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2020-06-23
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Guillermo Martinez09:06:27

Looking forward to the Track sessions coming

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)10:06:24

Welcome speaker @guillermo.a.martinez for Q&A after the break!

Guillermo Martinez10:06:45

I’m here ready to answer questions (or trying to). Also with @bas.du.pre

Peter Fassbinder10:06:38

Great slide on the holisitc view on DevOps

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Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:38

@bas.du.pre - What are some examples of the customer/business apps or initiatives that were part of the DevOps transformation?

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:38

@bas.du.pre - What are some examples of the customer/business apps or initiatives that were part of the DevOps transformation?

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:55

Oh - I think you are answering that now!

Bas du Pré10:06:23

basically the 'Shell' app that is in the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store. It's main functions are information about gas station (location, services), paying with the app for gas or services, and insights in your own driving behaviours or carbon footprint/impact

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:59

> insights in your own driving behaviours or carbon footprint/impact Cool!

Peter Fassbinder10:06:20

insights in your own driving behaviours or carbon footprint/impact -> how is this connected to the app?

Matt McKee10:06:49

How does the DevOps plan (asses > plan) work in conjunction with customer centric product thinking eg not inflicting outcomes and capabilities that the product teams don’t want.

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Matt McKee10:06:49

How does the DevOps plan (asses > plan) work in conjunction with customer centric product thinking eg not inflicting outcomes and capabilities that the product teams don’t want.

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Guillermo Martinez10:06:42

basically we started working hand by hand with the teams - doing engineering activities too. We brainstormed together and informed them about practices or changes we could do to make their life easier. Then based on that we started the improvement

Guillermo Martinez10:06:19

always giving what the teams and different department needed, not just our happy (and most of the time crazy) ideas

Matt McKee10:06:46

So were you embedded in those product teams rather than a central transformation team?

Bas du Pré10:06:05

most important here (in my opinion 😉) was that we stressed that we were there to help them, instead of telling them how things are going to be changed. That also helped focussing on things that were really important for the teams and helped finding the low-hanging fruit that wasn't immediately obvious without these first steps.

Guillermo Martinez10:06:05

we’re a central transformation team that is actually embedded in the teams. If we’re too much high level, we won’t never know what they really need and how they are really delivering.

Guillermo Martinez10:06:31

so we have to stay connected with the most juniors developers as well as with the CTO

Matt McKee10:06:09

Cool, so we are then talking about some common and collaborative goals set with them. Plus the necessary link back into CTO for common patterns, reuse, learning etc

Bas du Pré10:06:23

Indeed, we are (sort of) part of the team. Especially from a technical point of view. So we showed them initially how they could do things and build stuff like pipelines for them. Then we slowly try to get the teams to pick things up themselves. Besides the engineering part, coaching them was also a big and important aspect.

Matt McKee10:06:58

Thank you. Do you have both Transformation and delivery skills within your team that longer then looks to the product team to build their capabilities

Guillermo Martinez10:06:43

yep, we ourselves do engineering activities but also politics. Sometimes is too much, but it feels it works fine

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:18

@bas.du.pre How do you measure “stories”? Is that issues in your issue tracker, PRs or some other metric?

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:18

@bas.du.pre How do you measure “stories”? Is that issues in your issue tracker, PRs or some other metric?

Bas du Pré10:06:52

Depends on what you mean with measure. If you mean the impact/value it has on the business, then there is only one real way: releasing the 'story' ASAP to the customers. That way, you can validate your assumptions.

Bas du Pré10:06:03

That is really helpful, because it helps focus your efforts on what matters. Nothing is more wasteful than building features based on assumptions about how you think your users are going to be using them, when it turned out that those assumptions were wrong. If you released those initial assumpted features more quickly, you could have measured that it was not worth it to continue down that path.

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:04

In one of the slides you talked about your before and afer metrics - including number of stories per sprint. I’m wondering what is counted as a single story.

