models between different countries is very interesting. The local approach here in Finland is based on Transformative Leadership. So the corner stones in the local lingo being: inspiration, trust, learning and respect.

Briny Deep21:10:49

Thanks Ferrix - seems like there’s a lot of overlap!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:07

Yeah, there's more to the model, naturally, but I was mapping those in the back of my mind fluently. A good model usually has 3-5 categories 😄

Christina Tan, Strategy at Blameless, Speaker DOES2121:10:50

Really appreciate @genek’s insightful questions

Briny Deep21:10:55

Same! the Navy Leader Development Framework talks about mentorship and then also advocacy - which goes beyond mentorship…

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Luke Rettig - Target21:10:43

This framework has giving me so many insights, including the power of explicit written narrative

Briny Deep21:10:06

Gene is the very best interviewer!!

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Brian Smith21:10:28

@jmrichardson1, do you think that David Marquette's model in Turn the Ship around is continuing to have a positive impact on cultural change in the Navy?

Briny Deep21:10:59

A lot of people have read that book. David is a good friend - we commanded submarines in Pearl Harbor at the same time. His was almost as good as mine! 😉

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Brian Smith21:10:56

He claims to have had the best Operational inspection ever in the Navy.

Luke Rettig - Target21:10:57

I'm a big believer of healthy competition being a driver of Connection.

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)21:10:31

@brian.m.smith - Inspections aside, all I know is that @jmrichardson1 is the real deal and everyone at IT Revolution could not be more honored to have him as a speaker at DOES.

Briny Deep21:10:49

Both David and I grew to like the description “best ever…”! It’s a great inspirational goal! I have a terrific story about that I can share later!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:55

“vast majority of promotions is just doing the last job, but a little bigger” 😆 “but there are 5 jobs that are vast, non-linear jumps from the previous jobs”

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems21:10:55

I would be interested in Gene talking about how he has learned to ask good questions and how we can improve our skills in that area.

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems21:10:55

I would be interested in Gene talking about how he has learned to ask good questions and how we can improve our skills in that area.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:56

Interesting — send me an email at <|>, and let’s see what we can make happen! 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair03:10:29

@kboth_does Wanna meet up sometime tomorrow during break/networking and discuss?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:45

“as a first time leader, for the first time you’re worrying about your team — when you’re hungry, well, so is your team, so get them fed first.” “if you’re frustrated, almost guaranteed your team is even MORE frustrated than you!”

Gerard Drossart21:10:01

David Marquette's book Turn the Ship around resonated with our Leadership team at Exelon. Our CIO asked that we all spend time reading and having joint discussions around that book. Many parallels to what Admiral Richardson describes.

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Brian W. Spolarich - Cal Poly21:10:30

That's a great leadership book, and an inspiring story.

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Briny Deep21:10:35

Gerard - David is a good friend. We commanded submarines at the same time in Pearl Harbor…he built and commanded a great team!

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)21:10:51

one of the interesting differences between marquet’s book and adm richardson’s talk is the differences in scale — a submarine, in one case, and the navy in the other. both are super valuable perspectives.

Briny Deep21:10:31

Thanks Jeff - I agree with you 100%

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:16

More non-linear jumps in career: • when you first take command, when there’s no one to go to for help • when you become a commander of commander: enabling your commanders to flourish (there are many ways to success, enable them to make it their solution); commanding at a distance (communicate intent, getting feedback)

Craig Cook - IBM21:10:29

I think I hear coaching going on. Help the person find their own answers.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)21:10:30

@jmrichardson1 why do you think the DoD struggles to learn lessons we take from books like Turn the Ship Around, Team of Teams, Extreme Ownership, and others that come out of DoD?

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Briny Deep21:10:43

I think the services do a pretty good job overall…always could be better, but better than most.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)21:10:12

It's a real struggle in the IT space.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:48

@bryan.finster486: on the face of it I’m reminded of traditional organization that have two cultures, one for the business and another for IT. Perhaps the difference between what you see and what @jmrichardson1 experienced?

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)21:10:51

I think you’re right. I was surprised to find the USAF didn’t have a career track for software engineering. It seems to be treated as a hobby where Airmen spend some time hacking on something and then go back to their “real” jobs.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)21:10:41

I know some good officers who want to fix that, but “sheep dipping” some generals might help.

