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2020-06-24
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After break, welcome speaker @eleanor.taylor to Q&A!
Hi everyone. Looking forward to answering any questions you may have.
@eleanor.taylor: this morning when I asked this question I was told your talk would provide the answer: https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/archives/C015DQFEGMT/p1592985583072800
@richard.james said โ@jtfย - the role of trust and honest โAgile Conversationsโ (honestly) play a role! Heads-up forย @eleanorjtaylorย talk later for more detail on Audit storyโ
@janet.chapman said โI recommend you listen toย @eleanor.taylorย later this morning as she led the work adopting Agile in Internal Audit at Nationwide. We worked closely with a coach who had developed adaptations of Agile for non-technology contexts based on scrum,โ
I hope it does answer this question for you, but if not and you need more detail, just go ahead and ask.
@jtf - here we are again on track 2โฆ Iโm seriously wondering what kind of profiling experiment Gene is up to :thinking_face:
It is honestly starting to look a little suspiciousโฆ
I was wondering why they didn't randomize the track assignment numbers from day to day just to have people pay attention ๐
speaker-track-2 has been the winner so farโฆ I think the wheel might be biased.
its great to see Executives at Standups (and demos)โฆ. i encourage my leaders to do the same, as opposed to asking me for updates
โthe right conversations at the right timeโ < I see that feedback @eleanor.taylor. how was that different than what the feedback would have been before?
Occasionally we would get good feedback, but not consistently. The transparency has been great as built trust between audit team and business. Youโll see some metrics that show how well this has worked.
May be a bit of an elementary question, but can you elaborate a little on the reason for breaking out "efficiency" into pace and flow? @eleanor.taylor
Like creating your own values, inspired by the Agile Manifesto rather than trying to cargo cult copy it.
Efficiency is often seen as a proxy for cheaper...wanted to shift away from that, even though it eventually does have a financial impact.
Efficiency is often seen as a proxy for cheaper...wanted to shift away from that, even though it eventually does have a financial impact.
i like thatโฆ efficiency is often met with โwhats the labor reduction/cost reduction and where is that showing up on the booksโ Pace and Flow doesnโt come with that connotation
Additionally, for the auditors, I'm sure efficiency = longer hours/less time, whereas pace and flow sounds more positive and leadership-inclusive, instead of finance-driven
Exactly that. Driving for cheaper is seen as cynical. Driving for better flow, value and pace is positively embraced.
@jtf Iโve been involved as an auditee in two internal audits since joining NBS a few months ago. The approach works really well and was a million miles away (thankfully) from the approach of answering a thousand questions and then hearing back months later what was wrong. The sprint and fast feedback approach was brilliant.
Love the focus on colleague engagement within IA, as well as satisfaction from those being audited
100% of auditees consider audits valuable ๐คฏโฆ awesome!
@eleanor.taylor you've done an amazing job here. My hypothesis is that your team understanding how "modern" teams work (by working that way yourselves) is a massive driver of your auditees valuing your input. Too often in the past auditors have been working at odds with Scrum teams by trying to force them back to old ways of working.
Itโs sounds really easy. Itโs not. BUT is worth every bit of effort.
Itโs sounds really easy. Itโs not. BUT is worth every bit of effort.
Great example for Marquet's 'Embrace the inspectors' from the viewpoint of the inspectors.
IA co-locate with business!!! (pre-COVID). Transparency.
Great examples of implementing Agile based on the spirit and principles rather than just the practices themselves
I found it really interesting that the drop in NPS was result of increased psychological safety. Similar to the original finding of Edmondson that nurses with higher psychological safety has a higher (reported!) error rate.
I found it really interesting that the drop in NPS was result of increased psychological safety. Similar to the original finding of Edmondson that nurses with higher psychological safety has a higher (reported!) error rate.
Expectations have a lot to do with it as well - if you raise expectations, then people will report being more dissatisfied
I agree re expectations. If youโre going to measure it, you need to respond otherwise people get fed up, more quickly!
Weโve used simple and complex. My favourites are ideaboardz and Miro . We also created a white board in excel while we were waiting for new tooling.
