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2024-04-24
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Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)06:04:26

Greetings from Finland and from Eficode! ๐Ÿ‘‹

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)07:04:57

Super excited to get going!

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Jon Dickinson, Equal Experts07:04:03

Running sound checks in Manchester UK!

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Craig Pointon, Equal Experts07:04:21

Greetings from Manchester, UK.

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Piotr Papros07:04:08

Greetings from Munich, Germany.

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Rob Barrett , Equal Experts Berlin07:04:22

Good morning from the Berlin Watch Party!! ๐Ÿ‡ฉ๐Ÿ‡ช

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Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)07:04:55

Greetings from the Johannesburg Watch Party!

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Tessa Ledwith, Equal Experts08:04:04

Hello from Londonโ€™s Watch Party! ๐Ÿ‘‹

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Luca Ingianni08:04:37

I'm getting excited for my talk to start ๐Ÿ˜

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Luca Ingianni08:04:26

I should stop fretting about the slides about now, I guess ๐Ÿ˜„ Should be fun

Joachim08:04:39

Hello from Luxembourg!

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Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)08:04:46

Hello from Melbourne. Iโ€™d take a picture but itโ€™s darkโ€ฆ.

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Luca Ingianni08:04:53

Well at least it's a normal waking hour for both of us

Abigail Burke08:04:14

Good Morning from a grey London!

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Sara Correia - Equal Experts08:04:57

Bom dia from the Watch Party in sunny Lisbon! ๐Ÿ‘‹ :flag-pt: โ˜€๏ธ

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Marjorie Kessler (Events Staff, ITREV, she/her)08:04:27

Wishing I was there right now!

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Iryna Zinchenko08:04:23

Good morning from Munich! ๐Ÿ‡ฉ๐Ÿ‡ช๐Ÿ‘‹

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)08:04:26

Good morning from rainy Hoofddorp (NL) :flag-nl:

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Matthew Pickles08:04:10

Buenos dรญas from a sunny but slightly chilled Sierra Norte de Madrid!

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Chris Leeworthy08:04:44

Good morning from lovely Lincolnshire UK

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Nigel Budd08:04:12

Good morning from Hampshire, UK

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Juha-Matti Tuupola08:04:40

Greetings from Tampere, Finland

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Jose Brenes08:04:47

greetings from Budapest!

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Toli08:04:58

Good morning from sunny Manchester โ˜€๏ธ

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Marcin Burakowski (Evergo, AIOps)08:04:07

Greetings from Warsaw, Poland

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting08:04:38

Good Morning โ˜€๏ธ

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Sam Yeats08:04:19

hi from Sydney!! :flag-au:

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Matthew Pickles08:04:32

Welcome @sam793, I'm glad we're endorsing the Eurovision concept of Europe!

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Nick Taylor08:04:17

Good Morning from Cardiff, Wales :flag-wales:

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Luca Ingianni08:04:30

Ha, @tom.baker and I are also in Munich, @irizinchenko. We should have started our own watch party ๐Ÿ˜„

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Iryna Zinchenko08:04:44

haha true ๐Ÿ˜„

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Roviel Villa (Finance, Xperi)08:04:47

Good morning from Oslo, Norway :flag-no:

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)08:04:51

Good morning from Indiana USA!

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting08:04:21

Nick, for you it seems more night than morning. Good to see you here with us waking up as an US marines. :saluting_face:

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:10

Haha thanks! 2am for those on the west coastโ€ฆ

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting09:04:48

yeah indeedโ€ฆ @genek doesnโ€™t sleep at all today

Gary Lamb08:04:01

Greetings from Cape Town, :flag-za: !

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Armand van der Merwe (TymeX)08:04:41

Hello from Pretoria :flag-za:!!

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Mili Orucevic08:04:46

Greetings from Oslo, Norway :flag-no:

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Jรถrn Dinkla08:04:13

Greetings from Hamburg, Germany

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Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)08:04:29

All set for the Johannesburg watch party to start

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Louis Lotter08:04:04

Hi from Amsterdam

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Chris Combe at TeamForm08:04:29

hi from London - exciting two days of talks planned !!

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Slackbot09:04:05

Reminder: Get yourself in front of your browser because weโ€™re kicking off the Summit now!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:27

Good morning, everyone! Weโ€™re starting in moments! Thank you all for being here โ€” we have a great two days!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:11

Great to see you! 4am there?

Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:14

we are live!!

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Jan Hartman09:04:23

Good morning!

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Sander Brienen09:04:07

๐Ÿ‘‹ Hi from the Netherlands; watching from home ๐Ÿ™‚

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Barbara Arnst09:04:40

Looking forward to the next48h! Greetz frol Belgium!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:54

Are speakers live or pre-recorded this time?

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:42

The thrill and terror of live performance ๐Ÿ˜‚

Arne Brasseur (CEO - Gaiwan, he/him)09:04:10

hey folks, how is the video and audio stream looking and sounding on your end? ๐Ÿ‘ or ๐Ÿ‘Ž

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Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)09:04:18

Sound and video are both coming through clearly.

BMK-SECTION6-TransformationArchitect09:04:45

Greetings from New Zealand; Kia Ora - Excited to be here :kiwifruit:

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Simon Bostock, Equal Experts09:04:23

Looking and sounding good at the Berlin Watch Party

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Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)09:04:24

I participated in this event last time in 2017. Somehow, everything is the same, but still, everything has changed ๐Ÿ™‚

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Matthew Pickles09:04:32

The view in the Sierra Norte de Madrid today!

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Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)09:04:24

This was Helsinki (Finland) yesterday

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:44

Amazing community ๐Ÿ’•

Gary Chapman09:04:45

Greetings from Malmesbury, South Africa, watching from home

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James Donovan, Equal Experts09:04:04

Underway in Amsterdam!

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement09:04:17

amen to business outcomes and tech strategy being fully integrated - thats the holy grail ๐Ÿ™

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)09:04:43

^^ 100%! Business challenges and technological solutions. The two groups that need to be aligned and yet almost never are to this day

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:37

Hi @jeff.gallimore !!

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Slackbot09:04:04

Reminder: Please update your Slack profile to include more information about yourself. Name, image, organization, title, pronounsโ€ฆ whatever you feel comfortable sharing with this community to help us learn a little more about you. Hereโ€™s an exampleโ€ฆ https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F0704RVM1FC/slackprofile.png

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:20

Wow, @jeff.gallimore โ€” slick, posting the instructions on how to change your Slack handle! ๐ŸŽ‰

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:51

Ah, yes! Hereโ€™s what my Slack handle looks like โ€” thank you for modifying yours!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:10

How fun to be a speaker and get to talk and respond to the #C015DQFEGMT live!! :star-struck:

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)09:04:23

Credit goes to @genek and his (sometimes irritatingly) tireless efforts at creating this amazing Slack widget!

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Alex (IT Revolution, Conference Staff)09:04:02

This time since we're live we're instructing speakers to get in here after their session ends โค๏ธ

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Slackbot09:04:13

Reminder: The Summit has a Code of Conduct because we want everyone to have an amazing time here at the event. Hereโ€™s the summary: Listen well when someone else is sharing. Share well when you have something to say. Respect everyone at all timesโ€ฆ and speak up if you see something or hear something that isnโ€™t consistent with the environment we want for this community. If you have any issues, email <mailto:help@itrevolution.com|help@itrevolution.com> or direct message @jeff.gallimore. To see the entire Code of Conduct, you can read this post: https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/TASMB716H/FPW51DY5T

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Luca Ingianni09:04:24

If you @ me during my upcoming talk, we'll make an attempt to react live

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:35

Yay Gather!!

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Alexis Gigleux09:04:40

Hello everyone ! My main question I hope to get before the end of the 2 days would indeed be : how do I get business leadership onboard ?

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:49

@alexis.gigleux in addition to the lessons from the talks, a couple of resources you mind find valuable: https://itrevolution.com/product/talking-business/ https://itrevolution.com/product/measuring-value/

Alexis Gigleux09:04:20

Thank you @jeff.gallimore. I'll go check those out !

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:45

(Some impressive timing on automated Slack posts from @jeff.gallimore โ€” ๐Ÿ˜† )

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:41

๐ŸŽ‰

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:22

Can people from the Watch Parties post pictures of the rooms? Thank you!!!

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Joao Franco09:04:18

In this channel?

Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)09:04:13

Johannesburg

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:01

Yes, please! And please send to main channel, so all can see and envy! ๐Ÿ™‚

Ges R09:04:08

๐Ÿ’ฏ

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Maegan Kullenda09:04:20

Hello from Johannesburg!! :flag-za:

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:04:22

๐ŸŒ… Kicking us off this morning is https://etlsvirtual2024.sched.com/speaker/luca_ingianni.26lhbaot, Consultant, Trainer, Engineer and @tom.baker Robot Behavior Software Architect, Medtronic. presenting An Architect's Agile Journey: Insights and Lessons from Medtronic's Surgical Robotics Division

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Diogo Luis09:04:03

Hello from โ˜€๏ธ Lisbon

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:20

Where are the slides being posted?

Andy Duncan (Equal Experts)09:04:37

Amsterdam checking in!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:44

โ€œsurgeons are operating on patients liveโ€

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:40

๐Ÿ˜ฑ internet access could be life or death!

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement09:04:00

interesting enough - these medical devices have to run in both online and offline mode. makes the challenges even harder!

Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)09:04:09

More from the Johannesburg watch party

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:57

โ€œWhat do software architects do?โ€ Visio? Powerpoint? ๐Ÿ˜†

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Joao Franco09:04:02

I love using excalidraw

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Joao Franco09:04:44

It is simple and has that โ€œdraftโ€ design that is very eye friendly

James Heggs09:04:04

Boxes and arrows :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: that sums it up

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)09:04:57

I think that's a good distinction. What does the architect do and what should the architect do ๐Ÿ˜

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:04

Love the Comic Agilรฉ comics. So real and relevant.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:58

The famous SAFe Big Picture โ€” three places where software architects show up in value streamsโ€ฆ but how do they interact with all the teams?

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Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)09:04:49

If 1 architect is good, 3 must be better

Luca Ingianni09:04:14

๐Ÿ˜„ no doubt Kevin

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:38

Who architects the Architects? ๐Ÿ˜‚

Matthew Pickles09:04:08

The tools? hahaha

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:00

โ€œWho should architects talk to? Who should they be interacting with?โ€ These are fantastic questions that need to inform how we โ€œwire our organization.โ€ Fantastic! Need to help product and devs and quality!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:31

โ€œand how do we not become a bottleneck to their goals?โ€ These force us to a design area in the org wiring.

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement09:04:39

"feels good in theory, don't now how to breath this to life." thats the mindset I want all of my architecture partners to have, then we can figure out the life part together

Piotr Papros09:04:52

it's indeed a trap!

Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)09:04:02

"No decision" is a decision. That's how you end in the middle

James Heggs09:04:46

I feel like there's a construction business idea in building "accidental ivory towers" - Brent the Builder? :thinking_face:

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:23

Would love to shadow a day-in-the-life of many different architectsโ€ฆ seeing how the role is instantiated in each org by different people!

Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:08

That would make a great blog series or self-publish book. Day in the life of 10 different architects.

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Joachim09:04:52

Surprisingly similar, at least in the corporates I worked for or with.

Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:40

Interesting @joachimsammer - I've seen vastly different footprints, interfaces, operating models and behaviours (the good, the bad and the ugly ๐Ÿ˜ฌ )

Catherine Azam09:04:27

I ve been in the isolated ivory tower before. Finding this really insightful

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Joachim09:04:51

@phil.parker My personal impression is that at least at the EA and high-level solution architecture layers I observed different flavours (centralized, federated, enabling,...) but by large it was flavoured TOGAF ice-cream base in neat boxes. But I have spent a lot of time in financial services. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat12:04:37

You could accompany me, but half of the day would be watching me read documentation!

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat15:04:34

(the other half would require an NDA)

Jacob Brank09:04:45

A big argument that always comes up if we talk about "rebuilding" architecture is that it will help us in the future to develop new features faster. Is there a good way to quantify that? Because weighting this future benefits against the business outcome of a specific feature that is "on the table" is always challenging. (I am a PM btw)

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:15

my mentor Chris Matts framed architecture as managing the future risk of the system - which I really like.. so you are looking further ahead about quality attributes based on product roadmaps and usage data / telemetry etc...

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:38

you create options and next best thing rather than design the cathedral that may never solve or deliver any business value..

Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:42

It's interesting how that metaphor is broken. You don't build an architecture, an architecture enables you to build something. Perhaps that's part of the problem we see.

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Dave McKerral09:04:12

In the same way that we should think about technical debt as an analog of actual debt (interest rates and increasing costs if you're not making your payments) you can think about solid architecture as a financial investment, you may only be getting single digit percentage returns, but they compound.

Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:32

metaphors are always floored, they serve a purpose but shouldn't be taken too seriously or people get lost in the metaphors and arguing about edge cases rather than the spirit of the game..

Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:23

look at the impact of change over time.. if your lead time is getting slower over time your architecture isn't enabling you, it is slowing you down.. although that is also a function of technical debt too which can be a number of factors..

Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:32

Grady Booch describes it best: > โ€œAll architecture is design but not all design is architectureโ€. > โ€œarchitecture represents the significant design decisions that shape a system, where significant is measured by cost of change.โ€ This, to me, is a useful, more specific definition of how architecture is an investment in the future.

