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Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:05:00

🌟 Introducing @leesmith, Global Head of Fund Services Technology and @danielle.horney, Global head of Middle Office Product Delivery of HSBC, here to present, Driving the Right Culture – HSBC’s Value Stream Journey 🌟

Danielle Horney11:05:42

Afternoon everyone

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Lee Smith11:05:45

Hi everyone

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Lee Smith11:05:52

Thanks Ann and Gene for inviting us to participate...

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:49

So glad you are presenting, @leesmith and @danielle.horney!!!

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Luke Rettig - Target11:05:02

what are the differences between Tech and Product Delivery?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair11:05:08

Incredible drawings, by the way!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:05:34

(@lucas.rettig I’m eager to hear the answer to this β€” the area has a very complex value delivery chain…)

Lee Smith12:05:37

Good question Luke... Technology is the pure tech team doing dev, tech support etc., and Prod Delivery are in essence are the Change function on the Business side...

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Lee Smith12:05:34

We're very closely aligned teams working in cross-functional PODs together - so organisationally different, but aligned operationally to deliver

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Raj Fowler12:05:41

What were the biggest cultural challenges that existed that you needed to overcome? What you have achieved here is no easy achievement inside a large bank.

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Lilian Mitroglou - DevOps Coach12:05:58

What concrete steps did you go through to achieve the psychological safe environment and what were the challenges in this specific step?

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Danielle Horney12:05:13

I would say it's removing the onshore/offshore tags and become one team @raj.fowler

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Erik Greathouse12:05:34

@leesmith do your cross-functional PODs self-managed or is there a resource management effort applied?

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Lee Smith12:05:45

They are self managed as much as possible, but there is an element of high level resource management - goal to try and keep the PODs and static and consistent as possible

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Nigel Lester12:05:07

Business Value Calculator - used for technical changes too?

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Beat Buehler - Team Lead / Agile Coach - Helsana Health Insurance12:05:18

could you share the whole criterias of the business value calculator?

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Luke Rettig - Target12:05:33

lots of interest on this Business Value Calculator πŸ™‚. Do you separate out the β€˜value assessment/prioritization’ from the β€˜sequencing’ in which things get done? asking for a friend πŸ˜†

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Danielle Horney12:05:52

@lester2 Yes, even technical change will bring value to the business in some shape or from

Nigel Lester12:05:00

Great to hear. Forecasting value is very difficult though.

Raj Fowler12:05:26

Have you been capturing metrics to date and what trends have you seen? @sergiolopes709 - this is similar to the NatWest story in many ways.

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Lee Smith12:05:06

Thats a great point, and we have started to assess our flow metrics fairly recently so that we can see the true value metrics of the improvments and trends.... also measuring team satisfaction :)

Danielle Horney12:05:16

@lucas.rettig we use the business value to order the sequence things get done

Luke Rettig - Target12:05:27

@danielle.horney - i’ve run into issues where the highest value items have lots of dependencies. We’ve started to use it as a critical input into sequencing, but often times we can get more total value by doing the items with slightly less value, but but easier complexity

Luke Rettig - Target12:05:34

does that resonate?

Danielle Horney12:05:19

Yes, so we have also come up with a value that takes the BV and effort to give an overall score that helps with these kind of issues

Lee Smith12:05:33

Hi @lilian.mitroglou - the main elements here were around setting the right tone from the top with Danielle and my approach - being open, vulnerable and authentic as possible. The coaching element Danielle references was also key to allow people to be themselves and open up. And then also driving the awareness of the need of that psychologically safe environment. As Danielle referenced earlier, the other key element was working to build that collaboration cross-location within our teams to bring 'people' together, not just 'resources'...

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Nigel Lester12:05:48

Do wonder if we should move from Products to Services focus....

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Moira Cheng12:05:10

@lester2 Probably one for a BoF session with Project to Product. I've been contemplating similar especially as i've recently seen models where Agile teams are being set up with Product Owners and Service Owners who basically balance prioritization of the backlog for delivery.

Lee Smith12:05:22

Its a good point, as we really have a combination of Products and Services within our Value Streams...

Sergio Pereira-Lopes12:05:41

@raj.fowler I would agree, it is crucial you can measure in real terms the value or impact of the delivery.

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Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)12:05:55

@leesmith - how did you shared failure ?

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Lee Smith12:05:39

A really good question... key to this is ensuring the psycholoigcally sage culture is in place as the base, and this then enables people to be more open, removing their fear of judgement and using everything as a learning opportunity. The sharing itself is then done through a combination of Blogs, talks, team mettings etc., all in a very open environment

Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)12:05:48

Ahh I guess I need to get more down the pyramid to know more. May be sometime 1-1 conversation if possible.

Nigel Lester12:05:46

Is your budgeting cycle annual or more frequent?

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Danielle Horney12:05:59

@beat.buehler1 happy to share those offline

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Malte Fiala12:05:08

"Go and enjoy the ride" - Most important working advice in my opinion.