1Weโve used simple and complex. My favourites are ideaboardz and Miro . We also created a white board in excel while we were waiting for new tooling.
1As a recent convert (thank you @eleanor.taylor ) o can confirm that Miro is having a positive impact on a historically sceptical/scared of these topics
Loving the maturity of the SM role. The ideal is to move to a maturity where the team can coach themselves
Loving the maturity of the SM role. The ideal is to move to a maturity where the team can coach themselves
It works brilliantly - and our auditors learn though experience of new behaviours.
It is one of my top annoyances - people who do "Scrum by the book" which fails to realise the point of Scrum.
Nice use of Cynefin too - it's an awesome tool to place a team in their true habitat. It is also fun listening to non-Welsh people try to say it ๐
Haha...Iโm originally from Pontypool! I really like Cynefin and it helped us understand our work and what we needed much better.
Have you looked at the Organic Agile work based on the Anti-Fragile theories and Cynefin?
Yes, looked at Organic Agile. I like it. We have some coaches at NBS that are big fans.
I think it is where we inevitably move as we mature as Agile organisations. Less about the framework, and more about building systems that just respond.
I think @eleanor.taylor articulation or โinvite over inflictโ resonate incredibly well with Patrick and Janetโs keynote from earlier today
drop the jargon, keep the spirt < โค๏ธ
drop the jargon, keep the spirt < โค๏ธ
This is so true. But also difficult. A lot of people use the jargon to feel secure (or to make a point).
yes, using jargon, ceremonies, by-the-book is a way for people in a bureaucratic culture to feel safe, powerful.
@richard.james I really thought that Simon Rohrer's talk from yesterday resonated with that message too from the perspective enterprise architects and devs. Check it out if you haven't
@richard.james I really thought that Simon Rohrer's talk from yesterday resonated with that message too from the perspective enterprise architects and devs. Check it out if you haven't
Ha - yes - will do...very fortunate to be connected to Simon and learn from him frequently...again, watch out for a track around Technical Excellence in @jonathansmart1 โs upcoming book ๐
Leadership helping to "break the grass ceiling" <- my favourite phrase from last year DOES :-)
Make it safe to try < sounds like Edmondsonโs โframing for learningโ applied. Was Teaming a book that anyone referenced?
Make it safe to try < sounds like Edmondsonโs โframing for learningโ applied. Was Teaming a book that anyone referenced?
It was about how to get high performance out of ad-hoc teams, as opposed to long lived ones. It might not be relevant to your situation however the principles you were describing are echoed in the book.
"Evolution over revolution. And it's been transformational" ๐
Geek :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing::rolling_on_the_floor_laughing::rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
@jtf I do think we have some great learnings weโve leveraged from a range of authors/conferences and we are planning a Book Club based around your book too!!!!
@jtf I do think we have some great learnings weโve leveraged from a range of authors/conferences and we are planning a Book Club based around your book too!!!!
sounds like youโve invested in a culture of learning!
Never prejudge who will react well to new ways of working. People have always really surprised me who is enthusiastic and who not.
Never prejudge who will react well to new ways of working. People have always really surprised me who is enthusiastic and who not.
Yeah - think thatโs so true - โinnovatorsโ and โearly adoptersโ come from so many varied and unexpected places - but being open with the invite and working with who turns up has a brilliant impact ๐ฅฐ
love experiments!! Still makes me remember about a quote from @mark.schwartz experiments are a mean to reduce risk of failure!
love experiments!! Still makes me remember about a quote from @mark.schwartz experiments are a mean to reduce risk of failure!
Totally agree with this - itโs fascinating to see/sense/feel the emergence of experimentation as the go-to approach here...itโs not consistent but an increasingly visible reflection of how to tackle the uncertainties
Time for the Deming quote: โThe outcome of a system is a function of the system, not the people within it.โ
Time for the Deming quote: โThe outcome of a system is a function of the system, not the people within it.โ
โฆ which, btw, are the magic words to summon @jwillis ๐
Note how this slide could apply across any organisation. Not just one org and not just IA
thx @eleanor.taylor.... my favorite take aways from this talk. The high successfull value of internal audits!