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Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx09:04:10

Hello from Lyon, France ๐Ÿ‡ซ๐Ÿ‡ท ! Beautiful day for a nice conference. ๐Ÿฅณ

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Alexis Gigleux09:04:35

Hello from Paris ๐Ÿ™‚

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:37

Creating boundaries in the system, to enable independence of action and isolation of effects (to prevent them from escaping, both from the modular boundary and into production)

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:44

Who decides? How measured?

Joao Franco09:04:47

Should we use TDD to help driving the architecture? Do u think defining the requirements upfront can help designing a better architecture based on user value instead of technology value?

Jaz09:04:24

I feel like this is something that the teams doing the work should help decide ( through techniques such as DDD). If this is something they haven't done before I think an architect with experience can really help guide the conversations in the right direction. Personally I would also say that creating clear boundaries is a good aspiration, but thinking you're not going to have dependencies or gray areas between boundaries is not realistic and will likely fail. Instead aspire for that isolation but understand dependencies and embrace the techniques (through things like TT) to better manage those dependencies. This is again where architects I think can provide guide value. This is the socia-technical challenge. I think lol ๐Ÿ˜†

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:12

This would be great for follow-up discussions.. #andon

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:05

Help manage and plan for managing the cost of change โ€” love this.

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Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:46

I'm always wary of roles describing themselves as "a bridge". My snarky comment would be "many people who describe their role as a bridge, end up acting as a moat"...

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Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:42

I think there is great value in communication, enabling collaboration, but it should really be bringing parties together into a shared working space, rather than being the link between them?

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Andy Sturrock09:04:02

There are some words here which seem to indicate a divide between tech and "the business" - eg "the two Sides". Seems to go against the point below. At Atom Bank I have banned the term "the business" as it subconsciously creates that divide.

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Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:06

@andy.sturrock I've done the same in the past - although in my latest mission we are very much recognising that there are people outside of technology who have specific commercial/operational responsibilities (collectively "the business"). However we've been working really hard to make sure there is shared ownership on the value delivered from technology/digital/data initiatives.

Andy Sturrock09:04:32

Oh for sure. We have a Commercial team, a Finance team, an Ops (customer service) team etc. I just don't like calling anyone outside Tech "the business". We're a digital bank, so Tech is at least as much part of the business as any other team.

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Luca Ingianni09:04:54

Good points. Yet the divide doesn't exist for no reason. These people live in different worlds, use different vocabulary. Just telling them to be friends doesn't work, somebody needs to make the introductions, do the translating, watch for misunderstandings. If they make themselves superfluous over time, that's awesome, but whether we like it or not the divide is real.

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Luca Ingianni09:04:20

And this is why an architect stuck in the middle isn't helping: then they become the moat you quite aptly mentioned.

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Andy Sturrock10:04:51

Thanks for replying. Yes if there is a divide there's no point pretending it's not there. So as per @phil.parkerโ€™s point the role is to bring together rather than "interface". Language is important which is why I don't like "the business" as it reinforces the divide. We've had real success bringing the teams together at Atom over the last couple of years where we now have truly multi-disciplinary teams (so people from Commercial, Ops, Tech - not just multi-discipline within Tech eg BA/Dev/test) all working together to create new products and features for our customers. That's way more fun than "the business" telling Tech what to do ๐ŸŽ‰ .

Luca Ingianni10:04:23

I see your point about "the business". Ironically, I used it as a shorthand for, I don't know, "counterparts" to the technical teams, but indeed what we called "business" isn't the business or users (i.e. doctors) either, they're sitll one or two levels of indirection away. I suppose it was shorthand for "people whose perspective differs meaningfully"

Luca Ingianni10:04:52

I agree I should be less sloppy about what I call this disctinction.

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Andy Sturrock10:04:18

That's why I just say to use the name the other teams call themselves. So if it's the Commercial team (the people who decide what our interest rates should be etc) then we just call them Commercial. It's all a bit meaningless otherwise - eg our People Experience (aka HR) team call the Tech team "the business" so the term really is ambiguous. Anyway, it's just one of my pet hates along with calling people "resources" ๐Ÿ˜ . Thanks for the talk - it was really good.

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Luca Ingianni10:04:58

Well, this discussion jsut made it far better โค๏ธ

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Luca Ingianni10:04:34

> Anyway, it's just one of my pet hates along with calling people "resources" Heh, I hear you

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:07

What Iโ€™ve learned is that EVERYTHING is about about communication and information flows, whether manufacturing or software. This is great. (And thus the need to wire our organizations well, which in our context, is all about architecture.). Nice work.

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:31

Shouldn't developers be close to product management though? The more intermediaries, the more communication channels, the more confusion and miscommunication.

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Joao Franco09:04:10

User => Developer ๐Ÿ’ฏ

Louis Lotter09:04:41

Would it not be better to have Developers and PM/Business talking to each other directly rather than funneling that communication through Architects ?

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:56

Architecture is more about guardrails and providing consultancy.

Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:16

I think a key point is scale of the system relative to the number of teams involved..

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:25

Architect as facilitators and translators of communication between rolesโ€ฆ

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Joao Franco09:04:26

Should architects be hands on? At least prototyping? How can a hands off architect understand the impact of its decisions in development productivity?

Prinay Panday (Software Engineering Manager - Lula)09:04:38

Interesting @joao.franco. So an architect at least performs a POC before sending over to Dev?

Joao Franco09:04:18

IMHO should at least experiment / spike in the code base, bc it will make a more informed decision that has direct impact in the development productivity

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Joao Franco09:04:51

A classic example is when normalising databases, it can have a massive impact on read queries performance but from a theoretical pov it is the perfect solution, also from a development perspective when thinking about testing it is very often much more complex because the setup requires creating much more entities

Luca Ingianni10:04:04

Joao, this is what Tom has ended up doing, and both him and the developers have found it useful

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Gerald Benischke09:04:56

@genek I โ€œpervertedโ€ the 80:20 rule. Software engineering is 80% social and only 20% technical. This great talk illustrates this perfectly. Thanks @luca @tom.baker

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:00

Boxes and arrow โ€” funnily enough, one of the best way to portray connections. Nice!

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:00

facilitating shared understanding through conversation, coaching, and boxes and arrows - enabling teams not making technical decisions on behalf of others.. or you lose shared ownership / understanding (someone elses decision)

Phil Parker (Equal Experts)09:04:06

With all this talk of boxes and arrows it would seem remiss not no point out the success we've had with https://c4model.com/

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:24

yay for Simon Brown +1

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Prinay Panday (Software Engineering Manager - Lula)09:04:05

We are also exploring the c4 model ๐Ÿ™‚

Piotr Papros09:04:14

The main thing is connecting, facilitating, and asking the questions, which will help bring everyone to a shared understanding and use the wisdom of the group

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Andy Bold (Cloud/Security SEM - Flagstone Investment Management)09:04:27

Boxes and arrows diagrams can be a super helpful tool in ensuring that everybody is on the literal same page and not making assumptions that will trip you up later. They're a helpful tool to help with the comms and connections that a modern tech architect needs to do.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:41

โ€œarchitects should use the same tools as the software developersโ€ ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)09:04:39

100% Agree, it's not easy to get the developers and business speak the same language. Architects ๐Ÿ’Ž

Akis Sklavounakis09:04:53

Has anyone captured the Lessons Learned?

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Rob Hornby09:04:20

Developers can talk to the business, itโ€™s self importance to say they canโ€™t.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:50

we (my former role) tried not to use the term business as anyone working in a company is part of they business - moving to product and customer orientation focuses on needs and opportunities rather than some group of people from another planet ๐Ÿ˜‰ they all need to meet in the middle - quite often product management doesn't exist and architects try to fill that gap

Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)09:04:52

Aren't developers part of the business? (I mean, as a consultant I know it's a bit of a different story, but in other cases ...)

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Rob Hornby09:04:57

Part of a team, yes, if having to filter conversations via architecture then other problems.

Luca Ingianni09:04:24

Oh of course they can, and they should. I didn't mean to imply that at all. However it's my experience that they often find it difficult to understand one another well

Rob Hornby09:04:25

My experience is the opposite once that relationship is formed. Less on roles more on enabling that direct conversation should be the focus.

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James Heggs09:04:30

I wonder if speakers have thoughts on the architects key role to be that of broadcasting understanding, one by which that understanding can be communicated to different audiences (regulation, audit, teams etc) and in different forms dependent on need?

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Luca Ingianni09:04:09

Yes, I think that's a crucial part of the role: translate between different points of view, languages and indeed world views

James Heggs09:04:42

Yeah such that it can be queried, adapted, fixed, improved then you might create that sense of co-ownership

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting09:04:34

amazing talk @luca & @tom.baker โค๏ธ

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:04:04

โšก Next, here to present Pfizerโ€™s Future of Development is @jamie283, Director, DevOps Lead from Pfizer, and and @laura507, CTO at DX. They will talk about how developer experience became so critical at Pfizer, and how they helped their organization win, eventually helping thousands of developers across the organization.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:29

Thank you, @jamie283 and @laura507! I remember so well talking with Brady, a UPS driver, right after he delivered the first COVID vaccines to a small Oregon town in Jan 2021 โ€” I remember tears welling up, hearing about how momentous and important that was, the first step to bringing normalcy to society. ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ™

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:37

Yay Developer Experience (DX, DevEx)!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:34

โ€œwe started hearing more complaintsโ€ฆโ€œ. ๐Ÿ˜†

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:10

The complaints are the journey ๐Ÿ˜‚

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:37

โ€œit eventually became more difficult to maintain technical excellence.โ€ (Ouch. Because we were too mired in trying to figure out how to write YAML config files and such, is what comes to mind.)

Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:34

YAML the modern equivalent of raising a request for an on-prem server (painful)

Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:56

Retaining key talent is key to continuing success

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Marcin Burakowski (Evergo, AIOps)09:04:01

Right, this topic is also extremely broad, encompassing even ESOP measures

Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:03

ESOP measures ? - got any more info on that @biuro?

Marcin Burakowski (Evergo, AIOps)09:04:21

stock option programs

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting09:04:52

Right Nick, looking at last 2023 Gallup engagement report and the last 2023 burnout report from Infinite Potential, this should be one of the highest CXOs priority

Jennifer Riggins08:04:12

burnout yes. I would not say stock options would motivate great work just sticking around

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:06

โ€œour mission: improve the lives of 1B+ people.โ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:50

โ€œwe used to outsource our tech strategy to external vendors. this turned out to be not smart. this needs to be led by our most senior engineersโ€ ๐ŸŽ‰

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Matthew Pickles09:04:17

@jamie283, my experience of large companies such as yours, is they tend to ask for such a large scope of technical knowledge in job descriptions that it becomes almost impossible that anyone would really have all that knowledge. What's your view as an insider?

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Jamie Hook10:04:24

I will admit, some of our Job descriptions are terrible. I think part of this is a result of trying to ensure that the role is deemed senior enough internally to justify the level requested. Roles often go to an external group to be graded. My advice here would be to try and pick out what you consider to be the key needs for the role and apply if you meet them. I will take this as validation/feedback though to think about!

Matthew Pickles10:04:58

Thanks for the reply @jamie283! Good advice.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:24

Principal Engineers!!!! โ€œsome of our most trusted and respected peopleโ€

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:43

Make the โ€œright thingโ€ as easy as possible

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:01

โ€ฆand the wrong thing hard ๐Ÿ’ก

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:34

Nice: On the one hand, we discourage โ€œfungibility of contractorsโ€, but also we recognize that at our scale, we have people onboarding and joining and switching teams all the time.

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:47

Making "the right thing easy" is the "paved paths" concept in platform engineering.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:23

In addition to writing, would training AI as a companion be useful?

Jamie Hook10:04:13

We have teams experimenting with AI for sure. Chat based interfaces for documentation is one such experiment. I don't think AI (or at least I have not seen it) is ready to replace a great technical writer or a passionate engineer who wants to communicate. It can certainly help though.

Steven Knopf09:04:33

@jamie283 I'm interested in hearing more about what you mean by "discourage fungibility of contractors".

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:58

creating internal mobility and learning of employees seems a lot more useful to building capability in a large complex org.. if you are leaving it up to contractors you are you have a lot of extra risks to manage..

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Jamie Hook10:04:03

I am not sure this is true of all large organisations, but with Pfizer we do have a large contractor base. It has been consistently growing since I have been here. What I don't like to see is a rotating door of contract resources, if there is long term consistent demand but we cannot convert that spend into employee headcount. It is better to retain the contractors and plan their moves around the organisation vs new bodies consistently.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:02

very interesting @jamie283 - what is preventing converting to perm / hiring - is it s project funding (OpvsCapEx) / thinking challenge or something else (super curious) I can understand a need to ramp up and down some people over time but balancing .. in terms of capacity you cannot simply onboard productive people and ramp back down after 6 months..

Jamie Hook11:04:07

Yes it is to do with flexibility & the types of budget used. Also there is an assumption that we need to flex more than we have demonstrated in the past. For the past few years we have been hiring more technical resource as employees. This trend is continuing.

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Louis Lotter09:04:17

The two talks together triggers the question. Architects vs Principal Engineers. What are the differences ? Do we need both ? Is there overlap or are they totally different ?

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement09:04:50

this would be a fantastic networking/breakout topic. At my company, Target $110B USD company with over 7k technologists - we have 6 total architects and about 100 Principal Engineers. I see a stark difference, but would be interested in other views

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Toli09:04:21

This is a great question! I find that Principal Engineers of the 2020s are doing things that Architects have stopped doing or donโ€™t have the skills to do. Using techniques and thinking from DDD, Team Topologies and even Wardley Mapping. But at the same time have the credibility to influence and coach teams on their ways of working and technical architectural decisions. Not dishing architects here but in my experience the โ€œPrincipal Engineerโ€ role is closer to what is needed than the โ€œArchitectโ€ role as we have understood it for years. Ultimately people can move between the roles

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Louis Lotter10:04:09

For me the "struggle" to define what an Architect should be doing comes from the fact that Architecture design etc. tend to be cyclical work. It's a hat more than a role.