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Malte Fiala12:05:47

In german we say "Der Weg ist das Ziel", "The journey is the reward". Makes absolutely sense while working iteratively in a continuous learning environment.

Raj Fowler12:05:37

@danielle.horney - I think we could share some stories. Perhaps @sergiolopes709 and I can catch up with you and @leesmith - we can message directly

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Danielle Horney12:05:00

@lester2 budget currently annually but looking to change that going forward

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Nienke Alma12:05:27

@danielle.horney can I receive more information on the Business Value Calculator as well? Very interested to learn more about it!

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Danielle Horney12:05:57

@nienke.alma710 of course

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Philip Day12:05:56

Likewise if you are having a catch up on the BVC later, would love to join

Ann Perry - IT Revolution12:05:00

✨ Introducing @raj.fowler, Director, Enterprise Services and @matthew.stokes, Practitioner Engineer from DevOpsGroup and @sergiolopes709, Identity Service Portfolio Transformational Lead, NatWest Group, here to present Self-service Automation for Identity and Access Management Unlocks Productivity ✨

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Raj Fowler12:05:11

Thanks for having us - its a pleasure to be here! Please fire questions this way and we will do our best to answer.

Sergio Pereira-Lopes12:05:34

Hi all, hope you find the presentation interesting. Thanks for the invite.

Matthew Stokes12:05:56

Hello, thanks for having us!

Raj Fowler12:05:02

Be really interested to see what people thing to the restaurant analogy and bonus points if you notice the Spitfire crashing

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER12:05:03

can you share your napkin math to get to the costs for IAM you identified?

Raj Fowler12:05:39

We did some value stream mapping for different patterns and determined lead time, wait time and effort. We then took the effort and multiplied it by the rate cards of the engineering workforce This then gave us the cost for onboarding per applications

Raj Fowler12:05:07

We then look at the to-be self service and did the same to understand the future cost.

Sergio Pereira-Lopes12:05:28

Certainly, it does depend on the offerings as we also enabled MFA to our Mobile Payment journeys. So we attempted to price out journey adoptions to capabilities. Happy to connect with you to talk that through

Raj Fowler12:05:50

Multiplying this up by the future demand over 3 years, together with investment costs gave us the business case for change.

Nigel Lester12:05:55

Totally agree on making as much as possible self-service.

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Sergio Pereira-Lopes12:05:04

For a central technology service our main focus was to remove us as a dependency to deliver value. This enables us to focus on identity capabilities as a value proposition to the organisation rather than enabling a piece of tech

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Raj Fowler12:05:10

Be good to understand if any of the benefits and metrics improvements coming up resonate with others who have enabled self-service platforms

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER12:05:33

love that outcome - building what customer needs instead of what you think they need

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Radoslaw Wiankowski12:05:03

@sergiolopes709 could you elaborate what help around self-service for cloud infra you’re looking for? I might have some thoughts/experience to share, but depends on where you are and where you want to go.

Sergio Pereira-Lopes12:05:53

I will PM you my details and connect if that works as this topic may require a 30 min coffee catch up

Sergio Pereira-Lopes12:05:47

Thanks, in essence we are looking to adopt cloud infra to progress our journey to enable identity as code, giving our business a much more fluid approach to adopt identity capabilities within the customer journey


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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:05:00

⭐ Excited to welcome @robinyeman, CTO at Catalyst Campus, here to present: Can the National Imperative for the Department of Defense Accelerate DevOps Adoption ⭐

Robin Yeman13:05:28

Thank you!! Happy to be here! Hope you enjoy the talk

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:28

So glad you’re here, @robinyeman!!!!

Robin Yeman13:05:34

@genek @annp Thanks for hosting me!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:18

PS: @robinyeman I'm so delighted that you're able to make such a big impact in your new role!

Erik Greathouse13:05:21

Sorry to see you go from LM, but so glad you are in your new role.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:51

@robinyeman Can you post your co-presenter info here, and we'll get the session info updated in schedule and in Video Library. Cc @alex

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER13:05:43

coalitions include DevSecOps Community of Practice

Robin Yeman13:05:55

@genek @alex Duong Hang sent me a Bio Slide but after the deadline

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:12

Heard this amazing quote from @ben.grinnell earlier today for first time: "being fastest is more important than being first".

Erik Greathouse14:05:43

So true; Value does not happen when a product sits in a warehouse.

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Robin Yeman14:05:12

@genek @alex Duong Bio is in this slide deck

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:31

Thank you! @annp and I can take it from here:pray:

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:22

What a great commentary form Duong!

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER14:05:46

love this bit about people taking action; not waiting for permission

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:33

"Do we have too many?" (Ugh. 😒). It was amazing to hear Trent Hone (author of Learning War) talk about how we are witnessing a massive, distributed experimentation happening β€”Β the missing step is a central mechanism to help distribute/share learnings.