This concept of โhaving colleagues focused on WoW Enablementโ is key to our ongoing progress - joint ventures with teams and leaders who are prepared to roll-up sleeves and join the journey themselves!
https://www.iata.org/en/publications/directories/code-search/?airport.search=GDN ๐
1000+ planetsโฆ and yet we canโt solve the three-body problem
Yes! sorry that is the airport code of Gdansk in Poland and FRA is the airport code of Frankfort Germany
good reminder about the problem when you have a gap between agile software development and software operations.
Itโs a Disciplined Agile concept from Scott Ambler & Mark Lines
Product Owner + โscrum masterโ + Architecture Owner
But we did not go the full DAD (Disciplined Agile Delivery) framework. We took what we think fits best to our needs.
Thatโs what we did at Barclays too. DAD is a v adaptive framework.
IT project leads apparently never die and survive every agile transformation
@rene.lippert is the Arch Owner considered a member of the team? If not seems a bit like someone outside the team imposing stuff on the team.
@rene.lippert is the Arch Owner considered a member of the team? If not seems a bit like someone outside the team imposing stuff on the team.
And this is still a point where we have to coach and foster that they are partners not competitors (what goes first into a sprint).
Yes agree. They need to work together. I see it as a sliding scale of responsibility of "what" mainly with the PO to "how" mainly with the AO.
Where we evolved this to is that AO is the equivalent of the eXtreme Programming Coach role
Not a command & control architect but a coach to let the team own the architecture
(& then the PO role evolves the same; โValue Coachโ)
We call the AOs "Service Owners", mainly because we modelled the whole thing in ServiceNow. With hindsight AO would have been a better term!
Yes, naming is hard!
At one point we had additional service owner role for taking the product into operations. We decided that was bad.
And unfortunately naming is very important, as it gives a strong indication of the intent.
@rene.lippert Is Macro architecture a lot about contracts between the different system components?
@rene.lippert Is Macro architecture a lot about contracts between the different system components?
Yes! And also topics like rules and guidelines of what is in the typical tech stack. So that OPS is not overwhelmed.
We have a set of rules. eg. Java is the default. But if the team can reason the exception they are allowed to go with it. C++ for the numbercrunching optimizer.
So "Devils's Advocate" question: If the team are running what they build, shouldn't they be free to choose the language they want?
Autonomy vs alignment again :)
There are a lot of operability challenges around being super permissive around languages
E.g. what open source security scanning tool do you use?
Does it support all the libraries you want to understand vulnerabilities from?
What static code analysis tools are you using. Etc. Etc.
Trick is to be reasonably permissive but not free-for-all.
Yes agree. We have a "menu" of basically Java, C# and JS and teams can choose from those pretty freely. If they want to go outside of that there's more of a conversation.
100%. Do you say โJavaโ or โJVM languagesโ though?
So if the team wants to use Kotlin do you care?
No it really is Java. Otherwise it's too difficult for people to move between teams. Moving from OO to a functional language is a big jump. Moving from C# to Java is trivial.
Interesting. How would you stop a team using Kotlin?
Kotlin wouldn't be a problem really. I meant more if they wanted to use something like Clojure
I really like the confessions the speaker makes. There is still work to do, which is the situation most of us are in ๐
1@rene.lippert your talk and journey would make a great book. Thank you for sharing your lessons so openly.
@rene.lippert your talk and journey would make a great book. Thank you for sharing your lessons so openly.
I'll have to re-watch this presentation, but one question around section 3... you designed an Architecture model, then 3 quality gates before starting Agile practice... that feels a bit... waterfall? Or was it more dynamic than it looked?
I'll have to re-watch this presentation, but one question around section 3... you designed an Architecture model, then 3 quality gates before starting Agile practice... that feels a bit... waterfall? Or was it more dynamic than it looked?
It happened a bit in parallel. We used the quality gates to support the transition of the teams into the agile world. You could say to support the change. Each team had its own speed and challenge to undergo. So we track that by quality gates. Each team had their own set of them any by this you could measure the progress. We started in a world where everything was centralized. So decentralization was the first quality gate. Then we need all the different roles been filled with real persons. So ready for Agile was second. And the third we are still working on Getting to the new Architecture.