Toli10:04:58

@llotter agreed ๐Ÿค

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Luca Ingianni10:04:57

I think it's important to distinguish the title from the purpose, because I suspect we all can agree on certain functions we feel need to be taken care of, but where to draw the boundaries and what to call the different roles may vary strongly even within a single org

Luca Ingianni10:04:44

Indeed at Medtronic for isntance they need a very technical engineer role -- it would probably make sense to call it principal engineer instead

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat16:04:55

I usually see Principal Engineers doing quite a lot of architecture work.

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat16:04:12

Also, Architects with a solid foundation in software engineering are the best. You should be able to at least tinker with the systems you're integrating to prototype things and fully understand how they can work together. Most of the Architects I know were software engineers first, and the best ones still get their hands dirty at least a couple of times per month.

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat16:04:56

When you get to a certain level of scope, though, it becomes too difficult to work across many products and still take up any story-level implementation work. You find that you never want to be the bottleneck or have anyone waiting on work that you're doing.

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat16:04:10

It's a grey line at Red Hat at least. I think most people with the Architect role here are graded in the HR system as "Principal Software Engineer" or "Senior Principal Software Engineer". It's not a totally separate career track.

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat16:04:49

We also generally let people write their own job titles - as long as their manager agrees then it goes into the org charts, and you make your own business cards, etc. Someone might choose to change their job title to Architect because they feel like they're not doing much coding, or because they like how it sounds better. Others are allergic to the term Architect because they think that those are people who don't do any real work, so they prefer SPSE. So to me, it's more of a role designation.

Vlad Ukis07:04:59

Wow, self-nomination in terms of role! An interesting concept, @ann.marie.99!

Toli08:04:33

Yeah, very!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:10

Exploring how to go WAY BEYOND mere advocacy. Nice!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:52

โ€œNot everyone will be onboardโ€ ๐Ÿ˜†

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:09

Takes a lot of effort to be really understood

Jaz Blakeston-Petch09:04:29

What tips would you give those looking to transform how they work to get real buy in and support from execs to make it a reality?

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:04

find business problems / opportunities that are worth solving (apply commercial lens) and focus on that - avoid talking about methods / frameworks etc or you will quickly lose people

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Vlad Ukis07:04:24

Also, you need to earn trust before attempting the buy-in

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Chris Combe at TeamForm08:04:13

@vladyslav.ukis Chris Matts calls this the zeroth constraint - similar idea, prove some value, establish trust by solving a problem rather than selling a solution https://theitriskmanager.com/2017/02/05/the-zeroth-constraint/

Vlad Ukis11:04:37

thanks for the reference!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:20

Love these โ€” in other words, โ€œall the things that developers donโ€™t really want to worry about.โ€ (speaking from personal experience!)

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Joao Franco10:04:22

Would โ€œidle timeโ€ be more accurate then โ€œtime lossโ€, it sounds to me that idle time is easier to measure then time loss because they can be interpreted differently. Idle time can be for example how much time a dev is waiting for pipeline feedback.

Joao Franco10:04:52

Time loss can be interpreted as a useless meeting, but it is not idle time

Laura Tacho10:04:06

Time loss is idle time, time lost due to friction, rerunning a flaky test, rerunning a CI build, wasted time in a meeting, etc.

Joao Franco10:04:47

I get it, I was just wondering if in terms of measuring, the way u measure each one and how u act on it to improve are different? One can have a more technical solution and another a more organisational/cultural solution

Laura Tacho10:04:14

Yeah, the time loss metric is a driver, which is sort of a โ€œbig pictureโ€ metric. Along with it, Pfizer is capturing specific signals about where that time loss might come from (CI/CD, test instability etc)

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Dave Anderson09:04:43

Excellent transformation story!

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Matthew Pickles10:04:31

@laura507, do you think there's a way to incorporate DevEx into the onboarding process, 'shifting left' on DevEx almost?

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Matthew Pickles10:04:23

I also meant into the recruiting process above if it wasn't quite clear.

Laura Tacho10:04:00

Yes, onboarding definitelyโ€ฆ in some ways I think that if you have an excellent onboarding process (think lots of documentation, examples, service catalog, golden paths everywhere) to get a developer up and running quickly, those will also improve the developer experience of every other developer in the company.

Laura Tacho10:04:33

By in the recruiting process, do you mean highlighting an excellent developer experience as a way to attract highly talented folks?

Matthew Pickles10:04:43

@laura507, thanks for your replies. What I meant is organizing the recruitment process in a way that allows the developer to showcase their 'talents' and their fit for the particular role or project in question.

Laura Tacho10:04:54

Yeah, there are ways that work better than others, of course depending on different companies. Iโ€™ve reworked engineering sourcing/recruitment/interviewing for a handful of companies. I found that candidates rate the interview experience more positively once they have a chance to ask their own questions, and talk about their technical experience in detail, before being asked to do a coding interview. Usually those two things are enough to see if itโ€™s a good mutual fit before going into the more time-intensive parts of the interview process.

Matthew Pickles10:04:49

@laura507, thanks, I've got to admit that's the least I'd expect, but after my experience of various if not many interviews, is that you can ask all the questions you like but you don't necessarily get the most convincing answers. I wondered if there might be some kind of pre-interview process to focus the interview towards aspects that the developer has questions about with the job description so the 'odd' slide could be shown in the interview or perish the thought, even a small demo could be arranged to give the idea of what they might be working with. I know intellectual property questions might come into play but it would be good for both the developer and project team to get a measure of who they are engaging with.

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Laura Tacho10:04:20

Back when the market was more competitive for talent, Iโ€™ve seen many companies take that approach and focus more on selling the role before getting into skills demonstrations.

Matthew Pickles10:04:00

Well, I'm glad at least that your work is at least putting the question of DevEx on the table. Keep it up!

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Pavlo Muntianu10:04:24

Greetings to Phizer, great presentation and the content. Question: you measure the success by assessing Project and Program metrics. Should not that be Products instead if you decided to inhouse technology and treat it as a key differenciator?

Laura Tacho10:04:46

Products sit at a different level. The program is large and touches the whole org, projects are very targeted initiatives that touch multiple products.

Pavlo Muntianu10:04:00

Yes, let me rephrase the question: how do you measure success of the products? Is it part of the transformation metrics?

Luciano Visentin10:04:08

How do you measure the โ€˜riskโ€™ of attrition?

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:40

the bus problem is a good place to start >> how many people have to leave before the team cannot function / deliver

Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)10:04:35

I had a colleague who refused to use the bus problem because they knew someone that actually did get hit by a bus. So they renamed it to the circus problem. How many of your people need to run off to join the circus before your team is affected ๐Ÿ˜„

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Luciano Visentin10:04:37

But once they have left it is โ€˜attritionโ€™ not โ€˜risk of attritionโ€™

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:26

@kevin.ashton I totally agree and usually reframe it as how many people hop onto a bus and leave.. rather than "hit by a bus" which is not great language - def agree to your point

Laura Tacho10:04:19

attrition risk in this context is how many developers are at risk of voluntarily leaving the company because of low satisfaction

Laura Tacho10:04:35

not how much risk attrition would bring to your companyโ€ฆ. but that is an interesting one ๐Ÿ™‚

Luciano Visentin10:04:10

How are you measuring developer satisfactionโ€ฆ โ€˜voice of the developerโ€™ can so often be overlooked, really important to listen and hear what drives the attrition and then act on that. Really interested to hear how you measure and tack this

Laura Tacho10:04:27

They measure it through DXโ€™s survey tool, which is โ€œvoice of developerโ€ and captures satisfaction, but also has questions about workflows (just like DORA is survey based but asks questions about deployment frequency etc)

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:45

@laura507 does that cover the whole team (Cross-functional - including product / design etc) - how are the cross-functional teams managed and made visible into the DX tool? quite often tools dont have a real cross-functional team and structure that is visible and consumable across tools.

Laura Tacho10:04:52

@chriscombe definitely a conversation Iโ€™d want to have with you and your team ๐Ÿ™‚ DX targets developers right now, so most orgs donโ€™t include product/design because the questions donโ€™t apply to them.

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Luciano Visentin10:04:13

We use a survey tool tooโ€ฆ in fact a number of surveys, one corporate survey twice a year, a monthly survey at an Engineering domain level and a team health for each team on Slackโ€ฆ in addition we hold listening sessions and skip level meetingsโ€ฆ it sounds a lot but itโ€™s important to us to hear what our value creators are feeling/experiencing

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:30

love to chat some time

James Heggs10:04:11

It would be interesting to hear if Pfizer see the transformation as a journey or destination? At a sponsor/VP/C level that would be interesting to hear

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Louis Lotter10:04:49

I would love to hear a bit on how Pfizer defines the Principal Engineering role.

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Jamie Hook10:04:33

We currently have a few posted roles, this might help frame the expectations of the role. https://www.pfizer.com/uk/about/careers/job/4908955

Nigel Budd10:04:24

Terrific presentation from Pfizer, loved the DevEx metrics and what a journey you are on

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Laura Tacho10:04:52

Thanks Nigel!

Toli10:04:20

Great presentation! Do you have an example of a signal from DX that made you change an approach or direction in your program? @jamie283 @laura507

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Laura Tacho10:04:44

Documentation contributions would be a good example of this, also knowledge silos ( โ€œhow often does it take you 10 minutes or more to get an answer about (code|system|etc)โ€œ) The program emphasised knowledge and training for the first push of work and both of those numbers went up over the last 1-2 quarters

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:04:39

๐Ÿ“š Please welcome, @ojacques2,Sr DevOps and Cloud Architect, AWS, @claude.ampigny, Sr Customer Delivery Architect, AWS and @clementsabater, Delivery Manager, EDF. They will provide a behind-the-scenes view of the digitalization program of one such large industrial organization, and how they adopted innovative strategies such as the "You Build It, You Run It" model, "Team Topologies" for organization, and Amazon's famous operational mechanisms.

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Vladislav Pernin10:04:53

Hello Clรฉment !

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:00

"Le Project Unicorn" :unicorn_face:

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Marcin Burakowski (Evergo, AIOps)10:04:57

on parle francais ici ๐Ÿ™‚!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:25

Hello, @ojacques2 @claude.ampigny Clรฉment Sabater on how they are LITERALLY keeping the lights on! ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:24

Doesnโ€™t France have a large amount of nuclear :radioactive_sign: energy production?

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Alexis Gigleux10:04:52

Indeed (for electricity)

Akis Sklavounakis10:04:26

Where is the nuclear production in the chart?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:58

The changing energy mix โ€” and Iโ€™ve heard @adrian.cockcroft talk about the insane power needs of modern LLMs, and how that is putting unprecedented pressure on data center sustainability.

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Akis Sklavounakis10:04:03

France is the largest user of nuclear energy in western Europe.

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Louis Lotter10:04:18

Are you really projecting a reduction in energy usage ?? Everything I've read and understand about where things are going led me to believe that the worlds total energy needs will be going up exponentially. Would like to understand why France is different.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:05

probably nuclear and renewable rather than reliance on fossil fuels (total guess)

Matthew Pickles10:04:25

That is a good question! I have heard that Generative AI will be one of the big drivers of this increased use so the focus must be on energy efficiency.

Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx10:04:28

Great question. It is indeed the projection. The global consumption is reducing. The intention is that in France, there are massive investments in building / housing efficiency (up to be positive). The grid is also being decentralized with self-production (solar). Full report here, coming from government (end of 2023). Other projections are saying differently. The important piece of information is that the mix is drastically changing, so MUST IT. https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/23242_Strategie-energie-climat.pdf

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:21

@ojacques2 @claude.ampigny and Clรฉment I think this is so exciting โ€” Iโ€™ve interacted with people in the critical infrastructure community and some of these tactics just seemed unthinkable to them. I canโ€™t wait to share your story with them!

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Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx10:04:34

There are nuances of course, and not everything is in scope. Yet, to run an industry of this size, which so diverse, there are plenty of opportunities. Opened for discussion!

Claude Ampigny10:04:09

In fact not everything have to be changed.

Rob Barrett , Equal Experts Berlin10:04:22

The Equal Experts Berlin watch party are enjoying the morning talks ๐Ÿ˜„

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:36

Ich bin ein Berliner ๐Ÿ˜Š

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:27

Dr Werner Vogel with the Half-life t-shirt looking rather cool!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:57

In critical infrastructure, you have not only the typical IT silos, but you also have the IT/OT divide, which we have an amazing talk on tomorrow โ€” another amazing first.

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Jaz10:04:39

Le Dev Ops

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Sander Brienen10:04:15

@ojacques2 @claude.ampigny @clementsabater What technologies did you use to create the consumable components and to bring them to the S.A. teams?

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Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx10:04:37

If S.A. stands for Stream Aligned: it's all about the golden paths. A golden path for Single Page Application (SPA) type, a golden path for private web app, a golden path for feeding enterprise data lake. Another dimension are golden paths for the experience from developer environment, to build, to CI/CD, to operations, for each of the main technologies: serverless/lambda, containers.

Sander Brienen11:04:21

S.A. did indeed stand for stream-aligned. Thanks for the answer. I might have missed it a little in the presentation but with golden path, you mean all the tools / components required to develop, build, integrate and deploy each of these types of applications, right?

Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:28

Start with the end in mind

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:47

โ€œas part of our Press Release preparation, we create list of questions that all our stakeholders and customers might haveโ€ฆ an incredible challenge that takes a lot of work, and forces us to understand who our customer actually is.โ€

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:56

similar to a pre-mortem - what could go wrong, what did we miss

Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx10:04:48

This also relates to the "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L227qFemjqI" which happens when we share the PR/FAQ with stakeholders, and opening for comments. We want the FAQs to cover everything which can be asked.

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Toli10:04:06

Love the idea of the PRFAQ approach but I suspect it needs the right culture and discipline for it to work. Has it worked for you? What are the gotchas?

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Dave Anderson10:04:54

I love this approach. I was working one this morning. You need to have discipline in writing and the ability to partner with a few strategic people. It's not an operational thing, but very effective.

clรฉment Sabater11:04:42

First time it was surprising and the experience of aws proserve was a must. But two iterations later, we saw the value especially to correct our misalignment. I confirm itโ€™s more a strategic approach .

Vlad Ukis08:04:38

any reference where I could read up on PRFAQ?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:07

(A fantastic example of Slowification: pushing activities into Planning and Practice!)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:07

โ€œbuilding apps that will last for 20-30 years. yes, we want to optimize for devs, but also for ops.โ€ ๐Ÿ”ฅ

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James Heggs10:04:26

I guess even more so when those humans based in ops could experience a 100% turnover of staff over that timeline!

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Toli10:04:04

I like the aspiration but is this really sustainable? Has the change in the tech environment slowed down? Will apps delivered in 2024 not be legacy slowing us down in 2044? And massive tech debt? Isnโ€™t what we want to optimise for changeability and evolvability?

Dave Watson - Sainsburyโ€™s10:04:01

I recall a Gartner expression that the majority of code cost is post implementation, especially if something goes wrong and lots of unhappy customers ring your contact centre. I also liked the expression early to insulate against the cost of change. This rings true when you couple with third parties to provide services and you need to change over time.

Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx11:04:07

> I like the aspiration but is this really sustainable? Has the change in the tech environment slowed down? Will apps delivered in 2024 not be legacy slowing us down in 2044? And massive tech debt? > > Isnโ€™t what we want to optimise for changeability and evolvability? Any new code that we write is the new legacy anyhow. First thing is to move a project based approach to a product based one. It's a departure for this program. Regarding tech debt : the intent is for the product team to handle it, helped by automation for example to upgrade run times, and dependencies. Managed services also helps to move tech debt to someone else (AWS in that case).

Toli11:04:06

@ojacques2 ๐Ÿ’ฏ offloading to someone else e.g. AWS, definitely extends the half life of the code we write as you should be largely able to rely on the contracts/interfaces being respected over time. Also, runtimes, ops, security managed for you etc.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:49

โ€œweโ€™re launching one new product per monthโ€. (!!!)

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:05

What was โ€œgolden pathโ€ in French?

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)10:04:20

"parcours de rรฉfรฉrence"

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)10:04:47

so "reference path" translated word-for-word

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement10:04:39

Slowification!!! such an important thing that I never had a word for until the Wiring the Winning Organization. Someone posed the question earlier about walking away with how you get business outcomes aligned. It takes regular Slowification, deep thinking time and over communication. I love the example these guys are sharing here!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:40

So cool โ€” hiring goal: 350 cloud native devs to support critical infrastructure for power generation!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:12

Do the need them in those places or does #FullyRemote work align with the org?

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Owen10:04:44

Very ambitious recruitment target in that timescale!

Roman Lublinski (Delivery Manager at EPAM)10:04:31

Seriously, @clementsabater - we at EPAM can help with 350 developers. Ping me and let's connect/discuss.

Claude Ampigny11:04:40

For now, it cannot be fully remote.

clรฉment Sabater11:04:07

We are just starting and we want to create a strong team spirit and we preferred to live together 2 or 3 days by week for the moment.

Akis Sklavounakis10:04:57

Interesting equation.

Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx11:04:59

It is our hypothesis. We want to iterate - do you see the same?

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)10:04:18

:rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Akis Sklavounakis10:04:21

It seems to show that platform engineering is applicable to skills only. Is this what it shows?

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Claude Ampigny11:04:38

We did not want to decompose the equation but in fact: platform engrineering = Skills ^ Builder Experience. The point we wanted to make was that platform could help reduce the skills level.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:32

The Missing Books!!! ๐Ÿ˜†

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Stephen Thomas10:04:06

The challenge is not attracting top talent, itโ€™s developing top talent. https://youtu.be/NAazenCRQSY?si=_vhqdMUtgpL4AEQZ

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Joao Franco10:04:52

Agree to some extent, sometimes I find challenging developing the atitude that leads to wanting to learn with which u can easily develop talent

Stephen Thomas10:04:24

Attitude, and character. For example, โ€ข Is the person trying to be the smartest person in the room or to make the room smarter? โ€ข how curious are they? โ€ข Do they ask good questions? โ€ข How do they treat failure? Personal and organizational

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Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx11:04:24

Right! Going from where we are starting, remember that the context is that all build activity is outsourced, and will mostly continue to be.

Roman Lublinski (Delivery Manager at EPAM)10:04:09

Ping me for 350 cloud developers - we can help with that!

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Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)10:04:18

Iโ€™d love to chat about that DevEx book and what need to be in it. I have a pipeline of ideas and would love to validate them

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Claude Ampigny10:04:44

Let's chat on Gather Matt @matthew.cobby

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Akis Sklavounakis10:04:32

Everyone seems to be hiring right now. Demand is strong for the right skills. The media hype on layoffs is misguiding.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:33

DevEx for Cats!!

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Olivier Jacques - AWS - DevEx10:04:03

Cloud Adopting Teams !- ๐Ÿฑ

Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:03

Time to head to #C021DDYDCFQ

Sam Yeats10:04:08

Iโ€™m stuck in a stairwell in gather!

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Sam Yeats10:04:27

ah - hold g to walk through

Toli10:04:57

What is the power defined as? And why is skills and ops model (and not architecture) in the power?

Claude Ampigny10:04:22

The power it our acceleration factor. And improving the Builder Experience (aka DevEx) as actually a very high impact on our velocity. Architecture is not part of the power because the Builder Experience (aka DevEx) as no impact on it.

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Piotr Papros10:04:59

Can anyone share the Gather link? Thank you !

Jaz10:04:04

One of the questions I would love to know more from the next two days is how are teams budgeting for their approach? A lot of CFOs I've worked with will drive conversations around "what features are we going to get and how long is it going to take to delivery them based on a set investment". I feel like that's at the root of driving teams to work in the wrong way. Pushing back usually elicits the response of "how can you run a business if you don't know what you are going to deliver". Would love to know others experiences, whether they've encountered the same and how they've approached these conversations.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:44

moving to a capacity funding model can be helpful - Mik's book on project to product is a good place to start as well - it is a deep topic but happy to chat if you want to share stories / thinking

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Jaz10:04:14

Love that book

Andy Sturrock11:04:34

At Atom Bank we have basically a fixed cost for Technology that we (exec team and board) decide on a yearly basis. So we still get asked "when will the new savings product be ready for launch" (which is totally reasonable) but it's much more a capacity funding model as per Chris above than project based funding. Then it's my job to ensure we maximise the output/outcomes (new features/products/etc) we get from the input cost.

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Joachim11:04:53

Transformed by Marty Cagan discusses objections by different groups of stakeholders/leaders as well. Shifting to a capacity based model in combination with lean portfolio management and a product-centric/discovery-driven approach can work. Variations of the question 'what is the cost of delivering the wrong things' can lead to interesting conversations.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:06

another hack is to crate transparency on just how made up / useless time booking on activities can be (in extreme cases) I remember standing in a room with the CFO for our tech area (former employer) and telling them I had to book time against 10 different projects and I wasn't working on anything of them and the number of people with the same situation basically created a bit of a mind blown type moment.. accountants / financial people love precision and accuracy, I leveraged that to say we have precise data but none of it is accurate as people dont book time (internally) for any meaningful reason other than because they are told too

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:37

if you use that to drive your internal billing and allocation that can drastically impact the defensibility of the finance department e.g. why am I being charged internally for project xyz ..

Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:18

capitalisation of SW assets is another area to look for opportunities too in terms of depreciation, amortisation etc.. lots of reg levels to play with

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Andy Sturrock11:04:46

Thankfully we have a great CFO who says it's Finance's job to worry about Capex/Opex etc and that we should focus on building great tech for our customers.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:50

I can also connect you with the former CFO I worked with if you want to connect your CFO

Joachim11:04:24

There is a useful case study on Capex/Opex automation in 'Product Operations' to see how a public US company operationalized that.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:56

ah good point, that is the book Mellisa Perri co authored right?

Joachim11:04:31

Yep, that's the one.

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting10:04:27

โ„น๏ธ I see a lot of people stuck at the staircase. Please press G to become a ghost and pass the bottleneck.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)10:04:12

@alexb is there a way to make Ghost mode the default, so one can pass thru bodies without needing to press the G key?

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting10:04:11

it isnโ€™t possible. Itโ€™s a โ€œworkaroundโ€ in GT bcz when youโ€™re a ghost you canโ€™t interact with the other people.

Alex (IT Revolution, Conference Staff)10:04:53

^^ if stuck in Gather, hold "G" to move!

Slackbot10:04:07

Reminder: The talks are starting again in 5 minutes. Start navigating your way back to your browser. https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F06V49GSELX/timer.png

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:04:31

๐ŸŽ‰ Up next is @mili.orucevic, Chief Software Quality Engineer, and Alin Iacob โ€” Cloud Architect, from Visma Software International, here to present: How We Are Wiring Winning Organizations In Visma. They'll be talking about their grand journey that theyโ€™ve been on since 2015 to enable greatness in their organization, and better serve their customers.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:38

Ten years can go by fast!!! โ€œin 2015, we had lots of silosโ€. So familiar!

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Luca Ingianni10:04:14

I'm reminded of the "trap of the middle" we talked about earlier

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:02

most definitely. Its so important to break down org structure and silo'd incentives and align on common outcomes, horizontal thinking, and leaning into the diversity of skills/experiences that each person/function bring

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:02

I love these depictions of Dev vs. Ops โ€” what was amazing working on โ€œWiring the Winning Organizationโ€ was that the same dynamics exist in almost every organization in every domain in every phase of value creation. ๐Ÿ˜† In pharmaceutical development, you see the same dynamic between chemists and molecular biologists and supply chain. In โ€œTeam of Teams,โ€ we saw the same dynamic between intelligence agencies and military services. cc @laura507 @tom.baker

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:41

And @lucas.rettig talked about this two years ago in supply chain, and the WAM vs. WOM. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:29

I'm about to attend our WAMWOM (weekly action meeting vs weekly operations meeting - now 1 meeting) in 2 hours!

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)10:04:48

from 6x/year to 42x/month! ๐Ÿคฏ

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)10:04:28

thatโ€™s a 84x increase in deploy frequency ๐Ÿ™Œ

Bernard Voos (FedEx)10:04:54

Love โ€œThis is the wayโ€ @mili.orucevic! Definitely stealing that!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:34

A first from @mili.orucevic and Alin โ€” switching off screen shares!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:39

Interesting! Slowification help especially with the non-functional requirements!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:39

More surprising and wonderful Slowification practices โ€” but also building connections and relationships. Very nice.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:00

So interesting on the prominence of architecture groups today!

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Luciano Visentin11:04:02

Go slower to go faster

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Leo Epstein16:04:31

Same as with skiing moguls, slow is smooth and smooth is fast ๐Ÿ˜Ž

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:05

โ€ฆand then amplify!

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Joachim11:04:19

I am curious - who is using continuous discovery techniques - e.g., opportunity solution trees, assumption mapping?

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Alin Iacob11:04:05

I've seen a few teams using Wardley maps, but not sure how 'continuous' that was

Joachim11:04:12

I am struggling with Wardley maps. I am still on Mount Stupid concerning them. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:01

check out learn wardley mapping from Ben Mosier - he's got great stuff ill share a link https://learnwardleymapping.com/

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Luca Ingianni11:04:08

How's the view from up there, @joachimsammer? ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Stephen Thomas11:04:42

What comes to mind, is are you including in your discovery techniques Outcome Hypotheses to validate and learn from your โ€œdiscoveriesโ€ and assumptions?

Steven Knopf11:04:20

Hi @mili.orucevic. Has the VATP Testing Capability Assessment been published anywhere?

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Mili Orucevic11:04:49

Hi @steven.knopf - no, all of our assessments are internal and only available to the Visma companies for the moment. But a great question and something for us to consider, open sourcing it ๐Ÿ’ก

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Phil Parker (Equal Experts)11:04:15

The London Watch Party in the centre of the city. โค๏ธ

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:32

Wow, check out that trend on the bottom. Amazing, @mili.orucevic!

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Rob Park11:04:11

Cool. Curious, how are the delivery metrics โ€œaveragesโ€ (vs. counts)?

Alin Iacob11:04:29

for deployment frequency that's shown here, we're aggregating data across 3-4 years, from around 140 teams

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:06

@mili.orucevic When Alin says, โ€œdiscussion with the Boardโ€ โ€” which board is that? Board of Directors?

