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2020-06-24
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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)10:06:47

After break, welcome speaker @olivier.jacques and @chrisswan to Q&A!

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Chris Swan10:06:20

I'm here. Wishing that @olivier.jacques and I had taken some photos of our green screen setups to go with the other 'making of' shots that @genek101 showed earlier.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:46

@ross.clanton508 has helped so many people

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Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:47

What we are about to show was totally inspired from earlier DOES conferences.

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Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:47

What we are about to show was totally inspired from earlier DOES conferences.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:58

I got a Target Dojo sticker from him at DOES in 2015 and had it on my Walmart Laptop until I had to use my laptop to present a DOES in 2017. ๐Ÿ˜„

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:28

Hope to connect in the Dojo Consortium. ๐Ÿ˜„

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Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:01

I've been very inspired by the dojo work presented and we are shifting out Engineering BootCamp into more hands on learning

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:43

We're looking for ways to scale hands on learning. This is a really good demo.

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:28

I'd like to highlight that this Open Source project - the Online DevOps Dojo - is one of the pieces of our DevOps Dojos. We highlighted the full program in one of the earlier DevOps Enterprise summit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhokY2UpBqI

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Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:28

I'd like to highlight that this Open Source project - the Online DevOps Dojo - is one of the pieces of our DevOps Dojos. We highlighted the full program in one of the earlier DevOps Enterprise summit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhokY2UpBqI

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Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:09

We split DevOps Dojo in 4 pieces: โ€ข The white belt DevOps Dojo is the "what": understand what DevOps is and how it is different. โ€ข The Green Belt is the "why": for leaders (we all are leaders according to Jonathan Smart!) and executives, so that they can understand the dynamics and support DevOps transformations. โ€ข The Yellow Belt is the "how": it goes through various patterns, mostly articulated around the Accelerate book.

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:37

The Online DevOps Dojo is our Open Source version of the Yellow Belt DevOps Dojo. Finally, we have a Black Belt DevOps Dojo, which is what is the closest to the other Dojos I know of (from Target, Verizon, Delta Airlines, Walmart, ...).

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:25

We are trying to implement something similar.

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:04

Regarding the cultural / technical modules: we had to invent ways, with Katacoda, to go beyond terminal and markdown. I was inspired by very old Apple ][ games I played at my computer club ๐Ÿ˜

Chris Swan10:06:23

I should shout out to the #Weaveworks folk for introducing me to Katacoda

Chris Swan10:06:02

and also note that Katacoda was recently acquired by O'Reilly - so congrats to Ben and the team on that

Giulio Vian10:06:41

720p it's not enough for your demo, what a pity

Giulio Vian10:06:41

720p it's not enough for your demo, what a pity

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:38

@gvian, right. Feel free to actually go through it in 4K: https://dxc-technology.github.io/about-devops-dojo/modules/

Chris Swan10:06:48

Not helped by the windowing around our video (which was recorded at 1080p)๐Ÿ˜ข

Giulio Vian10:06:29

one more reason to explore after the conference has cool down ๐Ÿ˜‰

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:48

Regarding Katacoda, the platform which hosts these modules: it allows for students to have their own, ephemeral, environment directly from their browser, without any setup, which helps a lot reduce "the noise", and focus on the actual learning. When it comes to technical modules, I often find myself spending (too much) time in helping people setting up GIT, ssh keys, Jenkins or Grafana, and other details which are not the most important techniques we want them to learn.

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:53

We have built our own Cloud 9 service available through a service catalogue to get around the same problems. The problem with their laptop still exists and we want them to leave being able to build back at their desk.

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:53

We have built our own Cloud 9 service available through a service catalogue to get around the same problems. The problem with their laptop still exists and we want them to leave being able to build back at their desk.

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:42

GitHub and GitLab are both looking to address this leveraging Visual Studio Code in the browser

Giulio Vian10:06:52

it's the Codespaces beta, isn't it?

Giulio Vian10:06:47

it's a new GitHub offering ping ppl on #xpo-github

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:50

#xpo-github - you may be interested in connecting

Chris Swan10:06:52

MS Learn has many of the same features as Katacoda, but also great integration with Azure, and I'd also expect great integration with VS Code Similarly Google have Qwiklabs, which is integrated to their stuff.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:46

Oh yes, I remember that now.

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:24

We have done pre-sessions to work out all the problems and scripts to run tests but it's still painful.

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:22

Someone here did build a prototype of remote VScode but it has zero security features right now.

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Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:22

Someone here did build a prototype of remote VScode but it has zero security features right now.

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Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:48

Thanks! Our internal prototype took this code and deployed in our cloud context. Security had challenges with it so put it down for now but will go back to it

Chris Swan10:06:22

As there's a fair bit of discussion about the platform, some thoughts from last year on the future of tech skills training - http://blog.thestateofme.com/2019/02/12/the-future-of-tech-skills-training/

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Chris Swan10:06:45

I particularly like the 'escape room' nature of challenge labs in Qwiklabs

Chris Swan10:06:01

One thing I've discovered since writing that is https://repl.it/

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:01

Regarding the story and the characters - I believe storytelling really is a powerful way to gain momentum, take people from where they are today, to where they can be next. I find it fascinating that the "Phoenix Project", or the "Unicorn Project" had such an impact on our industry. Beyond the great content, the story is what resonates with so many of us. We often refer to the "Brent"s when talking about constraints, the heroes who end up causing more harm than good to the system. Did you notice? The story of the Online DevOps Dojo is also Open Source (for example, from the welcome module: https://github.com/dxc-technology/online-devops-dojo/blob/master/online-devops-dojo/welcome/step2.md). I'm excited to find out where we can get this next with the help of everyone.

Ryan Marfurt10:06:16

What has the usage of the online Dojo platform been like? Have you made an special efforts to get people to use the Dojo?

Ryan Marfurt10:06:16

What has the usage of the online Dojo platform been like? Have you made an special efforts to get people to use the Dojo?

