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Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:05:15

πŸ“£ Coming up after the break, the team from Sainsbury's - @nick.poulten @edwardcarr @stuart.richards !

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Stuart Richards11:05:15

Hey all, welcome to those of you joining @edwardcarr, @nick.poulten and I to hear about the Sainsbury's Story - all 3 of us are here ready to answer any questions.... thank you!

Ed Carr (he/him)11:05:22

Hello everyone! Excited to be here.

Nick Poulten11:05:51

Hi everyone - hope you enjoy the talk - we're looking forward to hearing any questions you have πŸ‘‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:29

Hi @nick.poulten @edwardcarr @stuart.richards!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:38

Love the beer fridge story

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Steve Smith12:05:53

Great to hear about the move from functional areas to divisions πŸ‘

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:14

Product family = value?

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement12:05:59

βž• to Jon’s questions. Can you give examples of those Product families?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:12

Values, behaviours, principles at the base πŸ’―

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:32

"Principles can be applied across contexts"

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Ed Carr (he/him)12:05:20

They were aligned to the non-tech divisions. So The Logisitics Product Family or the Supply Chain Product Family. Each Product Family then owns the software products which are required to deliver the business capability that the aligned division is responsible for.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:24

Sounds like alignment to the flow of value

Ed Carr (he/him)12:05:13

It's about as close an alignment as we were able to do at the time. I think for our business the flow of value actually cuts across the business divisions. So true value stream alignment would require a reorganisation of the entire company.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:47

"The critical point, leaders"

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:55

"Do it and tell people that you're doing it"

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)12:05:56

LOVE the Culture Code and, of course, Amy Edmondson - read it and then do it!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:05

"Be vulnerable" love it @stuart.richards

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)12:05:00

Indeed, I like the contrast in the phrasing β€œInviting vs inflicting change”

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement12:05:03

β€œdo it… dont spend 12 months in powerpoint!”

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement12:05:29

350 investment papers to 32! (on its way to 4?)

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Nick Poulten12:05:30

inviting over inflicting is so important to remember, it's so easy to forget and take the shorter, easier path but that path is likely to take you in the wrong direction

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:37

"Multidisciplinary teams for investment" "Quarterly outcomes" "Review progress on outcomes" "350 papers to 32" "More strategic conversation" Pivot

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:58

"Which bets to fund to best achieve outcomes"

Stuart Richards12:05:11

Re "invite vs inflict", I think most leaders have a default setting for making change happen. The leaders you want know which of these levers to pull depending on context....

Steve Smith12:05:37

πŸ‘ for funding teams, not projects at Sainsburys

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Ed Carr (he/him)12:05:38

That change has been a massive unlocker of value for us. Seeing high performing teams disbanded at the end of a project was just such waste.

Steve Smith12:05:20

When Joshua Arnold, Allan Kelly, and I first started talking about, I referenced this explosion by Allan Kelly on project funded teams

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:40

Net +ve what @nick.poulten?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:40

End to end. Sounds promising.

Nick Poulten12:05:58

+ve Net Present Value

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Nick Poulten12:05:59

Sorry I'll need to speak to an accountant 🀯

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:20

Interested to understand how future cashflows are estimated πŸ™‚

Ed Carr (he/him)12:05:38

Depends on the initiative. Each piece of work we take on has a finance partner who helps to create a financial assessment - what do we predict the 'hard' benefit will be of doing this piece of work. That might come from cost savings, increased revenue etc. We can then compare the prediction to the realised benefit as the work is delivered. (obviously the trick is to do this at the right level of granularity. Initiatives can't be too big or too small).

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:38

Interesting. With a link to OKRs? (where the KRs might include cost or revenue as a lagging indicator)?

Nick Poulten12:05:58

we'd like to say it's linked to OKRs however we're not as disciplined as we need to be with those IMHO

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:14

Thanks πŸ™‚ I'm familiar with how to PV future cashflows, curious as to the prediction of future cashflows

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:43

BTW, great talk, thank you!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:32

"E2E, capex and opex, across the org" πŸ‘

Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement12:05:33

I think you guys are on the right track with e2e PLM! Value Stream thinking - Unified, but connected experiences by persona across the Value Chain

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:06

Kudos @stuart.richards @edwardcarr @nick.poulten

Moira Cheng12:05:14

Just curious about the E2E PLM... would you still segregrate Business and Tech or bring it together?

