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#watch-party2020-09-17
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inactive16:09:16

โ€ฆif this were a theater, the crew is still making changes to the stage, lighting, audioโ€ฆ ignore the sounds of hammering, sawing, and electrical cables being runโ€ฆ. All under the watchful eye of the amazing @patrick.debois256, so weโ€™re in good shape!

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Jeremy Sechler16:09:52

Hi All. Jeremy Here.

Patrick Debois16:09:22

๐Ÿ“บ There should now be a seeing a livestream - with a placeholder - if you don't see - reload the page in the browser Also unmute to listen to the audio if needed

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John Walsh16:09:23

i can hear Gene and Steve

T.J. Gohl16:09:26

Can't hear Erin (if she was speaking)

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inactive16:09:12

Thank you @tjgohl!!!

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Ian Ceicys16:09:43

I could hear Gene...but there was an echo.

Mary Ann Gallagher17:09:20

I don't see the livestream, even after a browser refresh.

Sondi Hardy17:09:59

I don't see livestream either and I've refreshed

T.J. Gohl17:09:57

Currently it's just the intro screen as far as I know:

inactive17:09:02

Can you hear me?

T.J. Gohl17:09:07

not anymore ๐Ÿ™‚

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:54

<!here> If you canโ€™t see the stream, hereโ€™s the direct link: https://player.vimeo.com/video/459028756

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:54

<!here> If you canโ€™t see the stream, hereโ€™s the direct link: https://player.vimeo.com/video/459028756

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T.J. Gohl17:09:45

Thanks! I couldn't get the other link to go full screen

inactive17:09:06

Roger! Starting soon โ€”ย please let me know if you hear echo! Thank you!!!

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Mary Ann Gallagher17:09:42

thank you for the link

T.J. Gohl17:09:15

Not getting any echo here

Mary Ann Gallagher17:09:21

audio great on the link

Ian Ceicys17:09:39

audio great on the link! https://player.vimeo.com/video/459028756

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upvotepartyparrot 1
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inactive17:09:00

Hello, all! Iโ€™ll be breaking in several times, where Iโ€™ll be asking @steve773 questions live. Feel free to ask him questions anytime!!!

inactive17:09:46

@steve773 is like Dr. Bill Nye The Science Guy โ€” amazing!

Johan Tegler17:09:23

Thanks for some very good episodes in the Idealcast with Steve Spear! In episode 5 you talk about the importance of learning, Toyota this one of many good examples. How do you know that the organisation is learning the right thing? During development and production, in mechanics and software etc. In 2019 Toyota donates some 20.000 patents for their hybrid systems. A nice gesture and you understand that the technology is rather complex. But in 2009 they hade the problem with unintended acceleration with several casualties and fines of 4.2 bn USD. Volkswagen are developing their new EV ID.3 but many serious difficulties.

Iwan Eising17:09:21

No sound from Gene

Filip Berlikowski17:09:22

The god of mute ๐Ÿ˜„

Ian Ceicys17:09:35

now hearing Gene!

inactive17:09:57

Didnโ€™t unmute! What a rookie move!! hhahaha

John Osborne17:09:08

I never heard any sound

John Osborne17:09:57

Thanks working now!

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:42

Unmute if youโ€™re not hearing anything โ€” video is muted by default.

John Osborne17:09:00

DevOps drinking game. Drink every time @genek101 says clojure.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:11

The real DevOps drinking game is have a few at the bar after an allnighter in incident command.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:42

"How many can you have before you or the bouncer call it a night?"

Paul Auclair17:09:43

#watch-party is unmuted, but still no sound. Any other suggestions?

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:41

The little set of bars, make sure you fill it with yellow

Paul Auclair17:09:26

Thank you, Vimeo link is working great!

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Paul Auclair17:09:58

We've got a sound track obscuring Gene and Steve's discussion

Dave Stanke - DORA.dev17:09:36

You can do it captain!

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:55

When the ship is a floating nuclear reactor, you really don't want the captain to be giving orders to the nuclear physicist too. ๐Ÿ˜„

Patrick Debois17:09:42

You can do it ; it takes practice - look at gamers

Patrick Debois17:09:01

I think the CI pipeline also streamlines the flow of messages in the collaboration

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:26

Yes, and reduces the number of necessary messages too.

inactive17:09:31

And in a flash of insight, Iโ€™m grabbing my ipad pro so I can type in Slack without disrupting my vicdeo paleyr!

inactive17:09:37

be right back! ๐Ÿ™‚

Filip Berlikowski17:09:03

Gene, maybeโ€™ youโ€™ll also fix the sound delay on your side ๐Ÿ˜‰

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:30

Ah is there a sound delay for Gene and not Steve?