Bas du Pré10:06:32

ah okay, let me explain those numbers a little bit

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:17

I’ll share that at GitLab we measure our development “efficiency” based on MR (our version of PR) per engineer, not issues because they can be varied scope.

Bas du Pré10:06:16

the "stories per sprint" measurement was based on a team per team basis, based on their velocity and the average story size. This is really delicate, because understanding those numbers is not straight-forward (especially project management could see those numbers as individual productivity, which is not really fair)

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:03

:thumbsup: - Yeah agreed to not consider it individual productivity. Makes sense. Thanks!

Bas du Pré10:06:07

then based on the amount of 'overhead' we have found in the plan and assessment stages we can calculate the possible (but realistic) increase in amount of stories

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:04

One thing we found when focusing on PRs is that it gives the incentive to break work down into smaller and smaller code contributions which have a higher likelihood of shipping and not getting stuck in long review cycles.

Bas du Pré10:06:51

I agree that is is not maybe the best way to measure things like that, but I really want to 'measure' things like this in a transformation, because if you measure, you can validate and keep your KPI's in track. Otherwise it will be a lot of guessing.

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Bas du Pré10:06:36

@kenny I like that idea. Smaller iterations are easier to ship and even the smallest change brings value to the end customer. And I am kind of overusing the word 'measure' here, but after you release it, you can measure it for real and the base your decisions on that. Especially Product Owners like that (sometimes you need to convince them in the beginning, but once they see the upside to releasing in smaller chunks, they are sold).

Bas du Pré10:06:26

Plus, releasing smaller and smaller changes will eventually become 'continuous' releasing, which is like the ultimate goal of DevOps

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:30

Agreed - I’m a product owner by trade and you want to ship perfection but after some time operating in a high iteration environment you love the constant learning.

Giulio Vian10:06:13

> Technical debt time How measured? The SonarQube way?

Giulio Vian10:06:13

> Technical debt time How measured? The SonarQube way?

Guillermo Martinez10:06:30

yes, we used Sonar for that. It’s of course a not fully accurate metric, but at least it gives the team the perception of code quality

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Peter Fassbinder10:06:27

Can you give us some figures on your deployment frequency (cloud / app)?

Peter Fassbinder10:06:27

Can you give us some figures on your deployment frequency (cloud / app)?

Guillermo Martinez10:06:22

initially (2 years ago) we were releasing every 3 months although quite random way to measure 3 months. With Improvements we placed fixed releases every 3 months. Then 2 months, Then 1 month. Now 2 weeks (sprint length). And currently our systems allow each of the teams to release their components (Android, iOS, NodeJs…) every day if they want. But still we require more fear-removal to do that.

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Matt McKee10:06:21

I didn’t see any culture/happiness outcomes in the DevOps definition (CI/CD & DevOps context) did you work on this culture, mindset outcomes in your team or was that done elsewhere?

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Matt McKee10:06:21

I didn’t see any culture/happiness outcomes in the DevOps definition (CI/CD & DevOps context) did you work on this culture, mindset outcomes in your team or was that done elsewhere?

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Guillermo Martinez10:06:29

yes, we work on that. Everything to satisfy our guys, make them happier, and their life easier. None of the changes we did would work without a mindset change. It’s a lot of new ways to do things, sometimes hard to adopt. Mindset change is crucial

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Matt McKee10:06:36

I agree, so this was an assumed outcome/by-product of the way of working and flow of work?

Guillermo Martinez10:06:44

we measure as well “happy points” and conduct team and personal level surveys. Just think about all the improvement actions coming from the retrospective, if you can solve them, the team becomes happier. E.g. debugging is a pain, no one knows which version is where, deployments have to be done manually with a virtual call…..