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Nick Poulten12:05:43

At the moment we're just in Tech however will need to see what this move takes us and who knows what the future holds....

Moira Cheng12:05:41

πŸ‘ thanks for the clarity... that is definitely a further step and one that is largely left separate in other organisations

Ed Carr (he/him)12:05:07

We're working towards enabling more collaboration between business and tech. My personal vision would be that eventually tech gets embedded into the business... But that can only happen when Tech is able to thrive in a distributed environment. Mature Communities of Practice etc. I don't think we're quite ready for that yet.

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Stuart Richards12:05:42

No question that a few years back Tech at Sainsbury's were seen as holding things back and the last to move with the times; now, we are leading the way on org iteration, op model change and cost optimisation - from back of the pack to the front, so I think we're well placed to try and take some of these principles outside of Tech

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Tim Wyatt12:05:56

you have to bring them together

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:57

"Clear purpose and accountability"

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)12:05:05

Not a collection of individuals - collective connection and effort creates strength, even when the team is facing challenges and falls backwards

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:52

"Leadership and grassroots bottom up"

Dubro - Conti Tires12:05:20

Great talk, thanks. We collect data from some of your fleets - and insert them into a DevOps style operated landscape... πŸ™‚ Love to know, that on the other end also some cool guys are available.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:30

"Courage, go first, be humble"

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:33

Thanks @stuart.richards @edwardcarr @nick.poulten

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Tim Wyatt12:05:38

Transparency is key, so much information hiding and gatekeeping out there

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)12:05:01

Thanks @stuart.richards @nick.poulten @edwardcarr that was great!

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Sophie Weston12:05:01

Really interesting story - thanks for sharing

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Moira Cheng12:05:02

Inspirational & Thought-provoking talk πŸ˜„ Thank you @edwardcarr @nick.poulten @stuart.richards

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Matt Cobby (CTO-CXGuardian, DevEx, InnerSource, AI Governance)12:05:26

Leadership and grassroots bottom up - the sandwich of transformation.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution12:05:57

Thank you to the Sainsbury's team!! πŸ“£ Next, we hear more from Nationwide Building Society with @sarah.sambidge @zsolt.berend and @paul.blackler !!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:05:56

Hello @sarah.sambidge @zsolt.berend @paul.blackler

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David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group12:05:48

Hi @paul.blackler

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Paul Blackler - Ways of Working Enablement Specialist12:05:21

Hi @davidorsi72 great to see you, hope you are enjoying the summit πŸ™‚

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Marc Price - Nationwide Building Society (Speaker)12:05:50

looking forward to this one..... i'm not bias at all πŸ™‚

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James Simon12:05:37

I see alot of Silos, where they want to share, or even think that they have shared, but clearly don't know how

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zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)12:05:12

yes, this resonates with my experiences, without collaboration platforms it is hard to share outside the bubbles

Moira Cheng12:05:24

or too many collaboration platforms, people do not know which one to use for what!

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zsolt berend (co-author - sooner safer happier)12:05:58

open space, CoPs, conferences and wow awards help connecting the disconnected information and learning bubbles

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David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group12:05:27

Pop the bubbles looks familiar!

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Erik Sackman12:05:11

have you given these teams some kind of physical award as well?

Sarah S12:05:47

We we asked the teams if they would like a trophy - bearing in mind the remote working environment It was so lovely to hear the teams say they would like one so we organised delivery to homes 😊

David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group12:05:12

The challenge for us all is to take what we’ve learnt from COVID into the future. There wouldn’t have been a case for laptops to wfh.