Mili Orucevic11:04:53

Yes, that is the board of directors of the different companies we have in Visma.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:09

โ€œmore freq deployment ---> FASTER ARR GROWTHโ€. (!!!!) ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ

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Luca Ingianni11:04:25

I'm extremely happy to see empirical data on this, because people frequently push back on the notion, and more arguments are very welcome.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:36

I have seen that time and time again particularly for internal products / applications.. e.g. we can only update the general ledger once a quarter because we cannot change too quickly..

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Luca Ingianni11:04:27

I mean, I get the hesitation, but it comes from a wrong place.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:06

Has this been published? This is AMAZING!!!

Chris Leeworthy11:04:45

@luca I think itโ€™s partly because with old methods higher speed tended to mean less control and less safety which made businesses wary

Luca Ingianni11:04:16

@chris.leeworthy507 And it did in fact mean higher risk I think, because that slow cadence was really the maximum the organisation could safely achieve with the practices that were in place. Now the practices (and hence the risk profile) have changed, but the sentiments haven't kept up

Mili Orucevic11:04:05

More frequent changes means โ€ข Less risk (only 1-2 changes at the time, instead of 500 changes ๐Ÿคฏ) โ€ข More feedback from users / customers --> Easier to adjust and happier customers โ€ข Low change friction - means your delivery pipeline is most likely highly automated

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Mili Orucevic11:04:30

There are so many aspects that one could discuss and include here ๐Ÿ˜„

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Luca Ingianni11:04:53

If you ever write those many aspects up or present them, I'd love to get a heads up, @mili.orucevic

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Dave Watson - Sainsburyโ€™s11:04:52

What type of people/roles make up the enterprise tribe?

Mili Orucevic11:04:34

@dave.watson are you referring to the people supporting the teams, with the different programs?

Chris Leeworthy11:04:30

Do you ever struggle getting team buy in at the start of the process?

Mili Orucevic11:04:45

Yes, of course ๐Ÿ˜„ For some teams it might be overwhelming in the beginning, as Alin mentioned, things that are f.ex. mentioned, "why should we do all of this"/"do we need to do everything?" - but with so many learning and successes from other teams, one is usually convinced - but keep in mind it is not mandated to go all the way to the top of the mountain - some teams can not achieve that either, but they can get a lot of value just doing the security and architecture & technology program.

Chris Leeworthy11:04:11

Thank you. I like that flexibility.

Mili Orucevic11:04:05

Great question, thank you for that ๐Ÿ™

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:49

I'd like to propose an alternative title for "Wiring the Winning Organization" based on personal experience, this talk, and others we're hearing to "How to Align and Get Sh*t Done Better and Faster"

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:22

isn't that a different version of better value, sooner, safer and happier ๐Ÿ˜‰

Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)11:04:15

Where are the links on the second last side posted?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:04:45

โœจ Let's welcome @barbara.arnst, Transformation Leader - Organization Designer at Telenet, one of Belgium's leading telecommunication providers. She's here to present, ReWiring the TelCo Operating Model: Learnings from Telenet.

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Will Faithfull (CEO, ExaDev)11:04:55

That was great. With such things we have to remain mindful of Goodhart's law. "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)11:04:10

@genek looking forward to follow up on citations

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:36

About Telenet, from @barbara.arnst

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:55

โ€ฆah, the Spotify model trapโ€ฆ. โ€œBoy, we jumped on that ship, brought in consultants, built blueprints, etcโ€ฆโ€œ. Shifted people into chapter, tribes, etc. โ€œtwo years later, we took stock of where we were.โ€ THIS IS AMAZINGโ€ฆ. can you guess what comes next?

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Luciano Visentin11:04:54

Copying a recipe doesnโ€™t make you a Michelin Star Chef

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:32

โ€ข more dependencies โ€ข frustrations โ€ข simple changes required coordination with 30+ teams

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Vlad Ukis08:04:34

30+ teams - this is craaazy ๐Ÿ™‚

Akis Sklavounakis11:04:43

We've seen this WAY too many times.

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Luca Ingianni11:04:17

Yeah, and the disillusionment is so frequent

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Gerald Benischke11:04:40

I was in a meeting to discuss a project plan to plug in a network cable the other day. I feel this @barbara.arnst

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:03

is that how organisations get wired?

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Gerald Benischke11:04:34

Iโ€™m just sowing the seeds for my ETLS submission next year ;-)

Akis Sklavounakis11:04:27

And it's a shame, because agile is a great way to work and deliver.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:47

very true but people conflate doing agile (the processes) as the goal vs learning, feedback loops, customer / business value etc.. it is very alluring to buy into a "model" because look so many docs and nice words.. but orgs need to learn for themselves that works and is unique to their context.. (sorry soap box topic ๐Ÿ™‚ )

Luciano Visentin11:04:39

Start with the customer, start with the value ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘

Luca Ingianni11:04:50

Easy to say, difficult to actually do. Sometimes I make an exercise in trainings, asking people to describe how they provide value. Invariably I get back a list of activities ("I reboot servers") instead of a list of goals ("I ensure the system is avaliable") That way of thinking really needs to be exercised before it solidifoes in minds

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Luciano Visentin11:04:34

Completely agreeโ€ฆ you shouldnโ€™t do it if you donโ€™t know how it will add value to the customer The Power of โ€˜Whyโ€™

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:40

"customer centricity > cost" so good. do the right then, then do it better, not the other way around

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:11

Iโ€™ve seen firsthand now the impact of enterprise-wide reshuffling people at massive scale to โ€œimplement the Spotify modelโ€, often triggered by external consultants. Iโ€™m in awe of the chaos and destabilizing effects of it. This will surely be one of the themes in Vegas later thisyear.

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Stephen Thomas11:04:53

I like the question: Where is our energy going? Is it to customer results? Forgot the alternative she mentioned, probably due to PTSD

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:21

(This programming focus was inspired by seeing this happen 3 times last year, and then triggered by seeing Barbaraโ€™s presentation last yearโ€ฆ)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:50

โ€œCIO function no longer exists โ€” that role has been distributed into the business unitsโ€

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:54

this is the type of partnership and federation that is needed to bring IT and Business (or product) together and co-own the outcomes

Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:35

this is how to remove the us and them language and build true partnership

Matthew Pickles11:04:09

This really looks like what you would need to take away from implementing Agile at an Enterprise scale!

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Marcin Burakowski (Evergo, AIOps)11:04:22

I wonder what about human incentives in this mind-set shift? It is not easy to push people from Managing to Owning.

Piotr Papros12:04:07

czeล›ฤ‡ Marcin! it's all about the culture, set of values and beliefs the team works by, and the leadership profile that drives the company, ... once there culture, strategy, and mindset align, people start to choose the better solution (pull) over needing to be told what to do next (push)... and along the way, we can, of course, show that technology and operating model changes make us efficient and effective...

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James Heggs11:04:14

I think the shame around the Spotify model is in part related to how we naturally reduce a problem down to something - reducing the problem to it being "the Spotify model" in a way unfairly discredits the ideas shared by Spotify in those videos. Potentially more of the problem is related to the context and execution and not the model/ideas itself. Maybe I'm a laggard but if I detract the actual execution, the ideas on how humans interact and what environments might be productive - alignment and autonomy still really resonate with me and environments requiring creative brain work Guess I still relate it all to Dan Pinks Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:29

For sure โ€” itโ€™s not the Spotify modelโ€ฆ itโ€™s how (often consultants) sell an idea, and then execute it. In fact, Iโ€™ve started thinking of this as โ€œFinding ways to fix problems caused by external consultants coming in and wrecking my entire organizationโ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:43

Does that resonate with you, @barbara.arnst?

Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:48

it resonates with me @genek from my time at a certain large Swiss bank

Luca Ingianni11:04:17

the Spotify nomenclature (tribes etc) is so pervasive with my corporate clients now, frequently without a clear understanding of its background

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Barbara Arnst12:04:21

Resonates! Spotify ideas are solid, but โ€œblindlyโ€ copying without enough context and deep understanding will result in disappointment. I am so glad our company went thru that learning curve - without the pain we wouldnโ€™t be where we are now. Consultants can play a tricky role in this - they are often pushed for quick/shiny result stories - resulting in the โ€œold wine new bottleโ€ฆโ€.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)11:04:13

No more IT department - federated model

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:14

โ€œLeaders as active architects of the systemโ€

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:01

i think iโ€™ve heard or read that somewhere beforeโ€ฆ :thinking_face: ๐Ÿ˜‰ #C058GHCP3FS

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:43

โ€œmore than just being visionary on business side โ€” but also understand constraints, enable, etcโ€ฆโ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:41

โ€œOur CEO is a believer โ€” it brings tech and business togetherโ€

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Mili Orucevic11:04:57

Love the mountain โ›ฐ๏ธ @barbara.arnst

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:25

โ€œslowification and transformation now become part of BAUโ€

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Akis Sklavounakis11:04:43

No end to a transformation - it's a journey to continuous improvement!

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)11:04:48

Totally agree, as a "result" of the transformation you should have an organization that is able to adjust to the ever changing needs of the industry. Processes and technologies and constant imporvement

Akis Sklavounakis11:04:23

If you get a consultant that promises to complete a transformation in 18 months, run...

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:53

โ€œbudgeting time for operating model improvementsโ€ ๐Ÿ™Œ

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Vlad Ukis08:04:19

easier said than done - how much time to budget for this?

Orla Codyre11:04:57

Trying to articulate issues a previous company were having with the spotify model, I found this which has some excellent points and reflections in it (written by an ex-spotify person) https://www.jeremiahlee.com/posts/failed-squad-goals/

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)11:04:08

what does BAU stand for? business as usual maybe?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:11

Quote from their CEO: โ€œโ€I firmly believe we are in a strong position now, not only in terms of clarity of where we want to go to, but also in how we will get there. Our Operating Model empowers our Tribe leads with all the means to be successful and deliver their ambitious customer promises. They can also fluidly adapt where needed, ensuring sustained success of the model.โ€ John Porter, CEO Telenet

Luca Ingianni11:04:15

There are several pervasive terms that I find quite unfortunate because of their connotations, "Transformation" is one of them (because it implies an achievable end state). Another one, BTW, is "Value Stream", because it implicitly seems to reject feedback (since streams are directed strictly downstream)

Luca Ingianni11:04:18

And then I need to expend a lot of effort to try to uncover and correct those unspoken implications

Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:04:56

:flag-au: Next up, @sam793, Founder & CEO, TeamForm, here to present: A Benchmark Of How Hundreds of Organizations Are Wired and Mis-wired. He's here to discuss common patterns and configurations, and how nearly all organizations are missing some piece of critical โ€œwiring.โ€ He'll talk about these patterns, and what leaders can do about it.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:21

what could go wrong?

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Dave Watson - Sainsburyโ€™s11:04:48

@barbara.arnst - that was really interesting. What sort of roles and mindsets work well in your enterprise tribes?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:49

OMG. โ€œLetโ€™s start with a scenario.. Imagine youโ€™re in an organisation where light switches are wired to the fire alarm.โ€ ๐Ÿ˜†

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Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)11:04:13

How often does this come down to: "The lamp on my desk doesn't trigger the fire alarm, so why should I fix it?"

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Chris Leeworthy11:04:59

sub paragraph 5 ๐Ÿ˜„

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Dave McKerral11:04:01

Learnt helplessness ๐Ÿ‘Œ:skin-tone-2:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:02

โ€œskilled security engineer billing time to 100+ projects to ensure she keeps fundingโ€

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Luca Ingianni11:04:54

Those slides are quite fascinating

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:08

One starts thinking, โ€œsomething is very wrong hereโ€ฆโ€

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)11:04:32

I think I worked for that companyโ€ฆ.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:53

I think we all have at some point

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:49

I give gratitude every one of these events that booking time to project codes is not something that is part of my company's DNA anymore

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:54

โ€œ80% of orgs have cross-functional teams: it is a fundamental way we create value.โ€ And yet, the only way theyโ€™re recorded is in a spreadsheet.

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:58

funnyโ€ฆ and sadโ€ฆ because itโ€™s true

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Matthew Pickles11:04:32

Yes, but did you make it shareable in Sharepoint?

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:11

yesโ€ฆ because the excel file is serving as a database for other processes and applications

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Sam Yeats11:04:22

๐Ÿ™ Would love your participation needed: If i can ask you to jump into this link or scan this QR code https://www.menti.com/alxp9w1yrmf1

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:27

The work of the well-meaning Excel craftsman. Might indicate a cause or contributor to poor-wiring.

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:46

nothing can go wrong with the vba code pulling from those db2 sources in the back

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Lloyd P11:04:28

Always skeeved out by scanning QRs ๐Ÿ˜…

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:51

These live histogram curves are awesome!

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Luca Ingianni11:04:12

Better than I thought TBH

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:33

This was great โ€” this picture was from the ETLS Forum here in Portland. It was such a wonderful cross-section of orgs!

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Stephen Thomas11:04:53

Shared understanding! What a concept ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:02

As information theory teaches us: we measure success of communications by the RECEIVER.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:34

top down = broadcast (one way) rather than communication (two way)

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Matthew Pickles11:04:47

Right on the money, yet again!

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:05

โ€œThe single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken placeโ€ โ€” George Bernard Shaw

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:44

โ€œprocesses and systems havenโ€™t been rewiredโ€

Stephen Thomas11:04:52

What prevents shared understanding? - too many buzzwords - lack of playback to ensure shared understanding - fear of looking stupid (I am stupid, I gave up trying to hide it) - what else?