Gitty Rosenfeld21:10:46

For non-linear jumps, how do you show that you are ready to make that jump if prior position doesn't ask for those skills?

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Briny Deep21:10:13

Gitty, it’s a relationship that’s been developing for some time. By virtue of watching a person’s connections, character and competence, you can make a risk-based decision to move that person to a higher level of responsibility. And then, stay connected with them! Continue to help them as they grow into their new position!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:46

• major command: when you own a major portion of the US Navy, and you own the mission, and need to square the two

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:06

@gitty.rosenfeld It is probably not an exact science

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:57

By show of emoji: who else feels envious of the depth of this training around leader development that @jmrichardson1 is sharing? Literally, at times, I feel almost anguish at all these things he’s talking about that I wish I understood better! Yes?

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Andy Nortrup - Director of PM at Tanium21:10:12

I don't have the depth but I spent my first 8 years of my career in the Army and sometimes I still feel surprised when I come into conversations with folks in technology and realize that most people didn't spend the better part of a decade thinking about leadership and team development.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:30

This has been noted by many people — and I think this suggests a big gap that we need to fill! (The folks from USAF Kessel Run mentioned it to me last year, and this has been a constant topic of discussion with @mik lately.)

Andy Nortrup - Director of PM at Tanium21:10:59

I think one thing that forces the services to that position is that I started as 2LT straight out of school leading NCOs who had been doing their job for 15-18 years. I wasn't going to be better at setting up a satellite dish than they were. But I was expected to understand mission, decompose it and set priorities for the unit. So we spent a lot of time in schools covering enough of the tactics and techniques and lots of how to organize and communicate what you needed to do.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:12

@andy744 That 8 year run sounds intense. I find myself comparing to my personal story. I think I wasn't able to respect the leadership training fully that I received as a 20-something and now that I return to it at almost 40, I see it from a different angle and it binds the practical experience from work with the theory.


Well, sometimes wish I could arrange a mini DOES on leadership internally, with a lineup starting with Dr Vestrum on the types of organizations, then some crash course from @jmrichardson1, and for good mesure J. Willink, ending with Jon Smart for new ways of working and Manuel and Matthew from team topologies on how to organize from there. Hopefully having some impact on senior leadership. 😉

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:13

@christian.lefevre Send me an email on this — <|>. I’ve felt something very similar!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:41

“two levels of supervision ==> now no one feels actually responsible for the proper execution” — diffusion of responsibility!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili21:10:54

@genek In a country that has conscript military, there's a lot of leadership training available. So, no need to envy. I'm taking a voluntary course next weekend 😄

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Dave Hogg (Leonardo)21:10:12

Great description/comparison of the inflection point!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:48

Well, there you go, @lucas.rettig and @brett.craig

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:35

“The job of senior leaders is to pause, deeply study and understand the problem”

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Bryce Miller21:10:22

I am going to need to re-watch this several times

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:30

“Provide connections between senior leadership and junior leaders; middle managers will see it as inevitable.”

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Randy Shoup21:10:58

I love the framing of top-down AND bottom-up

Ann Perry - IT Revolution21:10:11

Tomorrow's workshop with @jmrichardson1 and @emily356 will be at 1:20p CT. Visit their channel #richardson-bassett-workshop for more information!

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop21:10:17

Ah - the capacity to thoroughly study a problem.

shaaron a alvares21:10:19

I' won't miss this, the workshop, great conversation ❤️

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shaaron a alvares21:10:06

hey!! how are you?

shaaron a alvares21:10:33

still have few meets but will make time.

shaaron a alvares22:10:15

Hi @chris.gallivan421 🙂 you!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:04

Thank you so much for taking the time to teach us tomorrow, @jmrichardson1, with the amazing Captain Emily Bassett! She’s amazing:

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems21:10:46

Can that email instruction be posted in here too?

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Brian Smith21:10:57

Can you share that email address again?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:00

> I intend to continue to develop and sharpen the ideas I touched on to make them more useful to leaders in business.  If you’d like to participate in that, it’s super easy and I’d be privileged to include you.  Just send an email to “<|>” with the subject “Leaders” - you’ll get an automated response that will loop you in and give you access to a few products that I put together in the Navy.

