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2020-06-23
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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)10:06:01

Welcome speakers @jtf and @ds after the break!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:51

Iโ€™ve seen lots of pictures of the front cover on twitter, not so many of the back cover for some reasonโ€ฆ ๐Ÿ™‚

Squirrel10:06:33

https://troubleshootingagile.com (in case you were looking for the podcast ๐Ÿ™‚ )

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:02

Q for the audience: Are you trying to make a transformation, but frustrated?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:02

Q for the audience: Are you trying to make a transformation, but frustrated?

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Hannah Beech10:06:24

Definitely... sort of. Started making transformation, results are looking good, but there's still a ways to go.

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target10:06:31

weโ€™ve done it in product/techโ€ฆ working on engraining it into how we plan and operate our businessโ€ฆ some great, some not so great

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:39

It's been a growth experience for my patience.

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target10:06:53

โ€ฆ what @bryan.finster said

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems10:06:13

Depends on the day ๐Ÿ™‚

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Jerimiah Owens10:06:09

@jtf Absolutely.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:40

If I want to be pathological, it may be that I'm already pathological.

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Jevon White10:06:47

I have been with my company for two years and I still donโ€™t understand what culture the company has - I think I know what they want to be, which is Generative.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx10:06:20

Partially bureaucratic, partially generative

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Jevon White10:06:22

But there is a lot of Bureaucracy and Pathological โ€œsiloesโ€

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:14

I think I know what they want to be, which is Generative. < lots of people want to get thereโ€ฆ but how?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech10:06:30

I like the โ€œput the book downโ€ forget the framework and stop doing things by numbers message

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target10:06:41

That hits home @jtfโ€ฆ โ€œceremonies only work if people are bought into themโ€โ€ฆ

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:42

If corporate culture is known for making decisions by consensus / not stepping on toes / distributed decision making.... which of the three cultures would that fall into? Bureaucratic?

Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:42

If corporate culture is known for making decisions by consensus / not stepping on toes / distributed decision making.... which of the three cultures would that fall into? Bureaucratic?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:58

I think youโ€™ll end up bureaucratic by default. The real trap youโ€™re in is โ€œgroupthinkโ€

Blake (Community at DZone; Gene Kim Fan Club Member 2,000,005)10:06:23

Corp culture as @jtf would say falls into the trap of superficial harmony. You have all these committees that in theory are set up so there is cognitive diversity. Instead it becomes a stalemate all to often or group decisions that water down decision so much that 80 meetings of one hour = a relatively tame decision being made that results in a one paragraph press release on upcoming action that will be taken. So it often runs into slow decision making, group decision making, lots of people afraid to venture off group think, and endless hours wasted barely moving forward.

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Blake (Community at DZone; Gene Kim Fan Club Member 2,000,005)10:06:38

Even worse when it falls into committees of committees with accompanying smaller councils. A larger committee meets, then one person from that committee goes to another smaller/larger committee to represent the other one. Gets a decision made, only to have a separate council that they or someone else on ultimately make the call or decision. And people wonder why at so many larger companies it takes longer to react, lol

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:09

The Bureau of the Consensus?

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Squirrel10:06:26

but the key question @lucas.rettig is how do you get "buy-in"? Keep listening, we have more

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Squirrel10:06:41

@nuwayser i'd claim that's squarely bureaucratic - defensive reasoning and low trust means people "follow the rules" of being nice (plus what @jtf just said)

Thomas Williams10:06:40

Thanks, was trying to grab a snippet before it changed! :)

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Squirrel10:06:02

get ready! hands on keyboard

Squirrel10:06:10

telepathy about to be demonstrated

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Squirrel10:06:33

HOW should we decide where should DOES be next year?

Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:56

Decide by focusing on the outcome of increasing the size of the ITRev community

Ralf Sigmund10:06:03

let's decide this by RFC and consent decision

Cindy Vineberg10:06:05

List pros and cons of diferent locations

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat10:06:07

We want a fun location that can handle a large conference.

Ugur Yilmaz10:06:09

To make it available to all, let's look at the distribution of all people

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target10:06:17

the most senior person should decideโ€ฆ kidding

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps10:06:17

Just pick the cheapest proposal, right?

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)10:06:18

Where is the mean of timezones of participants?

Renรฉ Lippert10:06:25

Let Gene decide ๐Ÿ™‚

David Watson10:06:26

Whiteboard with requirements

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:31

@cindy_vineberg was the person we saw

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Kasia Karpinska10:06:32

prep the options, short list them, present to the team, listen to them, make a decision based on them

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike10:06:43

Bottom Up "pair prgramming" conversation

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Kasia Karpinska10:06:53

I predicted the question 2w in advance ๐Ÿ˜›

Blake (Community at DZone; Gene Kim Fan Club Member 2,000,005)10:06:12

Ditto what @stijn.liesenborghs said. Must be the shoes

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Aidan Moriarty10:06:36

How does this out of body experience feel like, hosting yourselves hosting a talk ?? ๐Ÿ˜„

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:22

Kind of odd! But also sort of empowering. I have a pretty good idea of where the talk is going. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Squirrel10:06:52

@lucas.rettig "the most senior person should decideโ€ฆ kidding" - that is not an invalid decisionmaking rule actually! The key thing is to be curious and transparent as you decide, but you definitely don't have to have everyone (or anyone!) agree

Squirrel10:06:52

@lucas.rettig "the most senior person should decideโ€ฆ kidding" - that is not an invalid decisionmaking rule actually! The key thing is to be curious and transparent as you decide, but you definitely don't have to have everyone (or anyone!) agree

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target10:06:47

as long as it doesnt come at the cost of collaboration and idea sharingโ€ฆ. iโ€™ve been in situations (thankfully not lately in my careers) where everyone shows up and waits on the senior leader, agrees, and resents later. but definitely agree with you on the above

Squirrel10:06:46

yes, the rest of the talk is about how to avoid that ๐Ÿ™‚

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target10:06:01

enjoying thus far

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Mark Goble10:06:16

What does the customer want?