Chris Swan10:06:43

We've had >26,000 people through the entry level 'white belt'

Chris Swan10:06:29

and yes, there was a push from the top to do that. When we first started one of the things I asked the EVP of delivery to do was to run through the training himself so that he could show leadership from the front

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:36

Impressive! How do you keep record of belts? Badging platforms? Excel ๐Ÿ˜‚

Chris Swan10:06:54

he came back to me with some wrinkles on using Katacoda on his iPad ๐Ÿ˜•

Chris Swan10:06:30

@matthew.cobby we host the training in our learning management platform (Sabacloud), and @olivier.jacques drove the creation of badging capability

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:25

These modules are in our LMS / Learning Management System, this is how we track. Now, we (DXC labs) also created a very lightweight badging platform (serverless), which we may leverage to gamify all this even in the open source version.

Chris Swan10:06:38

@bryan.finster we get reporting out of the Sabacloud learning management system

Chris Swan10:06:25

@pgibbs1587 white, yellow, green, black; and we broke yellow (that this module comes from) into multiple stripes

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:57

We've a similar idea, but hadn't solidified what they would represent. Do you also badge teams for outcomes?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:18

We're looking at using delivery metrics to do that.

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Chris Swan10:06:39

@bryan.finster we haven't come up with a team badging approach, but that's an idea we should probably dig into

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:19

I think both are very valuable.

Preston Gibbs - DevOps Dojo Sensei - Walmart10:06:35

Whats the time frame it takes to go from white to black belt?

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:27

Its the gamification of badging we are looking to tap into. We can integrate to our LMS but it's an Oracle system that is hard to use and no-one goes to unless they have to We'd like to build a tool like the AWS Phone Book

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:44

Something that people see and can help find SMEs across the org

Chris Swan10:06:57

@pgibbs1587 at least 6 months to get to black belt, but usually longer than that. At one stage we were frequently running on site 'buildathons' for one of our big initiatives, and that allowed us to grow black belts a little quicker

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:04

@matthew.cobby yes, we have an internal "team roster" that's used to glue many things together with HR data. Something like that helps.

Chris Swan10:06:14

@matthew.cobby for some other stuff we were also using Open Badge Academy before it shut down, which we've now had to replace with an internally developed DXC Badger

Thomas Williams10:06:43

Are you using the katacode usage metrics for your badges?

Chris Swan11:06:07

@tommy we do look at the Katacoda usage metrics, but they're not used for the badges

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:25

Hope everyone joins us to talk about the industry collaboration on helping teams improve so teams can deploy more and sleep better. DevOps Enterprise Summit London Virtual: The DOJO Consortium - A Living Scenius P... https://virtualdevopsenterprisesumm.sched.com/event/cHTs/the-dojo-consortium-a-living-scenius-project-us-bank-verizon-walmart?iframe=no&amp;w=100%25&amp;sidebar=yes&amp;bg=no

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Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:29

It's a lot to have a guided script to learn, and also to let people explore.

inactive10:06:52

Looking good up there, @olivier.jacques and @chrisswan!!!!

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Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:09

It's Open Source ! Would be awesome to collaborate with all of you on GitHub - https://dxc-technology.github.io/about-devops-dojo/

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:09

It's Open Source ! Would be awesome to collaborate with all of you on GitHub - https://dxc-technology.github.io/about-devops-dojo/

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:26

yes, i think we can commit to that happening.

Thomas Williams10:06:12

Great conversation in here!

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:44

Is there much requirements on the backend infra? e..g Jenkins?

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:44

Is there much requirements on the backend infra? e..g Jenkins?

Olivier Jacques, DXC10:06:14

None. All the modules are provisioned dynamically. It is Docker based.

Chris Swan10:06:52

Jenkins runs on top of the Katacoda platform, so our only external dependency is GitHub. We use our enterprise GitHub for the internal Dojo with the full range of modules and public GitHub for the open sourced modules. It could be easily adapted to use another enterprise GitHub (or GitLab, Bitbucket etc.)

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:19

I didn't realize that. Brilliant.

Matt Cobby (NAB)10:06:05

@olivier.jacques @chrisswan Love to catch up after all this is over for a chat and compare notes

Chris Swan10:06:26

Katacoda is all based on containers, so we can glue multiple containers together to create a full environment

Chris Swan11:06:25

@matthew.cobby we can find a time to connect - I'll DM you my work email

Preston Gibbs - DevOps Dojo Sensei - Walmart10:06:04

Great Presentation @olivier.jacques and @chrisswan

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Naren Yellavula10:06:08

@olivier.jacques and @chrisswan, That's a wonderful way to train DevOps, will check it out for sure.

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:25

The Nike/Unicorn hoodie...

Raji Natt at Sonatype10:06:06

Hey! Sonatype collaborated with @genek101 and @stephen on the State of the Software Supply Chain report, download a copy of the paper here: https://www.sonatype.com/en-us/software-supply-chain-2019

Thomas Williams10:06:13

@genek Saw your talk at Clojureconj. Glad to see Stephen here, and learn more about the study.

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Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:04

Hi @tommy โ€” nice to meet you!

Giulio Vian11:06:24

I think you'll define outcomes later

Giulio Vian11:06:24

I think you'll define outcomes later

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:59

Yep โ€” outcomes are things like popularity & security. We give more detail later in the talk.

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Thomas Williams11:06:27

I saw that scary sql query you wrote, Stephen**!

inactive11:06:31

This was such a fun project!!!

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inactive11:06:33

@tommy YES! @stephen was the person who wrote those Postgres queries that would take overnight runs to complete!!! Hahaha. @stephen: you could hear the groan of sympathy as I showed that query to everyone!!!

inactive11:06:33

@tommy YES! @stephen was the person who wrote those Postgres queries that would take overnight runs to complete!!! Hahaha. @stephen: you could hear the groan of sympathy as I showed that query to everyone!!!

Thomas Williams11:06:25

Haha ๐Ÿ˜‚ this is super neat.

Giulio Vian11:06:02

outcomes number of projects using a library, same but weighted by downloads, I can think of many defintions

inactive11:06:17

@tommy That was such a fun conj โ€”ย was telling @stephen how much fun and how mind-blowing it was to hear Rich Hickey talk about coupling.

inactive11:06:17

@tommy That was such a fun conj โ€”ย was telling @stephen how much fun and how mind-blowing it was to hear Rich Hickey talk about coupling.