Paul Blackler - Ways of Working Enablement Specialist12:05:14

Very true David. In the award winner's story it helped to accelerate a cultural journey they were already on. Some very relevant lessons (providing we truly reflect on them) from Covid on how we come together to make bolder change πŸ™‚

David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group12:05:42

I've seen some great examples of how covid helped focus the mind. Things like payment holidays, bounceback loans were implemented very quickly because people were focussed on a clear outcome and not working on multiple priorities. WiP was limited.

David Orsi - RTE, NatWest Group12:05:54

some people live for a crisis....

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)12:05:07

it's great to hear all the perspective on the awards. It seems like it was extremely successful

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Sarah S12:05:52

When we first thought about it we honestly didn’t know whether we would even get entries in double figures! Zsolt and I had a little sweep stake and we were both way under with our guesses 😊

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Kim Weins (Anchore)12:05:00

I'm not seeing the video

Sophie Weston12:05:01

I'm not seeing or hearing anything on Track 1.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution12:05:12

Coming up in a moment!

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Sophie Weston12:05:49

Too impatient! :)

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:05:16

πŸ“£ Let's get ready to welcome @simon.skelton and @steve.smith, here to talk about Operability at John Lewis & Partners!

thankyou 2
Steve Smith13:05:36

Hello everyone! πŸ‘‹. Hope you're enjoying the conference. We have a great story to share with you, all about

Vlad Ukis13:05:06

Looking forward to your talk, Steve!

Steve Smith13:05:32

Thanks Vlad, hope you're well

Steve Smith13:05:10

This talk is about the stuff I was working on, when we last saw each other

Steve Smith13:05:03

I'm here, just watching the end of @corey saying all the things I like to say about Kubernetes, Tenzu, and multi-cloud... but with muzak :thinking_face:

Steve Smith13:05:31

"A new boy, with a mere 20 years at John Lewis & Partners" πŸ˜†

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Tim Wyatt13:05:15

The best thing here is no "we've tried that before, didn't work" atttitude

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Steve Smith14:05:08

@tim.wyatt You're right. Working at John Lewis & Partners was a great experience for me. @simon.skelton and his peers weren't afraid to challenge norms. When we adopted You Build It You Run It, it was informed by past experiences at John Lewis & Partners - not just theory

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Patrick Anderson - Tasktop - he/him14:05:39

Hey @simon.skelton - this is impressive stuff - what were leading indicators you monitored and how did you visualize them?

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:16

Ah, I cannot give away the plot too early... listen on!

Steve Smith14:05:46

Please hold @patrick.anderson πŸ˜† , we'll come back to this thread if you wish - in about 10 mins

Patrick Anderson - Tasktop - he/him14:05:27

@simon.skelton @steve.smith very cool. great work πŸ‘

Steve Smith14:05:49

Thanks @patrick.anderson, a lot of thought has gone into it. We don't mention in the talk that we also track the time it takes to complete an improvement task from a post-incident review or Chaos Day. That's a trailing indicator from an incident but we also treat it as a leading indicator of adaptive capacity for future incident management

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Steve Smith14:05:04

I wrote a general blog on the topic a while ago -

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Steve Smith14:05:01

You're welcome, happy to answer any questions you've got

Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity14:05:30

At John Lewis - how do you ensure end to end quality for the valuestream when you have product teams focused on search, catalog, etc?

Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity14:05:02

do you have a product owner that goes from search all the way to shipment?

Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity14:05:03

@steve.smith @simon.skelton - happy to follow up after the conference as well

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Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:16

We have Product Owners for different areas such as Search, but they are part of a Product Domain, with an overarching Product Manager too.

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:46

Each Product team also has OKRs which filter up into high level OKR's

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Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity14:05:15

Are you using something associated with a perfect digital order as the top most OKR?

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:20

We wouldn't have that but something Net Promotor Score related.

Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity14:05:39

very interesting πŸ™ , how do you incorporate the "voice of the consumer" into your OKRs?

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Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:09

The majority of our features are run as A/B test experiments and therefore we can see if customers like them, but as part of that experiment we also take inputs from any customer feedback too.

Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity14:05:48

awesome! Great story and congrats on the hard work / success thus far

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:53

@nasello.scott thanks! I've seen Nike present previously and been inspired by that, so I think sharing what works well, and what doesn't, is really important, so thanks to you too!!