Tom Sheeran10:06:24

Nothing destroys a culture like gaps between behavior espoused and behavior demonstrated

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Alex van Assem10:06:45

What do you want the archieve? What location get your closer / closest to that goal?

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike10:06:46

I really like the collaborative way. But sometimes it is hard to get results, or decisions made. Any advice there?

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike10:06:46

I really like the collaborative way. But sometimes it is hard to get results, or decisions made. Any advice there?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:58

Hard in what way @stijn.liesenborghs?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:16

In my experience it is hard because people are being too nice, rather than honest.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:57

When people start being transparent and curious I find it can be surprisingly quick!

Blake (Community at DZone; Gene Kim Fan Club Member 2,000,005)10:06:13

I assume they'll get to this point towards the end. In larger companies we all meet or do collab meetings or team bonding, only to end up at a stalemate. Then on the roadmap better synergy is put on the 5 year plan.

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Squirrel10:06:18

actually @tom.sheeran we'd say humans can't avoid the gap between "espoused theory" and "theory-in-use" - but that the methods we're going to show you help you course correct constantly

Jerimiah Owens10:06:46

One of the must underdeveloped skills is courageous authenticity within leadership. And make no mistake, it is a skill.

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Jerimiah Owens10:06:46

One of the must underdeveloped skills is courageous authenticity within leadership. And make no mistake, it is a skill.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:53

And developing skill takes practice!

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Squirrel10:06:54

keep listening @stijn.liesenborghs - we have specific advice to give you, but you'll need a pen and paper - follow along!

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Tom Sheeran10:06:56

@ds Violent agreement here

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat10:06:05

PAPER and a PEN? Who has those in 2020?

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Squirrel10:06:39

@ann.marie.99 you can cheat a bit and use a computer if you really want. but it's not OK to do only in your head - much less valuable

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Squirrel10:06:39

@ann.marie.99 you can cheat a bit and use a computer if you really want. but it's not OK to do only in your head - much less valuable

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Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat10:06:23

I eventually found a pencil and an index card. ๐Ÿ˜

Kurt A (Speaker) Blameless, SRE Architect10:06:16

Yep, it's really hard to fold a desktop screen ๐Ÿ˜„

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Squirrel10:06:56

you can draw a line down the middle, don't break your monitor ๐Ÿ™‚

Squirrel10:06:07

did you have any aha moments @ann.marie.99?

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat22:06:50

I might use this tactic when arguing with my husband. Not sure how heโ€™ll take it, though!

Squirrel10:06:00

and @stijn.liesenborghs you might like our upcoming workshop on "Mining for Conflict" where we go into more detail on how to overcome those obstacles to collaboration - see https://www.conversationaltransformation.com/resources/

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:34

โ€œYou donโ€™t need every wordโ€ < removing excuses

Ugur Yilmaz10:06:01

How to do this within groups? (like 5-10 people)

Ugur Yilmaz10:06:01

How to do this within groups? (like 5-10 people)

Ugur Yilmaz10:06:37

should we follow the same principles on a greater scale or do you have some suggestions for groups?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:26

same principles @u.yilmaz. each person is individually transparent and curious. helps make the whole group much more effective.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:58

you work on your own skills, and then you can apply them in any conversation.

JeremyDouglas - Catapult PR10:06:46

This is fun @jtf @ds

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Jiล™รญ Klouda10:06:09

(3) Iโ€™ve read the book and have done the exercise already.

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Jiล™รญ Klouda10:06:09

(3) Iโ€™ve read the book and have done the exercise already.

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Martin Huter10:06:03

Switched session which book is referred here? ๐Ÿ˜…

Blake (Community at DZone; Gene Kim Fan Club Member 2,000,005)10:06:30

I thought it was PAPER and BREAD?

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Squirrel10:06:11

@u.yilmaz you can start by doing the conversational analysis yourself, which will help you improve - and then you can introduce to the others as @jtf suggested. but NO EXCUSES - you can improve all by yourself, don't need to wait!

Squirrel10:06:11

@u.yilmaz you can start by doing the conversational analysis yourself, which will help you improve - and then you can introduce to the others as @jtf suggested. but NO EXCUSES - you can improve all by yourself, don't need to wait!

Ugur Yilmaz10:06:04

Thanks very much, I was more thinking like could it be done for group conversations like what if I am following a scenario with 5-10 people instead of two people. I see now that it is totally possible and would help a lot ๐Ÿ™‚

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Squirrel10:06:42

These slides will be available after if you want to read the conversations more slowly and follow along. (And the conversation is in the book too.)

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Joachim10:06:16

How do you introduce the 4Rs to an executive audience? What reactions do you get and how do you deal with them?

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Joachim10:06:16

How do you introduce the 4Rs to an executive audience? What reactions do you get and how do you deal with them?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:20

@joachimsammer: I introduce the 4Rs only after agreeing on the problem. And it is pretty common for CEOs to agree that they arenโ€™t having as productive a collaboration with their executive team as they wish they did.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:08

Sometimes I start by just asking: โ€œare you frustrated?โ€ Then I give the good/bad news: โ€œit might be your fault.โ€

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:34

Good news is because if it is your fault then you can do something to improve it.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:16

Another way to introduce these ideas is to start with the HBR article mentioned earlier. Execs often appreciate the appeal to authority. :)

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:17

Pro-tip: it is easier to spot (or think you spot) these problems in someone elseโ€ฆ and when you do? Just assume youโ€™re making the same mistake at the same time.

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Blake (Community at DZone; Gene Kim Fan Club Member 2,000,005)10:06:30

Transparency and productivity. So critical to get to having vulnerable conversations with coworkers on different teams. Versus everyone holding their cards close to their chest and giving the in meeting "YES we will do that" and knowing full well they have no plans to follow through.