Thomas Williams11:06:58

Yep, that's pretty awesome, getting to hang out with Rich. Dude's a legend! ;)

Michael Winslow11:06:04

Way to be a good wing man @genek101! "advance the slides"

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Michael Winslow11:06:04

Way to be a good wing man @genek101! "advance the slides"

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inactive11:06:45

Good seeing you, buddy!

Michael Winslow11:06:46

Loving this one Gene ... I like how you are moving at a digestible pace. I remember vividly having a conversation with someone about "Maven" where the person across from me was completely lost for 5-10 minutes. Then he said "Oh! Like npm! ... Now can you start over?"

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:35

Weโ€™re capturing the live experience in recorded form ๐Ÿ™‚

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Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:35

Weโ€™re capturing the live experience in recorded form ๐Ÿ™‚

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Giulio Vian11:06:34

I was looking about the framed certificates at your back and thinking about the size of mine, poster-size

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:28

Yeah, I think CMU tried to win the โ€œlargest diplomaโ€ award.

Michael Winslow11:06:31

When my family was moving a few years ago, the movers told me that they could move my wife's U of Miami diploma but not my Rowan University diploma (too small) ๐Ÿ™‚

inactive11:06:55

Iโ€™m bragging about the code I wrote to scrape all the repo data in Clojure! ๐Ÿ™‚ @tommy

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inactive11:06:55

Iโ€™m bragging about the code I wrote to scrape all the repo data in Clojure! ๐Ÿ™‚ @tommy

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Thomas Williams11:06:22

Awesome. I've been pretty non-technical the last 2 years, but have been diving back into Clojure on the side, as you challenged "not staying technical". Been hard, but a blast! Loving Re-fame.

inactive11:06:01

YES!! Love re-frame โ€”ย but wow, it took a lot of reading before I actually knew what to do! ๐Ÿ™‚ So delighted that you jumped into Clojure โ€”ย it really changed my life.

Thomas Williams11:06:24

Oh yeah, I had been learning Clojure a few years back. But yes... still plenty of reading and watching Eric Normand, before any progress. Lol.

Tom Ayerst11:06:33

Eric Normand FTW! ๐Ÿ™‚

Tom Ayerst11:06:33

I really want a clojure that runs on the BEAM VM

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)11:06:50

โ€œPredict the average size of developersโ€ - bit personal isnโ€™t it?

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:54

no impact from CI?! what?

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:54

no impact from CI?! what?

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:01

Yeah, it was surprising. I will say that dataset was sparse. There were not a lot of projects in our dataset with github repos with Travis or Circle CI configs.

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:00

I would say it indicates either 1) the effect is not huge or 2) there is some substantial use of CI that we werenโ€™t capturing (e.g. separately-managed infrastructure that is not provided by Travis or Circle)

inactive11:06:46

Yeah, it was very surprising โ€”ย but we saw something similar in the State of DevOps Report. Use of version control didnโ€™t correlate with performance, for instance.

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Sandeep Joshi11:06:21

More commits donโ€™t mean more productivity.. My view is โ€œProductivity without quality is liabilityโ€

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Sandeep Joshi11:06:21

More commits donโ€™t mean more productivity.. My view is โ€œProductivity without quality is liabilityโ€

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Michael Winslow11:06:51

Software is an asset .. code is a liability!

inactive11:06:20

Iโ€™ve come to peace on this โ€”ย to me, itโ€™s a measure of batch size. One of my favorite metrics from SODR was commits/dev/day, which increases linearly for high performers, flat for medium performers, and goes DOWN for low performers.

Sandeep Joshi11:06:09

Does it apply to all types of work? For instance for ML or AI work you might be a high performer even though your commits are low

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:37

(it occurs to me that the joy I got from using open source sw in 2001--being able to contact the code authors directly with questions--is being replicated as the authors of these talks answer questions in real time. ๐Ÿ™‚)

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inactive11:06:58

@michael_winslow I feel like โ€œGooseโ€ in Top Gun, keeping Maverick out of trouble. ๐Ÿ™‚

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inactive11:06:58

@michael_winslow I feel like โ€œGooseโ€ in Top Gun, keeping Maverick out of trouble. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Olivier Jacques, DXC11:06:22

Steve sees the arrows before they happen on screen. Anticipation!

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:46

So... you feel a need...?

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:24

๐Ÿ™Œ:skin-tone-2:

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inactive11:06:01

3.5 years!!! HAHAHA. So sad!!!

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:10

p95 = 3.5y? You just broke Datadog.

Giulio Vian11:06:33

having some projects out there in GH I see the difference between full-time and amateur

inactive11:06:49

It is actually really interesting โ€”ย I never had to indicate to @stephen to advance the slide. It just sort of happened. Was uncanny.

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:54

also whatโ€™s crazy is that these are all projects that did eventually update. Like what happened after 3.5 years that made them finally decide to catch up?

Michael Winslow11:06:09

Did I miss something ... did you cut out "never updated" from your data set?

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:37

yes! this excludes projects that never updated anything.

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:57

we wanted to track โ€œtime to updateโ€ and so we canโ€™t compute that for projects with no updates.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:34

"Most projects stay secure by staying up to date."

Nikhil Bajpai11:06:48

@stephen, Does MuseDev supports .NET ?

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:20

Not yet โ€” Java, C / C++, Python, Javascript right now. But .NET is on our radar.

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inactive11:06:40

(@stephen @tommy It was on this project that my first time getting a ton of Java null pointer exceptions. I eventually learned that the Java.math functions arenโ€™t nil safeโ€ฆ. Seemed soโ€ฆ primitive!)

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Tom Ayerst11:06:41

Continuous modernizationโ€ฆ ๐Ÿ˜‰

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:46

H3 - can't wait to hear this

Michael Winslow11:06:52

Best way to stay secure is to write code that no one cares about! :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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inactive11:06:35

Yeah, this was so startling. โ€œmore dependencies === more developers (as measured by commits / month / active devsโ€

Michael Winslow11:06:31

More developers bring their dependencies with them!

Thomas Williams11:06:35

Please let this one be true.