Erik Greathouse14:05:27

@genek I think the challenge from Senior leadership is how to balance operational security and budget concerns compared to DevOps capability. IMO

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:57

I.e., we actually want lots of variety and massive experimentation happening, when there are so many unknowns about what the ideal looks like

Robin Yeman14:05:31 - Duong is a tremendously talented influencer in the Air Force

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:50

@robinyeman OH lately: "no problem. We just need to go from P1 to either Iron Bank or _, via the Party Bus." I thought it was a joke, but apparently, all real things. :)

Andrew Davis - Copado - DevOps and Testing for Low Code14:05:33

I’m going to start using Party Bus as the preferred synonym for event bus from now on

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:25

I.e., I freaking love the names of these projects. Hahaha

Robin Yeman14:05:46

@genek yes all real!!!

Erik Greathouse14:05:00

The challenge of ATOs is that they are generally done as after actions (large batch size) cATO is very much focused on small batches.

Robin Yeman14:05:02

@erik.greathouse277 ATO is more expensive than designing and building and testing the entire system

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Erik Greathouse14:05:51

@robinyeman doesn't disagree, My point was ATOs are more expensive due to how they are implemented compared to cATO which is the same intent but implementation is different.

Robin Yeman14:05:35

its something commercial programs would not be aware of

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:34

This is a super fantastic talk, @robinyeman β€”Β thank you!!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:52

Can you convey that to Duong, as well! (I'll email you on a separate topic, as well!)

Robin Yeman14:05:32

@genek I will definitely convey and actually send virtual introduction, he is pretty great

Erik Greathouse14:05:21

Great talk, thank you

Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:05:00

⚑Introducing @moonmaster9000, Technology Consultant, Organizational Architect and IT Revolution author of A Radical Enterprise, is here to present: Getting Started with Radical Collaboration ⚑

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff14:05:07

Amazed with how much Gore gets into. Didn’t realize the company making the most popular jacket waterproofing also makes my floss…

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff14:05:25

Super impressive, and then to hear they’re radically collaborative.

Raj Fowler14:05:41

Really enjoying this talk @moonmaster9000

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Leah Brown - IT Revolution14:05:45

Here's that article^^

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Christoph Hagedorn14:05:43

I like that slide about role clarity. Directly applyable

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Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff14:05:58

Would a list of roles in an organization look different in a radically collaborative organization, given the managerial devolution?

Marco Delgado [Ocado Technology, Engineering Practice Lead]14:05:03

by any chance will the slides become available for this talk? currently showing β€œ(No slides available)” in the library πŸ€“

Matt K. Parker he/him (Speaker/Author)14:05:32

I'll get my slides to the conference organizer

Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:05:36

We'll get them loaded up!

Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:05:16

"Liberating Constraints" – could apply to all aspects of life

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Raj Fowler14:05:22

Book ordered ❀️

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Leah Brown - IT Revolution14:05:39

spheres of support instead of lines of report

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Leah Brown - IT Revolution14:05:24

new button or sticker idea complete!

Ben Squires (HORIBA Test Automation)14:05:06

@moonmaster9000 Thanks for the fascinating... and terrifying talk... my head is blown off... πŸ˜„


No substitute for critical thinking - I like that one!

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Leah Brown - IT Revolution14:05:16

Thank you Matt! You can also join Matt's community discussing radical collaboration here:

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David Hawes-Johnson (DevOps Enablement - BT)14:05:17

I'm loving A Radical Enterprise - I'm building an InnerSource initiative to enable more effective collaboration over software but the thoughts in this book are already bouncing around my head!

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Matt K. Parker he/him (Speaker/Author)14:05:06

Thank you all for listening. Feel free to DM me if you have any questions of feedback or anything; and if you want to discuss radical collaboration, self-management, etc., with others interested in the same thing, then please come join my slack community via

Matt K. Parker he/him (Speaker/Author)14:05:48

You can also email me at <|>


@moonmaster9000 I really like the Ideas you presented, thanks a lot for that! One question, though: How do you account for survivorship bias in your work? In other words... how can you actually draw the inference that those radical collaboration patterns are indeed the cause for the organizations' being successful?

Matt K. Parker he/him (Speaker/Author)14:05:28

First --- thank you for the question! Second --- I've done nothing to account for survivorship bias. I think causation is hard --- particularly in sociology and organizational science, and particularly outside of an experimental laboratory. That being said, I'm also principally a writer, not an organizational science researcher. But studies like the HOW Report, which highlight the correlations, along with various psychological and sociological studies in the book, definitely paint a compelling (and hopeful) picture that what is good for humans is good for organizations.


Thanks @moonmaster9000. Don't get me wrong here, I do believe (and I find it quite logical) that improved collaboration leads to improved results. But then beliefs are just beliefs πŸ™‚ "Fooled by randomness" kind of shook up my confidence a little here πŸ™‚


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Stephen Thomas16:05:51

> Queues profoundly affect the economics of product development. They cause valuable work products to sit idle, waiting to access busy resources. This idle time increases inventory, which is the root cause of many other economic problems. β€’ Donald Reinertsen Flow


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