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Thomas Williams10:06:11

This is awesome.

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JeremyDouglas - Catapult PR10:06:49

#NorbertvsQuinn - who will win?!

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Renรฉ Lippert10:06:32

But it is not about winning. Both have to win for the greater good.

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Squirrel10:06:35

@joachimsammer great question, we do this all the time. The most common response is "this sounds great, you should show all those other people (in my team or that other team or at my customer) how to do this". What we then do are roleplays like the one you're hearing, and the aha moment is when the execs realise that the situation is (partly) their fault, and they can do something different to change it.

Alex van Assem10:06:47

Those feet in the background ๐Ÿ‘ฃ ๐Ÿ˜Ž

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:01

@genek101 virtual conferences โžก๏ธ more opportunities for audience participation!

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM10:06:01

@genek101 virtual conferences โžก๏ธ more opportunities for audience participation!

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inactive10:06:14

Thatโ€™s awesome to hear, @pnuwayser! I hope youโ€™re enjoying the conference so far!! Itโ€™s fascinating to explore how we best explore this new medium. And we havenโ€™t even gotten to the โ€œreal networkingโ€ portion of the conference! cc @jeff.gallimore

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)11:06:12

Engagement is much higher in this forum, especially since itโ€™s encouraged during the talks

Joachim10:06:46

Thank you @ds @jtf

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Joachim10:06:46

Thank you @ds @jtf

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Kasia Karpinska10:06:53

on Amazon, ordering the book

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Kasia Karpinska10:06:53

on Amazon, ordering the book

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Hannah Beech10:06:02

Just done the same!

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Mark Goble10:06:05

Same here ๐Ÿ™‚

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Squirrel10:06:53

thanks all! do let us know what you think after you read it (and DO THE ANALYSES) (sorry for shouting, it's just so important to do the work ๐Ÿ™‚ )

gerald10:06:16

you do the 4R exercise as part of self-analysis/ introspection, right?

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gerald10:06:16

you do the 4R exercise as part of self-analysis/ introspection, right?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:01

yep, thatโ€™s it exactly. self-analysis is the key since the only behavior I can change is my own!

gerald10:06:15

got it. thanks! ๐Ÿ˜„

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations10:06:27

clarification: you can do self-analysis with others

gerald10:06:46

wow this is nice!

gerald10:06:33

will try this out ๐Ÿ™‚

Squirrel10:06:44

indeed, if you like join Jeffrey tonight for the (virtual) meetup and practise there! See link above

gerald10:06:10

will check! thanks! ๐Ÿ™‚

Squirrel10:06:32

sure @joachimsammer! We're glad to discuss further too with you (and anyone else) - options for finding us and discussing further coming up on screen shortly

Squirrel10:06:06

@gerald.turaray_devops sure, but you can also do it with a trusted friend - really helps for roleplay - or even with the person you are having the conversation with, if you feel brave

Squirrel10:06:06

@gerald.turaray_devops sure, but you can also do it with a trusted friend - really helps for roleplay - or even with the person you are having the conversation with, if you feel brave

gerald10:06:47

you have a point. it also helps building relationship with that person

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Blake (Community at DZone; Gene Kim Fan Club Member 2,000,005)10:06:26

Great presentation!

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Thomas Williams10:06:38

Indeed, great convo!

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Squirrel10:06:39

we'd love to hear from any of you!

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Jerimiah Owens10:06:47

๐Ÿ‘

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Markus Lauttia10:06:49

great stuff!

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Squirrel10:06:54

also we have a workshop coming up next week - see https://www.conversationaltransformation.com/resources/

Rob Falla10:06:56

Nice

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Terry Akkers10:06:59

Thanks! Great stuff

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Ugur Yilmaz10:06:25

๐Ÿ‘

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Squirrel10:06:26

Fri 3 July on Mining For Conflict - much more detail and more personalised than we were able to go into here - https://www.conversationaltransformation.com/resources/

Squirrel11:06:35

I have to go now but want to repeat we love hearing from listeners/readers and discussing these topics, so do get in touch at https://www.conversationaltransformation.com/

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:49

Thank you @jtf and @ds -- I will be buying this from my local bookshop Politics & Prose in DC

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:49

Thank you @jtf and @ds -- I will be buying this from my local bookshop Politics & Prose in DC

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:46

Great! And now Iโ€™m going to have to ask my uncle in DC what he thinks of that bookshopโ€ฆ mostly to blow his mind that Iโ€™ve heard of it. ๐Ÿ™‚

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:05

fun fact: it's neighbors with Comet Ping Pong #pizzagate

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:04

heh! another connect-the-dots moment.

Peter Fassbinder11:06:07

Great example of non empowerment (sign - light bulb)

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:33

Thanks! I've been wanting to use that metaphor for 10 years ๐Ÿ™‚

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:53

โ€œdonโ€™t just change the lightbulb; change the dang sign.โ€ < great message!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:17

@tal: your low-context message reminds me a lot of Nudge and the power of default rules.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:17

@tal: your low-context message reminds me a lot of Nudge and the power of default rules.

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:37

Agreed! I'm a fan of "power of defaults". It's very powerful. Though, promise me you'll use that superpower for good, not evil.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:05

โ€œIf you canโ€™t use it for evil it isnโ€™t a superpowerโ€

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Martin Huter11:06:11

Our CI/CD pipeline embodies our recommended practices @tal โ€ข How do you share this properly between teams without tying them together or force them to use something shared?

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Martin Huter11:06:11

Our CI/CD pipeline embodies our recommended practices @tal โ€ข How do you share this properly between teams without tying them together or force them to use something shared?