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inactive11:06:43

โ€ฆwait for itโ€ฆ

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Giulio Vian11:06:22

but also bigger projects => more complexities => more features => more libraries

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inactive11:06:34

โ€ฆthis is actually quite a troubling findingโ€ฆ the mental heuristic of looking at # of forks/stars is not at all effectiveโ€ฆ

Thomas Williams11:06:45

Troubling, indeed.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:51

Wow. Humans are weird.

Jiล™รญ Klouda11:06:22

It is almost like when people use popularity in celebrities as substitute for intelligence.

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:46

This was so surprising. It was one of very few hypotheses we tested that didnโ€™t find a statistically significant difference across groups.

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems11:06:55

If my project has a library that didn't update it's dependencies, how would that show up? Would that look like my project has a vulnerability it didnt update, even though its the library with the vulnerability?

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems11:06:55

If my project has a library that didn't update it's dependencies, how would that show up? Would that look like my project has a vulnerability it didnt update, even though its the library with the vulnerability?

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:38

depends on what tooling youโ€™re using to check security of dependencies

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:00

it might be just marked as a vulnerability or maybe a โ€œtransitive vulnerabilityโ€ (or similar term)

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:05

but update performance of libraries is not obvious at all just by looking at the repo / code / etc. it needs to be computed from historical update data which is not easy. still working on a good way to fix this and provide all that data to everyone. for now we have a list of the top projects in terms of update behavior in the report.

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Thomas Williams11:06:14

Have a direct link @stephen?

Mitun Zavery11:06:20

@dacahill7 jus to echo @stephen this is a challenge most organisations face as its a real struggle for all Developers and Maintainers. Ideally PPT (People, Process and Tools) still applies and its understanding what that vulnerability is so that you can either remediate, upgrade the direct dependency or simply use something else. This is across Dev and Security, but ultimately you want to make sure you have the right tool to identify if it is a True Vuln or not. Take a look at some of the things https://www.sonatype.com work on to get an idea of the best way to tackle this https://www.sonatype.com/wp-developer-demo-book

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Giulio Vian11:06:07

popularity => audience with need satisfied

inactive11:06:16

Wanna see something really weird? Look at the area near the origin โ€”ย itโ€™s like it repels all the dots. There are no popular projects that donโ€™t release frequently!! (Itโ€™s like itโ€™s not worth release frequently unless youโ€™re sufficiently popular?) @stephen

inactive11:06:20

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Michael Winslow11:06:24

So how can we get the StackOverflow โœ”๏ธ level of trust???

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:32

@stephen the NOTA group looks like it's 50% of the population

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:32

@stephen the NOTA group looks like it's 50% of the population

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:02

Yes, thereโ€™s a substantial middle ground between the exemplars and the laggards.

inactive11:06:20

(PS: I LOVE being in a slack channel while โ€œgiving your presentationโ€ โ€”ย such an interesting dynamic!!!)

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inactive11:06:20

(PS: I LOVE being in a slack channel while โ€œgiving your presentationโ€ โ€”ย such an interesting dynamic!!!)

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Michael Winslow11:06:35

@richard431 said you have a cloning machine!

Thomas Williams11:06:00

Yeah, this is something you can't do in-person... I wonder if continuing an online virtual conference remains in the cards, "post-covid".

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:20

I wish our elected officials would do this

inactive11:06:02

Was just talking about that with @mik last night. I suspect our physical conferences will definitely be different in future, given this experiene!!!

Arne Rossmann11:06:09

@genek101 this is an incredible experience, having you both on screen and in chat at the same time! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:54

So interesting! Thank you @stephen and @genek101 ๐Ÿ‘:skin-tone-2:

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inactive11:06:56

@tommy โ€œbreaking changesโ€ โ€”ย this is what I was asking Rich Hickey about. His opinions are so far from common wisdom that they almost sound crazy โ€”ย but I think heโ€™s probably absolutely correct.

inactive11:06:56

@tommy โ€œbreaking changesโ€ โ€”ย this is what I was asking Rich Hickey about. His opinions are so far from common wisdom that they almost sound crazy โ€”ย but I think heโ€™s probably absolutely correct.

Thomas Williams11:06:48

Yeah.. Makes a lot of sense. #Datomic

Thomas Williams11:06:34

Looking forward to seeing if you use Datomic on the next one.

Thomas Williams11:06:54

Have you got to use it any further?

Giulio Vian11:06:06

it's all in the community of people behind and I do not think that Javascript community shines in good engineering practices

Giulio Vian11:06:34

a focus on short-term solution ex. I was shocked by React idea of building/packaging for a specific target environment it implies that what you test in environment X is different from what you deploy on env Y

inactive11:06:23

Pity JavaScript/npm devs, where everything breaks when you update.

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Michael Winslow11:06:25

Open-Close -- always!

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:32

Where can we get the report? @stephen

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Brandon Ferrari11:06:34

Thank you for the talk! Loved all the data and analysis in this one

Ciaran Byrne11:06:45

Thank you @genek101 and @stephen ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

inactive11:06:52

Thanks @stephen and @weeks @brianf โ€”ย was so fun!!!

Michael Winslow11:06:59

This was great thanks @stephen and @genek101!

Tom Ayerst11:06:03

๐Ÿ‘:skin-tone-5:

Marcello Marrocos11:06:21

Nice talk, great findings! Thanks @genek101 and @stephen

Thomas Williams11:06:29

Thanks @genek and @stephen! Great presentation and research.

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems11:06:24

@genek101 or @stephen Now that I sit here and think about my projects at work: I know that for some of our projects, we haven't been updating some of the npm dependencies because it isn't a priority or currently causing issues. Do you have suggestions on how to get this type of work prioritized or get product leadership excited to stay on top of this?

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems11:06:24

@genek101 or @stephen Now that I sit here and think about my projects at work: I know that for some of our projects, we haven't been updating some of the npm dependencies because it isn't a priority or currently causing issues. Do you have suggestions on how to get this type of work prioritized or get product leadership excited to stay on top of this?

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Jonathan Garzon11:06:55

Hi Daniel, yes - let me set up a quick call with one of my colleagues to discuss this. ๐Ÿ™‚

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]11:06:41

Thanks everyone for attending the talk โ€” if anyone wants to discuss more feel free to DM me on slack.