Filip Berlikowski17:09:01

I have like 0,5 sec offset from Gene

Filip Berlikowski17:09:45

Steveโ€™s is minimal. Barely noticable.

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:04

great to know - weโ€™ll work that out for the next one. thanks for the feedback!

Filip Berlikowski17:09:02

Freezes and jitter in the beginning but nowโ€™s ok.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:31

So, we have advanced from CIC to CICD. All those years.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:09:55

"How do you want to run all these ships? We have no idea!" ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

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John Osborne17:09:24

I assume Learning War concludes with Kubernetes is the way to ship

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:02

Or maybe concludes with "maybe Kubernetes wasn't the way to ship, after all."

Dave Stanke - DORA.dev17:09:47

When you use Kubernetes, all the turrets are pointed at your own foot.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:13

The yearly schedule for those fleet problems is a slow pace. These "cloud problems" are like 5 minutes each until "I guess it'll be fine."

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:24

@davidstanke532 But with this YAML you can install a pod that counts the turrets.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:52

Sour dough... I wish @jtf was here.

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:11

Loved all the bread posts during DOES London - Virtual!

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Randy Shoup17:09:09

Leadership needs to allow, encourage, and reward experimentation!

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:45

It has been proven that leadership doesn't need to do it... ๐Ÿคก

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Filip Berlikowski17:09:24

video tape ๐Ÿ˜„ ๐Ÿ“ผ

Filip Berlikowski17:09:29

Kinda plays like VHS

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair17:09:32

PS: watching @steve773 record a couple of months ago was mind-expanding โ€”ย the way he used the camera and the medium was so amazing.

Tamara Beard17:09:19

๐Ÿ‘‹ Iโ€™m here! Whatโ€™d I miss?

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:40

I can see how @steve773 has loosened his style since the event. Maybe spice it up with a watch party hat.

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)17:09:58

double audio? Or just me

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:04

Tune in and unmute! We just finished watching, and are with Gene and Steve now.

Tish17:09:05

double here too

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)17:09:20

video audio is still playing

Filip Berlikowski17:09:25

ugh guys canโ€™t hear you over video playback

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Dominic Laycock17:09:30

Talk about cognitive load :)

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)17:09:32

(on top of the 2 live guys)

Ryan Wakefield17:09:47

No kidding Dominic, definitely cognitive overload. LOL

Iwan Eising17:09:06

Hearing a replay ...

Mary Ann Gallagher17:09:11

please stop the video playback. We can't hear Gene and Steve.

Ryan Wakefield17:09:30

Gene sees this in 3.......2.....1.....

T.J. Gohl17:09:48

yes - success!

Bob Stahr17:09:53

YEah fixed it!

Ryan Wakefield17:09:58

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I so called that. LOL

Filip Berlikowski17:09:06

@genek101 @steve773 you need to rewind like 5 minutes ๐Ÿ˜„

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:06

thanks for the feedback everyone!

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:31

<!here> QUESTIONS FOR STEVE - start posting for the Q&A!!!

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:44

post here and weโ€™ll feed them to gene and steve

Filip Berlikowski17:09:09

@steve773 any plans for audiobook version of your high velocity edge book?

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:23

During London I thought there was metaphor to be made but it seems to me that this Dr Spear is a naval warfare specialist ๐Ÿ˜„ So, this has nothing to do with DevOps, it's just a coincidence.

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff17:09:27

Weโ€™ll have time for some questions, so post them here.

Matt Noggle17:09:44

I wonder if any research has been done regarding budget allocation in funding the US Navy efforts to experiment. I'm just wondering how the heads of the US Navy communicated up the chain to secure the funds to support the experiments... or atleast what that would have looked like.

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Patrick Debois17:09:23

This delay is discussed in "Real Options" ~ agile term

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Ryan Wakefield17:09:27

I think to expand on the 3rd or 4th line leaders trying to get people to change, take that even deeper and what recommendation does he have for us peons down here in the weeds wanting to make this kind of change.

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Mark Noyce17:09:02

Acknowledge uncertainty in the solution, 'budget' time in solution development to account for this uncertainty (e.g. create research spikes to explore options )...

Ryan Wakefield18:09:53

All good things to note. Thank you.

