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Use other profile14:07:35

<!here> (last time, I swear:crossed_fingers:) Watch Party starting in 50 minutes over in #watch-party! What: OKRs with Jon Smart & Dr. Mik Kersten (hosted by Gene Kim) When: 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm BST (lasts 90 mins) Channel: #watch-party Watch Live: Gather Afterparty:

Use other profile20:10:57

@chris.gallivan421 is our own little 2D world everyone has access to. We’ll even host Birds of a Feather sessions in there. You can chat with other people using video/audio.

Jim Moverley14:07:06

I look forward to seeing some of you at the bar after 😄 do join me for chats and discussions!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:07:30

Always a good time chatting with everyone at the Gather bar! 🙂

Use other profile15:07:36

Starting in #watch-party!

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Use other profile15:07:20

Surprise guest Julia Harrison!

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Adrienne Shulman18:07:24

Does anyone know any companies using The Phoenix Project or The Unicorn Project as required reading for leadership development efforts? My company has a Micro MBA program to teach business fundamentals (business plan, finance, operations and marketing). The Goal (the book by Goldratt about lean manufacturing and theory of constraints) has been part of the curriculum for years but several of us have been discussing alternatives that might better reflect our modern world and more digital enterprises. I know Gene has a list of universities who use these books in their curriculum but if you know any companies using them and can share your experience could you please DM me? 🙏🙏🙏

Adrienne Shulman19:07:01

CC: @jeff.gallimore and @annp. Gene thought you may know, I would love to connect someone with experience using these books in the corporate world with the head of L&D at my company to discuss their experiences

Jim Moverley19:07:35

pretty sure gitlab are 😄

David Sol19:07:27

That would be great! Mine isn't...

Ann Perry - IT Revolution19:07:28

@ashulman At the moment, I can't think of any who are making it required reading as part of their efforts. Will continue to think and will let you know if I come up with anyone!

Adrienne Shulman19:07:22

Thanks @annp, appreciate you! And @james.moverley , if that’s true and you know anyone there who would be willing to discuss their experience lmk!

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him07:08:21

Not sure if this fits or not... at DTCC, I was part of the Solutions Architecture Team, and we read it together as book club and that was my first time being exposed to DevOps. We did a lot of things as a team like we all went and got AWS Solutions Architect Certified, the first team at DTCC to all get Certified, (9 person team). We also created a Cloud Training program. Once I left DTCC, I ended up running many TPP and TUP book clubs at Ellucian, and even made it required reading for any new members of my Ops department and was able to get the HR team to make a TPP and TUP a required book club for summer interns. In my new role (only 31 days in right now) I am looking to see what the path will be to get into as many hands as possible. However, I have learned not just say go read this, I have made it part of discussions, have pushed people to apply the knowledge... It is about having projects and initiatives ready for them to use the knowledge... Open to DM or even have phone/zoom/teams call if you want to discuss more of my experience using the books.

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For us it isn't required reading but a majority of our leadership have read both TPP and TUP. After having such a good experience with the Team Topologies book club, I convinced my CTO to buy everyone a copy of TUP when it came out so that we could take part in the book club organized by ITR on another slack they manage. I think it went pretty well. Participation wasn't as high as I'd hoped - but folks told me later that they were reading lots of the discussion even if they weren't commenting.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)01:08:35

@ashulman i’m with ann… i can’t think of any companies using tpp or tup as required reading. :man-shrugging: that said, i can think of a few companies who have made accelerate required reading.

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Adrienne Shulman18:08:03

Thanks for all the replies and good conversation. @jerreck.moody and @mr.denver.martin was it mostly technical folks reading phoenix & unicorn projects or were you getting folks from sales/finance/marketing reading it and getting a lot from it too? So many of us in Engineering have read all these ITRev books, we can't get enough. Curious which ones are the best to cross over to a broader audience.

Denver Martin, Dir DevSecOps, he/him18:08:57

@ashulman I have lead both Technical and non-technical types through the DevOps path. I have found that for Non-Technical Goldratt's "The Goal" does a great job and I bridge the gap where (the robots) are similar to (automation). If you are automating the wrong thing it will not matter till the constraint/bottle neck is addressed. However, most of the time, I can also build a case where from TPP I work in some of the points from "Project to Product" so that we look at work differently and not in the traditional Waterfall approach and the ceremony of throwing the pig over the fence to claim we are done... If you have non-technical you just may have to go slower and explain more during the book club. I also found Accelerate is really good for non-technical if you are trying to make sweeping change, as it does address a lot of big rocks related to adoption of DevOps.

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Adrienne Shulman19:08:56

I like the Goal b/c its so general and applicable to any business. While I love Accelerate, I dont see our non R&D teams getting much out of it. What started this whole review is I made a comment about how The Goal wouldn't be published today b/c of its gender stereotypes. 👀 I wasn't suggesting we shouldn't read it, and I dont believe in cancel culture or holding historical works accountable to todays culture. (in fact, its really great perspective to observe how culture changes and progress is made slowly, decade by decade). But that conversation triggered us to think- are there other more modern books we could read that are more representative of digital businesses (we're a software company, we aren't working on the factory floor.)


@ashulman we had technical and non technical folks reading TPP and TUP. I did manage to get some of our non-technical folks to see the value of value stream mapping. I’m not certain what all changes took place in their department as a result of it, but I’ve seen their maps and I think it’s clear they could’ve used some help with the process. I’m afraid it might’ve died out after a couple sessions because of that. There’s definitely a clear divide between people with a technical background vs people without and how those books tend to fare with them in my experience. I was also considering pitching The Goal as our next leadership book club endeavor for reasons yal have mentioned. I’m not aware of other business novels with subject matter similar to the Goal besides TPP and TUP, though, unfortunately. It’s not a novel, but I did have some people give positive feedback after reading Making Work Visible by Dominica DeGrandis that covers some similar concepts. Value Stream Mapping by Karen Martin and Mike Osterling could also be something to try? Also, in case it’s at all helpful, here’s a good site that I believe some folks here are developing that covers a lot of these concepts at a high level and doesn’t take a lot of time to read:

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John Sibo15:08:18

@levi.geinert500 @stacielorrapeterson @jillmead2018