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2024-04-25
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Henrik Hรธegh06:04:02

Hi from Denmark. Really excited to see todays talks.

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BMK-SECTION6-TransformationArchitect07:04:35

Greetings from New Zealand, Kia Ora - excited to hear from our speakers and experts - Day 2; bring it on :kiwifruit:

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Matthew Pickles08:04:58

Buenos dรญas from an overcast Sierra Norte de Madrid. Looking forward to day 2 of the conference!

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Slackbot08:04:22

Reminder: Get yourself in front of your browser for the start of Day 2 of the Summit in 15 minutes at 10:00am BST! https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F06V49GSELX/timer.png

Gerald Benischke08:04:05

My favourite picture of Dev and Ops - (I lie, they're actually called Alfie and Bertie...) - hello from Leyland, North West England

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Gerald Benischke08:04:05

My favourite picture of Dev and Ops - (I lie, they're actually called Alfie and Bertie...) - hello from Leyland, North West England

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Matthew Pickles08:04:57

Dev and Ops live together in perfect harmony!

Matthew Pickles08:04:46

Or is this just the A/B testing, hahaha!

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Mili Orucevic08:04:13

That's a great cross-functional team ๐Ÿ˜„

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Stephen Thomas08:04:58

I hear John Allspaw is working on a new talk based on this โ€œbelow the lineโ€ research finding ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)08:04:06

A very early good morning from Portland, Oregon. And yes, the ITREV team is running this show live, and we would love to hear what you think of our new format. Cheers to a great Day 2!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)08:04:32

Good morning from Indiana! 2am for you ๐Ÿ˜‚ Excited for Day 2! ๐Ÿ˜Š

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Jan Hartman08:04:01

I am really looking forward to Stephen Fishman and Matthew McLartyโ€™s talk on optionality at the end of the day. I am not familiar with their work so I donโ€™t know whether by optionality they mean a custom pick & mix candy bag of business features on call through APIโ€™s, or whether their connotation of optionality is about postponing the moment your options become decisions (to extend the candy metaphor if I may: to decide what type of candy bar you want the moment you feel hungry instead of many days before). I absolutely loved the graphic business novel about applying the concept of โ€˜Real Optionsโ€™ in project risk management. The title of the novel is โ€˜Commitmentโ€™ (2013) and it is written by Olav Maassen and Chris Matts. See: https://commitment-thebook.com/. That book was more a traditional project management setting, I guess, and examples of applying optionality in a scaled agile setting are โ€˜Set-Based Designโ€™ and โ€˜Thinking in Betsโ€™ (Annie Duke). #discussion

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Barbara Arnst08:04:56

Ready and pumped for DayTwo! Greetings from Belgium ๐Ÿ’ช

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Slackbot09:04:25

Reminder: Get yourself in front of your browser because Day 2 of the Summit is starting now!

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting09:04:09

remember to take also a good Italian espresso and enjoy โ˜• the day 2! ๐ŸŽ‰

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Rachael Mclauchlan09:04:54

Greetings from Durham, UK! Looking forwards to Day2!

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Pavlo Muntianu09:04:29

Greetings from Amsterdam :flag-nl:

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Roman Lublinski (Delivery Manager at EPAM)09:04:04

Greetings from Switzerland!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)09:04:22

Single-track awesomeness creating a great shared experience

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Toni Tassani09:04:15

Hello from Barcelona ๐Ÿ‘‹

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Alex (IT Revolution, Conference Staff)09:04:38

*Emojis here to show interest in watch parties*

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Sander Brienen09:04:49

Maybe promote watchparties a bit more on the events page. I wasnโ€™t aware of themโ€ฆ

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement09:04:41

๐Ÿ’ฅ

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:04:32

๐ŸŒ… Starting us off today is @willem.vanlammeren, Technical Lead Industrial IT, Solvay and @david856, Manager, Analytics for Industry; Author, The IT/OT Insider. They will present From Mass Manufacturing to Mass Innovation and tell the story of one of the most significant challenges in the manufacturing industry.

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Joris De Cuyper09:04:22

"as a good Belgian" - love that :)

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)09:04:38

Our AV engineer @kalle.makela setting up the watch party in Tampere Finland! ๐Ÿ’›

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Matthew Pickles09:04:48

Only Trappist beers here, please :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:54

One of the most common things I heard when working with people in crtitical infrastructure was, โ€œBut itโ€™s OT.โ€ (meaning, improvement is impossible and itโ€™s hopeless.) Which is why I think this topic from @willem.vanlammeren @david856 is so important.

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Armand van der Merwe (TymeX)09:04:31

I am still amazed by the under-representation of industrial engineering in IT and DevOps. Deming, Toyota Kata are all staples of IE.

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Luca Ingianni09:04:31

Yeah, I often fight this sentiment when I work on safety-critical projects.

Luca Ingianni09:04:57

I've long noticed, though, that there seems to me a larger-than-expected number of mechanical engineers among agile practitioners (I'm a mechanical engineer)

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement09:04:49

industrial engineer here :man-raising-hand:

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:04:44

Interestingly, the people at the forefront of each Technology-led Revolution, since 1771, are Engineers. Whether mechanical engineers, industrial engineers or software engineers.

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:40

It's because good mechanical or electrical engineers understand the scientific method. Agile is based on the scientific method.

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Armand van der Merwe (TymeX)09:04:50

My systems engineering lecturer always said - A good engineer is a lazy engineer - they wil spend weeks to find a way to save 10 mins on any tedious process.

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Luca Ingianni09:04:37

According to Larry Wall, the original author of the Perl programming language, there are three great virtues of a programmer; Laziness, Impatience and Hubris

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:10

Actual real containers, pipelines! ๐Ÿ˜†

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:38

always good to see when the analogies meet their origins ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:06

i can imagine some of the conversations inside basfโ€ฆ โ€œwe need to redeploy our containers that manage our containers.โ€ โ€œweโ€™re upgrading our pipelines that handle the pipelines.โ€

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:04:50

Good point: NotPetya virus prevented Maersk from being able to unload their physical containers from ships

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Chris Combe at TeamForm09:04:06

I remember having some confusing discussions about "products" at a bank where financial products are often quite different to a digital SW product even though they heavily use a lot of tech

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Andy Sturrock09:04:56

When I worked at BP I could use lots of nice analogies about Flow of work being like physical pipelines. Management's role should be a "pig" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigging) removing the crud in the pipeline (or even worse kinks in the pipeline) to increase flow. I've had to find a load of new analogies for Atom Bank ๐Ÿ˜ .

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:44

The real world is atoms: clean water, manufactured goods., etc

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:02

โ€ฆand they are a huge part of the economy, creating lots of good jobs

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:49

Lifetimes of these things we install and run are 30-40 years.

Stephen Thomas09:04:50

Itโ€™s not โ€œFail Fastโ€ itโ€™s โ€œLearn Fasterโ€ Failure is just what some of us learn best from.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:46

SCADA, PLC, sensors, networks (DCS), enable controlling entire plant from one control room. Look at all these happy people in this marketing slide โ€” but it actually runs in Excel. ๐Ÿ˜†

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:20

First graph is good! But what is happening in the second graph? Manufacturing growth seems to have stalled.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:35

(I love these graphs from FRED site: Fed Reserve of St Louis). Kudos to @willem.vanlammeren @david856! PS: I got a tutorial on this from one of Dr. Ethan Mollickโ€™s old classmates, Dr. Daniel Rock, who spoke at GeneCon last year on AI impact on labor markets (the GPT for GPT paper that he did with OpenAI researchers) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:48

โ€œone third through pilot+ phase, management loses attention due to another shiny objectโ€

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Joachim09:04:32

Wasn't there a McKinsey paper stating that +70% of transformations fail? ๐Ÿ™‚

David Ariens09:04:44

Yes, absolutely

David Ariens09:04:09

Question is what is failure. It is very hard for people in manufacturing to accept to stop a project when investments were made (sunk cost fallacy). For me, stopping in time and learning from that experience can be extremely valuable

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Joachim09:04:23

Your experiences in manufacturing happen across many industries. Just an example - Suncorp in Australia (financial services) went on with their core banking transformation for years despite not going anywhere ... sunk cost fallacy in action.

Joachim09:04:53

Amy Edmondson has been researching failure (and learning from it) for years: https://hbr.org/2011/04/strategies-for-learning-from-failure Her latest book is: 'Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well'.

David Ariens13:05:20

@joachimsammer - Hadn't seen your reply before, but thanks for sharing this HBR article !

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:14

OMG. โ€œCommon point of reporting for IT and OT is the CEOโ€ (!!!!)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:52

PS: this is the opposite of a coherent system โ€” the two parts of a system that needs to work together are completely partitioned!!!! WOW!

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Roman Lublinski (Delivery Manager at EPAM)09:04:02

Actually quite often those could co-exist isolated and also deliver ๐Ÿ™‚ (within their area).

Matthew Pickles09:04:39

I have exactly that experience "How hard can it be?", it's only some MQTT data isn't it?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:47

Fantastic diagrams โ€” the zoom-in of complete non-overlaps of IT and OT areโ€ฆ you knowโ€ฆ really funny and tragic. Kudos on making visible this problem to leaders who matter!

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David Ariens09:04:17

We are really happy to see that management teams all over the world are starting to use these diagrams. It's very rewarding and triggers us to keep on working on them!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:36

Brilliant โ€” the liaison becomes the first step to bridging the two silos, establishing an interface, the first step towards coherence.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:04:42

Consistent theme: working together in multidisciplinary teams. Interesting to hear about manufacturing moving away from role silos, which is the context where role silos evolved. Competitive advantage is in the social domain (even more so with AI)

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David Ariens09:04:10

Absolutely ! Its extremely hard for an organization build on the foundation of Industry 2.0 to adapt to the current world

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)09:04:23

In the cross-functional teams, do you think they should have the people all the way from business to development? This is a tough topic in the manufacturing companies.

Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)09:04:57

And while it's difficult to be able to involve the decision makers in different business lines, how would you organize the steering?

Willem Van lammeren09:04:30

I think the crossfunctional teams can have business people, but honestly, I haven't seen it that often. Usually they prefer to work via steering commitees etc. Bringing them along will takes years of buiding trust but we've seen it happen.

Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)09:04:57

Yeah, the issue I keep seeing is that the communication between the business end, POs, development teams etc. is lacking. And every layer in the middle is struggling to to create visibility and prioritazion and as a result, there is tons of fat in the e2e process. I have customer that just delivered AI data feature that was initially planned in 2021. And this is not an isolated case.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:04:58

Reverse Ways of Working Maneuver. From Digital back into Manufacturing ๐Ÿ™‚

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Matthew Pickles09:04:11

I would have really liked to be that intern!

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Matthew Pickles09:04:59

I probably still do, maybe it's my turn next, hahaha.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:04:34

:scales: And now the team from Legal & General, one of the UKโ€™s largest financial services and asset management companies. @bharghava.bhogireddy2, Senior Operations Architect; @jennifer.pickard, Head of Engineering and @tariq.surty, Director of IT, are here to describe their initiative to overhaul the company's mainframe engineering and delivery systems.

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Ms Jennifer Pickard11:04:37

Thanks @annp & @genek for the opportunity to present today. Please find attached a .pdf of the slides presented today. Many thanks

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]09:04:46

Thanks @willem.vanlammeren and @david856!

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David Ariens09:04:58

Thank you all for tuning in !