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Michael Winslow11:06:02

@stephen and @genek101 again that was great! I remember being in a startup (Adminserver) in 2007-2008 where we had this huge fire drill to catalog every dependency in our software and determine how up-to-date we were. Turned out it was because we were getting bought by Oracle! Another factor to think about as a "cause for updating"!

Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:01

I'm looking forward to the Q&A during the talk at 13:25 with me and @me1208 on Team Topologies ๐Ÿ“— ๐Ÿ’ฌ ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿ’ฌ ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿ’ฌ ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿค“

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:01

I'm looking forward to the Q&A during the talk at 13:25 with me and @me1208 on Team Topologies ๐Ÿ“— ๐Ÿ’ฌ ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿ’ฌ ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿ’ฌ ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿค“

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty12:06:29

Its still morning in the US so my brain is moving slower, but I am still blown away that popularity and dependency updating has no correlation. This has blown up a longstanding assumption I have had (and have probably forced my opinion on others)

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty12:06:29

Its still morning in the US so my brain is moving slower, but I am still blown away that popularity and dependency updating has no correlation. This has blown up a longstanding assumption I have had (and have probably forced my opinion on others)

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)12:06:29

I wonder how we could gate on that?

Giulio Vian12:06:36

IMHO there are many factors to consider one is where a project lies in the cycle e.g. older projects might have lots of popularity but little changes and core maintainers moved to new interests

Giulio Vian12:06:41

another is the tools that help/support in managing dependencies how automated is the flow from CVE to updated dependencies and how much is manual?

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:07

Looking forward to chat with folks here during my talk with @matthew

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:33

Video showing now in Track 3 ๐ŸŽฌ

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Giulio Vian12:06:40

stream started a bit earlier

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:44

Eventual consistency ๐Ÿ˜„

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)12:06:08

Welcome @matthew and @me1208!

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:42

We recommend avoiding complicated subsystem teams when possible. If you can provide those functionalities in a self-service type of platform that's much better.

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:12

Makes lots of sense. Did they manage to get CRM as a self-service platform? Thatโ€™s an awesome aspiration.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:24

Otherwise you can easily get into component team anti-patterns / dependencies / Bottlenecks

Giulio Vian12:06:24

I found that teams using CRM chose a bad packaging at the start, splitting along technology instead of business features

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:26

So a Complicated Subsystem is sort of a mini-platform with a single purpose/focus. Certainly, many of the behaviours around each are very similar.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:00

Yes indeed - Iโ€™ve seen CRM done badly many times, and well very few. The technologies donโ€™t help - Dynamics, Salesforce, etc.

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Giulio Vian12:06:32

they have a security layer, a data layer, a UI layer shared by all teams instead of vertical slices (yes, some cross-concerns are ok but very limited)

Giulio Vian12:06:27

I saw this multiple times with SharePoint, Dyanmics it's not the platform it's the community that have lots of business and data knowledge but little Dev & DevOps background

Giulio Vian12:06:29

anecdotal but when you see a pattern repeating across companies and technologies... you know it nails something

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:48

100%, and - for example - configuration management in Salesforce is almost non-existent.

Rui Pedro Saraiva12:06:30

hail @me1208

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Renรฉ Lippert12:06:58

@matthew so Gym company also split the code repo into streams?

Renรฉ Lippert12:06:58

@matthew so Gym company also split the code repo into streams?

Richard Allen12:06:36

Yes as we began to break the monolith into smaller parts and therefore separate into repositories where appropriate

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:46

How do you think about and categorize common components in terms of teams? Things like Workflow Management & UI components

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:46

How do you think about and categorize common components in terms of teams? Things like Workflow Management & UI components

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:42

i have many teams that end up building their own workflow management, their own UI components, etcโ€ฆ is that just an innersourcing problem?

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:18

That might happen because they don't see their needs addressed by other teams.

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:19

Platform and enabling teams need to keep at top of mind that their goal is to reduce cogntive load / effort of stream teams around aspects not directly related to their business focus

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:22

yeahโ€ฆ i think it has come about now as the default position and we donโ€™t explore what other teams have doneโ€ฆ probably a different problem than team structure ๐Ÿ™‚

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:28

Often the problem is about how teams interact and understand their purpose

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:43

Iโ€™ve been preaching inner sourcing within my area of focusโ€ฆ if another teamโ€™s components do not meet their needs, bias towards inner sourcing and contributing as opposed to building your own.

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:28

Hi @rene.lippert - yes. There was originally a single code repository, and PureGym split this into smaller repositories aligned to the different streams and platform, etc. But they waited until they had a clear picture of the right "fracture planes" before splitting the codebase ๐Ÿ™‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations12:06:49

At PureGym, who was the person who recognized that Team Topologies could help, what was their role?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations12:06:49

At PureGym, who was the person who recognized that Team Topologies could help, what was their role?

Richard Allen12:06:37

I worked with John Kilmister and was trying to get them to move to product/stream aligned teams for a while, but when the TT book came out it cemented some of the concepts and provided the catalyst to make the change

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:43

BEst ask @richard.allen who led many of the activities ๐Ÿ™‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations12:06:32

So it sound like you had an idea of what would be helpful already @richard.allen and then the book helped by giving a framework and a common languageโ€ฆ is that right?

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:12

We rather avoid calling it a "framework" :)

Richard Allen12:06:57

@jtf yes that sounds about right

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:01

The way Rich Allen told it to me was that the book arrived at JUST THE RIGHT TIME ๐ŸŽ‰ - an on-time delivery ๐Ÿ“ฆ

Torben Froelund12:06:44

How do PureGym handle shift in workload between streams, when business focus shifts from one to another area?

Torben Froelund12:06:44

How do PureGym handle shift in workload between streams, when business focus shifts from one to another area?

Richard Allen12:06:10

Depending on the business goals each different team might be impacted in different ways so there may be times where the teams to need to collaborate for a period of time

Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:38

My understanding is that part of the reason for taking 3 months to look at the streams was to find good streams and so avoid the need to switch priority often between streams. Is that right, @richard.allen?

Torben Froelund12:06:10

@richard.allen so teams also have to work out of their "own" streams, having to know other areas also?