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:29

Good question. One way is to try encourage (force?) all new projects to use the standard. Then create incentives for older projects to adopt them. The best incentive isn't a tshirt/bonus/etc. but to just have respected people say compliments about the results they see in the projects that adopt it. Engineers will ask around "how did they do that?" and they'll discover the new default standard was the key.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)11:06:40

Yes, this. Being recognized is the best reward.

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat11:06:33

I LOVE the signs on the floor of Paddington Station. I noticed this when I was there for the first time a couple of years ago.

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:32

I'm immediately distracted by why the meaning of "A.B.A." is "Always Be Documenting..." :thinking_face:

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech11:06:16

@tal your LinkedIn profile wins Modesty Award of the Day

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JeremyDouglas - Catapult PR11:06:23

good responses to excuses to not document... sounds like an Agile Conversations problem!

Martin Huter11:06:17

๐Ÿ‘‹

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:40

Oops... I said "nobody likes documentation" when I meant "nobody likes TO WRITE documentation".

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:16

๐Ÿ’ก : people might enjoy writing documentation more if they got readership stats! What about getting visibility into documentation page views?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:16

๐Ÿ’ก : people might enjoy writing documentation more if they got readership stats! What about getting visibility into documentation page views?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:10

My first job was in technical support at Borland (back in the day). I remember writing TI 1040. I remember the number of the Technical Information note because I got download statsโ€ฆ and I kept track. ๐Ÿ™‚

Martin Sperrin11:06:28

I actually quite enjoy it... ๐Ÿ™‚

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech11:06:29

โ€if l doc this l can go on to more interesting stuffโ€ is totes more common than โ€œif l doc somebody else can do my job and lโ€™ll be uselessโ€ - NOT

Mark Reynolds11:06:13

@tal - How do you organise documentation so people can find it? Iโ€™ve worked in lots of places with wikiโ€™s polluted with out of date docs. Do you need a librarian?

Mark Reynolds11:06:13

@tal - How do you organise documentation so people can find it? Iโ€™ve worked in lots of places with wikiโ€™s polluted with out of date docs. Do you need a librarian?

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:51

I often find one person on the team is willing to be the part-time librarian. Alternatively, having a tech writer consultant can create a structure that others can fill in easily. (with yearly visits for a tune-up) If you have a good structure, people will stick with it. (The power of defaults.)

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:35

I agree that on a sufficiently large team thereโ€™s generally someone who enjoys refactoring the wiki, if theyโ€™re given any time and encouragement to do so.

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Mark Reynolds11:06:14

Iโ€™ll go find some volunteers, thanks for tips.

Jurgis Primagovas11:06:31

Love the blank screen examples ๐Ÿ˜„

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:35

@tal Have you seen organizations publish a "documentation workflow" similar to a development workflow?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:41

out of date documentation can be like that sign with the old track name

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:41

out of date documentation can be like that sign with the old track name

Markus Lauttia11:06:47

I think its once again about culture. Having a good documentation should be a joint goal and responsibility.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:31

so out of date documentation might be a useful โ€œculture smellโ€? so if you find it, something to bring up at the next retrospective?

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:46

Yeah. I'm a fan of systems that change the color of a doc that hasn't been updated in a while. Paper turns yellow as it gets old, and wiki pages should too.

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Erik Sackman11:06:18

alert doc template = post mortem template?

Erik Sackman11:06:18

alert doc template = post mortem template?

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:44

These are different templates. The alert template is "what to do if you get this alert". The postmortem template is for the report the receiver of the alert writes after the incident.

Vlad Ukis11:06:42

@tal which alert template do you use / prefer?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:46

โ€œwrite for your 4 am selfโ€ is a good way to think about your audience!

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Markus Lauttia11:06:49

The most read StackOverflow article ๐Ÿ˜† I've read that at least a dozen times

Markus Lauttia11:06:49

The most read StackOverflow article ๐Ÿ˜† I've read that at least a dozen times

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:12

"I've been using VIM for 8 years... I can't figure out how to quit." ๐Ÿ™‚

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike11:06:01

Sometimes it is hard to define what to put in your doc repo (confluence) and what is your git repo (readme)

Stijn Liesenborghs - Engineering Mgr - Nike11:06:01

Sometimes it is hard to define what to put in your doc repo (confluence) and what is your git repo (readme)

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:12

I like when the README is a list of links that point to other places.

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JeremyDouglas - Catapult PR11:06:22

@tal how often (or how do you) best leverage Slack for documentation? Any workflows or suggestions you want to share?

JeremyDouglas - Catapult PR11:06:22

@tal how often (or how do you) best leverage Slack for documentation? Any workflows or suggestions you want to share?

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:12

Slack is ephemera. I think it is a good place to start a discussion but then I promote the content to something more permanent. There is an integration for Slack + Stack. For example, you can click on something someone said and generate a "Hey, this would make a great document on SO" message. (Slack is great, btw. I use it 8+ hours each day.)

JeremyDouglas - Catapult PR11:06:47

What is your favorite kind of "permanent" doc?

Tom Ayerst11:06:27

put your docs into git

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Tom Ayerst11:06:27

put your docs into git

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Martin Huter11:06:25

antora helps with generating a good page from it ๐Ÿ˜„ (https://antora.org/)

Erik Sackman11:06:44

markdown in git works fine

Erik Sackman11:06:44

markdown in git works fine

Pete Nuwayser - IBM11:06:00

You would think so...! Still run into teams who would prefer to use a wiki. I like using version control for documentation so that changes can be reviewed using a similar workflow.

Tom Ayerst11:06:24

Also, Architectural Decision Records (ADRs) in git are very powerful

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Tom Ayerst11:06:24

Also, Architectural Decision Records (ADRs) in git are very powerful

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Martin Huter11:06:30

Have you a good example for this? That sound like something I want to steal.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations11:06:26

โค๏ธ Stone Soup. My favorite kind. ๐Ÿ™‚

Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)11:06:49

Who else hates or is dreadful of #BlankScreen ? (Low Context DevOps: 3 Ways to End Knowledge Frustration (Stack Overflow))

Luke11:06:14

@tal Thanks for the brilliant talk!