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:28

Oh, my. Wait until you find out why they called their initiative is called Project ImPala!!!! It is ๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:07

2 years as Britainโ€™s most admired companies. Over 1T GBP in assets under management

Luca Ingianni09:04:33

that was a fun one, @willem.vanlammeren and @david856. Really reflects my own trajectory

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Willem Van lammeren09:04:47

What journey? Are you managing to bridge both worlds?

Luca Ingianni09:04:41

I do a lot of work with embedded systems, also safety-critical. This means there's always this divide between doing things in "prototype mode" (not safety compliant, not mass-producable etc) versus "mass production mode" (do things properly, care for manufacturability, unit cost etc)

Luca Ingianni09:04:04

Am I managing? Well, it's not binary pass/fail, so there's always aspects I think could be better. But I like to think I'm making a difference.

Akis Sklavounakis09:04:26

The slide overlay is not working well

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Jochen Bรผhler09:04:01

Yes, same for me. The transitions are not working. But the Webcam stream is fine.

Willem Van lammeren09:04:56

If you want to check out the cooperation models we found : https://itotinsider.substack.com/p/itot-cooperation-models. If you know of new ones let us know!

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John Merry09:04:42

Hi Willem & David, Excellent talk - I am working in this space at the moment and we are in the middle of an innovation project to converge IT/OT at our company and would great to link up and collaborate on this.

David Ariens10:04:41

Absolutely! Feel free to reach out via LinkedIn or email : https://itotinsider.substack.com/about

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:33

Jennifer's mic is also not working well.

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Mili Orucevic09:04:09

Might be the batteries on the headset?

Piotr Papros09:04:32

but the slides works better ๐Ÿ™‚

Chris Leeworthy09:04:10

do they have a spare headset

Marck Oemar09:04:11

It sounds like interference. Or a bad connection.

Luca Ingianni09:04:19

wiggle the plug maybe? sounds like a bad coinnection

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Chris Leeworthy09:04:58

we are all hearing the noise

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:06

Perhaps use the laptop mic?

Marck Oemar09:04:09

its not feedback probably.

Roman Lublinski (Delivery Manager at EPAM)09:04:25

low battery of the headset

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:03

this what a live conference feels like sometimes, folks!

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Chris Leeworthy09:04:22

Joys of live broadcasting! ๐Ÿ˜„

Luca Ingianni09:04:28

this is a wireless headset I think. Might be weird interference or codec issues. Darn software!

Stephen Smyth09:04:43

Way better, thanks!

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:45

on a related note, everyone should read โ€œwiring the winning organizationโ€ and what itโ€™s like to live in the โ€œdanger zoneโ€

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Claus Christensen09:04:16

try to reboot the headset

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Luca Ingianni09:04:36

Have you tried turning it off and on again? ๐Ÿ˜„

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:33

PROJECT IMPALA!!! Brilliant!

Sumanth Dupuguntla09:04:37

Not able to hear Jen

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:51

(can everyone hear Jennifer?)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:40

Lower environment? Theyโ€™re not important, right? ๐Ÿ˜†

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David Ariens09:04:48

THANK YOU ALL ! What a great group to be in ๐Ÿ™‚ Make sure to subscribe at https://itotinsider.substack.com/ (PS: we started doing podcasts now as well to bring stories to the world, if you have any to share - we'd love to talk )

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Jochen Bรผhler09:04:12

Slide transitions still not working properly. They get stuck "between slides". Anything I can do?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:28

@jochen.buehler Iโ€™ll post screenshots.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:51

So good!!!

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Matthew Pickles09:04:57

Was it a bug or a feature? ๐Ÿ˜‚

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:38

โ€œJust imagine spinning up or down a mainframeโ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:06

(Incidentally, I heard stories of incorrect JVM memory setting taking down an entire Z mainframe and all the workloads on it.)

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:06

wowโ€ฆ i didnโ€™t think that was even possible.

Marck Oemar09:04:09

Interesting to see the 4 generations addressed. Itโ€™s a real challenge.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:22

The IMMUTABLE MAINFRAME!! ๐Ÿ˜† So good!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:51

(mainframe running in Azure? Oh, maybe the dev and test environments. Still amazing!)

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David Graรงa09:04:59

it is very hard to see the slides

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:05

โ€œA Day in the Life of Leslie (the modern mainframe developer) Re-Imaginedโ€.

David Graรงa09:04:09

thanks for sharing them on the chat

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Stephen Thomas09:04:22

Love the idea of Empathy driven. Curious as to how they did that. Empathy Interviews?

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Stephen Thomas09:04:49

Some random thoughts thinking about this: 1. Start with understanding their context 2. People donโ€™t care what you have to say until they know you care 3. Build relationships

Sumanth Dupuguntla09:04:16

Design Thinking Approach (Empathy based) - We have invited teams(devs, Test, Architects, Operations, Business Analysts,...) and started to ask questions and had two boards (what are your pain points, What good looks like/what do we want in new world).

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Sumanth Dupuguntla09:04:48

We had around 1200 -1500 post its. Which we still look at to make sure we have addressed all the pain points.

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Ms Jennifer Pickard10:04:31

I think the momentum grew as people began to see not just the range of issues but also similar issues other people were talking about. To take people away from their desks into a safe space and take a step back to look at frustrations & opportunities, We really tried to gauge it as this was their opportunity to have a voice and we wanted to keep that through out the delivery. And the promise of Pizza (and has continued) to help.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)09:04:43

this slide makes me happy. wonderful improvements.

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Marck Oemar09:04:41

Maybe I missed it, but is there any valuable reading material on Empathy related to this use-case?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution09:04:20

โœจ Please welcome @gayathrirgk, Agile Consultant (Unit Agile Leader), TCS and @mark.anning โ€” Openreach Lead Agile Coach here to present, Charting the Course to Requirements Excellence in DevOps

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Mark Anning10:04:52

๐Ÿ™‚ Thank you @annp & @genek - for your convenience, our material also provided here.

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Chris Leeworthy09:04:26

Also well done for getting through the tech issues folks

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Ms Jennifer Pickard10:04:42

Thank you @christianhans.knuth. The slides will be available afterwards I believe if people missed anything. Thanks to the teams for posting the slides as we went through.

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Joachim09:04:15

The adventures of a live event.

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Chris Leeworthy09:04:52

Anyone know someone good with computers? ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Matthew Pickles09:04:29

Not me! I'm just here to fix the heating pump ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Kevin Ashton (Equal Experts)10:04:02

Can we blame it on hardware and then send it to the ops team? :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair09:04:55

SUBCON or SUBCONTRACTOR vs PARTNER

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Akis Sklavounakis09:04:27

Better to go full screen on the slides. A lot of screen real estate is wasted in a normal reading mode.

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Akis Sklavounakis10:04:20

It's also a little hard to hear Gayathri. It seems the mic is far away.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:07

Problems escaped each phase of SDLC, lots of rework, long lead times (from concept to cash)

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Matthew Pickles10:04:08

I've seen this one "The pieces of the puzzle, just don't fit!"

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:27

Feelings: frustration, finger pointing, across 500-700 people, puzzle doesnโ€™t fit, no idea what full puzzle looks like

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Matthew Pickles10:04:24

Measures or targets? Are we there yet?

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Chris Leeworthy10:04:50

making the measure the target is a mistake Iโ€™ve seen a few times

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:04:54

Goodhart's Law: When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:08

you beat me to it ๐Ÿ˜‰ nice reference

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:04:42

To really have fake change, also tie bonuses, promotion and pay to the targets!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:04:06

I've made that mistake...

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:35

the other angle might be premature convergence around targets leading to over constraining what is possible.. applying a deterministic mindset to an emergent space / domain... (complicated vs complex etc..) targets don't work well in the complex domain

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:04:37

But... you said you'd do 3247 story points by Dec 2024

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:58

doing story points is easy when they are made up ๐Ÿ˜‰

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:04:15

What would like my velocity to be? No problem...

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)10:04:13

someone shared this insightful post with me about goodhartโ€™s law. i found some of the framing helpful. https://commoncog.com/goodharts-law-not-useful/

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Stephen Thomas10:04:37

If (measure facilitates understanding/learning) ๐Ÿ˜„ If measure used to compare people/teams โ€œperformanceโ€ ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:06

@jeff.gallimore this looks genuinely interesting - can't wait to read (hope it has the nuance around context and domain of a problem.. think Cynefin etc.)

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:50

there's an AI thought experiment might be called the paperclip maximiser that is quite interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence

Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:28

when meeting a target becomes dangerous to humanity

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]10:04:09

Example: Wells Fargo retail customer account opening

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Matthew Pickles10:04:21

BDD! I'm with that one all the way!

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Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)10:04:23

BDD and ATDD is my silver bullet

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Chris Combe at TeamForm10:04:59

Chris Matts + Dan North would be pleased ;)

Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)10:04:05

Good talk! To me it's very important to think Specifications (BDD) and Requirements are different things.

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Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)10:04:05

Good talk! To me it's very important to think Specifications (BDD) and Requirements are different things.

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Henri Terho10:04:19

Good catch! you can think of it in such a way that Specification means behaviour of the system and requirments tell the context or technical limitations

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Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)10:04:55

The best requirement is no requirement, but specification gives you the behaviour of the system witch is the key

Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)10:04:22

Worst requirement that I have seen: "Autonomous Vehicle shall operate safely"

2
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Jose Brenes10:04:42

We have heard about SMART goals, what about SMART Specifications? Not giving the product team a clear goal to reach can end up in not delivering the value expected, losing time and resources.

Kalle Mรคkelรค (AI and DevOps Lead)10:04:22

GIVEN, WHEN, THEN. Is a solution for: โ€ข Capturing the dialog at the beginning โ€ข Preemptively find possible functional problems โ€ข Giving automatic acceptance criteria (even to the possible contracts) โ€ข Being the actual automated test cases at the same time โ€ข blocking possible scope creeps โ€ข Basically giving focus for the whole service and product development

๐Ÿ‘ 2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:00

This slide is fantastic โ€” on what goes wrong during the co-creation process:

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:07

(itโ€™s their next slide)

Stephen Thomas10:04:19

Iโ€™ve too often seen OKRs that are based on Say/Do outputs and other anti-patterns. Iโ€™m starting to just work on helping people use the https://www.soonersaferhappier.com/post/outcome-hypotheses-a-primer (w/o OKRs) as a first step

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Gayathri Shriram13:04:36

Loved this .Correctly depicted we need to both leading (present)and lagging indicators(post) .One gives feedback on the go more agile ,other after.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)10:04:55

if you want to get into Gather, the conferenceโ€™s virtual space, you can get there at https://itrevolution.com/gather

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting10:04:38

itโ€™d be interesting @mark.anning to understand more about the love for co-pilot. Do you have data on this regard?

Mark Anning10:04:27

We started with a general awareness call for our Tribes, where the two us demonstrated Copilot's response to our prompts 'live' during our session. Gayathri followed this up with our Product Owner community, to help them craft their stories, and reduce time taken to do so. We're also developing a growing list of suggested prompts. Re data, we currently have much qualitative verbatim feedback from our POs which we'll then be using in conjunction with quantitative utilization data.

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting10:04:47

thanks @mark.anning, itโ€™s really an interesting aspect to help product management to be more functional co-working with AI. Great job1 ๐Ÿ˜ป Iโ€™m looking forward to see those prompts ๐Ÿ™

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Jan Hartman10:04:56

I am really looking forward to Stephen Fishman and Matthew McLartyโ€™s talk on optionality at the end of the day.