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James Heggs11:04:37

Assumption maybe? Would that be related to playback

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Luca Ingianni11:04:53

Lack of interest, in many cases. ("This is of no relevance to me")

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:21

@luca that is often the case when things are imposed on you rather than you contribute to the approach / solution etc.. (IMO)

Stephen Thomas11:04:12

If there is lack of interest, perhaps they should use the law of two feet and leave the meeting. I donโ€™t have a problem with that, in fact it would reduce time wasted in meetings

Luca Ingianni11:04:21

But also: I've observed too many transformations where top management somehow concluded that while they endorsed it, it didn't concern tehm

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Nigel Budd11:04:05

Lack of shared purpose

Luca Ingianni11:04:15

@stevesargon maybe lack of interest isn't quite the right way of putting it. They didn't realise it was in their own interest to be interested. @nigel.buddโ€™s suggestion of lack of shared purpose feels like a good way of putting it

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george miguel12:04:48

as @sam793 said during the talk, often the problem is that the understanding is both too big for any one person or team, not just organisationally, but in a time/history perspective. we're so busy solving the problem in front of us that it's too much effort to go outward. and even if you did try, our remit os quite narrow, and you start to hit lots of roadblocks without really high-level authority

Nigel Budd12:04:03

I really liked the Pfizer talk that had that high level vision of curing a billion people, that's the kind of vision that you can get behind and see how your team can help reach that goal

Nigel Budd12:04:03

Great blog @george.miguel

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:32

Loved that pic from one the Watch Parties! (Oh, whereโ€™d it go?)

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Akis Sklavounakis11:04:52

Love the GenAI generated images.

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Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:04:50

Great talk @sam793! Good to see you again.

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Mili Orucevic11:04:32

Awesome talk @sam793

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:28

OMG. Itโ€™s so easy to lose track of space and time โ€” I thought we had one more talk before break! Thanks @jeff.gallimore for keeping me on track! ๐Ÿ˜†

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:32

@jeff.gallimore @annp and @mvk842 have a tough job

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Jon Dickinson, Equal Experts11:04:46

Manchester watch party! Ready for lunch ๐Ÿ˜‹ great talks everyone ๐Ÿ‘

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Christian Knuth11:04:57

Often die (Senior) Managers reuse the strategy slides they used for the shareholders / Board / whatever when talking to their teams. And - surprise! surpirse! - this is not necessarily a language the teams do understand!

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Jaz Blakeston-Petch11:04:03

@jeff.gallimore what Lego build are you most proud of? ๐Ÿ˜€

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)12:04:17

@jaz.blakeston-petch original millennium falcon ucs set from 2005. my wife got it for me a few years ago. since it was used, it had the instructions, but not the numbered bags. so sorting through 5000 piecesโ€ฆ ๐Ÿคฏ and itโ€™s the millennium falcon. and the largest set at the time it was released.

Neil Moore11:04:00

Manchester UK watch party!

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Eugene Chung12:04:22

Here's the Strategy to Execution Map that @sam793 referenced! Feel free to reach out to me, @chriscombe or Sam and we'll gladly help you work through it or better yet, run it as a team workshop ๐Ÿ™ https://miro.com/miroverse/strategy-to-execution-map/

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Chris Combe at TeamForm12:04:29

we'd love to talk and learn!

Jaz Blakeston-Petch06:04:02

Thanks for sharing this. Super timely for us, will give it a spin

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Chris Combe at TeamForm08:04:05

for extra credit (once you have your first version), you can try to overlay your tooling landscape for some interesting perspectives / layers

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)12:04:11

โ„น๏ธ if you tag a post with a link or useful resource with the ๐Ÿ”– emoji, it sends that post to #C04ED43AQAC

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Sam Yeats12:04:54

Thanks for all the responses to the survey so far, you can see the results here: https://www.mentimeter.com/app/presentation/almat2m8synf5u8eufcpdhk7dnau6tq2 Itโ€™s not too late if you missed out - https://www.menti.com/alxp9w1yrmf1 Having fun in https://app.gather.town/app/e2Hj0ENa9FLWluEr/ETLS sharing war stories

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Slackbot12:04:23

Reminder: The talks are starting again in 5 minutes. Start navigating your way back to your browser. https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F06V49GSELX/timer.png

Ann Perry - IT Revolution12:04:35

โšกPlease welcome Stefan Ostwald, Co-Founder & CTO, Parloa and @peter.petrovics, Strategic Advisor, Equal Experts, presenting How Parloa Revolutionized Customer Support with Europeโ€™s Largest GenAI Conversational FAQ. They'll be reporting on launching one of Europeโ€™s largest GenAI-driven conversational FAQ service for a multi-national enterprise, with 50MM customers in 30 countries. They'll talk about major hurdles, including those of โ€œhalluciationsโ€ and privacy concerns, and how they overcame them.

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Stephen Thomas12:04:15

Thank you @sam793 for the convesation.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm12:04:34

congrats on series B Parloa!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:20

โ€œCan I bring my dog on my flight to NYC?โ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:56

The risk of corporate chatbots for customers: https://twitter.com/RealGeneKim/status/1763016504944292294

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:14

What could go wrong? ๐Ÿ˜†

Chris Combe at TeamForm12:04:43

indeed ๐Ÿ˜‰ I suspect it will get worse before it gets better

Chris Combe at TeamForm12:04:53

Gen AI could do with a bit of slow-ification

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:57

Things that can go wrong โ€”

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:02

On the problem of LLM confabulations โ€” Iโ€™m so delighted that Dr. Ethan Mollick is talking on some of this in the next session!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:45

โ€ฆand Dr. @mik will talk tomorrow about how prompts actually couple us to LLM, which can massively increase switching costs, during a period when we want to maximize optionality! (Which @internettitan will talk about tomorrow as well!)

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:32

conversational designers ๐Ÿ’ก

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Stephen Thomas13:04:48

There is a lack of standard metrics/benchmarks to measure how the behavior of AI/ML. Some attempts https://github.com/mlcommons/modelgauge https://github.com/mlcommons/modelbench

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:10

โ€œyou cannot rely 100% on automated labellingโ€

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:45

indeed. without good controls and guardrails (including humans), you get stuff like thisโ€ฆ Facebook: two chatbots developed their own language https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/facebook-artificial-intelligence-ai-chatbot-new-language-research-openai-google-a7869706.html

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:18

Lots of new sociotechnical wiring required to ensure good outcomes โ€” weโ€™re beyond CI/CD and production telemetry.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:54

wayyyyy beyondโ€ฆ so many new elements and paths with this stuff

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:03

generative AI generating background noise to seem less fake.. so the customer doesn't think they are talking to a bot.. (when they are) wow some uncanny valley stuff going on

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Owen13:04:47

Agree, Iโ€™d rather be transparent and tell the customer theyโ€™re talking to a bot personally

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Peter Petrovics13:04:23

Agree ๐Ÿ’ฏ, we are stating in welcome message it's an AI bot. There is still a lot learn what works well for Call Experience (CX) with more and more advanced bots (and more human sounding voices). Journey for providers and callers too. Though I think we are not too far from the point where it will be difficult to spot if I'm talking to a human or AI Anyway, the purpose of background sounds for us is not to "pretend" it's a human but indicate we are there -total silence actually sounds very weird. you feel the call hang up or the bot stuck.

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Matthew Pickles13:04:33

Just looking... bringing up the documentation... sorry,the systems working a bit slow today...

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Matthew Pickles13:04:24

Full disclosure: that actually was me, when I did that job, hahaha.

Chris Leeworthy13:04:50

actually I donโ€™t want it to pretend to be human, that seems more uncanny

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Matthew Pickles13:04:39

That is a good point!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:46

@peter.petrovics How much did you have to reorg dev, MLops, data science, etc, to do all this? What was biggest surprise?

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Peter Petrovics13:04:37

We ramped up a team focused on this, almost greenfield (apart from call infra and a few other basic platform building blocks). The team started small but continuously growing with embedded data science etc. gurus. As we grow we are gradually "splitting" out platform / domain teams . Tbh I can't see delivering this much in such a short time doing it with an existing rigid team structure. As for biggest surprise: Good surprise: LLM capabilities still, up to this day can be jaw dropping, how well it can handle complex scenarios Bad surprise: maybe the level of LLM flakiness. Makes tuning, testing and evals very challenging

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:04:13

๐Ÿซ And now, a special welcome to Dr. Ethan Mollick, Associate Professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and author of https://www.amazon.com/Co-Intelligence-Living-Working-Ethan-Mollick/dp/059371671X.

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Alex (IT Revolution, Conference Staff)13:04:49

NICE BOARD GAME STACK

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:16

oh interesting problem - seems like a lack of safety if people are doing that behaviourally

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)13:04:48

Always enjoy these deep dive chats with @genek ๐Ÿ˜Š

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:02

๐Ÿ’ก trendsโ€ฆ โ€ข specialized AI devices โ€ข large context windows โ€ข agents

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Lloyd Passingham (Arbor Education)13:04:32

"Wrote the policy to ban ChatGPT but used ChatGPT to do it"

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Stephen Thomas13:04:21

We wonโ€™t lose our jobs to AI, we will lose our jobs to people who know how to use AI (and how NOT to use it)

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Stephen Thomas13:04:29

โ€œincentives eat everything continuouslyโ€ - @jonathansmart1

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:09

'Luddites' have been worried about losing jobs to technology for a long time! Early 1800s in England, smashing up looms. "Mill and factory owners took to shooting protestors"! Glad that doesn't happen now.

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Chris Leeworthy13:04:55

As a result we have no mills and little manufacturing left in the country, not entirely sure thats a win.

Stephen Thomas13:04:52

Have you looked at the quality of the documents we have? Will loading lots of low quality docs help or hinder?

Patrick Debois13:04:11

Where can we listen/read on that "Champs?" session ?

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Stephen Thomas13:04:50

Or IT blocks people from using it, until they have made it โ€œsafe to useโ€ and they loaded all the proper docs and tuned it.

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Stephen Thomas13:04:22

And we need to put the models in the hands of Domain experts not just IT!!! (Sorry ranting here)

Patrick Debois13:04:02

We call that the "innovation tax" - it's expensive now and will change a lot, but we understand it better because we "worked" it

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Patrick Debois13:04:58

Thank you for all your sharing Ethan - it's how we get better as an industry !

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)13:04:32

Help decide where things are going by publicly sharing early successes

Matthew Pickles13:04:06

I heard from a procurement manager that said all his suppliers were saying how quickly ChatGPT helped them make their tenders and the procurement manager, yes but you're causing me to have to make sure it's rewritten correctly for presentation. What's a good way to handle this sort of situation?

Nick Eggleston (free radical)13:04:52

Fast fun and focused

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:04:19

โœจ Next up, @jpetoff, Director, Google Cloud Platform and Technical Infrastructure Education. She will talk about what the Google SRE organization is doing to create a new talent pipeline, focusing on universities and new engineers.

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Neil Moore13:04:03

Awesome. Just bought the book...

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)13:04:04

Welcome @jpetoff ๐Ÿ˜Š

Nick Eggleston (free radical)13:04:45

Live from the Lisbon watch party! ๐ŸŽ‰

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:36

PS: I loved Dr. Ethan Mollickโ€™s book โ€” I think itโ€™s such a valuable book for non-technologists and technologists alike.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:54

just bought a copy - can't wait to read

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:06

on people being capable SREs without decades of experience? Impossible, right? ๐Ÿ˜† @jpetoff

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Stephen Thomas13:04:20

Its not just Education failing to properly educate SREโ€™s The same also applies to CS in general.

Stephen Thomas13:04:27

Apprenticeships!!! @jaclyn.damiano Project Athena

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:33

that StackOverflow survey I mentioned: Source: 2019 StackOverflow Developer Survey: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#key-results

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Matthew Pickles13:04:26

@jpetoff, when do you think Corporate outreach should start? Is it just from a grad level onwards?

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Jennifer Petoff14:04:34

@matt.pickles I think primary and secondary school outreach is also very important to keep people interested in Tech in general, but 3rd level (uni) is the right time to think about specialization in an area like SRE. Also, our program was driven by volunteers so it was important to scope it carefully (focus on uni outreach) vs spreading ourselves too thin

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Matthew Pickles14:04:26

@jpetoff, I admit that's probably a better answer than I was expecting, so within the cohort of people who have already decided on a tech career you encourage them to look at an SRE career, that's quite understandable.

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Kareen Kircher13:04:24

@jpetoff So what about applying the same approach to career changers, people who took career breaks for caregiving, raising kids, etc? There's already a pipeline for students, and there's nothing wrong with refining that pipeline. But perhaps expand that pipeline to include people who are not new grads but are willing to learn something new.

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Dave McKerral13:04:53

cc @james.heggs

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:12

i bet @forrestbrazeal has something to say about thisโ€ฆ https://cloudresumechallenge.dev/

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Kareen Kircher14:04:28

@dave367, thanks for tagging him.

Jennifer Petoff14:04:45

I agree that this is also important. We are doing some work in this space (e.g., we piloted an SRE fellowship with Major League Hacking) and are currently running a course on SRE with Uplimit that tends to attract more career changers.

Jennifer Petoff14:04:28

I bet he does! ๐Ÿ™Œ

Kareen Kircher14:04:37

@jeff.gallimore, thanks for sharing the resource from @forrestbrazeal. Will definitely check them out. In the same spirit, I wrote this book here (https://a.co/d/3np4sw7) 6 years ago to share some tips as well for navigating careers challenges.

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Kareen Kircher14:04:30

@jpetoff, good to hear that you are working in this space. This needs more visibility than the opportunities for students. Ageism and other isms are real in IT and elsewhere. I find that there are plenty of people who don't necessarily have a tech background, but their disposition to learn, and their parallel experience in business makes them good candidates for tech work.