Very nice @rene.lippert. I really enjoyed the mix of what worked, the mistakes, the lessons learned, and whatโs still to do. A model experience report IMHO.
It's so weird to see @corey not doing 'the face' that we get in every photo of him online
@corey how did you do the "talking head" transparent background for your recording?
โSpending a sarcastic amount of money on video equipment, recording a crappy video, and sending it to professionals who know what theyโre doing.โ
โSpending a sarcastic amount of money on video equipment, recording a crappy video, and sending it to professionals who know what theyโre doing.โ
I realize that sarcasm is your modus operandi, but I'm curious to know what you found to be worth said amount - did you go for a digital camera (I hear that they are much better than webcams)
Do you have examples of anywhere that has successfully tagged kubernetes in a reasonable way?
Our current way is going to be Node pools, so our biggest nodes will be easy to understand but the majority will be in small nodes that we haven't been able to explain why its hard. The finance department gets frustrated that we don't want to work with them. Definitely an area my team can get better at finding ways to show
@corey We weed automated data tiering in AWS for all storage. Just S3 has intelligent tiering AFAIK.
@corey is also doing Q&A after this session https://sched.co/cp4h
https://www.duckbillgroup.com/aws-super-simple-storage-calculator/ may be helpful. The differences in storage pricing between different AWS services areโฆ stark.
OMG I love the takedown of the multi-cloud "Cloud agnostic" myth.
@corey Multi-cloud sometimes is a necessity sometimes, especially when the cloud is used as the DR site for primary on-prem site given the latency requirements.
@corey Multi-cloud sometimes is a necessity sometimes, especially when the cloud is used as the DR site for primary on-prem site given the latency requirements.
I would argue - its very different to have more than one cloud in an enterprise (plenty of companies have more than one database, OS, etc) than chasing this idea that any application can be deployed to any cloud at any time.
Multi-cloud is the response to systemic risk when trillions of dollars ends up being managed by one cloud provider.
There are times itโs necessary; I donโt begrudge that any. But donโt dress it up as some kind of โbest practiceโ that youโd be dumb to not pursue, is my contention. ๐
Within the last few months, we got a new C suite and after a handful or reorgs, I can't find anyone who cares about the bill to take ownership to figure out why. Giving that stats or the money we are blowing hasn't motivated the old stakeholders to care anymore. Do you have suggestions on what I could get their attention with?
> โThey are the payday lender of technical debtโ :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
Do you have preferences between Savings Plans or Reserved Instances on what is generally more cost effective?
Are you sure they care? There may be something else afoot to the point where the bill isnโt actually that meaningful to the business.
(Selling on the secondary market and capitalizing the spend are the two big exception cases. A third is โthe tool we overpay for doesnโt speak Savings Plans yetโ but Iโm less sympathetic to that one.)
Thanks! Thereโs a Zoom Q&A now for those who want to hurl questions, insults, etc at me.
My experience is that some companies (manufacturing for instance) understand the idea of variable cost utilities. E.g. electricity and water. They just did not historically put IT costs into that model. If you can talk to finance in that language; they have a toolkit to understand and manage it (maybe)
I am looking at AWS cost calculator. Amazon's calculator doesn't cut it. There are some paid ones out there but basically they are fancy excel sheets with fields pre-populated.
I guess multi cloud is good, as long as you are using the different cloud offerings the individual have and do not have workloads that actual span different clouds ?
The DOJO Consortium - A Living Scenius Project (US Bank, Verizon, Walmart) is on this track
Ross and @stacielorrapeterson - miss you friends at TGT :hugging_face:
Ross and @stacielorrapeterson - miss you friends at TGT :hugging_face:
Have you captured those standard questions (and answers) in some sort of FAQ @bryan.finster?
Have you captured those standard questions (and answers) in some sort of FAQ @bryan.finster?
Thanks for stopping in John! Love to have you speak to the Consortium some time.
We've not yet. We are still learning. We're running experiments right now at WM, but I don't have results yet.
There are regular talks on this topic, and one of our members is working on a write up
I have been running hybrid ones. Several full remote one are coming. I'd love to share experience.