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Jan Hartman10:04:35

I am not familiar with their work so I donโ€™t know whether by optionality they mean a custom pick & mix candy bag of business features on call through APIโ€™s, or whether their connotation of optionality is about postponing the moment your options become decisions (to extend the candy metaphor if I may: to decide what type of candy bar you want the moment you feel hungry instead of many days before).

Jan Hartman10:04:16

I absolutely loved the graphic business novel about applying the concept of โ€˜Real Optionsโ€™ in project risk management. The title of the novel is โ€˜Commitmentโ€™ (2013) and it is written by Olav Maassen and Chris Matts. See: https://commitment-thebook.com/. That book was more a traditional project management setting, I guess, and examples of applying optionality in a scaled agile setting are โ€˜Set-Based Designโ€™ and โ€˜Thinking in Betsโ€™ (Annie Duke).

๐Ÿ”– 1
Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)10:04:46

@internettitan or @stephen.fishman? @mattmclartybc โ˜๏ธ

Stephen Fishman12:04:40

Hi @j.hartman - weโ€™re actually talking about both aspects (prep early to decide late AND enabling variety & combinations on demand)โ€ฆ. Andโ€ฆ. Pirates!

Jan Hartman13:04:27

@internettitan - Pirates in the Navy? ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

Slackbot10:04:23

Reminder: The talks are starting again in 5 minutes. Start navigating your way back to your browser. https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F06V49GSELX/timer.png

Ann Perry - IT Revolution10:04:21

:flag-ch:And now, please welcome, from KPMG Switzerland, @vkonofaos โ€” Head of Delivery Service Delivery Platform and @nandkishorgaikwad โ€” Chief Architect - Technology. They will present an experience report on their strategic pursuit of Sustainable Business Agility, and the "SwissAlps" cloud platform that resulted from it, built upon Microsoft Azure.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:38

One of the things I love about ETLS/DOES presentations are the breadth of industries covered, and how you learn about how these different types of organizations work โ€” in this case, professional services firms, comprised of geographical entities, existing in a family of other partnerships.

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement10:04:41

agreed! Every industry is a tech industry

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Matthew Pickles10:04:00

Like the railroad tunnel analogy!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:26

It was never explicitly mentioned, but decades ago, professional service firms were often notorious for not stellar backend systems โ€” there were several examples in the 2000s of one of the Big Four consulting practices having material weaknesses, I think in their timekeeping systems, which were definitely in scope for SOX (SOX-404, as we called it back then.) Anyone remember that? So great to see better conditions to build apps to support the frontline consultants!!!

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Matthew Pickles10:04:08

As someone who had to work in the handling of US clients in a European bank, I really would have preferred that you didn't remind me of that ๐Ÿ˜‚

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:24

Ah yes, the war stories!!! ๐Ÿ˜†

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)10:04:29

a departure from the genai-created images, iโ€™m sure ๐Ÿ˜‰ (also, a really good foundation for telling stories with flexibility to hit whatโ€™s most important)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair10:04:40

Data Center Exit

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Joachim10:04:42

I was today years old when I learned that Velux is a Danish company. Looking forward to the talk.

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:40

@nandkishorgaikwad what were the metrics and indicators you used to track progress toward the data center exit?

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Vasileios Konofaos11:04:51

Hi @jeff.gallimore We measures the Actual servers number remaining, Overall RAM, Overall CPU and Overall Disk consumed of the Virtualized platform. The above metrics are monitored on monthly basis. At the end the actual number of Apps migrated from our CMDB.

thankyou 1
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Stephen Thomas11:04:44

We donโ€™t always need โ€œthe latest technologiesโ€ Boring Technology works well for most problems. Stop chasing shiny objects join The https://boringtechnology.club/

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:53

โ€œresumeโ€™ driven developmentโ€

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Stephen Thomas11:04:13

The following are some of my trigger phrases: โ€ข latest technology โ€ข Future proof (we will survive the implosion of the sun)

Matthew Pickles11:04:07

Compliance by design! Excellent!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:04:40

๐ŸชŸ Please say hello to @henrikrhoegh, Senior Manager, Platform Engineering and Josefin Salomonsson, Director Digital Governance from VELUX. They will share how they embarked a new journey to better scale and optimise for flow.

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Marcelo Ancelmo11:04:43

Great presentation @nandkishorgaikwad and @vkonofaos

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:38

The famous roof-window!

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Matthew Pickles11:04:18

An actual client here ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:32

โ€œgoal: get closer to our customer, moving from b2b to b2b2cโ€

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:58

โ€œexponential increase in SaaS solutionsโ€

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:16

I love this presentation, because they are so deliberate about thinking about organizational wiring โ€” who talks to who, and why, about what. @henrikrhoegh Josefin Salomonsson

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:52

โ€œi made this diagram. itโ€™s not scientific or anything.โ€ :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

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Marck Oemar11:04:01

Oefff. yeee DevX!

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Matthew Pickles11:04:05

With you on the DevEx!

Marck Oemar11:04:09

Spot on, the Intr vs Extra vs Germane. Iโ€™m โ€˜stealingโ€™ this. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:12

โ€œYAML is the answerโ€ hahaha. So good! (BTW, I recently heard podcast on inventor of YAML, and it totally changed my mind from ridiculing it to appreciating it. He just released YAMLscript, which I have complicated feelings aboutโ€ฆ โ€ฆbut itโ€™s actually implemented in Clojure under the hood, which I do love. But configuration that is actually code can be scary)

Luca Ingianni11:04:32

Can you remember where you heard it?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:27

https://www.therepl.net/episodes/52/ Super interesting, and not for the reasons I thought it would be!!!

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:15

TIL cognitive load theory

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Matthew Pickles11:04:15

It makes my job and the team's job easier (or not)! That's how I measure it!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:38

What a brilliant framing of the source of cognitive load, and where to focus. NICE!

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Akis Sklavounakis11:04:55

Platform engineering is not about engineering platforms. This is a conflation of product-centric or product-oriented delivery and platform engineering.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:59

Hereโ€™s your kubernetes, helm, cluster, etcโ€ฆ โ€œbut itโ€™s only YAMLโ€. ๐Ÿ˜†

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Matthew Pickles11:04:53

Anti Corruption Layer! Are you sure you really want to open that big yellow box? ๐Ÿ˜‚

1
Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)11:04:53

i love the idea of separating the developer domain and the platform domain. i see how that could really lower cognitive load. ๐Ÿ’ก

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:02

as long as the platform isn't overly constraining, Gregor Hohpe talks about this in his platform strategy book. Abstractions for platforms is really hard.. sometimes porous boundaries

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Luca Ingianni11:04:38

That was the initial idea of platform "products" and platform teams. It's easy to lose your way though and end up just copying the abstrations of the lower layers "up", instead of adapting them for ease of use by the proiduct teams

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Luca Ingianni11:04:31

Agreed, @chriscombe, abstractions are very hard to get right

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:04:13

Need clarity on what you want to optimise for

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:00

@jeff.gallimore that is a classic read but this is the one I am referring to https://leanpub.com/platformstrategy

๐Ÿ”– 1
Luca Ingianni11:04:02

those are the same book, except on Amazon it's half the price

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Akis Sklavounakis11:04:24

Platform engineering is the discipline of building and operating self-service internal developer platforms. Each layered platform is managed as a compelling product to optimize developer experience and productivity.

Akis Sklavounakis11:04:37

I thought there was no backlog. This slide is the backlog, right?

โž• 1
Henrik Hรธegh11:04:33

It only shows work already done.

Matthew Pickles11:04:51

Know your customer! Love your customer! Work's everytime!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:41

and 1200 release in the last 30 days! Wardley map

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Akis Sklavounakis11:04:10

How do you plan 14 days if they have no estimates on how long work takes?

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Toni Tassani11:04:11

They don't plan them. They decide what is more important for the following 14 days.

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Henrik Hรธegh11:04:29

exactly. we focus on value and what's important. No time dimension.

Akis Sklavounakis11:04:59

No planning needed then. Switch to Kanban, stack rank/prioritize incoming work and take the top item each time. This will improve flow.

Henrik Hรธegh11:04:59

We dont have any incoming work @akis.sklavounakis

Chris Leeworthy11:04:07

also what happens to stuff that would have gone into the backlog, do you ignore it and risk losing ideas or store it somewhere else?

Luca Ingianni11:04:15

that was a great talk

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Nigel Budd11:04:19

Terrific presentation @henrikrhoegh

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Henrik Hรธegh11:04:41

thank you so much.

Nigel Budd11:04:11

I loved your Scrum like approach without a backlog, but a planning session to focus the team on what's important....very inspiring

Marck Oemar11:04:20

Fantastic presentation Henrik!

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Henrik Hรธegh11:04:54

thanks. it means a lot.

Joachim11:04:21

Awesome.

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Matthew Pickles11:04:26

And the story... hasn't ended yet... ๐Ÿ˜‚

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting11:04:41

@henrikrhoegh amazing IDP! I love your point on cognitive load โค๏ธ and it should be an interesting aspect that with the actual burnout data should be a paramount aspect of every CXO strategy. In the old days we were developing on a single language; end of discussion. Now, a dev needs to develop as a polyglot master, support the PO with BDD, the platform teams with yml/cdk/helms/etc. I guess your chart overlaps very well with mine I did with the Cynefin framework to refine the curriculum of the SW craftsmanship Dojo to create a sustainable cognitive load upskilling path. Iโ€™d like to discuss further your data and share mines.

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Luca Ingianni11:04:44

I particularly love hte scientific diagram

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)11:04:14

Great presentation! @henrikrhoegh I didn't catch if Bura was something in-house, or an external product?

Henrik Hรธegh11:04:59

currently in house. we are working maybe open sourcing it. But it's super simple to make. Bura is inspired by Shuttle by Lunar. We just do more then what shuttle does. https://github.com/lunarway/shuttle

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Andy Sturrock11:04:18

@henrikrhoegh great talk. We're going through this at Atom Bank currently so really resonated.

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Andy Bold (Cloud/Security SEM - Flagstone Investment Management)11:04:21

@henrikrhoegh Thank you for sharing! Great presentation, and really great achievements by the team. Approximately many developers are using the platform?

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Barbara Arnst11:04:22

What an inspiring story, and great journey you are on! ๐Ÿ’ช ๐Ÿ’ช

Henrik Hรธegh11:04:37

thank you so much. if's a fun journey :)

Chris Leeworthy11:04:30

and @henrikrhoegh you pronounced extraneous perfectly ๐Ÿ™‚

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)11:04:04

Now @henrikrhoegh knows what we feel when we see Danish words ๐Ÿ™‚

Henrik Hรธegh11:04:56

haha @sdc im told. Danish is easy to learn and impossible to pronounce. Only finish is harder they say ๐Ÿ˜›

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)11:04:26

Isn't Finnish the other way round โ€“ easy to pronounce and impossible to learn? But I am a Swedish speaker, I might not be neutral about Danish and Finnish ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

Henrik Hรธegh11:04:55

@sdc i think you are right.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:04:37

๐Ÿ˜บ And now, let's welcome @cleng, SRE Engagements Product Area Lead at Google. He'll be presenting Overcoming Challenges for a Successful SRE Organizational Setup.

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)11:04:23

Cue the James Bond theme musicโ€ฆ

Chris Atkinson11:04:45

Great work @henrikrhoegh

โค๏ธ 1
Juha-Matti Tuupola11:04:50

Great presentation @henrikrhoegh, loved it!