Jennifer Petoff14:04:54

I gave a talk at GDG Galway recently which was sponsored by Genesys. I got to do a career chat with their interns while I was in town. I was really impressed with Genesys' commitment to bringing in interns from non traditional backgrounds. In this case, they had a strong pipeline via a program an NUI Galway. I met a former hairdresser, clerk at the UN, and more. So inspiring to see how they were thriving.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:36

@jpetoff OMG. I WANT TO DO AN INTERNSHIP!!!!

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Jennifer Petoff14:04:20

ALL the placements!

Stephen Thomas13:04:49

@kareen Good point. Also career changers, who change within the same company already have a head start based on Domain knowledge. Example: A Bank, had downsized some folks and created a Project Athena type approach to train them as developers. The advantage being they already knew the business and the customers.

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Kareen Kircher13:04:38

@stevesargon, yes, this is a good approach to repurposing the skills and interests of people. It's good for the company to improve operations, as well as bring along the people who helped them get to that level in the first place.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:25

โ€œall roads lead to SRE eventuallyโ€ :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:33

Now at Disney!! cc @jason.cox @hynespd

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Rebecca Davis13:04:59

I love the focus on building positive ripple effects in any company. Even if not staying at Google the positivity still spreads!

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:31

where could we get one of those blue rainbow unicorn shirts?

Jennifer Petoff14:04:31

Join Google and take our internal SRE EDU Orientation program ๐Ÿ˜Ž. How cool is it that I lead a program with a rainbow farting unicorn (RFU) as a logo?!

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)14:04:33

โ€œRFUโ€ :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Jennifer Petoff14:04:48

Gotta have a TLA (three letter acronym) to give it that extra bit of corporate cred :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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George Murage13:04:57

Wowโ€ฆ this is so amazing how @jpetoff has solved for growing SRE skills

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:04:50

:satellite_antenna: Please welcome @akashrajendra_venteka and @qiheme, both first-time engineering managers from Comcast. They'll talk about why they decided to become a people manager, the challenges and learnings making this transition, and the resources they drew upon.

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Akash Rajendra Ventekar - Comcast14:04:31

Thanks a lot for your support throughout! @annp @alexb @genek! Couldn't do it without you!!!

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Stephen Thomas13:04:48

Go @qiheme

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Quincy Iheme - Comcast14:04:03

@stevesargon it's so good to hear from you!!!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)13:04:01

Fan moment!!!

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Sander Brienen13:04:08

@genek I love how you have organised your books by color. ๐Ÿ“š ๐ŸŒˆ My sister does the same ๐Ÿ˜†

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:11

Make no mistake, the colored sorting of books is because of my boss, @mvk842 โ€” when she said that she wanted to do this, I almost fainted. It just seemed so improper and just isnโ€™t done!!! ๐Ÿ˜†

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting14:04:05

@genek I guess your wife and mine share the same addiction ๐Ÿ˜„ Mine didnโ€™t stop at the bookshelf in the living room, but she moved forward to organise by color all my Italian suites, ties and shirts. :man-facepalming:

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)14:04:59

Nothing wrong with a bit of beauty and order in the worldโ€ฆ ๐Ÿ˜

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Steve Smith (VP, Equal Experts)13:04:07

If you're at the London watch party, there's a book stand outside the auditorium! ๐Ÿ“š

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:47

Said no one ever: โ€œI missing writing YAML config files.โ€ ๐Ÿ˜† But flow state from building things is amazing and real. cc @qiheme

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Rebecca Davis13:04:57

So key to have a pathway back to IC! That's great that Comcast doesn't force you into a one and only progression path. Have to find the right path for delivering joy!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:09

โ€œI refrain from opining on PRs, because I think Iโ€™ll slow down the process. So I reserve that to the guild meetings.โ€ @akashrajendra_venteka

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Rebecca Davis14:04:40

"it's just a question" not a command.... So simple yet so easy to not make clear.

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Matthew Pickles14:04:25

Step away from the workstation for lunch, definitely good advice!

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Luciano Visentin14:04:53

โ€œTake care of yourselfโ€โ€ฆ love this !

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:22

Fascinating advice from @akashrajendra_venteka โ€” without a doubt, the worst health I had in my entire life by was during my first couple of years of people-management.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:29

What was your health practice changes and journey?

Matthew Pickles14:04:07

@qiheme what would you say are the best ways and best balance between learning new leadership skills and keeping up to date technically?

Quincy Iheme - Comcast18:04:38

This is a tough one because this was a conclusion I came to with my own personal experience. For me, it was being vigilant in understanding as much about the technology as I could, without actually writing it. I would personally be a part of most all architecture meetings for features, along with peeking in at the code whenever I could. There's definitely a point where you realize you don't know everything (In which case I leaned in on my engineers) and I focused on what I needed to know to guide my team and relay important information to stakeholders.

Matthew Pickles08:04:13

Thank you @qiheme for the honest answer, in reality that's pretty much as I imagined it would be but good to hear it from someone with the life experience.

Vlad Ukis10:04:37

This is definitely the way - stay technical without being hands-on if there is no time for being hands-on.

Amul - Northcoders14:04:11

Did you ever lead "mob programming" sessions so that your teams could learn by your best practices and experiences rather than with a purely advisory/guidance approach? @akashrajendra_venteka

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Akash Rajendra Ventekar - Comcast14:04:44

Yes, its a working session! As a technical lead, I used to facilitate 30 minute guild meetings (we used to call them 'Council of Elrond') where we have gone through software books, best practices, engineering blogs, etc. together for the first 20 minutes and reserve 10 minutes at the end for discussion on what were attendees 'Aha moment' or what did they learn from it? Currently, we work on onboarding, ReadMe standardization for github, best practices, etc. We make a lot of decisions on the future of our tech stack and execution of items.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:52

โ€œโ€ฆbecause, last I heard, this is still a technical fieldโ€ฆโ€ said @schmark

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Dave Watson - Sainsburyโ€™s14:04:49

โค๏ธ that feedback is criticalโ€ฆalso how feedback is given and received.

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Amul - Northcoders14:04:04

"Remaining technical" Definitely:+1::skin-tone-5: Every day needs to be a school day, no matter what level of leader you become!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:24

โ€œSkip meetings!โ€ ๐ŸŽ‰

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)14:04:01

maker vs. manager schedule ๐Ÿ’ก โค๏ธ

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Stephen Thomas14:04:39

Corollary to โ€œLeaders are not born, they are madeโ€ โ€œGreat developers are not born, they are madeโ€ Favor Nurture over Nature

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Kareen Kircher14:04:44

@akashrajendra_venteka, great ideas about self-care. Sacrificing your health is not required to show you're devoted. @qiheme, great to hear you made a simple list for what you wanted.

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Neil Moore14:04:31

We are indeed having some awesome discussions over here in Manchester.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:34

Hope you can share some notes/learnings from the watch parties!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:16

As you get more senior, youโ€™re expected to give back to the community

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:26

As uni $ goes up, value prop goes downโ€ฆ so how to reach out to non-traditional potential folksโ€ฆ

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:20

Start out with good literature in [cs] education (@stevesargon)

Slackbot14:04:17

Reminder: The final talks of the day are starting in 5 minutes. Start navigating your way back to your browser. https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F06V49GSELX/timer.png

Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:18

DevOpsDays Zurich talk by former tech recruiter is good, per @jpetoff

Jennifer Petoff14:04:32

I was just thinking, I'm not sure if they recorded the Ignites. I hope that they did because the talk was great.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:38

Welcome back from our break! We are now coming up on our last set of talks on Day 1. I hope you are liking this new live format for the Enterprise Technology Leadership Summit! If you like it, can you me a favor? Can you please post about what itโ€™s been like on LinkedIn, Twitter, or whatever, to let people know what you think, especially if you are enjoying it and finding the conference valuable. Letโ€™s use hashtag #ETLS. You have my genuine and heartfelt thanks!!! https://www.linkedin.com/posts/realgenekim_etls-activity-7188908241756585985-Qoys?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=member_desktop

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:52

Technical problems are easy, people problems are hard (@stevesargon)

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:04:39

๐Ÿšš Next, please welcome Michael Vormittag, Head of SAP Delivery, Architecture, Analytics & CTO Office, Daimler Truck and @marko.klemetti, CTO at Eficode. They will be presenting: How a Major Organizational Shift Initiated a DevOps Transformation at Daimler Truck. They will describe a unified developer platform called The Truck Toolchain (T3), a platform designed to enhance Developer Experience and pave the way for future technical innovations, including GenAI-based tooling.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:52

Great chatting in Gather

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Brian Scott14:04:59

๐Ÿ‘‹:skin-tone-3:Morning all

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:27

Is the spinout like a well funded and experienced startup?

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)14:04:40

shutting things off and consolidatingโ€ฆ this is not trivial.

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Kareen Kircher14:04:49

Amazing indeed!

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)14:04:21

@akashrajendra_venteka and @qiheme From your talk - did you folks have a suggestion or recommendation on the "manager assessment tests"?

Akash Rajendra Ventekar - Comcast16:04:29

I haven't done manager assessment tests. But, I have taken few assessments such as Insights, Birkman and DiSC which was helpful for me to evaluate how I work, how I work with others and where should I make adjustments.

Quincy Iheme - Comcast18:04:27

I have taken Insights and Birkman, both have been eye-opening in understanding more about myself as an individual

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)10:04:15

Ah, interesting. Thank you for the references, I had not ran into Insights or Birkman before! Over the years, I've been in groups that have taken the DiSC assessment, and MTBI, knowing that while each of these approaches have some well documented flaws, the fact that the whole group (15-30 people) took it at the same time, and we had a group discussion afterwards was incredibly valuable. The best tool I found for self-knowledge was from Gallup - called StrengthsFinder. What is a bit missing from that tool would be any indications of "how would person X be as a manager". Certainly anything that could give a person at least a self-evaluation of some amount of current manager capability and future manager capability would be quite valuable. Lastly, I wanted to reference Gretchen Rubin's 4 Tendencies model (Upholders, Questioners, Obligers, Rebels) is another lens to look at how you interact with people.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:05

is it the big 5 (or another one) that is much more science backed.. I've seen MBTI proven as accurate as horoscopes ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Akash Rajendra Ventekar - Comcast17:04:04

Yes, I am looking forward to more assessments. Thanks for the recommendations! Adding MTBI, StrengthsFinder, big5, Gretchen Rubin's 4 Tendencies model to my list!

Matthew Pickles14:04:54

I certainly relate to that and I have seen it!

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Matthew Pickles14:04:28

Project members come and go, they come and gooooo! hahaha

Luciano Visentin14:04:26

How do people tackle the challenge of balancing Team Autonomy with tooling standardisation?

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Joachim14:04:42

Shifting from compliance & cost-driven standardisation to value driven standardisation.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:50

platform engineering (treating platforms as products) --> instead of forcing these platforms, you make them so good and so easy that the alternative is harder / requiring more painful .. also autonomy in enterprise doesn't necessarily mean you can do anything you want - there are always some guide and guard rails.. that is still plenty of room to decide how you build / run

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Leaf (Jessica Roy), MassMutual15:04:43

Indeed. If you have to force people to use the platform that was set up to make their lives easier, something has gone wrong.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:53

@marko.klemetti and Michael: reduction of application landscape by 40% โ€” amazing! Iโ€™m so curious which applications were the most challenging to shut down โ€” and what were you most proud of as a result of doing so. So good!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:06

PS: so interesting how many presentations used AI โ€œtext to imageโ€!!! Iโ€™ve only used it handful of times, and only for personal stuff!

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Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:14

that is something I will be using more in the future too - some great images for sure

Stephen Thomas14:04:31

"AI to development is like Aglie to Waterfall" So that means everyone uses the word "AI" but nobody knows what it means?

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)14:04:15

or โ€“ everyone adapts the definition to what they would like AI to be?

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mrako15:04:20

fantastic addition, thanks! ๐Ÿ˜„

Vlad Ukis10:04:00

every small straightforward algorithm is referred to as an AI today. in some sense, it might be true ๐Ÿ™‚

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:37

Love that Daimler team (@marko.klemetti and Michael) are referencing the Adobe presentation on AI governance coming up from @bscott and @dneff! Shows the commonality of our journeys!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:00

โ€œbig companies tend to build a strong [and often constraining/stifling] safety netโ€

Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:20

safety net or anchor? it is a slippery slope

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Andy Sturrock14:04:44

Need to move from coercive bureaucracy to enabling, as per https://itrevolution.com/product/the-delicate-art-of-bureaucracy

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Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:59

I had Mark in mind ๐Ÿ˜‰ love his stuff

Andy Sturrock15:04:36

One of my favourite authors for sure.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:39

Just out of curious: by show of emojis, how many people are are being given responsibility for rolling out or governing new AI tools?

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Stephen Thomas15:04:25

One thing that's really helping in our case is having a really good lawyer as part of the team

Matthew Pickles15:04:57

One of the best use cases of AI for development I've seen is the linting and correction of standards of a pull request before peer review.

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Matthew Pickles15:04:57

One of the best use cases of AI for development I've seen is the linting and correction of standards of a pull request before peer review.

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Prinay Panday (Software Engineering Manager - Lula)15:04:01

@matt.pickles what are your favourite tools for this?

Matthew Pickles15:04:59

I'm still working on it for my own interest but it would be some kind of copilot and custom prompts/scripts with GitHub actions along with the main Linters for example, EsLint for JavaScript to correct the code.