Scott Nasello - eBay - Sr Director, Engineering Productivity14:05:02

I'll probably follow up with you all after the conference

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Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)14:05:47

are your Incident Manager part of the Product domains or are they a seperate team

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:30

Incident Managers are part of a separate Service Management team, but they are just there to provide support to those on call by managing Incident Comms and ensuring other teams outside Digital are called in if required.

Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)14:05:14

so Service Management is outside the products? We currently try to integrate this as well on a product level. So that are close to the products. There responsiblity is as well the comms and coordination only

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:38

I agree that's a great way to go. We've just had a reorg which established a new Service Management function with a 3d party, so one of our current priorities is working with them to bring Service Management much closer into the Digital Product teams.

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:54

So yes, Service Management is outside Products at the moment!

Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)14:05:51

We had the same discussion if we go with a separate team or not. We now decided to do have them to the product team, let's see how this works out πŸ™‚

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:38

I think the main thing is to try it and learn from it! Every organisation has multiple factors which influence what will, or will not, work well, so I don't think there's one perfect template that will work for everyone. I'll be very interest to hear how it works out for you! 🀞

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Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)14:05:41

Happy to share it! If it works out then it is definitely an option for a talk next year πŸ™‚

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:53

I'll definitely look forward to that! It's great to see how each organisation is continuing on it's journey! The TUI talk was great yesterday!

thankyou 1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:19

Nice right sizing of on call rota

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Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:38

@jonathansmart1 It's always an interesting thing to balance the level of insurance we want, but we'll always keep this under review and continue to adapt as necessary. Fortunately at the moment we're not seeing many major incidents which means we get more challenge as to whether a call rota is required, but that's a good problem to have!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:56

Do you have any unplanned Chaos Days? πŸ™‚


you mean, the real thing? πŸ˜‰

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:46

@jonathansmart1 who doesn't! I'd say the PlayStation 5 launch is a good example! πŸ˜‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:15

Any intentionally planned Chaos Days without telling anyone?!

Steve Smith14:05:30

Unintentional = far fewer in 2021 than happened in 2018 πŸ‘

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Steve Smith14:05:36

Intentional = we always tell people

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I assume was a bit planned for ps5... like a prime day at amazon or black friday

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:29

At the moment real Chaos Days are all planned and communicated, however we're starting to give less and less information/notification about them, but we need to balance not impacting teams plans too much!


or say foreseen (sorry not natural born english speaker)

Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:37

@christian.lefevre We certainly knew PS5 was being launched, but we were not expecting 25x our highest Black Friday peak!!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:09

From 10 to 5000 deploys a year!

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)14:05:24

Love the approach to learning, without that performance can't be sustained

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thankyou 1
Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:51

Is this a 12 month view or a 24 month view?

Steve Smith14:05:06

The magic table is for 12 months only

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Steve Smith14:05:22

The prior data on deployment frequency and incidents is for 24 months

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Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:19

I forgot to mention in the voice over that you cannot please all the people all the time i.e. Boris and his partner!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:52

Great talk and progress at JLP, thanks @simon.skelton and @steve.smith! I try to buy from JLP ahead of Amazon when I can

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Steve Smith14:05:24

I just bought a new sofa from, @simon.skelton is always watching πŸ™‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:02

@simon.skelton if I give you some feedback now, could you get it live before 5pm? (kidding!) πŸ™‚

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Simon Skelton - John Lewis, Platform and Ops Manager14:05:54

@jonathansmart1 we'll that would be possible but I'm not sure our Product Owners would prioritise your request! πŸ˜„

Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:05:05

πŸ“£ We are so excited to welcome back to the DOES "stage", @lucasc5 , @lewir7 and @culpe2!