Guillermo Martinez10:06:12

removing all these things (that requires a HUGE mindset change) makes people happier

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech10:06:24

do you guys measure the psychological safety of the teams @guillermo.a.martinez

Bas du Pré10:06:52

Yes. Because otherwise, changing their way of working wouldn't work properly. They need to want to change themselves! So happiness is really important, but I would say motivation is even more important (which will eventually lead to happier team members of course)

Guillermo Martinez11:06:46

indeed, we’re the DevOps Enablement. We enable DevOps, we have to make the teams become DevOps. They need to want it. Otherwise we achieve nothing

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Bas du Pré11:06:35

@me1342 I really like the idea of that. It is not currently included in how we have approached this transformation. Now that we are all working from home due to the Covid pandemic, there is a big corporate push from both Accenture and Shell on there psychological well-being, which is kind of nice, but it's not embedded in our process. We are now talking about SRE's, and have been talking about the psychological aspect of that by the way. But I really feel that it makes a lot of sense to more explicitly cover the psychological safety in transformations like these.

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Guillermo Martinez11:06:11

It’ll be cool to find a right way to measure and help on it

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech11:06:35

Would love to have a chat- we live and breathe Psychological Safety as the only sustainable lever of high performance. We make a team solution to measure it yes but more importantly to make more of it increasing the team’s EQ and their People Practice - happy to have buy you a virtual cuppa and show you a demo of what we made if you liked

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Bas du Pré11:06:27

Hey @guillermo.a.martinez, do we have time somewhere this week? I'm really interested in the demo @me1342 is talking about!

Guillermo Martinez11:06:57

could it be next week? 😅

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech11:06:01

nah too late, we’ll have been out of all Psychological Safety software by then 😉 will ping you both so we sort it for then - anyone who knows it’s priority is awesome in my book so looking forward to it

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Matt McKee12:06:16

I’d be really interested in this as well if it’s an open invite?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:06:58

Nope, only them:) totally- let me ping you. In fact we still have our Covid-19 response out so it’s free and we’ve been onboarding loads of cool teams but few as DevOpsy woke who actually know the value of Psychological Safety from the unicorn’s mouth 🙂 as everyone here so needless to say l’d love to talk to everybody and get you on even if it were for now while we’re giving it away! The offer should be on the website at http://www.psychologicalsafety.works

Don Ham10:06:05

I want to know how you did in order to communicate... +4 countries/+100 people every week

Don Ham10:06:05

I want to know how you did in order to communicate... +4 countries/+100 people every week

Guillermo Martinez10:06:24

baby steps, one week we work in a component or a couple, next week in another one, and so on…

Don Ham10:06:14

Got it Thanks!

Guillermo Martinez10:06:44

here some delivery KPIs (average for the different components) measured one year after the transformation started

Guillermo Martinez10:06:44

here some delivery KPIs (average for the different components) measured one year after the transformation started

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:30

How did you realize the amazing decrease in unit test execution time?

Guillermo Martinez10:06:00

Gradle, XCTest, npm execution improvement mainly -> parallelization, poper machines, caching…

Kenny Johnston - Gitlab10:06:37

Wow - just think about all that developer time saved. Awesome work!

Bas du Pré10:06:13

I know what you feel 😉

Anand10:06:53

As an EA, I'm living this!

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Richard Vodden10:06:24

I LOVE the title 🙂

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Alex Heyes10:06:51

"EA protects the org from itself" is something I heard recently

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Alex Heyes10:06:51

"EA protects the org from itself" is something I heard recently

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:59

Yes, and sometimes the organisation needs to learn by itself and be unwrapped from the bubble wrap

Alex Heyes11:06:32

yep - EA should be the ones keeping lookout, acting as air traffic control, not telling people how to build

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Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:22

I don't have a software development background, but as an editor of dev content, it always amazes me how eager participants of every part of the process are for continuous iterations

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:53

The buzzwords can get a little funny, but there are real needs there

Mark Goble11:06:58

“continuous conversation” - absolutely :)

Tom Sheeran11:06:04

An "Architecture Tribe"

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Tom Sheeran11:06:04

An "Architecture Tribe"

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target11:06:38

as an ex architect and current product manager, i loath Architecture boards. Continuous conversations with me, the developers i work with, and constructive debate has worked much better