โค๏ธ 1
Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)11:04:17

@henrikrhoegh you rock! (And we miss you at Eficode ๐Ÿ˜‰ )

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Andreas Friedel11:04:21

@henrikrhoegh could you explain who is your customer? (internal or external)

Henrik Hรธegh11:04:38

Our customer is all internal development teams that needs to run their application on our platform.

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Andreas Friedel12:04:05

Thanks for answering my question, awesome talk by the way thankyou

Akis Sklavounakis11:04:34

Many times customers don't love it when you can't give an estimate of when things will done. Especially if those customers have regulatory or contractual commitments.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:37

Thank you @henrikrhoegh!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:55

โ€œwhat do you do when things become scary?โ€ Hahah. @cleng has talked about โ€œhaunted graveyards,โ€ the scary services that everyone is scared by.

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:41

to the commentary on Product owning the what and why and developers owning the how.... i've be evolving my own thinking and am leaning towards product owning orchestrating the developers to the customers/users with the most impactful/biggest problems. slightly different twist that i've been exploring

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:00

Love this. One of the biggest things I learned in WWO book writing: โ€œAnd the deeper the functional specialty, the more we need matrixed structures, where functional owners can define the WHO and HOW, and the product or value stream owner can own the WHAT and WHEN and WHY.โ€

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Chris Combe at TeamForm11:04:05

this is a great frame, I recently drew a picture orthogonal to this but this gives me some new ideas for consideration ..

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:04:36

With healthy tension in balancing the WHAT and WHEN, so that not a feature factory.

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Chris Leeworthy11:04:33

โ€œgrungy ops workโ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:35

โ€œThe role is a career dead end. Ambitious engineers will not bite.โ€ (?!?)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:10

There is no community, so they canโ€™t grow โ€” and thus, career dead-end, because thereโ€™s no path inside that product team! (Ah!!!)

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting11:04:51

isnโ€™t it also the super-hero anti-pattern that will kill in laziness all the others?

โ˜๏ธ 3
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:42

Interesting โ€” wired wrong, SREs lose sight of the business goals, become order takers, etc.

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Luca Ingianni11:04:13

Yep, they fall back to being an ops department

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)11:04:18

I think it can make sense as a temporary setup, SREs as enablers for the product team. But the product teams must get an ops mindset eventually, not always rely on embedded SREs

Luca Ingianni11:04:25

Agreed Stรฉphane, but as my grandmother likes to say, nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Christof Leng (Google)11:04:47

We actually do "embedded SRE" temporarily (for a few months/quarters) to have individual engineers deeply embedded in a critical project, working hand in hand with their Dev counterparts. But they still have their home team and will go back there fully when the project is done.

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Chris Leeworthy11:04:47

I fear the SREโ€™s become the doers of โ€œgrungy ops workโ€ instead of individuals in multiple teams

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:59

โ€œpeanut-buttering SRE across to many engagement, when thereโ€™s insufficient coherence between themโ€ โ€” SRE cannot get deeper understanding to add value.

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๐Ÿ˜ข 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:52

โ€œfungibleโ€ in this case is good? Meaning, the dev generalist can be deployed for more purposes to create business value?

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement11:04:11

this is why i am moving away from prescribing devs as just the 'how' and i'm pushing product thinking to be more about orchestrating developers to the users/customers with the biggest problems. I think the danger in saying product owns the why, what and when is in the 'what' statement. Product mgrs give devs stories and requirements and don't give them access to the actual problem first hand from the users

Christof Leng (Google)11:04:15

I agree. Developers need to know a bit about everything. But they need specialists like product, SRE, etc. as force multipliers. Developers should be a "fungible resource" in the sense that they can flexibly shift their focus.

Stephen Thomas11:04:22

๐Ÿ‘ Reduce meeting load ๐Ÿ‘

George Murage11:04:17

Loving the cat imagery

๐Ÿ˜ป 1
Luca Ingianni11:04:33

"only be oncall when it supports SRE's engineering roadmap" ๐Ÿ’ฅ

George Murage11:04:44

SRE != Ops teamโ€ฆ oops ๐Ÿ™ˆ ๐Ÿ™ˆ

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:04

(Regarding the cats: โ€œdoes he remind you of a James Bond villian?โ€ someone said, after @cleng said โ€œyou only understand a system once you see it on fireโ€ฆ in productionโ€ฆโ€œ. ). ๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜†

๐Ÿ˜† 4
๐Ÿ˜น 1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:04:23

โ€œTraining Is Useful, But There Is No Substitute For Experience.โ€, Colonel Rosa Klebb, From Russia With Love

Christof Leng (Google)11:04:49

I was planning to stroke a cat while sharing my plans with you and the rest of the world from my secret base... ๐Ÿ˜

๐Ÿ˜ธ 1
Chris Leeworthy11:04:16

Just going back to SRE struggling with a bigger picture, thereโ€™s an old saying โ€œwhen youโ€™re up to your backside in alligators itโ€™s difficult to remember the original plan was to drain the swampโ€. If your SREโ€™s are drowning in incidents then theyโ€™ll struggle to see wider business goals.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:41

โ€œthey should be able to get access to source codeโ€. (Ha!)

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)11:04:50

@cleng Wasn't there a mention earlier that SREs have a high work satisfaction โ€“ was that in @jpetoff's talk? It would be interesting to see where the difference of perception is. I tend to agree with Christof's view.

Christof Leng (Google)12:04:29

Antipatterns are things that CAN happen. They are not a reality everywhere. It would say that antipattern #4 is actually the easiest to avoid / fix. But I have seen it happening and it can be disastrous for the success of production improvements.

Marck Oemar11:04:58

โ€œSREโ€™s should know how to codeโ€ !

โ˜๏ธ 2
Christof Leng (Google)12:04:13

...and they should actually use that skill.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:58

Wait. โ€œSRE is preceived as boring?โ€ (Said never?!?). ๐Ÿ˜†

George Murage11:04:10

โ€œDonโ€™t force people to be SREs.โ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:50

Oh, my. โ€œWhen SREs makes production more complicated than it needs to meโ€ฆ not necessary with malicious intent.โ€ I think thatโ€™s how it feels when someone says to dev, โ€œhereโ€™s the kubernetes platform you need to run your container in. good luck!โ€ (Similar to what @henrikrhoegh from VELUX described in the last talk)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:04:11

Oh, nice simpler platform โ€” okay, fire all the SREs!!! ๐Ÿ˜†

Stephen Thomas11:04:21

My goal has always been to work myself out of a job. I mentioned that in an interview and saw looks of horror on peopleโ€™s faces. Needless to say I didnโ€™t take that job.

Christof Leng (Google)12:04:12

We actually have a saying that you should automate yourself out of your current job every 18 months... because if you don't, you're not really adding value and will eventually drown in ops work. However, that doesn't mean you will be out of "job", it means you're ready for the next "job". There's always the next, bigger problem to solve.

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Chris Leeworthy11:04:11

Would there be any value in rotating some people into and out of SRE roles so that they get a wider picture?

โ“ 2
Christof Leng (Google)12:04:06

Totally! We have a program called "mission control" where software engineers do a 6-month rotation in SRE. They get all the training new SREs get, do the same project work, and go oncall for our production services. Afterwards, they can go back to their old role, or apply for a role in SRE.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]11:04:36

"complex infrastructure that only can maintain": how to keep a lid an implicit incentive for people to make themselves indispensable (not only SRE)?

Stephen Thomas11:04:29

I think itโ€™s not necessarily โ€œpeople making themselves indispensableโ€ itโ€™s also people struggling with determining proper abstractions

Vlad Ukis12:04:25

people need a vision of the future; you need to paint an attractive picture for them about what would improve for them if that complex infrastructure only they can maintain disappeared

Marck Oemar11:04:42

Doesnโ€™t it all begins and ends with consensus (or lack of) on โ€œyou build it, you run it?โ€

Christof Leng (Google)12:04:45

Yes. That's a fundamental change in the dynamics. But most of the points in this talk are, I believe, orthogonal to whether there is someone outside of Dev who runs production (could be an ops team that's separate from SRE).

Vlad Ukis12:04:04

there is a wide spectrum between "you build it, ops run it" and "you build it, you run it" - this is the space to explore in your particular org

George Murage11:04:13

Wowโ€ฆ maybe we are not doing SREโ€ฆ

George Murage11:04:02

Scoring 3+ on the 5 anti patterns ๐Ÿ™ˆ

Luca Ingianni11:04:12

Well, I'm sure you get them less wrong than last year. Maybe you can continue being less wrong about them? ๐Ÿ“ˆ

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Christof Leng (Google)12:04:59

Are these anti-patterns hurting you? Are the ideas from my talk helpful to mitigate them?

Marck Oemar11:04:21

Thanks @cleng. Lotโ€™s to ponder on.

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Alex (IT Revolution, Conference Staff)11:04:34

โœ… Please take a moment to answer these two questions to help us improve the programming: https://forms.gle/frVdffNr7pYdNfmW6

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting11:04:25

@cleng amazing talk, and lovely anti-patterns list ๐Ÿ˜ป. Itโ€™d be fantastic if you have some measurement to make them objective to facilitate the discussion with leadership flipping difficult conversation from perspective to data. If not; it would be amazing to create some

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)11:04:34

Same issue with DevEx as well โ€“ how can we sell the value of reducing cognitive load for developers?

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting11:04:46

that one I guess is easier. Gallup report on engagement, plus infinite potential burnout report, combined with McKinsey report on upskilled dev efficiency VS disengaged unskilled ones. DevX has more data, at least that Iโ€™m aware of, but Chris topic is an unexplored world (for me at least)

Akis Sklavounakis11:04:08

Shameless plug, but at Gartner we have published extensively on the subject and we would be happy to talk to your leadership. Example publications: โ€ข How to Build Executive Support for Developer Experience Initiatives โ€ข The State of Developer Experience Initiatives: Benchmarking Data From the Field Map the developer journey, pilot, connect to org priorities, manage the messaging to get buy-in. We've got case studies and testimonials as well to support clients.

Christof Leng (Google)12:04:55

Yeah, I agree that data would be very helpful and that there isn't much in this space yet. My team is actually exploring some ideas in that space, but it's too early to talk about them yet. If anyone here has data (or ideas what to measure), I would be very interested to hear about it!

๐Ÿ™ 2
Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)12:04:05

The problem I see from people setting salaries is often a feeling of "these devs get paid better than us, and they are complaining that their work is too difficult"

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting12:04:07

Iโ€™ll try to connect with you @cleng with the data Iโ€™ve and the ideas I made with them. Iโ€™m really curious to understand if we find some interesting behavioral engineering patterns

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Christof Leng (Google)12:04:28

If you pay your software engineers in SRE worse than your software engineers in Dev, you have a big problem.

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)12:04:47

I agree โ€“ when SREs are seen as "just ops", it often becomes the case...

Bernard Voos (FedEx)11:04:32

Great talk @cleng ! I do see parallels to your antipatterns in my org - I see our Rely/SRE team is behaving like an oncall/ops team.