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Christian Rudolph (TUIGroup - Head Of DevOps Transformation)14:05:43

great talk πŸ‘ @simon.skelton @steve.smith

thankyou 1

Thanks @simon.skelton and @steve.smith

thankyou 2
Sophie Weston14:05:07

Really interesting talk - thank you πŸ‘

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)14:05:35

super interesting. As I'm listening, I am thinking about the benefit/value of tracking/monitoring risk with the Viz tool (#project-to-product)

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Andy Hinton14:05:33

@lewir7 How long did it take for teams to implement the automated test/review?

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Rusty Lewis, Specialist - IT Auditor14:05:49

Hi Andy! We have 100s of build teams across our organization, so it ultimately depends on the maturity of the team and complexity of the test.

Andy Hinton14:05:55

Thank you. I'll probably have many more questions.

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Andy Hinton14:05:25

Is there a single automated deployment system or multiple? We have multiple, and our external auditors are expecting to test the configurations of the systems that enforce the criteria as well as user access to modify those configurations. Do you do configuration and access testing on the automated control systems?

Ethan Culp14:05:38

We have multiple but are trying to streamline into one or two.

Ethan Culp14:05:19

If we were testing those during an audit, we would look at testing those configurations.

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Andy Hinton14:05:13

Are the automated testing results attached or linked to the story? Another struggle is to find/prove testing when it isn't linked.

Andy Hinton14:05:17

Ahh, so yes, linked in Jira. Cool!

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Ethan Culp14:05:41

For more mature systems, yes, that's something that we would expect to see that! Our Partners and Beyond team have a really great pipeline that checks for Jira progress, automated tests had a passing score, and Github PR approvals were manually done.

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Ethan Culp14:05:15

The Git PR approval functions as real eyes-on-code peer review and using the time to upskill and rope other resources into the story.

Andy Hinton14:05:59

That's fantastic

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Pedro Amaral14:05:19

How do you address the risk of someone who have production access to bypass the automated deployment process?

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Clarissa Lucas, Author and IT Audit Leader14:05:12

We would look to see what other mitigating controls are in place. For example, is there monitoring or a review to identify instances where the automated deployment process has been bypassed?

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems14:05:17

This might be too AWS specific, but would something like CloudTrail fill that gap with logs about who used their credentials to do what?

Clarissa Lucas, Author and IT Audit Leader14:05:40

That could be one solution. Keeping in mind that logging alone is not a control. There needs to be a review or monitoring of the logs.

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Pedro Amaral14:05:15

Fair enough! But monitoring who accesses does not guarantee that this group of privileged users is not actually bypassing the process, right? In teams where we have more and more users in this scenario that navigate between development (pipe as a code and support to devs) and production, the review of this ammount of logs is not a simple question.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:06

Hi, @lucasc5 and @lewir7! Thank you so much for allowing us to air your talk yesterday β€” everyone loved it! Two friends of mine would love to meet you! @cornelia is on the DOES programming committee and just gave a talk on GitOps, and would love to talk with you! She is awesome!

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Clarissa Lucas, Author and IT Audit Leader14:05:48

@genek it was our pleasure! We'd love to connect with @cornelia!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair14:05:40

And my good friend and co-author @jwillis has been doing a ton of work on β€œautomated governance” which was a Forum topic for 2 years, imagining (and even building) what the ideal governance and control environment would look like β€”Β @john_z_rzeszotarski at PNC Bank has even parts of it running in production. I know they’d love to talk with you, as well!

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Clarissa Lucas, Author and IT Audit Leader14:05:45

Excellent! Looking forward to connecting with @jwillis and @john_z_rzeszotarski!

John Willis15:05:15

In fact, we are getting close o being code complete if the second version of the 2019 DAG paper as part of the 2021 Forum Papers.

Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley15:05:41

We are looking at starting a working group to discuss this under the DevOps Mutalization SIG in FINOS

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:05:22

I could not make it to this talk and I will try to catch up but its so interesting to see this work.

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:05:06

I am not sure where we are at in my team. We started some work towards continuous compliance and governance and would love to learn more and exchange notes

Pradeep Kumar Patra17:05:48

Excited to be here, learned many things. thank you.

Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)20:05:12

Here is the collection of all the reference links that were shared / discussed during the #DOES21 event. Enjoy Reading πŸ™‚