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target11:06:38

as an ex architect and current product manager, i loath Architecture boards. Continuous conversations with me, the developers i work with, and constructive debate has worked much better

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Anand11:06:49

In a regulated industry such as banking. There has to be some level of governance. Whats needed is functional boards, not ivory tower boards

gerald11:06:14

i can relate. same boat as you right now.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:26

Yes, and as I say - there’s not a 1-off sign-off if you’re doing agile / DevOps / CD

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:38

So governance needs to be much more sophisticated and continuous

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:05

(That section is from what we did group-wide at Barclays for continuous governance)

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target11:06:44

yes… i think the key to that is driving joint accountability… we are successful as a product unless we meet the criteria that has been agreed upon. if it feels like a “burden” and not “what we do”, then things need to change

Anand11:06:23

Easier said than done imho :)

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target11:06:58

for sure! agreed @anand.patil

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:06

It was very painful at Barclays with a huge culture of adversarial relationships between the architects and the development teams

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:30

We basically took the formal SDLC process and hacked it to bits to force continuous conversations

Anand11:06:20

The new breed of Engineers hate the word 'architecture'

Anand11:06:04

They don't have time to read a 30 page strategy document

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:24

See later - but most standards/outcomes should be as automated as they can be

gerald11:06:46

@anand.patil - what i did before is to simplify things. just boil things down to Strategic Intent, Tactical Objective, Constraints (time, budget, tech, etc), Restraints, and Resources. Then have them come up with a solution on their own. that allowed me to have independent teams move on their own. the conversational part was the one i was missing.

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Mark Goble11:06:07

@lucas.rettig completely agree - the value is in bringing people together and helping others see the problem from other viewpoints

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:04

Is it terribly difficult to for architects to break into existing development processes to get these continuous conversations going?

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:04

Is it terribly difficult to for architects to break into existing development processes to get these continuous conversations going?

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:38

I see. Did you find that there was some existing mistrust that you had to rebuilt to get your footing?

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:23

Enterprise architects are, as I quoted Mark Schwartz as saying, seen as bureaucrats

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:48

You have to be seen as generating positive value for the organisation

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Mark Goble11:06:03

Also depends on whether they see any value in the interruption by the architect. What’s in it for them to interact - in the old world it was ‘you have to talk to me because I’m governance’ - in the new world you need to offer them ways to improve what they do

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Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:36

Ah fair enough. I saw the "ivory tower" comment in the other thread, and that gave me an idea about possible sentiments

Mark Goble11:06:34

It can be but also that can be a convenient defence.. I’ve worked with architects who are more in love with the process and metamodel than the impact it has on the ability to deliver

Mark Goble11:06:39

Also architects need to show respect to the developers and experts knowledge and experience

Matthew Joyner11:06:45

It goes both ways, coming from our architecture group, I get a lot of resistance when working with the dev team because they assume I am just there to meddle or tell them how to do things because of past architects. Been working on fixing our brand over the last year

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Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:00

And that would be the point of convergence where governance becomes more of a perceived strain than an added value

Jiří Klouda11:06:45

I find that it’s best if you come bearing gifts. Like we had a team that could not get a message bus as part of the platform and they implemented some crude message passing in shared relational database and the feature kept causing problems both to ops and devs. Solve the problem for them, get them the correct technology to implement the feature, pass it through the hurdles and you make the listening easier.

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Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:49

That's what I was getting at/wondering too @joyner.matthew.

Mark Goble11:06:49

yep - often the ‘why’ of governance falls back to ‘just because’ or ‘legal or industry compliance’ as these are easy defences

Mark Goble11:06:22

you need to explain why it benefits them

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:53

"Come bearing gifts" I really like that

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:02

Seems like both sides have to kinda level their walls to get to the continuous conversation goal. Really drill down into the need and benefit of governance with respect on and for both sides

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Mark Goble11:06:44

Yep. I use a ‘placemat’ (a diagram with boxes round it for questions, requirements, goals etc) as the basis of the conversations as it acts as a grounding point. Along with the questions - is this right? / what am I missing?