Slackbot12:04:10

Reminder: The talks are starting again in 5 minutes. Start navigating your way back to your browser. https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F06V49GSELX/timer.png

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution12:04:34

โšก Time to have some fun with Lightning Talks! Please welcome: โ€ข @michele.brissoni856, Independent SW Craftsmanship & DevOps Coach โ€ข @nathen.harvey, DORA Lead and Developer Advocate, Google Cloud โ€ข @sascha.schaerich, Lead DevOps Evangelist, Deutsche Telekom IT โ€ข @marceloancelmo, Head of Solution Architecture, KPMG Swizterland โ€ข Neru Obhrai, Neru Obhrai, Principal Consultant, Radtac

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upvotepartyparrot 1
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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:06

Wooooo!

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting13:04:39

Welcome to my virtual office, and where we run all our dojos. We canโ€™t be more happy about Gather Town and the gamification effect it produces working with devs

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:45

Hahahaha! So good!

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)12:04:30

thatโ€™s a pretty scary looking monsterโ€ฆ

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting13:04:26

yeah at that time before I refined the idea of the dojo it was indeed a scary monster. Happy that the presentation transfers that feeling ๐Ÿ™‚

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:04:48

@michele.brissoni856 out of curiosity which text to image tool did you use?

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting12:04:12

Ciao @jonathansmart1, all the details are in my https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/behind-scenes-revolution-tech-leadership-summit-michele-brissoni-pkdtf/?trackingId=xQcYNnNFRLywXzqc7F7ssQ%3D%3D in the news letter the forge of unicorns. short answer: I experimented with DaVinci, ChatGPT, MS Designer

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:04:41

Wow! "Once the script was locked in, it was time to take it to the next level. I decided to explore http://play.ht, an AI text-to-speech service, to create a voice clone of myself, ensuring it could flawlessly deliver the talk within the allotted time. Cloning my voice? Now, that's some next-level tech wizardry! ๐Ÿง™ Especially considering my dyslexia! ๐Ÿค And hey, if you're wondering, yes, I even applied a nerdy test-first approach to preparing my conference!"

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting12:04:36

@jonathansmart1 the perversion to be a TDD coach is addictive ๐Ÿ˜› so I had to test my talk before doing it ๐Ÿ˜„

upvotepartyparrot 1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:04:44

OKR at board level: North Stars. Neuroscience & Behavioural Psychology. Nice.

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting13:04:03

OKR combined with behavior engineering can be really powerful. I guess it aligns pretty well with the BVSSH framework of OKR as hypotheses on outcomes.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:46

The image of the dojos on the staircase was awesome โ€” didnโ€™t even think things like that could be done with text-to-image!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:59

(the regularity of the dojos and labels on stairs, etc.)

Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting12:04:53

AI is changing the gameโ€ฆ if you know what you wanna achieve now the possibility co-working with AI are simply astonishing.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:02

PSA: it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out how to access Gemini 1.5 โ€” hereโ€™s the link. IIUC, API access is free until may 5 or so. https://gemini.google.com/app

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nathenharvey12:04:17

Encourage your team to reflect on how theyโ€™re doing today. This yearโ€™s DORA survey is open now and includes expanded exploration of AI, platform engineering, and developer experiece. Take the survey and discuss the insights youโ€™ve gained in your next team retro - https://dora.dev/survey

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:37

Thanks @michele.brissoni856 and @nathen.harvey! And now 5.5 lessons from @sascha.schaerich!!!! ๐ŸŽ‰

dora-love 1
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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)12:04:48

โ€œtransformation will take longer than you thinkโ€ yyyyesssssโ€ฆ

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)12:04:39

โ€œitโ€™s more about culture and mindset than technologyโ€ also yyyyesssssโ€ฆ

๐Ÿ’ฏ 4
Jรผrgen Pointinger12:04:45

Isn't it always on People over Technology ๐Ÿ˜‰

๐ŸŽฏ 1
Sascha Schรคrich (DevOps Evangelist at Deutsche Telekom IT)13:04:11

In the end of course, but at least in our company we started out focusing a lot on the Technology-Stuff, maybe because that is easier and quicker to understand?

Jรผrgen Pointinger13:04:55

Totally understand this. I notice that here too. Technology is always there and the first look is on the closest. With the right questions, we can broaden our perspective, which leads to better conversations and better outcomes.

๐ŸŽฏ 1
Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)13:04:55

I'm working with a company that tried changing their ways of working several ways / times and every time they ended up being up each others throats (2000 employees), now we have worked with them on a transformation in terms of processes, mindset and tooling. 3 years later we are seeing finally the culture change. Rewarding..... but ohhhh so slow ๐Ÿ˜ฌ

Jรผrgen Pointinger10:05:07

We need to give people the opportunity to unlearn what they have learned in the past - everyone has a backpack - and then learn new things. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:57

โ€œespecially for German companiesโ€ โ€œespecially for companies like usโ€. ๐Ÿ˜†

๐Ÿ˜† 3
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:04:52

Erin Meyer, The Culture Map

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Vlad Ukis13:04:31

@jonathansmart1 where is that from?

Vlad Ukis13:04:37

I only know a smaller version from the book

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:04:28

A Google search for 'erin culture map'

Vlad Ukis05:04:20

wow, there are tons of pics like that online ๐Ÿ™‚

Vlad Ukis05:04:25

thx for the hint!

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Matthew Pickles12:04:46

What's the difference between English punctuality and German punctuality? (I will permit myself that one ๐Ÿ˜‚)

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Luca Ingianni12:04:20

OK I'll bite. What is it? ๐Ÿ™‚

Matthew Pickles12:04:47

It might be 10 minutes?

Sascha Schรคrich (DevOps Evangelist at Deutsche Telekom IT)12:04:50

So true! We recently did a MagentaExchange with 14 people from Germany and Europe, and 14 people from T-Mobile US, and the difference was noticeable, e.g. when getting everyone on a bus!

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)12:04:13

Yes! A Beard joke ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿง” 2
1
Sascha Schรคrich (DevOps Evangelist at Deutsche Telekom IT)12:04:00

Not a joke, the color draining is realโ€ฆ ;-)

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting12:04:09

@sascha.schaerich, we need more bald guys with long beard! ๐Ÿ˜„ ๐Ÿ‘

๐Ÿ˜‚ 1
Luca Ingianni13:04:39

I stopped delivering DevOps trainings at Deutsche Telekom in 2019 or so, so I was able to rescue some colour in my beard. It's sort of salt-and-pepper now ๐Ÿ˜„

Sascha Schรคrich (DevOps Evangelist at Deutsche Telekom IT)13:04:21

So you got out just in time apparentlyโ€ฆ ;-)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:39

What fantastic tips on mentors and mentees, codified at KPMG Switzerland! @marceloancelmo

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Marcelo Ancelmo13:04:52

Glad you liked it @genek. We got a lot of positive feedback after we put the mentees on the driving seat on our mentoring program

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:41

you can declare what you want to learn, or what you want to teach โ€” nice!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:04:58

โ€ฆand tapping into other KPMG member firms!

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Matthew Pickles13:04:51

Homemade artwork! Is that true?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:57

An email from HRโ€ฆ. uh ohโ€ฆ.

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Matthew Pickles13:04:29

I think we get back to the empathy theme, for me that's the basis.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:02

Iโ€™ll be honest, Iโ€™ve heard about neurodiversity, and mostly thought of it in context of children and school โ€” its implications for the workspace was startling and sobering. Which is what made Neruโ€™s talk so memorable!

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Luca Ingianni13:04:24

You know, I have a neurodivergent kid, and I suspect I'm neurodivergent myself -- but I've never actively considered how this topic applied to my coworkers -- or indeed to myself. I'm kinda baffled at myself right now.

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Luca Ingianni13:04:03

As someone with a neurodivergent child, that talk really hits home

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:36

Great topic. Too many cursors on a Miro or Mural board is something I've had feedback on as not being good for neurodivergence.

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat22:04:47

I like the cursor parking lots. ๐Ÿ™‚ [ ] Cursor parking lot

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:11

iโ€™m so glad weโ€™re covering this topic. ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ™Œ

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:04

@genek thanks for creating the space for this!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:27

Thank you @neru for sharing and Gene for including this talk!

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Jochen Bรผhler13:04:27

IMO the best lightning talk!

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Nigel Budd13:04:43

I'm so impressed with the breadth and variety of topics covered by this conference

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting13:04:12

really touching talk, as a neurodiverse guy (ahhh BTW Mike in the presentation, it wasnโ€™t me ๐Ÿ˜„)

Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:04:12

โ›ต Up next is @lalle, founder of a company called Scling that does data engineering. He's here to teach us something that is relevant to every organization in his session, Industrialised Data - The Key to AI Success.

๐ŸŽ‰ 3
Bernard Voos (FedEx)13:04:14

Never heard of SCARF before - really interesting! Thanks Neru

Jan Hartman13:04:43

This picture has a nice visual on neurodivergence in the workplace. It is in Dutch however, but it can easily be translated with Google translate or Deepl.

๐Ÿ”– 1
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Jan Hartman13:04:37

It contains 4 types of neurodivergence with so-called โ€˜spiky profilesโ€™: peak strengths and valley weaknesses.

Luca Ingianni13:04:14

Very interesting, thank you. And trying to understand the Dutch makes it even more fun ๐Ÿ™‚

Jan Hartman13:04:18

It should not be that hard. One of the four profiles is exactly the same abbreviation in English and two of the other three profiles only differ one letter. ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

Lloyd P13:04:52

In education, it's interesting to explore how AI can help teachers scale their lessons for neuro divergent learners by adapting lesson plans into multiple delivery formats almost on the fly. Like giving every learner their own personal teaching assistant that can adapt to their specific learning needs. No reason for that to be contained to just children's learning environments

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:10

โ€œLeader vs. Rearโ€ <==> โ€œFirst vs. Worstโ€ <==> โ€œhigh vs. low performerโ€

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:32

It was interesting working with Dr. Steve Spear โ€” in manufacturing, itโ€™d be amazing to see an 8x difference between high vs. low. In tech, 3 orders of magnitude difference!

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:12

More contrasts: # of data-sets/usage per day

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:56

billions of datasets per day: Google 2016. It is joked that all Google is are a gazillion of microservices with protobufs, deserializing, transforming, serializing, and then sending to another microservice.

1
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:13

Spotify: Discover Weekly: just 3 engineers, 3 weeks; one of the most important services in Spotify history

๐Ÿ‘ 3
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:23

generated 40MM Daily Active Users!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:54

Imagine a world where that app team could just connect to the right relevant data set, connect it to some business logic, a button. With no approvals, coordination cost, etcโ€ฆ

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:26

All the data is there!!!! But devs canโ€™t get to it!!!

๐Ÿ’ก 3
Steve Pereira - Co-Author of Flow Engineering13:04:10

โ€œThe car is full of disappointmentsโ€ :melting_face:

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2
Matthew Pickles13:04:03

I call this the "with all this OTA stuff, i think I'll just get the bus" ๐Ÿ˜‚

Lars Albertsson13:04:50

TBH it is a magnificent car in most aspects, but the digital experience is missing so many opportunities. Which can be said for most cars. If I had known what I know today when I bought it, I would still have bought the same car. Even if I had infinite budget. So they do some things right. ๐Ÿ™‚

๐Ÿ‘ 1
Matthew Pickles13:04:03

That's exactly it, make the telemetry work for the customer and not against them!

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Akis Sklavounakis13:04:23

I don't think it's because the devs don't have access to the data. These are product management decisions.

2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:29

Dunno โ€” his story seems awfully familiar to meโ€ฆ

Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:31

it is always easy to blame product, engineers are smart they can influence outcomes too

Armand van der Merwe (TymeX)13:04:14

I was half listening to the lightning talks because I was trying and fighting to get my engineers access to basic datasets!