Richard Allen12:06:22

Yes, certainly the intention is to avoid the constant switch in business focus that seemed apparent when using project and BAU teams

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Richard Allen12:06:27

@tfr the teams "own" their streams and the products within their stream but they would only need to know how to use the X-As-A-Service published by the other platforms etc - goal is to decouple the teams as much as possible

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Torben Froelund12:06:48

@richard.allen makes sense, I have the same situation with my 7 DevOps teams, they have own area, but has to be able to work in "neighboring" areas, main focus is to keep stable team. The tricky part is finding those good streams that are long lasting with constant flow of work from business

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:33

To find good streams for fast flow of change can be hard - needs new skills and ways of thinking. Some places to start: 1. Independent Service Heuristics: https://github.com/TeamTopologies/Independent-Service-Heuristics 2. DDD Starter Modeling Process: https://github.com/ddd-crew/ddd-starter-modelling-process/ 3. DDD in general: https://dddcommunity.org/learning-ddd/what_is_ddd/ / @tfr

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Torben Froelund13:06:14

Thanks @matthew, just bought your book on my Kindle, looking forward to reading about your findings ๐Ÿ™‚

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Cindy Vineberg12:06:37

Are your stream aligned teams that are autonomous still adhering to size of 5-8 people?

Cindy Vineberg12:06:37

Are your stream aligned teams that are autonomous still adhering to size of 5-8 people?

Richard Allen12:06:05

Yes the teams tend to be around that size

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Simon Williams12:06:04

That's a great quote:

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Simon Williams12:06:04

That's a great quote:

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:48

That's why we included it ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Simon Williams12:06:35

Too many good quotes in this preso... this is golden as well

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies13:06:36

QDPD quote-driven presentation development ๐Ÿ˜‚

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Renรฉ Lippert12:06:47

For bigger organizations. Do you also suggest to have a team who is understanding and helping the different teams to make changes and adopt the organization (finding the right team type, measure the overall communication needs)? Something like an impediment removal team.

Renรฉ Lippert12:06:47

For bigger organizations. Do you also suggest to have a team who is understanding and helping the different teams to make changes and adopt the organization (finding the right team type, measure the overall communication needs)? Something like an impediment removal team.

Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:42

Yep, absolutely. The Enabling team type is there to do exactly that.

T. Alexander Lystad12:06:46

In Visma we have a team of 10 people who spend all of our time on helping teams adopt and improve practicing modern engineering practices (Continuous Delivery, DevOps, Public Cloud)

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Jeremy McGee12:06:09

Nationwide does this too - we have a Ways of Working team

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:17

Definitely. We expect that as teams become more independent, the traditional middle management will take a boundary-spanning role, helping teams understand expectations and improve interactions with other teams.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:42

@jonathansmart1 had a similar role at Barclays, if I'm not mistaken

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Akis Sklavounakis12:06:58

This is the job of leadership surely?! An agile coaching practice can help them (enterprise coaching, team-level coaching), but not a CoE type of structure.

Renรฉ Lippert12:06:03

The enabling team in your book is more a temporary team. Or did I got this wrong?

Akis Sklavounakis12:06:29

Agile is not an expertise...

Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:58

@akis.sklavounakis - that's a good point. We actually recommend that some managers change their focus and - instead of managing people's time and tasks - they focus on setting up the right conditions for other teams to learn and share practices effectively

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:18

The Enabling team has a temporary relationship with another team, that's certain. An Enabling team may be short-lived or may be long-lived. They thing is to avoid creating a dependency on the Enabling team

Akis Sklavounakis12:06:18

@matthew So not checking up on people working remotely I take it ๐Ÿ˜„

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:03

Sure hope not @akis.sklavounakis! It's not about how an individual team works, we expect them to have sufficient autonomy + accountability.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:39

It's about helping different teams better understand how to interact, when and for what purpose.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:00

@rene.lippert we're discovering interesting variations on Enabling teams.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:04

One key aspect is the domain of expertise of this team, e.g. Continuous Delivery is a wide domain, expect an enabling team to be long lived inthat case.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:31

Vs something like test automation for mobile, which might be shorter-lived

Renรฉ Lippert12:06:33

@me1208 I am still unsure if I should for example put all my disciplinary mangers into an enableing team.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:54

I can't answer that without more context ๐Ÿ™‚

Renรฉ Lippert12:06:14

We understand them as coaches but they also make all the decissions where money is involved eg. training or hiring or ... what you have in the old company org style thing with team leader, bussines unit leader, ...

Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)13:06:25

That sort of responsibility is quite far removed from the behavior and intent of Enabling teams, @rene.lippert I would be very careful about mixing budget responsibility and decision making from Enabling activities โšก โš ๏ธ

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies13:06:24

That said, we typically see the need to change those aspects as well, from an individual-focus to a team-focus (training is an obvious example, but even hiring needs to start with team and individual purpose alignment - see this article: https://techbeacon.com/devops/why-you-should-hire-devops-enablers-not-experts)

Renรฉ Lippert13:06:19

Thanks! Very interesting article. I think I still have to break it further down. Stay in touch.

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Vlad Ukis12:06:19

Does the SRE team implement the SRE infrastructure?

Vlad Ukis12:06:19

Does the SRE team implement the SRE infrastructure?

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:09

No, they work with the stream-aligned teams to help them reduce toil as they are responsible for runtime of their service.

Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:29

There is no such thing as "SRE infrastructure" really ๐Ÿ™‚ There is infrastructure that the SRE team may help to define and diagnose, but that infrastructure is ultimately owned by the Stream-aligned teams

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:41

But they also act as a "sensor" to common problems across stream teams that the infra platform could possibly help with.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:57

They are like a "bridge" between stream-aligned teams and platform teams in this case.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:32

But their role is enabling, teaching what SRE means and how to handle service reliability, performance, etc more effectively by the stream teams.

Vlad Ukis12:06:37

Understood. Is then the infrastructure for e.g. detecting SLO breaches used on a fully SaaS basis by all the teams?

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:25

The cloud platform team provides a service that, based on a couple configuration files provided by the stream team with SLI/SLOs, creates SLO dashboards per service

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:44

It's also integrated with their chat tool, so the stream team gets notified when certain thresholds are crossed.