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Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:02

Am I right in thinking that those questions have an implied "people element" to them?

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:57

In other words, not just "Is this technically right?" but "Am I doing right by my stakeholders?" @m.goble

Mark Goble11:06:59

kinda - the first (is this right) is more to start a discussion around the diagram and notes on what we’re trying to achieve - it’s not unusual to find people think things are being done for multiple reasons) also personally I always work from the assumption that I could of gotten things wrong so always best to check. In terms of the what am I missing - am i missing key requirements, context, components but also people - i.e. who else should I speak to about this?

Mark Goble11:06:06

I once did an internal study in our company where I asked if people knew the company strategy - the vast majority said yes - however when I asked them to give me details of the strategy most were wrong - alignment is key as things move and context change. Why it’s important to do something is key

Andre Lee-Moye, DZone11:06:44

Ah ok. I think I misunderstood the process; thanks for clarifying. I'm really interested in trying this on my own team; looks like a really good tool to drill down and cover all bases around conversations like this

Anand11:06:27

"Standards are overrated" hahaha

Michael Wildman11:06:54

How do you manage complexity while applying the strangler pattern? Adding a microservice on top of the legacy system seems to add yet another layer to the system. It might be managed by 1 team, but they are now managing the whole stack, top to bottom, including this new microservice which might use a new domain language. And strangling out the old system might take months or years.

Michael Wildman11:06:54

How do you manage complexity while applying the strangler pattern? Adding a microservice on top of the legacy system seems to add yet another layer to the system. It might be managed by 1 team, but they are now managing the whole stack, top to bottom, including this new microservice which might use a new domain language. And strangling out the old system might take months or years.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:38

This is a long answer! Will get back to you in a few mins :)

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:52

Effectively you are going to need a new team for the new Microservice. It’s both adding a layer to the old system but also reducing its complexity.

Michael Wildman11:06:02

It's on my list 🙂

Richard Vodden11:06:29

ooo - healthcare - that’s a really nice analogy

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Richard Vodden11:06:43

(let’s make EA a bit less regulated though eh? 😉 )

Anand11:06:04

Nicely concluded. Thanks @rohrersm

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target11:06:44

love those outcomes @rohrersm from Accelerate. When the Architects are having continuous conversation with the Development and product teams, a lot of trust is built. In my experience, the Architect becomes my Yoda in predicting the future trends of these outcomes! Nice talk!

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Jiří Klouda11:06:02

Anyone got a copy of the last slide with the summary (From/To) ?

Jiří Klouda11:06:02

Anyone got a copy of the last slide with the summary (From/To) ?

Jiří Klouda11:06:12

Oh! Treasure trove!

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Fokko Veegens11:06:20

I like the idea of having an architecture community @rohrersm, how did you approach this?

Fokko Veegens11:06:20

I like the idea of having an architecture community @rohrersm, how did you approach this?

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:40

It’s written up in Sooner Safer Happier - but we created Control Tribes and included EA there, per effective value stream

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:20

In Saxo we inherited one - luckily it was already the way of working when I got here

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx11:06:30

It will depend on your context. Where are you? what’s the current setup?

Fokko Veegens12:06:38

The customer I'm consulting still have architects that lead the way. Also they are in the process of setting up self-service private cloud infrastructure. I see a move in the right direction (private cloud already contains architecture principles), but we can make more steps and I think your idea of having an architecture community will certainly help. I can see that knowledge of devs will also help automate certain principles.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx14:06:36

Yes, cloud helps with automating principles, outcomes & standards definitely. Self-service within constraints is the ideal.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx14:06:03

For me, working with Continuous Delivery as a principle and working out practices backwards from that has been the key.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx14:06:44

“If we’re going to go from concept to cash - idea to production - within 1 hour, without asking permission - how can we do that?”

Fokko Veegens12:06:09

Great! Thanks for your thoughts!