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Mark Noyce18:09:01

see those two links i posted re set based design. assuming your teams are agile? team knows best, and if they are uncertain, those stories features get sized to accomodate the uncertainty. and instead of feature dev stories they do https://www.scaledagileframework.com/spikes/ just enough to resolve the uncertainty such that commit-able stories can be created/sized with confidence. Good luck..

Patrick Debois17:09:46

CI => CD => CE = continuous experimentation

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:09:27

the term experiment may be scary or unwanted for a VP of something. so, while I love that, I am not sure if that sells to the non-R&D leader.

Patrick Debois17:09:06

those VP should start with CI then ๐Ÿ™‚

Patrick Debois17:09:49

CE (Experimetation) => CF (Continuous Feedback)

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:09:03

I have seen a lot of CD without CI lately. CE without CI/CD is lurking somewhere

Patrick Debois18:09:34

CC = Continous Chaos ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:09:29

How about CX? that's not like the totally most overloaded two letter acronym ๐Ÿ˜„

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)18:09:52

Not that I've been greatly successful in making that kind of pitch to VP level, but I've found the distinctions that the Cynefin framework's Complicated VS. Complex very compelling.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:09:35

@phil.jochimsen That would be an eye-opener for the R&D-VP again.

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)18:09:45

(specifically: Complicated means it is Possible to know all the steps, might still be a lot of steps, Complex can not be known ahead of time, and is discovered through experimentation)

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:09:18

We've been talking Cynefin on some Scrum trainings and there is the cognitive load that does not help selling other ideas. some take it to their hearts but with a more businessy background it might be too far off from the day-to-day experience.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:09:15

Not that I have given up to ease that thought into some leaders' active vocabulary.

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)19:09:07

The first chapter of this free-to-download book (or even the awesome diagram at the top) may be useful. It uses the phrases "Geometric Order" and "Living Order", and is reasonably easy to digest: https://wisc.pb.unizin.org/technicalpm/chapter/foundations-principles-concepts/

John Walsh17:09:51

How do you separate what's important vs. what's not? How did the navy decide on the problem to solve?

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Dave Stanke - DORA.dev17:09:59

Junior officers might have egos, tooโ€ฆ how do you ensure that the learnings propagate upward free of bias or politics?

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Johan Tegler17:09:39

How do you know that the organisation is learning the right thing? During development and production, in mechanics and software etc. In 2019 Toyota donates some 20.000 patents for their hybrid systems. A nice gesture and you understand that the technology is rather complex. But in 2009 they hade the problem with unintended acceleration with several casualties and fines of 4.2 bn USD. Volkswagen are developing their new EV ID.3 but many serious difficulties.

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff18:09:22

Weโ€™re just about out of time here.

Ryan Wakefield18:09:43

So to approach my original question and expand more, how do you recommend this kind of approach of experimentation to be done for those of us working in the Healthcare industry, more specifically IT in a hospital?

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff18:09:24

Coupon = SPEARWATCHPARTY ($150 off your registration for DevOps Enterprise Summit Las Vegas - Virtual)

Ryan Wakefield18:09:39

I will take 150% off. I enjoy making money!!! LOL

Shane Gibbons18:09:54

Thanks Steve and Gene!

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)18:09:06

Still live audio ๐Ÿ˜‰

Dominic Laycock18:09:22

@genek101 we can still hear you ;)

Ryan Wakefield18:09:22

Be careful @genek101, you are still unmuted...LOL

T.J. Gohl18:09:23

@genek101 camera off, mic on ๐Ÿ™‚

Dave Stanke - DORA.dev18:09:27

Thanks to Steve, Gene, and the production staff!

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inactive18:09:00

Thank you, <!here>! Hope that was as fun for you as it was for me!!! Please post any feedback! โค๏ธ โค๏ธ

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jon brinsmead18:09:18

Was fun - wanted to stay in slack and watch but ended up with 2 windows Vimeo and Slack is there a way of one? Also what is cat?

John Walsh18:09:06

that was a lot of fun. Thank you very much. Honestly, I really enjoyed the "realness" of the little bugs you were working out on the fly. Good culture of experimentation!

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:09:56

That was the "live show problem 1: muting and unmuting stuff"

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John Walsh18:09:55

and feedback for "is this thing on"

Ian Ceicys18:09:14

Great session!

Eric Jacobson18:09:08

I have to agree @ferrix. If there were DevOps lessons in that talk they were certainly buried. I'm a slow learner so I probably just didn't get it.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)18:09:21

That was said jokingly. I think the whole complexity of the situation in any company of today is hectic enough that it cannot be solved by always consulting the leader.

