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@leanne.bridges @mark.rendell How do you overcome the challenge to have a risk expert available when it is needed. How does the Risk CoE facilitate this demand from Agile teams
Hey. I am so sorry this got missed yesterday (wrangling the threads was challenging, I had no idea we'd be so in demand)... I'd be happy to walk you through the specifics of our approach if that would be helpful.. it's easier with a picture... let me know and we can connect... otherwise I can try and write it up for you..
Thank you @annp, glad to be here! Ready to answer your questions 🙂
@dmitry.luchnik I loved the presentation last year from @fernando.cornago442 and @daniel.eichten — it’s so great to see how the magic actually happens!
That's a cool thing with our enabling platforms, What Fernando and Daniel were describing 🙂 It's possible to take SE practices and apply them to DWH topic. Reliably and in a short time frame
This is fantastic, how you’re showing what the analogues to CI/CD could/should be for data, @dmitry.luchnik!
Oh, yes! First time to see those charts was sooo inspiring!
You see, we took a lot of inspiration from your work @genek 🙂 Especially the Accelerate!
@dmitry.luchnik how did you get the deploy frequency up (and presumably lead time for changes down) when you’re dealing with data at scale? for large data sets, i can imagine those changes might take a while…
Not all changes are big changes. The problem that without proper CICD - all big and small changes - are just changes.
need review, CAB, you name it.
with CICD implemented - small changes are going extra fast
@jeff.gallimore, also the scope of testing matters and its speed. We use now auto-scaling k8s cluster to run the CI. Maybe sounds crazy, but it allows to test the whole data model of the complete datawarehouse with all its dependencies on within 5 mins. On every commit - before a change hits the database. So some bigger model changes and KPI logic is validated by CI. The teams have good visibility on the impact.
This is so reassuring to see — I’ve seen so many “big data” projects being led by people without a software background, and the results are… not pretty…
Merging domain knowledges - diversity matters. We were very lucky to have a small team with diverse backgrounds to come up with the software models of doing things which would work in datawarehouse environment.
interesting about going to native SQL over abstractions — i don’t know if i’ve ever heard advocacy for that. it’s always been the abstraction and tooling.
Yeah, we had some experiments on this. But the main topic- get acceptance and adoption actually led the way. With native SQL in the core - the onboarding time is super fast. We had to explain git, pull requests, CI and that's all.
Thank you! And it paid off
@dmitry.luchnik Did I hear that correctly? You rewrote it seven times?
yes, the journey to resilience 🙂
@dmitry.luchnik is this the martin fowler data mesh reference? https://martinfowler.com/articles/data-mesh-principles.html
@jeff.gallimore Yes, but that's a 2nd one 🙂 Original is https://martinfowler.com/articles/data-monolith-to-mesh.html
Thank you so much, Dmitry!! And now, more from TUI Group with @christian.rudolph, @philipp.boeschen650 and @lisa.dahms
Awesome, @dmitry.luchnik — thanks for sharing so many details. I often find it frustrating that so many talks on this topic are too high level, never actually describing the actual practices!!
Thank you Gene! I hoped that deep dive to the specific practices would be more interesting than the high-level messages
So needed — so many of the “MLOps” talks from the cloud vendors leave much to be desired. 🙂
Never forget: "Life is better in Flip Flops" 🙂
Hi, @christian.rudolph @lisa.dahms @philipp.boeschen650 — was great meeting you a couple of weeks ago, and so much looking forward to this, especially after seeing @pieter.jordaan talk yesterday! (Which I thought splendidly described the all heroic work that was done!)
Super cool that you get to meet so many interesting new people in your role
That first press statement, actually said that we wanted to present at DOES21 😂 Be careful what you wish for!
I think I speak for everyone when I say I feel sorry for the everyone working in T&T during COVID 😢
We need a separate channel for COVID-related decompressing and venting
I feel sorry for everyone working during Covid full stop. And those not working too. Hells everyone
True but job security is a special type of hell I don't ever want to ever experience
Or not working, as companies shed staff to reduce expenses...