Vlad Ukis12:06:05

I see. Thanks for the clarification. I thought that someone in the org has to own this ๐Ÿ™‚

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:57

It's one of those cross-team concerns that any individual team will find hard to justify to invest on by themselves.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:13

SRE team helps surface the need, then platform team developed the needed service.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:53

Platform includes other such services like dynamic databse credentials, and other security related srevices

Vlad Ukis12:06:34

Right. Like e.g. Secret Rotation Service?

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:48

Could be, Vlad - there would be very little value in most Stream-aligned teams from managing their own secrets rotation ๐Ÿ”‘

T. Alexander Lystad12:06:53

Alex from the Visma case study here. Is Visma an outlier? We focus a lot on the fact that our stream-aligned teams must have full and exclusive ownership for their own services, which includes both their codebase and whatever cloud infrastructure they use (AWS, Azure or GCP). This does increase cognitive load, but we put this in the germane category. I am super skeptical to these centralized teams developing and maintaining a platform for a large number of "development teams". Am I the crazy one?

T. Alexander Lystad12:06:53

Alex from the Visma case study here. Is Visma an outlier? We focus a lot on the fact that our stream-aligned teams must have full and exclusive ownership for their own services, which includes both their codebase and whatever cloud infrastructure they use (AWS, Azure or GCP). This does increase cognitive load, but we put this in the germane category. I am super skeptical to these centralized teams developing and maintaining a platform for a large number of "development teams". Am I the crazy one?

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:10

If you can outsource your platform to cloud providers thatโ€™s awesome

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:40

So we have to add a thin layer of platform - what Team Topologies call a Minimum Viable Platform - on top of our cloud provider

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:08

But if you can get away with having someone else do your platforms for you then ๐Ÿฅ‚

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Markus Lauttia12:06:19

we're kind of trying the same, building our services on top of Azure PaaS as much as possible. Allowing the teams to use almost whatever services they need from Azure

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Paul Ingles12:06:30

๐Ÿ™‚ Hi! (from the Uswitch one)โ€ฆ we did it because we can have a small number of people doing high leverage work. Some of that is work that will ultimately go the way of our cloud provider (AWS) which is awesome, but most of their value-add is higher-level/value than what weโ€™d expect AWS to add to a roadmap

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:05

This is really important thinking and practice

Paul Ingles12:06:07

https://medium.com/@pingles/convergence-to-kubernetes-137ffa7ea2bc had some more detail on rationale/impact of that work

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Paul Ingles12:06:11

And I should say stream-aligned teams are still responsible for lots (creating DBs etc.), but they can do so with higher-level automation/abstractions than they would otherwise

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Markus Lauttia12:06:19

but that also comes with a cost - there's quite much cognitive load for the teams to sort out all kinds of Opsy things like backups, monitoring etc. Now that teams use a lot of various Azure services, its very difficult if not possible to have a platform team that would take over responsibilities from the teams

T. Alexander Lystad12:06:19

It seems to me that sometimes you want to use development competence when performing operations, and operational competence when performing development. Hence responsibility for both in one team. A centralized platform team can not have great knowledge on the 50+ applications (and the customers, domains, etc) running on their platform. We do have teams of advisors that can help our stream aligned teams follow good cloud architecture practices, this helps take off some of the load, but far from all of it of course.

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Matthew Skelton (co-author of Team Topologies)12:06:16

There should be an ongoing assessment of the cognitive load on Stream aligned teams. As technology from cloud providers improves and increases, organizations should be looking to adopt the new services into their internal platforms and throw away / shrink their previously in-house versions.

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Vlad Ukis12:06:40

How many of those advisor teams do you have? And how big each of them is? @alexander.lystad.

Jeremy McGee12:06:44

At NBS, in Digital, we built a platform to cut the cognitive load on the team -- so the stream aligned teams can ruthlessly copy what works from their peers. But the teams can also innovate should they choose. The great thing about using the 'approved' platform is that it's been blessed by the Security groups so you're in safe territory if you use it....

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T. Alexander Lystad12:06:52

@vladyslav.ukis a dozen advisors that covers continuous delivery, devops, public cloud, architecture, application security for 60+ teams (and growing)

T. Alexander Lystad12:06:37

our stream aligned teams vary from 2 to 50 unfortunately, but the average and median is around 8-9

T. Alexander Lystad12:06:57

"blessed by security" sounds dangerous. how do you make sure it doesn't become a crutch?

Jeremy McGee13:06:49

It's a simplification: we know that using the central platform short-cuts some security approvals elsewhere. (We're heavily regulated.) If a team knows they need something else that's genuinely unique then they can do that but there's then the additional overhead of involving the security folks.

Jeremy McGee13:06:05

"Invite, not enforce" is a strong part of the culture

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Karl Marfitt12:06:21

Very interesting case studies, thanks for sharing. At uSwitch were the new platforms themselves still mostly hosted on AWS (as managed XaaS) or did they become 'hybrid multi-cloud' platforms partly supported in-house? Also did the solution still have its own platform-level APIs but just at a higher level than what was previously called on AWS treating lower level infra/services more as 'black box'? I wonder if as we move more to machine learning models if it may be possible to consider complex underlying platform topologies and their individual components themselves as autonomous teams and learning team members? i.e. with different primary/tertiary cluster nodes learning and telling/asking each other about platform layer service transactions.

Karl Marfitt12:06:21

Very interesting case studies, thanks for sharing. At uSwitch were the new platforms themselves still mostly hosted on AWS (as managed XaaS) or did they become 'hybrid multi-cloud' platforms partly supported in-house? Also did the solution still have its own platform-level APIs but just at a higher level than what was previously called on AWS treating lower level infra/services more as 'black box'? I wonder if as we move more to machine learning models if it may be possible to consider complex underlying platform topologies and their individual components themselves as autonomous teams and learning team members? i.e. with different primary/tertiary cluster nodes learning and telling/asking each other about platform layer service transactions.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:19

All the infra at uswitch is on AWS, including everything in the platform.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:58

Therefore they were able to use traffic direct from customer services to AWS vs traffic to AWS via platform services as an indictor of platform adoption.