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Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:55

@shaaron.alvares38 I would like to ask a question upfront, in relation to your talk as I have great interest in DevOps at Telecom. What, do you think, is the most difficult with DevOps transformation with Communication Service Providers? Is it more Management, Processes, or rather Technology, Architecture and Automation? Also, can the 5G era work without DevOps (within CSPs)?

Andy Sturrock12:06:53

@rohrersm great talk. I will point our architects at BP at it!

Andy Sturrock12:06:53

@rohrersm great talk. I will point our architects at BP at it!

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:18

Thank you so much, much appreciated! Happy to chat about more detail if you ever need.

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:04

@szilard.szell Great question, I'd say it's all of the above, and may the challenges often come from siloing the transformation. It's really important to have all the parties continuously communicate and realign as needed to work together. In TelCo, culture shifts are also an important hurdle that's not alway well addressed from my convo w my peers in other large TelCo.

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:04

@szilard.szell Great question, I'd say it's all of the above, and may the challenges often come from siloing the transformation. It's really important to have all the parties continuously communicate and realign as needed to work together. In TelCo, culture shifts are also an important hurdle that's not alway well addressed from my convo w my peers in other large TelCo.

Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:02

I have seen a few failed transformation in the past 😉

Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:01

But we see that targeting all pillars, Automation, Architecture, Processes and Business Agility, together is needed to achieve stable transformation. And it is a long journey, especially on the Networks area, where Vendor and CSP shall collaborate and explore together

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Sandeep Joshi12:06:16

The key aspect is alignment

Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:30

Alignment is key, but you also need to improve on multiple aspects. Culture of trust will not come without a safety net, that helps reducing the impact of any bad decision (so we can actually celebrate failure) Automation, and new technology is very much key as well (as always)

Sandeep Joshi12:06:12

I mean alignment at every level. Align on why and what at every level. As leaders, creating a psychologically safe environment should be one’s top priority if they want to drive innovation and Transformation. The other levers around technology, new ways of working etc. are critical as well..

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Szilard Szell (Eficode)13:06:30

Aligning and re-aligning that Why and what! Yes. That is a good base to start building on

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Tom Longstaff12:06:02

How do you think the recent executive order signed by P. Trump will impact diversity in Tech?

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:57

Tech companies are pushing back. At least until the end of the year, probably longer

Michael Winslow12:06:35

@shaaron.alvares38 I love that your talk title does not mention "Diversity" at all! Focusing on Inclusion.

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Arnab Nandi12:06:52

@shaaron.alvares38 , could you please throw some more light on the best practice where you say move away from values? Why is that?

Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:19

@shaaron.alvares38 What do you think about "energetic discussions", some time even loud arguing in a team who has worked together for a very long time? When being loud is always related to the topic, and not to the personality of the other. Is this OK to have? Or rather dangerous?

Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:19

@shaaron.alvares38 What do you think about "energetic discussions", some time even loud arguing in a team who has worked together for a very long time? When being loud is always related to the topic, and not to the personality of the other. Is this OK to have? Or rather dangerous?

Richard Herrett12:06:03

it could be very daunting for a new person to the team

Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:35

@richard.herrett yes, this is what I have seen as well. The newcomer was afraid to see this is the style. On the other hand the team itself is delivering excellent results, and trust each-other fully

Richard Herrett12:06:31

but a team changes over time - it happens, even with the same people (their private life changes, therefore they change) and what was OK may not be OK in time.

Richard Herrett12:06:53

I like to ask "If a stranger to the team observed the team, would they want to join in or not?" if not...

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Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:37

So behavior shall stay within good standards, in whatever circumstances, to keep the team running on long term!

Sandeep Joshi12:06:56

The team should decide their social contract - acceptable behaviours and actions in the team environment. There is no “one size fit all” - the culture plays a big part..

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Shaaron A Alvares12:06:00

@arnab.nandi For the sake of the exercise I described, it's really important to move away from vague behaviors. W vague behaviors, we can't practices everyday and hold each accountable. It's better to describe behaviors in actionable verbs.