Rodrigo Navarro11:06:18

amazing talk ๐Ÿ‘ thank you @tal

Erik Sackman11:06:20

"dark mode blank screen" :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Erik Sackman11:06:27

thx for the talk

Ralf Sigmund11:06:32

๐Ÿ‘@tal

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:49

Thanks everyone! I'll be here all day for Q&A!

Brandon Ferrari11:06:54

@tal Thank you for the wonderful talk! Loved every point in it

Richard Phillips11:06:19

Thanks - enjoyed that talk a lot ๐Ÿ™‚

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)11:06:25

Thanks @tal that was a great reminder of the need to spread knowledge rather than hoard it ๐Ÿ™‚

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)11:06:25

Thanks @tal that was a great reminder of the need to spread knowledge rather than hoard it ๐Ÿ™‚

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:43

Thanks! I find that in older/bureaucratic companies people maintain power by hoarding information. You're "the person that people have to come to if they want X-Y-Z". In newer companies knowledge comes from sharing power. You're power comes from "he/she/they're the person that taught me X-Y-Z... gosh, they've taught everyone!" That's modern power in an organization!

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Martin Huter11:06:43

I see another problem that most companies have not figured out how to document properly and spread the knowledge without creating too much spam, unused documentation that hides the required one in a forest of documents. From a dev perspective a main problem is that documentation is not integrated into the development process.

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps11:06:04

One way to keep docs fresh is to gamify things. SO has upvotes and people get very motivated to gain reputation points, update answers so they stay fresh, etc. As far as integrating with the dev process... part of this is expectations from management. Managers need to expect docs to be part of the process. However, you can go the other route: Make sure your post-dev doc game is really good. Create a tag named after the project, watch new posts related to that tag, and answer those questions. You'll write less but what you do write will be what the audience needs.

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Jurgis Primagovas11:06:43

@tal Thank you! Enjoyed the talk ๐Ÿ™‚

Tom Ayerst11:06:17

๐Ÿ‘:skin-tone-5:

sarathkanduri11:06:33

@tal Thanks, I like the point about documentation and linking it where it is needed.

Renรฉ Lippert12:06:16

@mik do you have a good way to identify how many value streams you have in your software production?

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Renรฉ Lippert12:06:16

@mik do you have a good way to identify how many value streams you have in your software production?

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)15:06:18

@rene.lippert Define value streams by what a customer is โ€œpullingโ€, ie, following the Unicorn Projectโ€™s 5th idea of Customer Focus. For the Product Value Stream you need a well-defined customer, internal or external to the organization, and a product that encapsulates the value that they are pulling via feature requests, etc. The value stream is then defined by all of the teams that need to support that. We generally see up to 10 agile/feature teams to support, ie, Value Streams are a โ€œteam of teamsโ€ level construct, not a team level construct. Avoid equating value streams to agile/feature teams as that is too granular. Note that you can cascade value streams into product lines or domains as we saw BMW present at the 2019 DOES London keynote. For some conceptual background, check out the โ€œTeam of Teamsโ€ keynote by David Silverman, as well as the โ€œTeam Topologiesโ€ work by @me1208 and @matthew featured at this conference! /Cc @genek101 @cdeardo

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Renรฉ Lippert12:06:13

@mik Do you also would say that each development/devops team should have it's own value stream? So that they can have full control about their value stream end to end?

Carmen12:06:50

hi @rene.lippert - This is Carmen DeArdo who is a Flow Advisor at Tasktop who is helping answer any questions. What we find is that most customers have both external and internal product value streams and actually have more internal value streams (e.g. platform teams) which should include the Integrated IT Pipeline.

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Carmen12:06:50

Yes the Integrated IT pipeline may be the most important product a company has however most times it is not treated as a product and not architected for flow.

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Darryl Brown12:06:09

When @mik references core backend services, is he referring to infrastructure or traditional application data backend services?

Carmen12:06:10

In this case, it's the latter. However in general, the bottleneck could be anywhere including a dependent system or value stream.

Carmen12:06:39

Many times when a company "slays the monolith" it's not prioritized to unlock the maximum business value. So a lot of money is invested in some new product but the true bottleneck could be a legacy back end system whose work (or improvement in doing work - i.e. Debt) is not being prioritized.

Darryl Brown12:06:34

Ok, I recently moved from application to more of an engineering role to provide a solutions architecture view to my organization, and i have found a lot of waste across all teams in a value stream is in the wait states for data movement, infrastructure deployment, boundary resolution, etc.

Andy Sturrock12:06:04

"Stop starting, start finishing". This fixes so many barriers to Flow.

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Carmen12:06:26

Absolutely! It's where work waits - people keep busy. IN creative work we can't see this inventory build up. Identifying wait states is key to understanding where to invest to improve flow.

Mark Goble12:06:38

Also commit to the work before accepting the work - i.e. do you have the resources to finish?

Andy Sturrock12:06:55

I have seen teams being able to get on with stuff more recently because they are more difficult to interrupt.

Carmen12:06:00

I love that quote which came from @dominica - I use it a lot in coaching. Too much starting new work and not enough finishing.

Andy Sturrock12:06:23

However, sometimes things queue up because it's more difficult to do things which really are easier face to face

Colin Claverie12:06:45

โ€œstart finishingโ€

Carmen12:06:53

Being remote makes having work visible and accurate in the tooling even more important.

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Mark Goble12:06:55

Yep - we would see a lot of things start but the people and resources available to finish werenโ€™t available so people start on the next thing

Carmen12:06:29

Right. Too much WIP then leads to the the other thieves taking hold. Unplanned work is another thief. Then work gets neglected.