Something that blew my mind around using existing assets: https://www.tuigroup.com/en-en/media/stories/2021/2021-02-05-tui-cargo-flights-from-stuttgart-with-boeing-787
loosing 98% turnover makes you think about what you can realize with near nothing 😅
Yeah the whole "Constraints breed creativity" idiom comes into full play
Ohhhh y'all have UHR (Unicorn HR) - super rare
yes we heard that we are lucky. But for us it feels normal 😄
Well very long story but having HR that even works with DevOps is painfully uncommon
to be honest, nothing else makes sense so we alsways wonder that it comes so surprising to others 🙂
How is HR integrated into the delivery teams/value stream?
Totally right Lisa, nothing else does! Wish it were that DUH though. The amount of places where the two sides work either despite each other or actively against each other
(Seeing @me1342's, umm, disgust? of how many HR orgs work is always impressive. 😂
LOL it's not disgust, just sadness - I did an audit last week. Of 46 live hot conversations we have, 3 THREE include HR in any significant fashion
Did you have your own DevOps Maturity Model, or used something already out there? And do you have specific metrics which helped you a lot?
we gone to some of the available ones and added some own specific questions.
there is not one specific one. The important step was that teams takes this at their responsibility and would like to improve
One of the big ways is a async Teams channel for just general questions, additionally a core part is coming together planning some broader initiatives in bi-weekly calls
Sweet. How do you evangelize and work with the rest of the workforce?
We did a talk on DevOps metrics we loved last year. https://videolibrary.doesvirtual.com/?video=431640000. Unfortunately, we were an enabling team that was laid off after that.
Craig I know! That was heartbreaking. Building HumanDebt live
How did you measure the technical debt? Spreadsheet nightmare or a more convenient tool? 🙂
sure send me a DM
How do you measure tech debt?
we track it Jira and then use the same methods like for features
The key is constantly advertising that tracking it helps us get help to you quicker 🙂
So label it in Jira? Do you have a definition? Obviously different for every company but wondering if there is a generic def?
Usually the teams themselves know their own debt quite well @nickeggleston Additionally we have some global stories from things we've found across many teams 🙂
And who prioritizes work so the debt items get scheduled?
@david.zacharias we used an seperate issue type for Debt and Risk to make it visible
@nickeggleston the Product Owners, together with the delivery (more technical) leads usually. We did do a massive campaign to increase awareness around the topic though, that graph was part of it!
@richjordanswindon that was number of Jira tickets
Currently, we are using the pipes, we have define controls of technical debts, and implement break the builds with sonar. Also the technical are track in Jira using custom fields of type of change technical debts in the client we work
Also we are working implementing security break the build the same as sonar for sast analysis
Is anyone else struggling to focus on both the chat and the talk? I find that as I focus on the chat and respond, I lost the thread of meaning from the talk and vice-versa
All day 🙂 It helps if you know the talk... but it's so difficult for me to wrap my head around some of these talks
Problem of everything being synchronous in virtual event. For Physical events you watch listen then talk after here it all happens at the same time
Super hard when the talk is introducing something novel
it makes me extra crazy trying to process it all hehe
That's when the FOMO turns up 😅 The talk I can rewatch, the chat I can't replay
Well I have the talk on the TV and chat on the computer, but still my mental attention seems to be limited. I need more mental thread concurrency.
FOMO hell yeah and it gets so much worse with 4 tracks simultaneously...
I don't think thats always possible hence have to stop one and focus
After the conference, I want to prototype playing videos, with slack replay happening on the side.
Similar to twitch VoDs? Where the chat is just flowing as it was? :thinking_face: Could be super cool
@robertso in person, I find it hard to find people to talk to afterwards from the huge crowd...
It would be super cool to be able to tag threads in the chat to particular times or time intervals in the video stream, ideally integrated with a caption stream. There's clearly a gap here where we could make much improvement with focused experiments.