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Lars Albertsson13:04:17

I have spoken to devs and managers at Volvo, and they confirm that they don't have access to data. In order to do something with data, they have to fill in an application and get it approved by HQ. I once visited a bank that had not one, but two committee decisions before you could start writing code for a data pipeline.

๐Ÿ‘€ 2
Akis Sklavounakis13:04:38

Vehicles are not seen and made as a complete product. They are many parts bolted on. Except Tesla perhaps, where they started with the software and built a car around it.

Lars Albertsson13:04:30

Indeed. The car manufacturers essentially ship their org chart as a product experience. This clip with Ford's CEO is very insightful: https://youtu.be/HrNN6goQe50?si=dwUVUa1wl2GEu-GG

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:08

What could be so hard about data? ๐Ÿ˜†

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:43

Except for firmware drivers crashing, and randomly rebooting the displays and safety critical systems while driving. Even Tesla!

Steve Pereira - Co-Author of Flow Engineering13:04:10

This is so critical to digital twin and value stream management efforts

๐ŸŽฏ 3
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:15

โ€œwhatโ€™s missing is all the data plumbing, which enables people working with the data to do their work easily and well, and enables independence of actionโ€

๐Ÿ’ก 2
Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:15

โ€œwhatโ€™s missing is all the data plumbing, which enables people working with the data to do their work easily and well, and enables independence of actionโ€

๐Ÿ’ก 2
Luca Ingianni13:04:25

It's the same as in technical products in general, or indeed as in organisations. The interfaces are what's hard.

โ˜๏ธ 2
Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:44

the same with people - it is interactions that is hard (often between teams) but also within

โœ”๏ธ 1
Luca Ingianni13:04:28

... and they are easy to overlook. People see the objects much better than their relations

Lars Albertsson13:04:07

True indeed. The dynamics with data pipelines are somewhat different than for e.g. integration with microservices, since there is often wide coupling in the business logic. For microservices, each service typically has a few neighbours that it interacts with, and the coupling is small. In contrast, data pipelines that e.g. compute financial risk or detect fraudulent behaviour can consume data from across the company.

Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:30

what happened to data mesh?

๐Ÿ‘€ 2
Lars Albertsson13:04:17

The data mesh is an organisational pattern for scalability. It can be applied in both traditional data warehousing environment as well as in "industrial" data lake environments. A data mesh can work well to address scaling limitations, if a foundation of data democratisation is already in place. Most data mesh implementations that I see are in environments that are far from hitting scaling problems, where data democratisation has not been achieved, and they in practice end up enforcing existing data silos.

thankyou 1
Joachim13:04:34

The hype cycle of tech innovation:

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2
๐Ÿ’ธ 1
Stephen Thomas13:04:24

โ€œHow hard can it be?โ€ Itโ€™s just 0โ€™s and 1โ€™s

5
Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:39

until quantum computing ๐Ÿ™‚

upvotepartyparrot 2
Matthew Pickles13:04:08

No, no but there are 8 of them ๐Ÿ˜‚

Chris Leeworthy13:04:05

My father never understood what I did and used to say โ€œChris pushes buttons for a livingโ€. I mean technically he wasnโ€™t wrong butโ€ฆ ๐Ÿ˜„

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:04:18

๐Ÿ” And now, let's welcome @mik, CTO of Planview and author of Project to Product. He's here to speak with Gene about Decoupling from Foundational LLMs.

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Joachim13:04:52

The Checkbox Project - great case study!

Barbara Arnst13:04:46

Sooo very recognizable indeed!

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Lars Albertsson13:04:54

Thanks everyone for listening! I'll put up the slides online and post a link here. Please reach out to me at <mailto:lalle@scling.com|lalle@scling.com> or on LinkedIn if you have questions. Also, if you want more information on the "industrial" style of data engineering that I preach, have a look at https://www.scling.com/reading-list/ and https://www.scling.com/presentations/.

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Steve Pereira - Co-Author of Flow Engineering13:04:46

50 teams learning LLM intricacies and implementation means lots of separate parallel undifferentiated efforts

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:46

โ€ฆunless there is a shared consciousness, coordination, and intentionality on the decentralized experimentation. then it can be a major accelerator. but thatโ€™s really hard to doโ€ฆ

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Stephen Thomas13:04:01

Wow. I hadnโ€™t thought about the side effects on coupling of helping others learn prompt engineering.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:32

Coupling the wrong way. Not modularising. 24 people on centralised core re: LLMs (EAs?)

Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:36

do Data scientists write tests? ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)13:04:48

With AI coming in, I feel like they should ๐Ÿ˜ฌ

Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:28

meaning the data scientists will use AI to write the AI tests for the AI models? ๐Ÿ˜‰ what could go wrong

Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)13:04:26

Isn't this the same as developer writing unit tests that somehow always pass whether they should or not ๐Ÿ˜„

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting13:04:46

yup, eh ability to write tests, with the raise of AI starts IMHO to become a must to have skill not only as a developer. if we trust AI without having proofs it does what was the behaviour we requested to get help with, we can get out of control of a dangerous dog

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Matthew Pickles13:04:47

More clusters might be necessary for that? ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:20

Emergent. Have a set of Principles (Principle led, apply across contexts)

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:10

Biggest lesson: have conversations with architects and product leaders on product teams and AI teams (i.e. collaboration across disciplines)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:28

Low switching cost for LLMs. Don't know how they will evolve.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:26

abstraction is quite hard in that case... knowing where the "puck will go" or your APIs keep breaking.. let alone your teams and interactions

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:58

Optionality. Centralised to lower switching costs in the future.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:28

[Separate the interface from the implementation?]

Vlad Ukis15:04:45

not sure what you mean by that in this context...

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:51

Cost implication: product unviable if excess use of LLM

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:01

โ€œDonโ€™t know how they will evolve.โ€ but we do know how fast they are evolvingโ€ฆ which is :lightning: fast. makes this approach even more important.

Rebecca Davis13:04:00

I really like the focus on continuing to try things and learn as far as how folks work together and learn together and shifting when learning and data proves the need to. And not using new tech everywhere simply because it's new and cool but with so much strategic intent and connection to business needs and paired with a focus on decentralizing. Nailing it.

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Stephen Fishman13:04:04

Woot! Woot! So much goodness being shared on optionality! Can't wait for my closing talk with @mattmclartybc on creating scaled optionality

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Dan Sims13:04:45

Perfect timing? Just received an email from IT Rev telling me it's coming!

Stephen Fishman13:04:14

The talk or the book? We did have good news last week that our launch date moved up to September ๐ŸŽ‰๐Ÿ•บ

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:48

If decentralised, switching cost would be high [trading short term, medium term and long term]

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Akis Sklavounakis13:04:23

So is the core AI team at Planview a Platform team or an Enabling team (as per team topologies)?

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:44

I am guessing there is more than one team and platform teams are actually mean to be teams of teams according to Matthew and Manuel.. so it shoudl be a team of teams offering a platform that includes enabling, complicated subsystem and platforming etc..

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:25

then the stream aligned teams would be consuming the platforms through x-as-a-s (hopefully) which having an enabling team facilitate the onboarding and collaboration for future building / growth ..

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:45

if that model doesn't work the other teams will build their own to move more quickly so collab is critical

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:47

Principles. Optimise for your context.

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Kareen Kircher13:04:12

Basically unifying policies, but decentralizing implementation to suit team preferences, or technology innovations. That's how you can avoid getting locked into old technology, or bleeding at the edge of it.

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Steve Pereira - Co-Author of Flow Engineering13:04:10

This is the same challenge as early DevOps: DevOps engineer on every product team motivated the rise of platform team investments

Rebecca Davis13:04:26

Leaders block or unlock greatness. He's unlocking!

Jennifer Riggins13:04:47

Love @genekโ€™s end question for each!

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Stephen Thomas13:04:59

Organizational Debt is greater than tech debt. And much harder to address.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:58

especially if you dont have a way to visualise your cross functional teams and their interactions through out an org

Kareen Kircher14:04:09

@stevesargon, yes org debt > tech debt, but that addressing it might be considered "boiling the ocean." Plus, politically it's not as likely to be rewarded in the short or medium term.

Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:01

large scale re-orgs seldom solve problems

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Stephen Thomas14:04:19

@kareen agreed. But โ€ฆ

Stephen Thomas14:04:14

Also good point about there being no short term rewards. โ€œItโ€™s hard to get people to understand something whose job depends on not understanding itโ€ - forget where I got this quote

Kareen Kircher14:04:17

@stevesargon, as long as someone has his or her eyes wide open that there's risk and is comfortable embracing it, I say go for it. I'm something of a contrarian myself, always optimistic that there's an opportunity, but it's not for the weak.

Jennifer Riggins13:04:24

@mik maybe these could help in response to your first call out?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:04:32

Thank you so much, @mik!!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:04:46

๐Ÿฆ Up next is @sdc, Platform Engineer at DKB, the second-largest direct bank in Germany, here to present Introducing a Product-based Approach in an Engineering-focused Container Platform Team.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:57

๐ŸŽฅ Live! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)13:04:42

more slowification!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)13:04:43

@genek having fun living dangerously! ๐Ÿคฏ

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)13:04:44

+1 to a green room, and practice sessions

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)13:04:03

tech checks were already done!

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)13:04:34

well, they were offered to every single presenter ๐Ÿค“

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)13:04:46

Yes, on the list @genek - green room, โœ…

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Stephen Thomas13:04:07

video breakout rooms/sessions might help with green rooms

Klaus Hebsgaard13:04:48

Is there a "what is Gene drinking channel"? Looks interesting

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)13:04:44

Starbucks Nitro Cold Brew. Though it is not for the faint of heart. I tried my first one, had about 1/4 and felt like I was either going to have a heart attack or sprint somewhere. โšก

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Chris Combe at TeamForm13:04:49

staging environment? with a change board for talkers to move to live? (kidding )

Jochen Bรผhler13:04:04

I just noticed that @genek seems to have his library sorted by colour! Nice! ๐Ÿ™‚

Lloyd P13:04:08

Doing a live post mortem, always learning, always improving!

Chris Leeworthy13:04:28

view it as an unplanned investment ๐Ÿ˜‰

Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)13:04:29

The thing I like about the events with lots of engineers is that when there's a problem, there's about 20 different ways presented on how to resolve them ๐Ÿ˜„

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:38

Drinking more than one of these has some interesting side effects. At minimum, it does make you feel alive! ๐Ÿ˜‚ ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:15

A live event is not enough?! :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:28

I guess 2am is an early start

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)13:04:33

See my note in another thread. I felt like I was going to have a cardiac event or sprint somewhere.

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting13:04:40

looks like 10 espresso โ˜• in a can ๐Ÿฅซ ๐Ÿ˜„

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]13:04:36

ETLS sponsored by Starbucks Nitro! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Luca Ingianni13:04:17

BTW, speaking of tech: I observeds several times today that my video stream was such low quality that I couldn't read the slides. No idea what to do about taht other than to change to a different platform

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:04:04

Has been good for me.