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:42

@cdeardo - do you typically advise your clients to start documenting and tagging all of the work that they do to start getting to some of these metrics? or is that something you all do as part of the engagement?

Renรฉ Lippert12:06:01

My biggest problem in the organisation is not tracking work and the invisible work. I am not sure but it really might be a conclusion that this psychological safety is not there. Is there a good way to understand if I do have a psychological safety problem?

Carmen12:06:09

Yes we coach to be able to track all 4 types of work; features, defects but also risk and debt.

Carmen12:06:09

Yes we coach to be able to track all 4 types of work; features, defects but also risk and debt.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:06:22

From a conversation with @rohrersm, we should consider calling debt, debt. We don't always need to wait for something to be considered debt. Maybe it's continuous improvement? i.e. features, failure demand (defects), risk and continuous improvement?

Carmen13:06:57

Yes, this has been a topic of debate @jonathansmart1 ๐Ÿ™‚ Some of us recommended continuous improvement a few years ago. The feedback here was interesting and will generate more discussion I am sure. Thanks for participating!

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Carmen12:06:31

These map to value generation and value protection.

Andy Sturrock12:06:33

@lucas.rettig I'd recommend just get them to start recording all the work first. That's a big change for most teams! Then move on to tagging.

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Carmen12:06:40

Features generate value. Defects and Risks protect value.

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Carmen12:06:18

Debt also generates value by investing in future flow improvements. Many times there is little or no visibility or priority to this type work which can start the debt sprial if one is not careful.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:16

Iโ€™m still not comfortable with calling this work โ€œDebtโ€.

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:38

The positive language of โ€œtechnical improvementโ€ resonates much better with my senior execs

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:38

The positive language of โ€œtechnical improvementโ€ resonates much better with my senior execs

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:04

i lean towards โ€œthings we do as a product teamโ€

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:30

i struggle to label thingsโ€ฆ just lean on documenting the things that we do

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:06:58

technical, process and cultural improvement

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:50

is this going to make us more efficient? Is this going to move an KPI of our business?

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target12:06:02

i ask questions like that and expect the POs on my team to be able to answer

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Andy Sturrock12:06:04

Not with mine. They think that's tech people messing around.

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Carmen12:06:05

Yeah Debt refers to any improvement - People, Process or Technology. I know at one point Mik and Gene had a discussion about a 5th time of work called Continuous Improvement. But the decision was made to call all this work Debt.

Jeremy McGee12:06:32

'Debt' implies there's interest due ...

Jeremy McGee12:06:32

'Debt' implies there's interest due ...

Chris Leeworthy (he/him)13:06:52

which matches my experience, the longer debt is left undealt with, the more expensive it is to fix

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Carmen12:06:34

So it could be Tech Debt but also WoW (ways of working)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:06:38

"Improvement" improves how the value is delivered (BSSH)

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:02

Exactly. For my context at least I have to talk about that class of work with positive language.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:23

(And using Viz where itโ€™s hardcoded to โ€œDebtโ€ might be problematic :))

Carmen12:06:24

Well Debt can lead to more defects if the code base is fragile which leads to less investment in features. Left unchecked the Debt Spiral can take up all a team's capacity addressing defects instead of new feature work.

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx12:06:04

But where improvement work can make radical differences

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Carmen12:06:09

right - it's all about making the information visible so the right conversation can take place.

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Carmen12:06:33

The team itself knows best how to utilize the metrics. Like a Deming Quality Circle.

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Carmen12:06:04

I coach on how to model and what patterns we see. But the experiments for improvements have to come from the team itself.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)12:06:27

Great talk @mik Pointing leadership your way. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Andy Sturrock12:06:54

That's an interesting point. There are times when debt is impeding flow, but other times when flow can be improved by some more positive work. maybe that's "investment" rather than paying down debt?

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Andy Sturrock12:06:54

That's an interesting point. There are times when debt is impeding flow, but other times when flow can be improved by some more positive work. maybe that's "investment" rather than paying down debt?

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Olivier Jacques, DXC12:06:56

๐Ÿ‘ Thanks @mik - insightful talk

Carmen12:06:07

@mik will also be following up but there's more info available here also https://flowframework.org/faq/

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]12:06:24

Great talk @mik and thanks @cdeardo

Karl Marfitt12:06:30

Thanks Mik, interesting talk ๐Ÿ™‚

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)12:06:42

Thanks @cdeardo and good to see you again.

Carmen12:06:57

Thanks @bryan.finster - ditto!

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)12:06:53

@cdeardo is speaking tomorrow with @nicole.bryan at 1325 BST!

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Julia Harrison (GDS)12:06:43

๐ŸŽค Hello DevOps people! I'll be here during my talk Leading Smart People, posting the books I reference as I go along, so you don't need to take notes :) Please feel free to ask questions along the way ๐Ÿ˜€

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Carmen12:06:13

Thanks @jessicam - nice to almost see you! I am also facilitating a Lean Coffee starting soon. See the #lean-coffee channel for more details.

Julia Harrison (GDS)12:06:03

ooh, I don't know! It's not a topic I'm familiar with.