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution21:10:18

:sleuth_or_spy::skin-tone-3: Now, get ready to welcome today's closing speaker, @virginia.shook from the NSA, presenting Improving the Developer Experience at the National Security Agency

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:22

THANK YOU SO MUCH, @jmrichardson1! And catch you tomorrow!

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Briny Deep21:10:44

What an honor - thank you Gene!

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Christina Tan, Strategy at Blameless, Speaker DOES2121:10:49

Thank you for an inspiring talk, @jmrichardson1!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:06

Please welcome our next speaker, @vmshook!!

Topo Pal21:10:09

Wait.. what? NSA presentation in public view?

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Eric Mosher, NSA21:10:08

It does indeed happen 🙂

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:23

@emoshmosh has given some great talks at other conferences

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:35

This applies just as much to you, @emoshmosh!

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Eric Mosher, NSA22:10:00

Just happy to be here 😃

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:09

@genek - I'm so delighted to be here!

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Topo Pal21:10:04

"Security is our middle name"!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair21:10:09

(Seriously, I can’t overstate my amazement that @vmshook is speaking here. For 20+ years, the idea of a talk from “No Such Agency” was absurd. 🙂

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:50

and now we have a Twitter feed and signs all over the highways

Eric Mosher, NSA21:10:09

And our Director is on Twitter!

Scott Jaffa (Principal Engineer, ValidaTek)21:10:36

(Warning, memory may be faulty) The first year I met Virginia, her badge had no employer. The next year, US Gov. The next year, NSA. Now she’s a speaker. Pretty neat!

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:05

It said USG first year. Then DoD. Then NSA. I felt very exposed that first year

Patrick S. Kelso21:10:33

@emoshmosh must be awkward for the people they follow, getting a notification "The director of the NSA is following you"...

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Eric Mosher, NSA22:10:41

LOL he follows 3 accounts

Scott Jaffa (Principal Engineer, ValidaTek)22:10:02

Thx for the correction @vmshook!

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Eric Mosher, NSA22:10:27

All official accounts. We're aware of the awkwardness of things like that

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:18

waiting for y'all to find the Easter eggs in my outfit...

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER21:10:18

waiting for y'all to find the Easter eggs in my outfit...

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Brian Smith22:10:38

I don't hear the tone.

Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect22:10:08

it's fuzzy - will have to wait for the higher res replay in the library 😄

Dipesh Bhatia21:10:31

2 GOVT Agency on First Day in DevOps Enterprise Summit in 21

shaaron a alvares21:10:00

yep, pretty AMAZING!!!!

Brian Smith21:10:20

More than that if you consider the sessions.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili22:10:14

Speaking several languages is a :unicorn_face: skill

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:15

“we formed a large working group… to admire the problem” 😆

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)22:10:40

Isn’t that what large working groups are for?

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:18

usually, yes. True government confessions

Craig Cook - IBM22:10:22

"admired the problem"

Brian W. Spolarich - Cal Poly22:10:23

"DevOps practitioners taught me the language to describe the problems that I was seeing in my teams."

Topo Pal22:10:40

"Admiring the problem" - 👏

shaaron a alvares22:10:43

#thereisnothey ❤️

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Dipesh Bhatia22:10:46

#thereisnothey 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:36

ah, yes. Some unique challenges: “I cannot fix the NSA complicated and completely disconnected systems.”

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili22:10:40

@vmshook I love the outsider perspective... and reminds me that one of the best product owners ever was a political history major... for her benefit.

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:18

thanks! the number of times I get "wait, you're a mathematician? what are you doing <insert non-math job here>?"

Luke Rettig - Target22:10:23

@mikayla.m.rettig is a math major and is such a gifted product manager and leads one Medtronic's core IoT and Security platforms. And she's just an awesome human.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili22:10:26

Hmm.. Luke, are you biased? 😄

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Topo Pal22:10:04

"Why is it so hard"!