Vlad Ukis10:04:08

interested in this if you have got more information

Matthew Pickles08:04:08

Sorry for the late reply @vladyslav.ukis but it's not really much more than I said above. it would look something like a copilot/AI assistant(LLM model with the guardrails of the enterprises private environment) coupled with the already existing automation tools such as Github actions (or similar) and Linting tools, the idea would be to keep both the developers original code and the corrected code to provide a learning experience either "physical" or automated within the development tools as a final "coup de grace" for the process. Some links that touch on this are https://docs.github.com/en/actions/automating-builds-and-tests and https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/what-are-github-actions-and-how-can-you-automate-tests-and-slack-notifications/

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Matthew Pickles07:05:39

@vladyslav.ukis, in the time I've been looking to this a GitHub action 'luiyen/llm-code-review' has been released in the GitHub Marketplace which uses the "meta-llama/Llama-2-7b-chat-hf" through HuggingFace. I've also seen other use cases that use llama-2 for similar tasks so it looks like a good base model to start with for prompt engineering and fine-tuning. https://github.com/marketplace/actions/llm-code-review

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:58

how is software development really going to change? wowโ€ฆ thatโ€™s a big - and fun - question to discuss.

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:04:11

:adobe: And now, please welcome the team from Adobe: @bscott, Principal Architect and @dneff, Principal Cloud Architect. They will share their "experiences onboarding hundreds of AI use cases and a process that allowed us to move as fast as a developer with the certainty of a lawyer."

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Nigel Budd15:04:15

Terrific presentation M&M

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Akis Sklavounakis15:04:54

Is Daimler truck still on-prem or on the cloud?

mrako15:04:18

both ๐Ÿ™‚

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:28

balancing responsibility, speed, interest, and risk :juggling: ๐Ÿคฏ

Piotr Papros15:04:30

i think they are underway ...

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Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:03

Macromedia - wow blast from the past

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:23

What an amazing set of AI announcements from Firefly!!!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:34

Like integrating SORA. Wow!!! What a move!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:27

major business units: creative, _, and analytics

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:26

โ€œBased on onboarding experience with finance, legal, security we were appointed ownership of company-wide Al intake in addition to existing responsibilities.โ€

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:05

span of concerns for governance: everyone from finance generating summary content, integrating third party content into our marquee products, tools used by devs. So cool.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:38

โ€œwe want onboarding with AI to be dull and routineโ€ @dneff

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:00

Balance โ€œmaximum libertyโ€ and โ€œmaximum responsibilityโ€ !!!!!

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Akis Sklavounakis15:04:42

Good to see Gartner mentioned here :-)

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:19

i love this framing with the tension โ€” liberty and responsibility

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Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)15:04:31

:robot_face: :robot_face: :robot_face: Regarding the Daimler and Eficode talk: Has anyone here built Retrieval Augmented Systems (RAG) for your Development Value Streams to use? And what kind of problems have you solved when you have built these systems that @marko.klemetti and Michael were talking about?

Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)15:04:56

For me it's the going to be focus area for "years to come" ๐Ÿ˜„

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:26

@dneff whoa. Thatโ€™s me. I use IntelliJ with GitHub Co-Pilot. (And the IntelliJ AI so it can write my commit messages โ€” which @jason.cox told me about, which is a life-changer!!!)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:53

(regarding AI written git commit messages โ€” I was on a plane without wifi, and AI couldnโ€™t connect to mothership. It was terrible โ€” I had to MANUALLY WRITE MY OWN COMMIT MESSAGES!!! It was awful! Like I was in the Dark Ages again!) ๐Ÿ˜†

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:02

i love the clarity of this framework and the consistency it provides.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:07

@bscott โ€œyou may have other stakeholders you may need to loop inโ€. Good caveat. ๐Ÿ˜†

Joao Franco15:04:34

For those that like to use cli is there a good solution to use something like copilot for commit messages?

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Joao Franco15:04:56

This looks like copilot for cli, I wanted something more integrated similar to what happens when writing ode in the ide but that would write the commit message.

mrako15:04:54

Yeah, you are right, I don't think it has the commit message as of yet (but probably does in the future). There are a few initiatives to this: https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/merge_requests/ai_in_merge_requests.html (not cli, but kind of what you are looking for) https://dev.to/bdougieyo/ai-generated-git-commit-messages-4j7g

Joao Franco15:04:55

๐Ÿ‘ thank u

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mrako15:04:29

Happy to help! ๐Ÿ™‚

Luca Ingianni08:04:51

well there's a generic tool to interact with LLMs wich is called, unsurprisingly, llm which should be suitable for this purpose. If you're thinking specifically of commit messages, I suppose you'd have to integrate it with git manually, but I guess that would just be a very slim wrapper or even alias

Jochen Bรผhler15:04:33

Clearly they did not have the power of today's Photoshop to create that poster... ๐Ÿ˜‰

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:07

I love all these references to Wiring the Winning Organization: ๐Ÿ™

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:19

Seriously, I am blown away by the fact that once again, this community is on the vanguard of some of the most important technology and business initiatives! ๐Ÿ™

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:16

We focus on shortest job first, which usually means lowest risk proposals go first.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:23

Fascinating: AMPLIFY: Broadcast out the highest value use cases, and the the low risk uses cases, to accelerate adoption of great stuff, and help people get their proposals thru. Marvelous!!!!

Matthew Pickles15:04:41

"A little bit of human sugar interaction doesn't hurt." One of the best lines of the day!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:04:44

โญ Now presenting The Top 3 Patterns From Past Ways of Working You Need to Know! is @jonathansmart1, Founder, Business Agility Coach and Leader, Sooner Safer Happier.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:51

Welcome @jonathansmart1 !!!

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Stephen Thomas15:04:58

We don't study the past in general, especially in Computer Science. ๐Ÿ˜ข

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:28

those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it

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Stephen Thomas15:04:40

and those who do study it are doomed to watch others repeat it

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Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:00

Q: do you think software should be in the same bucket / group as AI> or different paradigms (of industrial revolution)

Milan Zbirkovsky15:04:19

I feel like AI deserve separate bucket

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:19

@mik in his diagram made a new row for AI โ€” personally, Iโ€™d add AI to the Age of Digital, which is how Dr. Perez does it โ€” and it underscores how long it took for us to get to the new normal โ€” over 2 decades!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:21

FIRST CHARACTER UNLOCK! ๐Ÿ˜†

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Milan Zbirkovsky15:04:17

I'm laughing myself to death under the table! Superpower: The main rebel

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:51

(PS: what a great idea from Dropbox Capture โ€” name your file after your tool, so everyone knows when screenshots come from it. ^^^^)

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Sam Yeats15:04:32

bring back 1855!

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Stephen Thomas15:04:55

I'm having trouble with Jon's British pronunciation of "Erie"

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Luca Ingianni15:04:06

I find it interesting that essentially all characters introduced were either British or American. What's the reason?

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Joao Franco15:04:13

Centers of the Industrial Revolution? Just like most characters of renaissance were Italian I would say

Stephen Thomas15:04:24

What about primitive societies where there was no "leader" only "situational; leaders?" Leaders for hunting were experts in hunting Leaders for food were experts in gathering and gardening ...

Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:15

I'm not sure their cave paintings were clear enough to explain their thinking ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:30

Fascinating โ€” on Industrial Revolution. I think the latest Nobel Prize winner was awarded because of her work studying how embargoes in the 1800s protected French textile industries. A fantastic natural experiment showing effectiveness of industrial policy, which most economists dismissed as mostly ineffective.

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Stephen Thomas15:04:24

Jon is a quick learner and an expert at Unlearning

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:26

we should all have such an ability

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:30

Or as we Americans popularly pronounce, โ€œcar-NEGG-eeโ€. (learned from watching lots of public TV documentaries. โ€œThis show was made possible with the generous support of the Carnegie Foundationโ€ฆโ€œ. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)15:04:23

Gene knows this from being coerced into watching Downton Abbey.

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)15:04:07

(or as he calls it, โ€œdocumentariesโ€)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]15:04:57

Tomato, Tomarto ๐Ÿ™‚ So many ways to say Carnegie! CarNEGee, Car-NEE-gee, Car-NUH-gee, Car-NAY-gee

Stephen Thomas18:04:03

Upon reflection Iโ€™m now more conscious of and have empathy for the Brits when I go to England and canโ€™t speak โ€œEnglishโ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:04:40

Itโ€™s funny โ€” where I grew up, we said CAR-negg-ee. Which no other parts of the country said. The Public Broadcasting Service (like a snooty BBC) that aired Downton Abbey and created shows like Sesame Street would always say car-NEGG-ee.

Stephen Thomas19:04:20

To paraphrase Richard Feynman/Shakespeare/Eric Evans > whatโ€™s in a pronunciation, as long as we have a shared understanding of what it means

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:04:04

Router // Rooter // Rawter being another one!

Stephen Thomas19:04:48

Although, one does have to be careful. My brother spent a college semester in England, and a friend stopped by and asked โ€œdo you want to go over and knock up Eleanor?โ€ Which has very different meanings in the US vs England.

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Stephen Thomas15:04:23

Jon, before your next talk try googling "how do you pronounce ..."

Bernard Voos (FedEx)15:04:15

Or if youโ€™re from western Pennsylvania, you pronounce it kaar-NAY-gee

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:59

(Rockefeller Foundation another huge funding source for American public TV!).

Chris Leeworthy15:04:23

Random question, Is this chap related to โ€œHow to win friends and influence peopleโ€ Dale Carnegie?

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)15:04:38

This is an amazing American history lesson!!!

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Sam Yeats15:04:47

Steve Jobs must have learnโ€™t from him on the no-note taking Under cross-examination, Mr Schiller said Apple behaved much more like a start-up than a big company, with categorically no note-taking, almost no presentations, very little written analysis of the business and very little talk of profits in the executive team meetings it holds every Monday from 9am until noon.15 Apr 2024

Matthew Pickles15:04:01

Translating sketches! How times have changed, hahaha!

Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:10

we were just talking about boxes and lines earlier - some jobs haven't changed that much

Dave McKerral15:04:03

So the US overtook the UK because of a Brit, noted :flag-scotland:

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting15:04:58

I guess itโ€™s the same for Greeks with Romans, and then for Romans with UK ๐Ÿ˜„

Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:24

another fun learning is Fordlandia that Ford tried to do in Brazil (super interesting experiment - that didn't quite work)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:33

This resulted in an 8x improvement in throughput. Replicated at the Olds plant.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:53

Jon go long!

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Akis Sklavounakis15:04:28

McCallum also wrote (not very agile): Six general principles of administration (1855): โ€ข A proper division of responsibilities โ€ข Sufficient power conferred to enable the same to be fully carried out, that such responsibilities be real in their character โ€ข Means of knowing if such responsibilities are faithfully executed โ€ข Great promptness in the report of all derelictions of duty that the evils may be corrected โ€ข Such information, to be obtained through a system of daily reports and checks that will not embarrass principal officers, nor lessen their influence with subordinates โ€ข The adoption of a system, as a whole, which will not only enable the General Superintendent to detect errors immediately, but will also point out the delinquent.

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Piotr Papros15:04:38

@jonathansmart1 finish, do not skip it

Stephen Thomas15:04:48

Excellent talk as always!!!

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Sander Brienen15:04:48

I missed Eliyahu Goldratt ๐Ÿ˜‰

Bernard Voos (FedEx)15:04:48

Awesome talk @jonathansmart1! Good to see you again.

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Milan Zbirkovsky15:04:12

That was fun!!!!!

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Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)15:04:38

Thanks to all the speakers. It's been a fantastic day!

Neil Moore15:04:21

Thanks Jon. History is never boring when presented like that

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Pavlo Muntianu15:04:22

Amazing presentation @jonathansmart1. Thank you!

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Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:06

awesome stories @jonathansmart1

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting15:04:10

I love who studies history to understand the present. Amazing work as usual @jonathansmart1 โค๏ธ fantastic regression rolling back the timeline to understand how we arrived to todayโ€™s way of working

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Nigel Budd15:04:16

Thanks for some amazing presentations today, looking forward to tomorrow

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:19

Thank you to all the speakers!!!! What an amazing set of achievements and learnings!!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:40

Great first day!!

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Chris Combe at TeamForm15:04:06

and holy cow - @genek "the machine" types notes faster than anyone I've ever seen - need to get him to do a CAPTCHA test to make sure he is human ๐Ÿ™‚

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:18

Gather and Slack remain open for continued chatting

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Neil Moore16:04:40

Manchester watch party!

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Klaus Hebsgaard16:04:29

@jonathansmart1 Top Trumps should definitely do an industrial revolutions set based on your presentation ๐Ÿ˜

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:04:56

Rebel: 10 Temper: 2 Patience: 11 :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:04:04

Love the single-threaded format, helps prevent FOMO and creates a shared experience scenius for us all as a cohort

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:04:15

Would suggest leaving 5 min open between talks for the speaker(s) to review and respond to Slack questions while still โ€œon airโ€. Hopefully thereโ€™s more ability to be flexible with this formatโ€ฆ

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)20:04:10

@genek for your considerationโ€ฆ

Luciano Visentin16:04:21

Best watch party !

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Jennifer Petoff19:04:25

Sunset drinks in Lisbon!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)20:04:07

Looks super fun!! If FOMO is the Fear Of Missing out, then what acronym described the reality of missing out? :thinking_face:

Jennifer Petoff20:04:51

AMO - actually missing out? Or, how about SAMO - sad about missing out? I think we could start a new trend here if we play our cards right :-)