Carmen12:06:52

Thanks everyone. I will exit now since @mail832 will be starting. Thanks for your participation!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations12:06:25

I can see this talk by @mail832 coming up in the #bof-leadership discussion

Kurt A (Speaker) Blameless, SRE Architect12:06:27

Great book about leading: Keith Ferrazi's Leading Without Authority too

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:57

๐Ÿ“– Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose, the ingredients for intrinsic motivation, are from Drive by Dan Pink ๐Ÿ“บ or if you only have 20 mins, his TED talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_the_puzzle_of_motivation)

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:57

๐Ÿ“– Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose, the ingredients for intrinsic motivation, are from Drive by Dan Pink ๐Ÿ“บ or if you only have 20 mins, his TED talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_the_puzzle_of_motivation)

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:34

Ooh, haven't seen that one! Must give it a watch ๐Ÿ™‚ I have to confess, I read the book aaaages ago and haven't re-visited it in a while.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech13:06:49

@mail832 you touched on it already - the dark side of Psychological Safety as studied by Prof Dr Amy Edmondson - the negative behaviour of not speaking up for fear of appearing Incompetent, Ignorant, Negative or Intrusive. (I add โ€œfear of appearing unprofessionalโ€ too) which kills PS in teams. (Which is why we measure it with alarms in our software) let

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech13:06:49

@mail832 you touched on it already - the dark side of Psychological Safety as studied by Prof Dr Amy Edmondson - the negative behaviour of not speaking up for fear of appearing Incompetent, Ignorant, Negative or Intrusive. (I add โ€œfear of appearing unprofessionalโ€ too) which kills PS in teams. (Which is why we measure it with alarms in our software) let

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:13

ah, interesting! now I want to learn more ๐Ÿ™‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:09

@mail832: what kind of material was covered in the โ€œcoaching trainingโ€? That sounds really interesting.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:09

@mail832: what kind of material was covered in the โ€œcoaching trainingโ€? That sounds really interesting.

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:35

I can boil it down to four things: 1. Listen actively 2. Ask powerful questions 3. Get commitment

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:11

and 4. is PRACTICE - best thing about the programme was that we had ten weeks' worth of trio practice sessions to try those out on our fellow learners before we unleashed on our own teams ๐Ÿ™‚

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:36

Skills are about practice, not just about knowledge.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:53

Understanding how a piano works doesnโ€™t mean you can play the piano.

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:06

If I could โž• that ten times, I would ๐Ÿ™‚

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech13:06:42

@mail832 Thereโ€™s a couple of videos on Impression Management on http://www.psychologicalsafety.works/resources but happy to send you more

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Olivier Jacques, DXC13:06:25

[...] -> my favorite "powerful question"

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John Boyes13:06:17

> If we do that, will you feel proud of it? Love this powerful question, @mail832 :thumbsup:

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Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target13:06:35

@mail832 - approx how much time do your product mgrs spend with stakeholders vs the dev team?

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target13:06:35

@mail832 - approx how much time do your product mgrs spend with stakeholders vs the dev team?

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:47

That varies a lot. Sometimes it's less than we'd like. Sometimes if we're partnering with a specific team on a piece of work, the PM might even go and sit with that team for a few days a week.

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target13:06:10

iโ€™ve had to pull my POs/PMs out of our pods and encourage them to spend more time with their stakeholdersโ€ฆ i had a big problem a year or 2 ago where they were spending 90%+ time in the pods with the engineering teams and we werent answering any of the questions you are posing

Luke Rettig - Sr Director Target13:06:55

so โ€œless than we likeโ€ is a perfect answer ๐Ÿ˜‰

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:18

Field research can be good. If there's a particular team you're working closely with, start attending their ceremonies, if you're in a physical office maybe even sit where you can overhear them, learn about their pain. If you're remote, join their slack channels if they'll have you, find out where they hang out ๐Ÿ™‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:39

โ€œdonโ€™t build things, solve problemsโ€ < :thumbsup:

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech13:06:49

Youโ€™re describing Psychological Safety and EQ through practical product ownership - very cool

Pete Nuwayser - IBM13:06:01

"I want to use OpenShift" -> "What does your application do?"

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM13:06:06

Strategy Debt: Stop Starting & Start Finishing

Pete Nuwayser - IBM13:06:06

Strategy Debt: Stop Starting & Start Finishing

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:08

Interesting thought! I'd been thinking of that phrase in a Kanban kind of scope, hadn't thought about it at the macro/strategy level

Ann Marie Fred - Red Hat13:06:07

โ€œStrategy Debtโ€ - nice

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems13:06:09

My org has a goal right now of "Adding dashboards and monitoring" and its bothered me for months, but I couldnt figure out why. That focus on the reasoning behind the monitoring and dashboards is a lot more helpful. Good thoughts.

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems13:06:09

My org has a goal right now of "Adding dashboards and monitoring" and its bothered me for months, but I couldnt figure out why. That focus on the reasoning behind the monitoring and dashboards is a lot more helpful. Good thoughts.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)13:06:03

I have this conversations internally "We need to measure these things!" "Why?' ...long pause.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech13:06:06

I have a love-hate relationship with data and its visualisation - we made a Dashboard after all but l think of it as a Product Owner as an artefact- a space to enable the non-data People Practice work

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:19

:woman-running: runs for cover after mentioning 'debt'

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:34

โ€œhow are we adding value along the way?โ€ < โž• 1๏ธโƒฃ

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:47

๐Ÿ“– Two books about OKRs: โ€ข Measure What Matters by John Doerr โ€ข Radical Focus by Christina Wodtke

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:47

๐Ÿ“– Two books about OKRs: โ€ข Measure What Matters by John Doerr โ€ข Radical Focus by Christina Wodtke

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:08

I was introduced to OKRs from this video, which I thought was pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJB83EZtAjc

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:13

(Confession: I have read neither of these. Most of what I know about OKRs is from working with people who know more than I do.)

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:30

And here's something I SHOULD have said in the bit about OKRs. The team doing the work should develop the OKRs. Ideally in conversation/collaboration with the stakeholder (the person who best understands the need, not necessarily the person who signs off), or if that's logistically tricky, could be that the team absorbs as much context as they can, comes up with a set of OKRs and brings them back to the stakeholder for feedback, maybe iterates a couple of times. That way, you have the team bought into what they're trying to achieve, makes it less likely to slip into "build the thing" thinking.