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Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:42

been fine for me in London (UK)

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)14:04:08

It has been good for me as well (Munich, Germany)

Luca Ingianni14:04:06

Well, that's the confusing thing. I'm in Munich too, begind a GBit connection, so there's no reason other than the platform being somehow funny ๐Ÿคท

Vlad Ukis15:04:24

ok for me - Germany

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:04:07

โ€œcommunication often was focused on [arcane apsects of infrastructure] engineering, which was not helpful to people without infrastructure backgroundโ€

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:44

โ€œwhich VPC, which EC2 instance.โ€ (and other stuff devs donโ€™t care about)

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:09

โ€œloggingโ€ (and other stuff devs donโ€™t care about) ๐Ÿ˜† My week learning about Java logging was on the one hand super useful, because I finally understood what goes where, but OTOH, I got utterly no satisfaction or joy out of it, because I didnโ€™t actually care โ€” I just wanted to see my logging statements!

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)14:04:04

Devs should care about what to log and how to log, but not the intricate infrastructure details

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:30

i.e., I really didnโ€™t care. I just want to see my #$@! logs.

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Chris Leeworthy14:04:05

Itโ€™s another kind of decoupling, you want to get your logs without worrying about which mechanism is providing them

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Klaus Hebsgaard14:04:58

It seems a lot of companies are building DevX and platforms and it seems there are many commonalities Just like k8s arose from a common need do you see a common platform)DevX open source offering arise?

Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:53

that is why things like backstage exist to not reinvent the wheel especially where it is non-differntiating for a company

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Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:33

but form a wardley map perspective many of these topics are still quite early so over time they will converge etc.. we see DX already happening there e.g. DX, LinearB, Jellyfish and many more..

Klaus Hebsgaard14:04:41

Precisely there must be a higher level of abstraction that we can all benefit from

Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:05

that is precisely what backstage tries to do with its plugin architecture

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat13:04:56

To me, Jellyfish is more what we call "Engineering Ops". It serves management more than devs. Developers really don't want to be measured on their productivity.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:23

Love it. To tie this to @mik talk: platform is evolving โ€” I want to be completely indifferent to the logging framework. Tell me what to do so I can see my logs. Change it as much as you want!

Vasileios Konofaos14:04:49

@sdc How you were able to understand what is / is not clear for the platform? surveys?

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)14:04:07

Is your question related to the heat map? In that case, I meant how well-defined the capabilities are for the platform team itself.

Vasileios Konofaos14:04:17

i was more looking for a feedback loop. Thank you

Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)14:04:55

We are not using surveys, we rely on direct contact with product teams for the moment.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:01

โ€œpeople not used to thinking so abstractly about the serviceโ€ โ€” often cared too much about the implementation details.

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Stephen Thomas14:04:16

Itโ€™s not just understanding/communicating value, itโ€™s being able to answer โ€œHow will we know if we are adding value?โ€

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Kareen Kircher14:04:36

@mik, as far back as 2017 I came across TaskTop and shortlisted it for a client project! It's great to see how good products continue to evolve.

Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:44

interesting to see risk as a lever for value. - that is a nice frame

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Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:59

low value is CEO goes to jail for poor compliance..

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Stephen Thomas14:04:51

Itโ€™s too easy to get sucked into and enamored with the technology you are using/building and lose site of the problems we need to solve. Problems not just for our customers, but our customers customers.

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Stephen Thomas14:04:11

Getting people to take a systems thinking viewpoint is challenging.

Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:48

getting people to do anything is challenging.. invite over inflict !

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Chris Atkinson14:04:54

@stevesargon have you looked at John Seddon's 'Check' model for this? Great way to measure and explore a system, expose the conditions, assumptions and thinking that is driving current problems and then gain buy in to solve them end to end

Chris Atkinson14:04:34

It was designed for use in customer service operations but I feel translates well into software delivery with a few tweaks, happy to discuss

Stephen Thomas14:04:30

@chris.atkinson funny you should mention Seddon, my book club recently finished https://beyondcommandandcontrol.com/beyond-command-and-control-book/

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Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:35

great book โ˜๏ธ:skin-tone-2:

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Chris Combe at TeamForm14:04:07

key learning for me in that was failure demand vs value demand.. your contact centres can play a huge role to learning from customers

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)14:04:39

yes โ€“ this is actually one thing I had in mind when saying that everybody should have a product mindset. This kind of feedback is difficult to see "from the inside" otherwise.

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Chris Atkinson14:04:56

@chriscombe they really are your eyes and ears when it comes to gaining real customer insight

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Matthew Pickles14:04:16

Just don't ask me about the 'table service' ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Jochen Bรผhler14:04:42

@sdc I have witnessed the complete relaunch of DKB user interface (Browser and app) as a customer and am really impressed. The bank switched from a very old-school interface to a modern and easy to use interface within few releases and it still gets better all the time. Probably the platform improvements made all of this possible, so thank you for that and for the interesting talk. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)14:04:27

Thanks for your feedback! The particular platform I was talking about wasn't involved though, so we unfortunately cannot take credit for that ๐Ÿ™‚

Vlad Ukis15:04:52

I am a customer too. I can also see great improvements in UX. Thx!

Stephen Thomas14:04:55

Oh No!!! Has @genek crashed from a caffeine over dose ๐Ÿ˜ฑ

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:04:56

Thank you so much, @sdc!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:35

https://a.co/d/2a8qdYq The Async-First Playbook: Remote Collaboration Techniques for Agile Software Teams by [Sumeet Gayathri Moghe]

George Murage14:04:19

Just have to love ETLSโ€ฆ reading list has grown exponentially last 48 hours ๐Ÿ˜

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Klaus Hebsgaard14:04:26

Could you maybe share your reading list?

George Murage14:04:38

My working list in no particular order 1. Co-intelligence: living and working with AI 2. The async-first playbook 3. Platform Engineering Maturity model - https://tag-app-delivery.cncf.io/whitepapers/platform-eng-maturity-model/ 4. Team topologies 5. Transformed by Marty Cagan

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)14:04:54

Does @genek & co provide a reading list after the event? That would be awesome!

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)15:04:50

Hereโ€™s a (not super) photo of a sticker we had a our Las Vegas Summit last year. It is our IT Revolution Starter Pack of books, Keep in mind it doesnโ€™t include new titles just released in 2024!

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)15:04:02

*This is also not a full listing of the IT Revolution library. ๐Ÿ™‚

Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)15:04:45

Awesome, thanks @mvk842! ๐Ÿ™

Chris Leeworthy14:04:26

Forgive my ignorance but what is the bottom of the hour?

Chris Leeworthy14:04:35

thank you ๐Ÿ™‚

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Slackbot14:04:16

Reminder: The final talks of the Summit are starting in 5 minutes. Start navigating your way back to your browser. https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F06V49GSELX/timer.png

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:04:32

๐ŸŽฌ And now, please welcome @bcipot Senior Security Engineer at Synopsys. He's here to present How Cyber Threats Can Turn into an Unwanted Real-life Hollywood Blockbuster, teaching us about the epic level of cybersecurity issues that every modern technology organization faces.

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Lloyd Passingham (Arbor Education)14:04:17

https://danielmiessler.com/ Cannot recommend Daniel's work enough! His Unsupervised Learning Newsletter/podcast is really concise and very informative

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)14:04:39

Good chats on Gather...

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)14:04:00

I really love the talks we have had in Gather today. So many interesting, big and relevant topics! ๐Ÿ’› ๐Ÿ™

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting07:05:34

itโ€™s a pity it was too short ๐Ÿ˜„

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:14

One of the most remarkable parts of the story: the Debian build servers are taken down so they can be rebuilt from scratch, presumably because they were assumed to have been potentially compromised. (!!!!)

Matthew Pickles14:04:18

Can't have been because only MacGyver could do that ๐Ÿ˜‚

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:05

Fantastic detailed writeup of the XZ timeline: https://research.swtch.com/xz-timeline

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:56

Interestingly, my unrewarding week learning about Java logging was 30 days before the Log4J event. ๐Ÿ˜†

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:49

โ€ฆand what if OpenSSH wasnโ€™t actually the real target? https://twitter.com/RealGeneKim/status/1782460738570944709

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:15

BTW, while writing the WWO book, I became addicted to the โ€œDarknet Diariesโ€ podcast โ€” the episode on markets for 0-days, some of the ransomware industrial complex, was so good. https://darknetdiaries.com/

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:51

Some faves: โ€ข Ep 126: REvil (ransomware complex) โ€ข Ep 123: Newswire hacks (to get early access to earnings reports) โ€ข Ep _: Click Here โ€œLapsus$โ€ โ€ข Ep 100: NSO: spyware โ€ข Ep 98: Zero Day Brokers (!!!) โ€ข Ep 73: WannaCry โ€ข Ep 54: NotPetya (mentioned by @jonathansmart1 โ€ข Ep 53: Shadow Brokers (about the NSA toolchain)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:02

Just to name a few. ๐Ÿ˜† I gained so much appreciation about the vast economies that power the zero-day marketplace, ransomware, and what nation-states do.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:45

How many transitive dependencies to integrate instagram and slack โ€”

Kareen Kircher14:04:07

With everything that needs to be integrated, automation is a never-ending journey.

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting14:04:44

I was reading lately that EU commission decided to force the SBOM for security issue indeed to evaluate dependencies injection

Luca Ingianni14:04:59

I alone have several friends who make good money analysing dependency trees

Abigail Burke14:04:55

Great presentation @bcipot!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:04:04

Thank you so much, @bcipot!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:04:48

๐Ÿ“ฆ Up next is @jacob.brank, Lead Product Manager at Forto and @andy.duncan, Head of Engineering at Equal Experts. They're here to present: How Forto Solved Their Global Freight Trading Strategy Problem

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:28

Interesting trivia fact: I met @andy.duncan in 2010 at Mountain View DevOpsDays run by @patrick.debois256 @jwillis @damon!

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat15:04:04

Was that the one in the really strange warehouse/garage sort of location? If so, I was there and met @patrick.debois256 and @jwillis there for the first time as well. I was one of maybe 5-8 women. I think it was Patrick who found the women and got us all together for lunch at a picnic table, haha.

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat15:04:38

I think we were from IBM, Etsy, Netflix, Chef, and... somewhere else.

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat15:04:20

Patrick was talking about community building and John was talking about Deming. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Andy Duncan (Equal Experts)06:04:31

I believe it was https://legacy.devopsdays.org/events/2010-us. My strongest recollection was being blown away hearing @allspaw for the first time. And then a casual pizza with the devs from IMVU, talking about Continuous Deployment. ๐Ÿ™‚

Gerald Benischke14:04:20

Argh, I'm sorry I couldn't make that talk - but I hope the canonical comic got a mention - I made a slight variation: https://infosec.exchange/@beny23/112234581994347708

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:53

Check out #C04ED43AQAC โ€” all messages tagged with bookmark emoji gets copied there, which people have tagging! (@jeff.gallimore: we should include that in the โ€œinstruction manual for the conferenceโ€)

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:44

How hard could it be to match supply and demand? ๐Ÿ˜†

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:39

Freight forwarder own no ships โ€” thatโ€™s the capital intensive business

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:03

I learned that most of the actually shippers are privately owned โ€” a fascinating business!!!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:50

How do they do it? Excel spreadsheets and PDF files!!!

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Roman Lublinski (Delivery Manager at EPAM)15:04:38

plus teletypes, faxes and paper originals sent by couriers worldwide... )

Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)15:04:25

This is mind blowing to me in 2024. And it happens even in our own company... You know, the one known for automation and DevOps. I think it just shows how far from the ideal the world still is

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:26

imagine what might happen when freight was promised to get somewhere, but it didnโ€™t make it on the freighter, and the firefighting that would happen to get it to where it needed to go, given very finite shipping capacityโ€ฆ

Akis Sklavounakis14:04:41

Shipping is a fascinating business with a lot of long term thinking. 25 years ago they used to close deals on Yahoo Messenger. Trust is a major thing. OTOH, they are slow to adopt new tech. They are quite practical. If it works, don't change it.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:04:57

Matching supply and demand โ€” in energy markets, matching supply and time

Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:30

i really love it when constructs and concepts from completely different domains make it into technology.