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM12:06:20

It's culture add, not culture fit 👏

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:06:39

“Behaviours”, “actions” - l could hug you. Only way we’ll counteract empty rethorics

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:06:39

“Behaviours”, “actions” - l could hug you. Only way we’ll counteract empty rethorics

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM12:06:04

It seems very important to both call out performative messaging and allow the person/org to learn from their mistakes.

Michael Winslow12:06:59

YEEEESSSS! Inclusion talks by more diverse presenters!

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Michael Winslow12:06:59

YEEEESSSS! Inclusion talks by more diverse presenters!

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Shaaron A Alvares12:06:44

Agreed @michael_winslow I think we can influence that, and we're getting there

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty12:06:14

I have a question about the team hiring model (which I love by the way). Did you have any situations of a non-diverse team to start hiring? (And I mean this not just for a team of all Caucasian males - it could also be an all female team or all any single background). I find that those teams can be hard to diversify because whoever is added is instantly the outlier.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM12:06:15

Thank you @shaaron.alvares38

Pete Nuwayser - IBM12:06:15

Thank you @shaaron.alvares38

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:46

Thank you @pnuwayser glad you iked it

Arnab Nandi12:06:18

Brilliant talk, @shaaron.alvares38.Thank you

Arnab Nandi12:06:18

Brilliant talk, @shaaron.alvares38.Thank you

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:21

Thank you @arnab.nandi 🙂

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:57

Thank you @michael_winslow

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:05

Thank you @tom521

Tom Longstaff12:06:32

@Shaaron, yes I see Tech companies pushing back, but I'm worried about the culture impact of the EO on diverse teams that are being formed or currently in place. This hurts safety

Tom Longstaff12:06:32

@Shaaron, yes I see Tech companies pushing back, but I'm worried about the culture impact of the EO on diverse teams that are being formed or currently in place. This hurts safety

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:07

I agree @tal927. There are already pushbacks from large silicon tech giants so I hope it won't pass.

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:22

Thank you @laurafernandezvillar for attenting 🙂

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:38

@szilard.szell agreed disagreements are important too,

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Ciaran Byrne12:06:42

Thank you @shaaron.alvares38 👏👏

Ciaran Byrne12:06:42

Thank you @shaaron.alvares38 👏👏

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:46

Thank you @ciaran.byrne

Laura Fernandez Villar12:06:49

Could you share here the pointers to those talks at the end?

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Laura Fernandez Villar12:06:49

Could you share here the pointers to those talks at the end?

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Shaaron A Alvares12:06:37

@fokkov all the references are hyperlinked 🙂 so you will find them in the decks. BTW 🙂 note that Octavius Black And John Skeet are British 🙂

Tom Longstaff12:06:01

Excellent talk, thank you so much!!!!

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Szilard Szell (Eficode)12:06:42

Great talk @shaaron.alvares38! Thank you!

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Shaaron A Alvares12:06:17

@paula.thrasher the outlier is a great topic, also called "The Only One". But we need to start somewhere. agreed we need to pay more attention to these only ones. Taht's why I say to the managers: invest harder in peole who are different from you

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Shaaron A Alvares12:06:17

@paula.thrasher the outlier is a great topic, also called "The Only One". But we need to start somewhere. agreed we need to pay more attention to these only ones. Taht's why I say to the managers: invest harder in peole who are different from you

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty12:06:29

I also loved the team culture agreement - which I can see being a good aid to the "only one" culture. Being an only is easier in an environment that is conscious and supportive. So many good ideas shared in this talk!

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:05

@thank you @paula.thrasher I'd love to keep working with anyone interested in developing tactics 🙂

Szilard Szell (Eficode)13:06:13

Few years back, in a one nationality/one language team (within a Multi) we decided to hire some foreign speaking person to each team. This helped a lot to push for daily communication in English, and also improved team cohesion as people started to support the "foreigners " with personal manners as well. Relocation was supported by HR, and paid back in team spirit

Sarah Hager12:06:34

@shaaron.alvares38 Amazing talk! Are the slides available?