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:30

And here's something I SHOULD have said in the bit about OKRs. The team doing the work should develop the OKRs. Ideally in conversation/collaboration with the stakeholder (the person who best understands the need, not necessarily the person who signs off), or if that's logistically tricky, could be that the team absorbs as much context as they can, comes up with a set of OKRs and brings them back to the stakeholder for feedback, maybe iterates a couple of times. That way, you have the team bought into what they're trying to achieve, makes it less likely to slip into "build the thing" thinking.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:29

The team doing the work should develop the OKRs. < :thumbsup: This is really key!

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:09

I know! Can't believe I forgot to say it on the recording! :woman-facepalming:

Jeremy McGee13:06:25

โ˜๏ธ this

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:27

could be that the team absorbs as much context as they can, comes up with a set of OKRs and brings them back to the stakeholder for feedback <_ reminds me of Briefing + Back-briefing as described in The Art of Action

Pete Nuwayser - IBM13:06:01

TFW the speaker prepares meta-notes and uploads them in real time ๐Ÿ™‚

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:40

Serious l'รฉsprit d'รฉscalier after I recorded this talk. Straight away I was making notes of the things I should have said ๐Ÿ˜ฌ

Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:31

๐Ÿ“– The four types of risk are from Inspired by Marty Cagan. It's a great read about product management generally.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM13:06:03

@genek101 yet another great way to implement virtual conferences! โ˜๏ธ thought-provoking and interactive

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Tom Longstaff13:06:09

@GeneK Yes, I'm doing an upcoming conference that way as well and looking forward to increased interaction

Jeremy McGee13:06:50

it's an interesting and valuable angle to consider designers etc. as identifiers and mitigators of risk

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Julia Harrison (GDS)15:06:05

Bit late picking up on this - it's a boiled-down, heavily reinterpreted version of Information Economics from How to Measure Anything by Douglas W Hubbard

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:47

@mail832: this message around trusting conversations and joint design could be right out Agile Conversations! โค๏ธ

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations13:06:30

โ€œpeople will want to follow youโ€ฆ and thatโ€™s leadershipโ€ < +1

Nic Whittaker13:06:35

@mail832 thank you - loved it

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Robert13:06:36

Thanks for the talk @mail832, very interesting.

thankyou 1
Pete Nuwayser - IBM13:06:37

@mail832 that was excellent - thank you ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ‘

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Grace Hoang13:06:41

@mail832 -- that was a great talk!

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Matthew Joyner13:06:43

An amazing talk. Thanks ๐Ÿ‘

Grace Hoang13:06:49

really appreciated the comments as we went through

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Jeremy McGee13:06:52

@mail832 one I'll be recommending elsewhere at Nationwide - thanks

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Hannah Beech13:06:58

This is all very, very thought provoking - especially the realisation that these are all questions that I'm already asking my team... in not-very direct ways! Thank you, so much @mail832! ๐Ÿ‘

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Kasia Karpinska13:06:59

great stuff ๐Ÿ‘

Ciaran Byrne13:06:12

Great talk @mail832 with lots of practical advice - my fave is "If we do that, will you feel proud of it?" ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:20

Thank you everyone! Glad to hear you found it useful ๐Ÿ’š

Mark Goble13:06:22

Fantastic talk, thanks

Steve Potts13:06:22

Great talk @mail832, resonated well. Writing meaningful OKRs is a real challenge.

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James Toomey13:06:38

@mail832 fantastic content, plan to use a lot of this with our entire organization !

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:53

Feel free to DM me, or we can maybe pick up some of these conversations in #bof-leadership and #bof-project-to-product

Alex Schwartz13:06:47

Hey @mail832, just saw your talk; good stuff inside. Especially I like the questionย What's the cost of getting it wrong?

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Julia Harrison (GDS)13:06:22

thankyou everyone, you were a great audience!

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Chuck Culman20:06:49

Thanks @tal for your presentation. It is very applicable to some issues we're having. Do you have any suggestions for getting various teams to agree to a single platform for documentation? We've got some using Confluence, others using markdown in gitlab, others standing up web pages (and of course, some doing nothing at all).

Chuck Culman20:06:49

Thanks @tal for your presentation. It is very applicable to some issues we're having. Do you have any suggestions for getting various teams to agree to a single platform for documentation? We've got some using Confluence, others using markdown in gitlab, others standing up web pages (and of course, some doing nothing at all).

Sandy Fraser - Stack Overflow09:06:14

Hi @chuck.culman if you'd like, we can intro you directly to Lockheed Martin's Stack Overflow account manager who can have a discussion around this?

TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Low Context DevOps10:06:33

Consolidating down from many tools to 1 (or fewer) can be one of the biggest challenges. My advice: 1. Talk with the users, not the managers. Find out what they LIKE to use and why. Either you'll find consensus already exists, or you'll find the "why" that you need to retain. 2. Be data-driven. I once saw a sunsetting project that... at the announcement... was able to list the number of teams that would be affected, and ordered them by size of transition. It was even able to categorize teams as unaffected, should be a no-brainer, and transition would be hard. Each of those categories was given a different deadline. (but a stern warning that there would be no extensions). The great thing about having that data is that it removed the problem of people throwing up hypotheticals that didn't exist. 3. Set a hard deadline on what you sunset AND the funding (or time) to get the transition done. 4. GAMIFY THE HELL OUT OF IT. Set a leaderboard for people that have converted the most units, a leaderboard for teams, make t-shirts for anyone that gets on the board, etc. etc. etc.

Martin Huter10:06:18

I got a follow up for this question: We currently have confluence, readme.md and some movement to a repository driven documentation with asciidoc. I cant image to get non-engineers to use a git workflow for writing/documenting stuff. - This would point so something like confluence. On the other hand, in my XP, if you want proper documentation for software that documentation needs to life side by side with the code (so in the repository) otherwise it will get outdated, or will never be written. Which would point in a md/asciidoc description in repositories. How can you move in a direction of one single point of truth?