@bryan.finster @stacielorrapeterson @roger.d.servey Johann here from Melbourne Australia. I'm an Agile / DevOps coach. Would love to bring the dojo consortium to Australia
@bryan.finster @stacielorrapeterson @roger.d.servey Johann here from Melbourne Australia. I'm an Agile / DevOps coach. Would love to bring the dojo consortium to Australia
Hi @johann.tambayah - I run the NAB Cloud Guild and we do bootcamps rather than true dojo but willing to bring the it to our shores
For sure! We have a linkedIn group and a Slack org. If you DM me your email I'll add you to Slack.
@matthew.cobby I was at NAB a short while back helping with lean portfolio management! We built an obeya room for the new ceo too! We should catch up some time to work on this ?
Thanks very much. @bryan.finster my email is <mailto:johann@thedeliverylead.com|johann@thedeliverylead.com>
We're all pretty aligned on lead time. Most of us will be driving deploy frequency, change fail, etc.
At WM we drive some of the tactical CI metrics pretty heavily as well. PR frequency, story size, etc.
Some teams use hygienist to measure the before and after affects on code, build success , Defects, etc...
Depends on what you want to influence, but I have a Quadrant picture I worked on years ago with metrics that are outcome based in 4 Quadrants to help balance the set of metrics for the enterprise.
Yes, we track development metrics constantly while helping teams. Our Dojo is focused on improved delivery flow, so our metrics are focused on that.
โyou need to tailor it to why they want to changeโ < so important!
Yes, it's so important to be contextual to the team's need.
We are currently using DOJOs to help teams adopt BDD, TDD, Paring/Mobbing, Product Management (Story Mapping, Sample Mappings, etc), C4 models, etc. All together as a squad which helps with team empathy for each others roles.
We are currently using DOJOs to help teams adopt BDD, TDD, Paring/Mobbing, Product Management (Story Mapping, Sample Mappings, etc), C4 models, etc. All together as a squad which helps with team empathy for each others roles.
Thatโs so cool! I love the empathy for each other part and blurring the roles lines!
We started physical but have moved to virtual using MS Teams, Mural, and Whiteboard, in addition to our standard tool set of Jira, Confluence
@matthew.cobby we had physical Dojoโs before COVID at Target and similar at US Bank that teams both permanently sat in or rotations of several weeks in and out. We used the new space remodeled for agile teams as a test at first, over cubicles and then teams just stay there and we remodel a new space for the next teams coming in. Now post covid everyone is remote and using video conf and tools like Mural, Teams, etc. I can tell you more if your interested to get together
That would be great, thanks @stacielorrapeterson. We've been solving a very different problem but I feel that we are at an inflection point.
Well done @stacielorrapeterson, @roger.d.servey & @bryan.finster.
How has everyone found the switch to virtual? We had a rough start but I think we are stronger than before
How has everyone found the switch to virtual? We had a rough start but I think we are stronger than before
Itโs been a big change. Seminole. We have had many talks as all members pivot to the virtual dojo
We had members in the vanguard and doing this prior who brought their lessons and helped so many of us doing this important immersive learning
We moved to a virtual setting due to COVID, using tech like MS Teams, Whiteboard, & Mural.
We are trying to make the best of it, but I personally like being in person with a team, and having the whiteboards and the ability to be with people physically when learning. I miss it!
We got lucky we had already invested in MS Teams for our collaboration and ChatOps. When COVID came around we did not have much of a challenge to move to virtual.
Regarding Dojos, do you people organize some sort of a gathering during the networking sessions? If you do, I'd love to connect
Regarding Dojos, do you people organize some sort of a gathering during the networking sessions? If you do, I'd love to connect
We had a meetup in the Twin Cities last year. Our meetup this year was cancelled, for obvious reasons. We have bi-weekly conference calls and are doing monthly presentations.
No such plans for this event, but we are intending this for Las Vegas in person this fall.
No reason why we couldn't plan one though. Not like everyone is flying out tomorrow.
Our community is growing each day. We welcome new ideas and new members to join our community and share their stories , adding to our shared strengths!
@roger.d.servey thank you for accepting my request. Looking forward to collaborate with the group.