Sarah Hager12:06:34

@shaaron.alvares38 Amazing talk! Are the slides available?

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:42

Yes they should be shared already on GitHub, let me find out 🙂 @shager

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Bahram12:06:37

Nice Talk

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Bahram12:06:37

Nice Talk

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Shaaron A Alvares12:06:17

Thank you @bahram.bahrambeigy

Shaaron A Alvares12:06:54

I hope to see you all next year speaking on stage in London about your practices 🙂

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Martin Woodward12:06:41

Hey folks 👋 - will be keeping up on questions in here during the session from @divineops and I coming up. We’ll be talking about Microsoft DevOps Journey. Slides for the session are already up on the DevopsEnterprise GitHub https://github.com/devopsenterprise/2020-London-Virtual/blob/master/Day%201/Breakouts/Martin%20Woodward%20-%20DOES_Woodward_Rosenbaum_0623_1355_MicrosoftOpenSource.pptx?raw=true . We’ll be jumping over to the GitHub booth after this to answer any questions live if you want to join us after the session to chat in person. We’ll be on https://github.zoom.us/j/93929282358?pwd=Z3pkSHJPTHAvZSs1M2VvTVhPUlZOQT09 for the next hour and then #xpo-github for the rest of the week.

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Marcello Marrocos12:06:43

Its nice to see this change on Microsoft on last years.

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Martin Woodward12:06:35

‘Don’t be a Jerk’ is @divineops number 1 tip 😂

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René Lippert12:06:42

Yes we do!

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Marcello Marrocos12:06:53

Open source is everywhere now.

Martin Woodward13:06:00

Yeah - for stuff being deployed now we’re seeing 99% of new applications deployed using open source. That’s a massive change in the last 10 years

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Shaaron A Alvares13:06:25

Please connect with me on LI, and we can continue the great work together! Looking forward to connecting!

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Marcello Marrocos13:06:27

I remember when Microsoft announced support to Linux VM on Azure, it was a huge change!

René Lippert13:06:44

@martinwoodward how do you decided what goes open source and what needs to be protected as interlectual property? Are there some general rules?

Martin Woodward13:06:59

Basically Rene it goes to the business need like Sasha was saying. In Microsoft the folks that own the IP are the same groups that make the decisions to release as open source so it makes it easier to have 1 person make that decision

Martin Woodward13:06:10

We decided to base this on our blogging guidance. We encourage people to use their personal GitHub identities

Martin Woodward13:06:56

(You can have multiple email addresses associated with your GitHub ID so try to have the email address as http://microsoft.com when doing work stuff and person email address when not)

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Marcello Marrocos13:06:58

That's a very nice point, @martinwoodward. Open source doesn't mean open usage without respecting the licensing. And nowadays there are tools that we use on our pipeline that are able to validate the licenses of the open source packages we use on our projects.

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Andy Sturrock13:06:07

"Lawyers are like developers but code in English". Love that 😂

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Martin Woodward13:06:18

It’s funny because it’s true

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Mark Reynolds13:06:26

I wonder if any government will opensource covid tracing apps, seems like a no brainer to me.

Martin Woodward13:06:36

Most of them are open source

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Luke13:06:57

The cup idea is brilliant!

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René Lippert13:06:15

@martinwoodward how do you measure this impact?

René Lippert13:06:22

This was so nice! Thanks for sharing!

Martin Woodward13:06:28

Thanks for watching folks. I’m heading over to https://github.zoom.us/j/93929282358?pwd=Z3pkSHJPTHAvZSs1M2VvTVhPUlZOQT09 if folks want to chat live. I’ll be in #xpo-github rest of the week.

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Dan // Datadog13:06:35

👏 @divineops & @martinwoodward

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Andy Sturrock13:06:53

thanks, great talk 👏 @martinwoodward @devineops

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