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)15:04:50

Totally agree! With the companies I work with, I constantly see the same patterns repeating regardless of the industry. And often times those companies have convinced themselves that it's an issue specific to their company / field

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Jacob Brank15:04:19

Was a very good learning. It even seems kind of obvious in hindsight.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:00

Contracts! long vs short term, source, destination, volume

Matthew Pickles15:04:08

I was working on multi-modal freight software 25 years ago and got made redundant! I wonder if they'll ask me back now ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:46

What it looks like when problems occur

Joachim15:04:52

Love the problem space => solution space framing. Did you have to validate assumptions early on?

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Andy Duncan (Equal Experts)15:04:59

in another version of the presentation, I talked about trying to break the model over and over again.

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Andy Duncan (Equal Experts)15:04:35

a bit like TDD, find a scenario that you donโ€™t think will work, rather than looking for more scenarios to reinforce your current position.

Andy Duncan (Equal Experts)15:04:09

so we tried to find all the crazy combinations of ports and cargo-types, and etc. that forced us to adapt the model.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:12

Communication >> Optimization!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:52

Outcomes: increased gross profit! 30% increase in productivity of allocation -> booking

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:08

testimonial from their CFO

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Roman Lublinski (Delivery Manager at EPAM)15:04:17

And pricing based on the combination of To/From/Client/Line/Cargo type etc. is just another yet super complicated issue ๐Ÿ™‚

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Matthew Pickles15:04:22

Yes, and that's even before we get into how to pay it ๐Ÿ˜‚

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:33

Silos! In a totally different (for most of us) context

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:47

The problems that still remain! Opportunity!

Matthew Pickles15:04:07

And here's another one multi-nodal mobility solutions! Also been working on that one!

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Joachim15:04:15

What was the Deming quote again ...

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Joachim15:04:51

Sometimes they aren't that different either.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:04:06

Thank you, @jacob.brank and @andy.duncan!!

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Andy Duncan (Equal Experts)15:04:42

Thanks for the opportunity to share our story. I hope it encourages some folks to pursue simple solutions to even complex-appearing problems.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:04:47

๐Ÿ“š And now, bringing us to a close is @mattmclartybc and @internettitan, here to give us a preview of their upcoming book, Unbundling the Enterprise - APIs, Optionality, and the Science of Happy Accidents.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:57

โ€ฆand I met @internettitan in 2012, even before Phoenix Project came out, and SxSW!

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Stephen Fishman15:04:28

i never thought about it before... but our meeting was also a happy accident... I chose "When IT Says No" as a filler session before the one I wanted to attend (that I no longer remember ... no recollection of the name or subject).. I'm not even sure I attended anything else that day. Gene's tale of the schism between IT and Business was so visceral and on-target, I was hooked. It was exactly what I experienced in my role leading dev at Autotrader.

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:13

Pre-release copy available to review?

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Andreas Friedel15:04:08

@genekyour audio level was suddenly lower as previously

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:41

Blackbeard would also find treasure on the high seas by plundering other ships, matey!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:58

Decide late!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:02

The Steve Yegge Rant!!! ^^^

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:38

@internettitan Do you have link the Yegge talk?

Stephen Fishman15:04:33

@mattmclartybc might have this

Matt McLarty15:04:02

Steveโ€™s video explaining the whole thing: https://youtu.be/6GL7gykr1ZE?si=xkY-SLf-zIbJkQSy

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:11

The term I learned with Steve Spear: โ€œbecause they regained independence of action!โ€

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:01

i.e., AWS became a module in an of it self, to enable teams to work independently, and then eventually sold externally, becoming the largest contributor to profit in the company.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:44

APIs are just one way to reduce switching cost โ€” changes can be made on just one side of the interface!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:15

Independence of action <==> one side can change without coordinating with the other side.

Nigel Budd15:04:40

Princess Bride, now Bob Ross...I'm loving this presentation

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Nigel Budd15:04:32

every presentation should have Pirates

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Stephen Fishman15:04:34

We draw heavily from Bob in the book and he makes several appearances ๐Ÿ˜œ

Stephen Fishman15:04:49

a tale of 2 pirates... Greybeard (master of the old ways) and Captain Bob who lives in the land of 1,000 shovels

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Nigel Budd15:04:13

hope your book launch is successful

Nigel Budd15:04:40

thanks @internettitan

Stephen Fishman15:04:50

this one almost made it into the book.... we have a plan to surface it when we get closer to september launch

Stephen Fishman15:04:40

how can you have a book/talk about happy accidents without the GOAT?... All hail Bob!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:37

โ€œwhen looking at colleges or future mate, do you decide or commit early, or do you do this late? Late, because you have more informationโ€

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Stephen Thomas15:04:04

โ€œOopsโ€ reminds me of <Failure:%20Why%20Science%20Is%20so%20Successful%20Stuart%20Firestein|Failure: Why Science Is so Successful - Stuart Firestein> great book

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:15

Google Maps monetization case study was awesome โ€” I had no idea!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:10

Iโ€™ve used value exchange maps for 2 decades โ€” until their book, I didnโ€™t actually know where it came from!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:11

@internettitan @mattmclartybc โ€ฆand I canโ€™t remember what body of knowledge it came from. HELP! ๐Ÿ™‚

Matt McLarty15:04:27

Comes in many forms, but I think Roel and Jaap deserve special credit: https://www.thevalueengineers.nl/

Joachim15:04:40

David Bland's "Start with Learn" resonates with me a lot lately: https://www.precoil.com/articles/start-with-learn

๐Ÿ”– 1
Jรถrn Dinkla15:04:23

Great talk. "I hope you are not sea sick". Lol

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Armand van der Merwe (TymeX)15:04:50

After this trailer, how can we be expected to wait until September for the book!?

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Matthew Pickles15:04:51

We don't pirate... we originate!

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Stephen Thomas15:04:36

Thank you. Great Conference!!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:40

High engagement!!

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Mauno Ahlgren (Eficode DevOps Cloud)15:04:49

This was a very enjoyable and high quality event with tons of information to process. Thanks you!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:57

Great flow from the fire hose!!

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Neil Moore15:04:03

Awesome stuff, thank you all

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Nigel Budd15:04:05

huge thanks to all the speakers and organisers

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George Murage15:04:22

thank you. an excellent event with outstanding content

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]15:04:28

Thank you @genek @jeff.gallimore @annp @mvk842 @alexb!!!

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Joachim15:04:28

๐Ÿง 

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:30

Gene wins time management

Piotr Papros15:04:31

Hi Tempo, massive amount of inspiration and practice-based examples... it was really good

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Alex (IT Revolution, Conference Staff)15:04:38

Those quick two questions to help us improve the programming! https://forms.gle/WxkDzzLdavoT1ZRF7

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Kareen Kircher15:04:45

Yes congrats to the boss wife and everyone else on the planning team!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:46

Stay in touch on Slack!!!

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Andy Duncan (Equal Experts)15:04:50

Thank you, all!

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John Merry15:04:17

Thank you! has been an amazing learning experience and I have many leads ๐Ÿ™‚ I will spread the world

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]15:04:24

After drinking from a fire hydrant, things feel so quiet when DOES // ETLS wraps up!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:51

The tragedy of the summit is when it ends and the great lull beginsโ€ฆ Still wondering how to successfully keep the community communication and energy going between eventsโ€ฆ Thoughts everyone?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:04:59

Monthly โ€œteach me somethingโ€ sessions? cc @jeff.gallimore

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair16:04:11

or make it part of the quarterly event?

Matthew Pickles15:04:27

Thank you all! and thank you for at least tolerating my "self-deprecating" sense of humor (as I call it)! ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Joris De Cuyper15:04:19

Thanks again for organizing the watch party- made all the difference for me!

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Luca Ingianni15:04:21

lol Jeff can't remember the new name either ๐Ÿ˜„

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:23

we were talking about cognitive load earlier, right?

Luca Ingianni15:04:05

I'm mostly amused because sometimes I still need to resort to calling it "The conference that used to be called DevOps Enterporise Summit", and I'm glad I'm not alone in tripping over it. But at the end of two long days, you're forgiven for any and all verbal slip-ups. You led us through the conference masterfully.

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Jeff Gallimore (CTIO - Excella)15:04:32

weโ€™re all in this together โค๏ธ

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair15:04:30

At times I feel like my primary job is a video recommendation engine. ๐Ÿ™‚ Not a joke!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:04:40

You and the team curate and set the standards for what we get to experienceโ€ฆ. ๐Ÿ’•

Stephen Thomas15:04:56

More watch parties! I want one near me. Perhaps connect with DevOpsDays organizers to help coordinate/host (fyi Iโ€™m one for NYC)

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Kareen Kircher15:04:56

@stevesargon, let's do a New Jersey watch party next time. There are plenty of us in New Jersey.

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Stephen Thomas15:04:18

Definitely, letโ€™s keep in touch

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat15:04:39

Oh yeah, coordinating with DevOps Days is a great idea.

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat15:04:12

If we have one of these in the U.S. time zones, I bet Red Hat would host a watch party in Raleigh.

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Luca Ingianni15:04:28

I noticed so many people in Munich. We must have a watch party next time

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Stรฉphane Di Cesare (DKB)15:04:42

absolutely! Or a live event?

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Luca Ingianni15:04:56

yeah! We should do that

Luca Ingianni15:04:27

We must have a mini-DOES get-together, either at a "serious" location, or at least at a beer garden or something

Luca Ingianni15:04:14

I'm serious. Any Mรผnchners (or people visiting) reading this, I'm happy to serve as point of contact to organise something. Find me on linkedin or write to me at <mailto:luca@ingianni.eu|luca@ingianni.eu> and express interest, and I'll try to figure something out!

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting08:04:03

next time Iโ€™m gonna be in Mรผnich, Iโ€™ll ping you Luca ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Sara Correia - Equal Experts11:04:44

What a brilliant idea @luca!!

Akis Sklavounakis15:04:55

Good conference. Thank you for the learning and the interactions. Until the next one! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Luca Ingianni15:04:36

Thanks to the organising team, also to all of you in the chat who made the conference even more awesome!

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Michele (Mike) Brissoni - Brix Consulting15:04:13

thank you for the amazing summit! ๐ŸŽ‰

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Christian Knuth15:04:30

What a great format of a conference! Thanks so much to all organising it and presenting their stories! Very inspiring!

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Stephen Smyth15:04:12

๐Ÿ‘ This was my first summit, great experience and some truly valuable learnings which my colleagues and I can bring back into our organisation. Thank you to everyone who made it possible.

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Slackbot15:04:07

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Barbara Arnst15:04:19

Thank you everyone - past two days have been awesome! Looking fw to next edition! ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ™

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat21:04:35

@mik If you're still watching the chat... I'm really curious how you centralized prompt engineering into one repository. Can you explain in a little more detail how that's done? We'll probably want to repeat that pattern.

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Vlad Ukis05:04:39

interested in this as well!

Patrick Debois14:04:26

you could take inspiration of the langchain hub model - https://github.com/hwchase17/langchain-hub