Pretty sure that there is a market there to be captured by something similar to twitch/youtube - just the infrastructure reqs are huge
I still have the sense that the gaming community has a lot to teach us about remote distributed focused interaction.
That's my roots 🙂 There is a lot of things that I've learned from gaming that translates!
Agree it depends on the event but I normally find there are people who group around the presenter at the end asking questions and its a case of joining that discussion or a more formal Q&A
Gaming does a lot right for example discord is still the best VOIP system I've seen Slack could learn a thing of two from them
Discord is very decent for community building, there is some other things it lacks but it does amazingly what it aims for! I've loved the original Ask the speaker sessions in the last physical events where some of the Keynote speakers would just sit there for a Q&A directly after the plenary sessions. Are they coming back when it's going physical? Or even virtually coming back? @genek
I've had some super interesting conversations around those and they really set this conference apart from others
@philipp.boeschen650 did you mean the last in-person DOES conference?
Was there much political resistance to these changes? Must be some people who lost out / lost control? Or did the crisis sweep it all away?
as @pieter.jordaan mentioned yesterday a crisis help massively in this 🙂
As in everyone was already panicking so made it easier to break the boat to build a better one?
yes it was a chance for us
what impresses me first is the courageous response to the crisis that TUI showed, from the Board down. Then I'm in awe of the speed, power and effectiveness of the way that TUI have responded, combined with immense positive spirit. I'm going to get my flip-flops just as soon as I can!!!!!
thank you @adrian.jones it´s not always been easy but feedback like yours is a nice way to reflect back and be proud of what has been achieved
we done both, depending on the challenge.
That is great to hear, coaching the team and coaching the leader to coach the team can be a game changer
The interesting thing here is what you can achieve when you are fundamentally disrupted! How does this compare to organisations that haven't outwardly been impacted by the pandemic?
Where did the time go.. the talk is already over! 😞
Thank you @christian.rudolph, @lisa.dahms and @philipp.boeschen650 for those insights.
Great talk, really inspiring @christian.rudolph @lisa.dahms @philipp.boeschen650 Thank you!
In yesterday's talk @pieter.jordaan talked about the advantages of standardisation and harmonisation - e.g. one platform for all where previously there would be lots of local demand Now the dust has settled a bit, how are the business teams coping with the new world? Do they regret the constrained choice?
@philipday from a people point of view i´d say it´s like with every shift of culture - there is curiosity and excitement about it but also fear and trust in the change being good, which needs to be build over the time... i think teams are coping quite well even though cultural awareness is a key topic and certainly is another big chunk to take on next to all the business and process amendments...
As with anything there is both responses, but overall I think the change has been received positively seeing the improvements in our delivery.
@philipp.boeschen650 so true
@philipday, ‘constraints’ choice is an interesting wording. Part of the motivation to move and transform is to give them more choice. Local markets have a portion of the global budget and is constraint by their local legacy systems. So the ability to progress is inherently limited. Example each market get 1m to invest in the same thing (Web). You collectively are moving forward by 1m but you spend 4m. Once you consolidate, free yourself from the tech debt you can invest 3m and collectively move forward with 3m and save 1m. The questions is therefore what ‘constraints’ exist. In practice it comes down to the mind-shift change to think global instead of local and work on a global product instead of a local product. I would argue that there is less constraints due to the unshackling of the technical constraints and freeing up “flow” back to the customer.
Coming back from the break, we have @audunstrand and @trulsjor from NAV joining us!
> creating coordinated changes in two monoliths that's a quote to remember 😄
NAV Github page: https://github.com/navikt
Great example of engaging constructively with the open source community
This all sounds super nice. How long did your journey take?
Yeah, thats pretty insane
For those legacy apps on the 'grey list', you threw away all the controls on deployment. Were they unnecessary or did you transition other ways of getting reassurance?
they where unecessary. THe gave the illusion of control, not actual control. The teams creating the applications are the ones that know the risk
How on earth did this work in a public sector which is susceptible to the whims of politicians who change their minds or make decisions without necessarily understanding the consequences
the laws controlling our benefits changes slower than the politicians
Hey this is Norway. In many cases, things seem to work quite well there 😀.