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:36

not having the Internet makes development very, very complicated

Topo Pal22:10:57

I can only imagine

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:34

“it took 3 years to go from idea to people benefitting from modern tools; but it was worth it; I still get thank notes!”

shaaron a alvares22:10:04

hahaha - only at #DOES you will hear these real stories!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:32

“spreading change like a beneficial plague”. 😆

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jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)22:10:28

i need to find an appropriate time to use this quote.

Ganga Narayanan22:10:33

Failed to get senior leaders to read DevOps books, but junior folks read them and went elsewhere 🙂

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Craig Cook - IBM22:10:36

lol. "you don't understand" postmortems. Did you also get "we are special snowflakes"?

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:29

oh, yeah. with a National Security Twist. See the slide on postmortem challenges towards the end

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Brian Smith22:10:45

Indifference to beneficial books. How do you overcome that problem?

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:54

with a few. it's still a struggle, TBH

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:56

I am giving this talk at work, too, and felt these confessions might not go over as well there as here

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations22:10:57

Resilience as a bureaucracy hack!

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shaaron a alvares22:10:01

this talk and presentation style is hilarious, not what I expected 😂

Andrew Machen22:10:48

Though I've never worked for them, it reminds me of Amazon's leadership principal of being OK with being misunderstood for long periods of time for the greater good.

Brian Smith22:10:14

@vmshook, love your style.

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:39

thank you! This talk is a love letter to my teams

Topo Pal22:10:16


Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:19

“we went from ‘idea to funding’ in 18 months — by government terms, that’s basically instantaneous.” 🎉

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)22:10:33

“make it suck less to develop the NSA”

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:50

that motto was all my own eloquence. It was deemed not so great for advancing our goals... 😉

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution, she/her)22:10:13

It resonates 100% with me @virginia.shook!

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM22:10:46

"I speak for the trees Developers!"

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:50

“DevX speaks for the developers!” ha! Such incendiary language!!!

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)22:10:02

@vmshook I want an NSA sticker that says #ThereIsNoThey on my laptop!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:31

I would put that sticker on my laptop!

Topo Pal22:10:42

I want that sticker

Ganga Narayanan22:10:01

The truth is not out there. It is here!

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:28

ME, TOO. @emoshmosh think we can make that happen?

Eric Mosher, NSA22:10:45

I know better than to say "yes". So I'll just say I like the idea! 🙂

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shaaron a alvares22:10:18

OMG hilarious, so real!! great lesson of humility and honesty.

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:23

not what you think of when you think Intelligence Community and totally what I wanted to share with you

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Briny Deep22:10:32

It’s SUPER effective, Virginia!!

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM22:10:47

Who knew the NSA could bring the funny?

Eric Mosher, NSA22:10:19

You'd be surprised 😉

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:59

we have to laugh. otherwise we'd go nuts with the Importance Of The Things

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)22:10:15

Looking forward to sharing this talk with Col. Viola.

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:55

wait for the inside version...

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)22:10:47

Ride-alongs. What a great idea…

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili22:10:49

The NSA agents in TV drama are so different from @vmshook

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:32

yup. I'm all of 5 feet tall and my desk is adorned with IT Revolution books and a hot pink unicorn. Most of us are totally approachable

shaaron a alvares22:10:01

secret of transformation: talk

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:03

“human to human” (not powerpoint to powerpoint) 😆

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Briny Deep22:10:35


Luke Rettig - Target22:10:54

Also nod to Agile Conversations @ds @jtf

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:16

say no to powerpoint...she says as her ppt slides scroll by...

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Luke Rettig - Target22:10:48


Kurt A, Blameless, SRE Architect22:10:49

I thought ITRev's pastry of choice was a croissant though: 🥐 not 🍩

Topo Pal22:10:17

Perfect #JFDI story

Topo Pal22:10:42

Just do it

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM22:10:45

Just F------- Do It

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:45

“We modeled the communications that we needed” — overcoming Conway’s Law.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:19

^^^ like, this is literally willing communication channels into being? @vmshook

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:54

the channels were there, @genek, but we used them in different ways

Pete Nuwayser - IBM22:10:41

HA! I'm going to say "civil service necessitates action" instead of "I'm more of a forgiveness than permissions person" next time.