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:41

Platform is using Kubernetes on AWS and thus providing higher level abstractions to the stream teams (Deployments, Services, etc)

Karl Marfitt12:06:56

Gotcha, cut out the middle-man so to speak, a better product consumption model, or maybe 'repurpose/refocus the middle-man' to provide better services, faster ๐Ÿ™‚

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:25

Def! They realized how stream teams had "too much" autonomy meaning spending a lot of time on low level AWS services management themselves.

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:26

Platforms are actually fractal, you would expect to have multiple stream-aligned teams inside the platform as it grows (e.g. "monitoring" stream-aligned team, "provisioning" strean-aligned team, etc)

Karl Marfitt12:06:34

Many thanks for your replies, and great talk, nice job!

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies12:06:10

We also start to see "higher level" platform services like data APIs that themselves use "lower level" platforms services like provisioning and monitoring.

Rui Melo12:06:50

Parabรฉns @me1208 and congrats @matthew for an excellent session. Team topologies is usually not an upfront target topic, but definitely an paramount one. Thanks for sharing. ๐Ÿ‘

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:59

Super interesting to have real case studies. Thanks so much @matthew @me1208 ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

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Rui Pedro Saraiva12:06:05

congrats @me1208 and @matthew for the talk.

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Philip Day12:06:08

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Renรฉ Lippert12:06:17

Thanks!๐Ÿ‘

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Joachim12:06:21

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Matthew Joyner12:06:21

๐Ÿ‘ Thanks!

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Jason Milley12:06:34

Great preso @matthew @me1208 - picked up some important learnings - especially from the slack Q&A.

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Jason Milley12:06:34

Great preso @matthew @me1208 - picked up some important learnings - especially from the slack Q&A.

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Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies13:06:19

It's a great format, thanks to @genek101 and the entire IT Rev staff!

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Markus Lauttia12:06:38

Thanks for the github link!

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Pedro Alexandre12:06:53

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Joachim12:06:06

War and Peace in IT ... loved it.

Davy Kenis12:06:22

really opened my eyes so looking forward to this talk!

Chris12:06:15

Enjoyed the 3 books and more particularly war and peace in it.

Ulf12:06:56

good to see you here again @mark.schwartz @schmark always enjoy your talks

Ulf12:06:56

good to see you here again @mark.schwartz @schmark always enjoy your talks

Areti Panou13:06:20

Is the new presentation started?

Philip Day13:06:48

Try refreshing the tab

Manuel Pais, speaker, co-author Team Topologies13:06:51

Thank you everyone that attended our Team Topologies talk! Excellent questions here. <mic drop>

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Akis Sklavounakis13:06:40

@schmark When is the book out?

jeff.gallimore (CTIO - Excella, he/him)13:06:25

@schmark โ€œDevOps is a bureaucratic-oriented modelโ€ ๐Ÿคฏ i love the point ๐Ÿ™‚

Johan Tegler13:06:35

@schmark thanks for your presentation and your books! From your point of view, can you describe how your books realate to a) each other and b) to the other IT Rev books? Relate like knowledge areas, from beginner to expert level etc

Johan Tegler13:06:35

@schmark thanks for your presentation and your books! From your point of view, can you describe how your books realate to a) each other and b) to the other IT Rev books? Relate like knowledge areas, from beginner to expert level etc

Mark Schwartz21:06:48

The Art of Business Value was the first - what does "business value" really mean? One of the chapters was about the CIO's role so I decided to write anotherr book on that. A Seat at the Table is my book for CIOs and IT leaders. I wrote War and Peace and IT to tell a similar story to non-IT executives. The (Delicate) Art of Bureaucracy drills further into bureaucracy, a topic which came up in all of my previous books.

Areti Panou13:06:21

Open and transparent channels for improvements is key! Excellent!

Joachim13:06:25

Enabling bureaucracy ... great way of putting this.

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Jiล™รญ Klouda13:06:42

There is a little difference in running processes on people or programs on computers. The better known things are, the more they get automated and the harder they are to change.

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)13:06:16

This reminds me of a comment I heard from an auditor once, in immature companies the processes are abandoned during crises. Mature companies fall back on their processes to protect and aid them during a crisis

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Areti Panou13:06:03

"Minimum viable bureaucracy"

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Matthew Joyner13:06:04

Minimum viable bureaucracy - this is something I can get behind!

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx13:06:55

Itโ€™s an awesome idea. We use exactly that term for our portfolio-down-to-team level alignment in Azure DevOps.

Akis Sklavounakis13:06:17

Just look out for RPA automating obsolete bureaucracy, or automation in general, avoiding leaning the processes

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Akis Sklavounakis13:06:17

Just look out for RPA automating obsolete bureaucracy, or automation in general, avoiding leaning the processes

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Andy Sturrock14:06:00

Yes agree. One of the big problems of RPA (beyond the integration at the UI layer anti-pattern, brittleness etc etc) is that it appears to destroy the business case for fixing the actual problem - ie removing the process altogether/leaning it out/redesigning from scratch/proper systems integration/etc.

Andy Sturrock14:06:06

I say "appears" above because I see the value from sorting out the problem properly is usually under-estimated as is the cost of maintenance of the RPA solution.

Akis Sklavounakis13:06:10

Step one in RPA: Value stream mapping!

Jiล™รญ Klouda13:06:41

If you look at most CI/CD pipelines they tend to grow to be bloated, rigid and hard to change, unless you continuously refactor them.

Jiล™รญ Klouda13:06:41

If you look at most CI/CD pipelines they tend to grow to be bloated, rigid and hard to change, unless you continuously refactor them.

Giulio Vian13:06:19

they are just code like all code, they require love and care

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Michael Kalbermatter13:06:16

Inspirational talk! Thx a lot! ๐Ÿ˜Š

Tom Ayerst13:06:23

continuous modernization again ๐Ÿ™‚

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)13:06:37

Interesting stuff, Thank You

Matthew Joyner13:06:39

Thanks @schmark! ๐Ÿ‘

Areti Panou13:06:00

Nice presentation and looking forward to the book @schmark

Chris13:06:36

Great talk @schmark . Waiting for the book!

Bertalan Voros13:06:15

Thank you @schmark

Ciaran Byrne13:06:24

Thanks, @schmark - an insightful talk that has made me think more positively about working with bureaucracy and how we can make it work for us .

Mark Schwartz21:06:03

@akis.sklavounakis October over 14

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