Agreed. I worked with the UK government and often releases or changes were delayed due to political speed but that didn't stop fundamental changes happening at the last minute
also. We really want to change the direction. So that we can tell the politicians what is easy and difficult
> So that we can tell the politicians what is easy and difficult That thought is just impossible in UK civil service from what I've seen but would be a great idea
If you build up trust by having a track record of delivering, then any senior leader will trust your opinions about what is easy and difficult
You are absolutely right in that this transformation to stable funding is a challenge in the public sector where most of the funding processes is projects based, and more suitable for building offices and bridges. This is a long political process that has implications on how the welfare state is funded, but NAV has taken a clear position: We are moving away from projects, and into product based software development and funding.
> funding processes is projects based yes, it's these sorts of things that make it hard to be agile in govt. Annual budgets. Traditional procurement. HR etc etc
"From temporary projects to long lived products with stable teams and stable funding"
Great talk, folks. Really feels like you did everything right. Was there any pull back? 🙂
yes. the further away from IT we went, the harder it was to sell speed as a success factor
Were those giving pushback not seeing the outcomes of delivering sooner?
Ah I can relate to that. I also had these discussions with business: Why do we want to even release more often? Just will create more effort for acceptance testing for us!😥
so we need to show them speed correlates with sucess, as accelerate shows
The transformation to a product organisation is not by any means done (it never will be)
more data on our deployments can be seen here https://data.nav.no/datapakke/e1556a04a484bbe06dda2f6b874f3dc1 (in norwegian, but google translate is your frient)
Thank you @annp, happy to be here and looking forward to sharing my story! Folks, feel free to ask me anything
“Leadership commitment matters” seems to be the common thread through all agile/devops transformation (for obvious reasons). 🙂
@saket.kulkarni so true. I find that engineers tend to have a bias for action, we want to get right to work building. So we have to actually intentionally slow down and work on getting that leadership buy in before we start getting busy.
Absolutely! We have a sort of “build it and they will come” mentality which is true up to a point, but leadership buy-in remains crucial.
'build it and they will come' - this can work too , but you are right, balance is everything 🙂
I like this: New Team Goal: “I don’t want you to be the best, I want you to be the best at getting better”
Wow.. Not be the best… become best at being better! such an impactful thought from a leader to their teams!
☝️I might have stolen this from @jonathansmart1, like i said, it wasn't an original idea but i was surprised at how quickly it worked to unlock safety
No worries. Thanks for clarifying, it’s good to know the source. But we are constantly ‘recycling’ and amplifying each others’ ideas in this space.
the scenius concept @genek shared in day 1 kick off 😜 , all these related ideas floating around the scene and getting amplified 👏
@ashulman Do you have any examples of how to measure Diversity? Is it based purely on percentage of under-represented groups in a team/group/space? If there are intersections of diversity categories (gender, ethnicity, orientation) in one person, do you count them more than once (for instance)?
yep, based on percentage of under represented groups. the smaller the group you can measure the better because you really want to have diversity at the team level not the org level
intersectionality important concept, and yes multiple identities are counted more than once
and while measuring diversity is critical, make sure you keep your teams focused on the "why", creates safe place when conversations get uncomfortable
I also warn leaders to be aware of goodharts law when creating diversity reports
@ashulman - how do you think it is best to approach the topic of a lack of diversity at the very top level of an organisation? Doing so in a respectful and professional manner without sounding difficult?
It depends (and isn't that the answer to everything? 😆) You have the same challenge anytime you want to influence anyone about anything. Different tactics can work, and I'd be happy to discuss your specific scenario. But one idea is to appeal to their ego and show them what's in for them. Many business leaders do not actually understand the business value that diversity creates (and same with devops for yet another similarity). Surely if they knew they could unlock innovation and an incredible talent market they would, right?