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:26

You have to own the results and outcomes, too

Craig Cook - IBM22:10:03

Yes. An absence of a rule saying you can't do something means you can do it!

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Topo Pal22:10:16

"Don't wait for permission when there is no policy" - GOLDEN

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:24

I've been called a 'disruptive innovator' at work

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili22:10:12

Okay... this mathematician and cryptography thing is beginning to seem logical: deciphering the NSA bureaucracy requires those skills.

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM22:10:41

I don't have to attribute any of these nuggets to the NSA, because NSA = No Such Anecdote. &lt;ducking&gt;


Reminder: Please submit your feedback for the talks you attended. It’s so valuable for us and the speakers. And after all, feedback is a gift and sharing is caring! Enter your feedback for those talks here:

Topo Pal22:10:27

"Need to know artifacts"!!! How do I know what I need!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:43

“Gene asked if I could share the nature of the service. I cannot. Gene asked if I can share the number. I can.” Woot!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:59

This is fantastic, @vmshook!

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Brian Smith22:10:01

USAF programs need to stop buying their own tools and start using the shared tools that Enterprise platforms like Platform 1 and DI2E bring to the table.

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Mike Dusak22:10:12

Worked hart to share those numbers, Gene!

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shaaron a alvares22:10:19

running out of time, didn't find the egg

Topo Pal22:10:27

Ok, I conclude "If NSA can do it, you can too"

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:11


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shaaron a alvares22:10:38

hahahah love it @topo.pal

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:02

Eggs - dress - Morse code / jewelry (if visible - all math based)

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shaaron a alvares22:10:26

ahhhh of course!!!

Dave Fugleberg22:10:56

was looking for english words, etc in the morse on the dress, but didn't see anything that made sense - maybe it's encrypted...

shaaron a alvares22:10:14

That's totally awesome @vmshook

Craig Cook - IBM22:10:03

Ah, there we go, "Everything my team does is unique". 😂

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:15

AND is close hold. don't forget close hold

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:07

Ah, middle managers. Again.

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM22:10:15

Aha, less sustainment, more incubation


Great Presentation. Thank you @vmshook 🙏

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)22:10:22

Adding to my reading list for my teams…

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:00

For the record - I've read them all

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quickly browsing through the list, close to have read them all, just a few missing in second column. All IT Revolution between 2 and 5 times. Thanks for the refreshing talk! 👍

Malcolm McAlpin22:10:17

You Nailed it, Thank you!

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Briny Deep22:10:20

GREAT GREAT talk, Virginia! Thank you!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair22:10:29

Thank you so much, @vmshook @emoshmosh and team!!! 👏 👏👏

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Trac Bannon23:10:39


Pete Nuwayser - IBM22:10:29

👏 @vmshook that was awesome

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)22:10:31

Great talk @vmshook. Will definitely be sharing it with P1 officers.

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Joe Waid - Manager, Delivery Engineering - Columbia Sportswear22:10:31

Great presentation! I loved hearing about your journey!!

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:32

it is so fun to get to share

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Craig Larsen - he/him - Solution Design Group Mpls22:10:10

Love that list of books! I especially like that some of those books are very empowering to women in tech / leadership.

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shaaron a alvares22:10:32

what? the end again?

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Eric Mosher, NSA22:10:41

@vmshook thank you for representing us here at DOES! Awesome job!

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Topo Pal22:10:44

Amazing talk @vmshook and @emoshmosh

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Brian Mounteer22:10:59

That was excellent but I am disappointed you didn't close with "This Presentation will self destruct in 10 seconds"

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Eric Mosher, NSA22:10:44

Missed opportunity! :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER22:10:06

or start with "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

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Randy Shoup22:10:12

OK, now I'm hungry!


Too late (early in the morning actually) here for croissants

shaaron a alvares22:10:29

hahahhaha don't be a donut :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Emily Bassett23:10:55

What a GREAT audience! I am so looking forward to our workshop tomorrow!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair04:10:15

Hi, Captain Bassett – I’m so delighted to see you here, and that you’ll be doing the workshop tomorrow! You can catch the commentary on Admiral Richardson’s talk here: And please let @annp and me know if there’s anything we can do to help!