Eric Jacobson18:09:30

Either it was "if you're in analysis paralysis just make a decision so you can learn" or it was "defer decisions until you learn first".

Mark Noyce18:09:02

defer commitment to final point solution until you've resolve uncertainty via experimentation (via set based design )

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Mark Noyce18:09:51

see prior link posts.. at least that was my take. this was very much eliciting numerous of the principles in Scaled Agile. 1. Assume variability ; preserve options 2. decentralize decision making plus numerous others...

Billy Jo (he/him)18:09:37

Agree @mark.noyce. I think another aphorism that applies is, "Strong opinions, loosely held." Make a decision and be confident in it, but be open to new points of view, interpretations of data, etc.

Eric Jacobson18:09:52

Cool, while I'll read up on those then. My company claims to have just switched to SAFe. They skipped any kind of training, so we're all kind of wandering around.

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Mark Noyce18:09:59

Also agree @bhaelochon , yes even after point solution is settled on, being open to pivoting early and often, like a gun turret ๐Ÿ™‚ , when new facts emerge that either invalidate or help refine current approach. From Pillar 3 - Innovation ie.." pivot without mercy or guilt when the hypothesis needs to change" https://www.scaledagileframework.com/lean-agile-mindset/

Mark Noyce18:09:32

@ejacobson Lots of reading on Scaled Agile Site but definitely recommend getting the teams trained to ensure all are at the same baseline. Start with the Lean Agile Leadership and Princples articles.

Eric Jacobson18:09:53

Thanks @mark.noyce!

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Eric Jacobson18:09:40

I wanted to write down at least something

Eric Jacobson18:09:55

but those are conflicting ideas so....

John Osborne18:09:44

@ejacobson If you have audible, power through https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898 it focuses on constantly getting feedback loops in your decision process. It ties into a lot of the process, although not as much into the cultural aspects like psychological safety and culture of experimentation that were touched on in the Midway example

Eric Jacobson18:09:51

that's hilarious. I read that book a couple years ago and didn't feel like it inspired me nearly as much as Accelerate and DevOps Handbook. Maybe I need to re-read it.

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, smallbatches.fm Host19:09:05

ya the lean startup focuses on the 3rd way: experimentation and learning, so coming back to it after reading Accelerate & The DevOps Handbook may inspire you to focus on that aspect

Steve Spear20:09:29

Thanks all for tuning in. Much appreciated. Any questions? Let @genek101 and me know.

Steve Spear20:09:30

@johan.tegler asked about sudden acceleration. Great question and gets to a point Gene and I discussed towards the end, about treating every program as an X-program. Truth is, there wasnโ€™t a sudden acceleration problem. The first case was a tragic mis installation of a floor mat on a loaner car. The others, maybe brake-gas confusion. But the phenomenon of sudden acceleration wasnโ€™t recreated. HOWEVERโ€ฆthatโ€™s not how Toyota treated the situation. They did major recalls..the ratio of events: recalls for Toyota was like 10X what Ford did for bona fide tire failure and roll overs, a contemporaneous problem. Mr. Toyoda went to Capitol Hill and did a fall on his sword apology that whatever happened, it was his fault. (C-Span link, below). When I asked my Toyota friends why this โ€˜over reactionโ€™ ๐Ÿ™‚ especially compared towhat is typical evasion, blame shifting etc when a company has issues (J&J and Tylenol the often cited counter example), they said one, there was a genuine feeling of responsibility. People expected safety and didnโ€™t get it, for whatever reason. The other purpose? To raise the anxiety and paranoia level. This are hugely beneficial products but they, the processes that make them and the processes that design them are fallible. They have to be treated as X-something, never routine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZeiD2-Rbg4 @genek101

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Steve Spear20:09:44

@josborne @ejacobson @adam Good reference to Lean Startup. No disagreement with the idea of experiment experiment experiment. The point weโ€™re trying to is โ€œexperiment about everything all of the time by everyone.โ€ Itโ€™s not a sacrosanct approach done sometimes by some people for some things. Rather, nothing is certain nor perfectly understood (actually, not even well understood). therefore, if we want greatness we have to keep rediscovering it.

Gervais Johnson23:09:50

I am starting to become more interested with integration of Chaos Engineering into the Agile Ecosystem as a critical part of Complex Adaptive Systems like organizations and people.

Gervais Johnson23:09:52

What is the connection to High Velocity Edge ideas and this of Blue Ocean Strategy?