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2022-05-10
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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect09:05:49

Today I will be sharing Bank of New Zealand DevOps transformation experience with my CTO @paul_littlefair "Banking on Flow Metrics" - https://doeseurope2022.sched.com/event/11gDy/banking-on-flow-metrics-bank-of-new-zealand-transformation-journey?iframe=no looking forward to interacting with you all; Our first breakout session on track-1 today.

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Gillian Nieboer11:05:57

Interesting, looking forward to this talk! πŸ‘:skin-tone-2:

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect11:05:23

Hello all, looking forward to interacting with you all here DOES22; Three days of immersive learning experience

Jose Adan Ortiz11:05:24

Always inspiring Lakshminarayanan!

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect11:05:19

Thank you @joseadanof - I, you , we belong to this inspiring, learning, sharing and caring DevOps community. THANK YOU BMK

Ann Perry - IT Revolution11:05:00

⚑ It's a pleasure to welcome back @lbmkrishna, Value Stream Architect, and Paul Littlefair, Executive General Manager of Technology, from the Bank of New Zealand, here to talk about Banking on Flow Metrics ⚑

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect11:05:38

Flow Metrics in nutshell cc - @mik

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Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)11:05:40

Love you costume match @lbmkrishna πŸ™‚

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect11:05:58

The Brand of Kiwi & BNZ πŸ™‚

Filip Berlikowski, CTO11:05:25

So what’s the level of tech dept that you report? πŸ™‚

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect11:05:39

If you are wondering about the differences between different "time" in our DevOps cycle:

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)11:05:50

Tech Debt Report, this is interesting, what would be a good practice to measure and express it?

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect11:05:01

We follow our parent company NAB (National Australian Bank) for some of our tech debt reporting. Measuring based on "Data, Currency, Current State Architecture vs Target State Architecture"

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect11:05:57

The measure includes $$ value of how much we need to pay in principle and interest and "rework" to address the Tech Debt

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:20

@filip ☝️ Thank you for your question

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)12:05:29

Are there resources you can share about this?

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:19

Yes @rshoup - I need to strip of some of the "other" info; I will reach out to you later

Filip Berlikowski, CTO12:05:42

I’d love to see it as well if possible

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:26

OK then, let me update my CV first πŸ™‚ LOL

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:36

Sure, I will ping you all

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Vlad Ukis12:05:03

So am I, thanks @lbmkrishna!

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:46

@paul_littlefair - πŸ™‚

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)12:05:06

"freed up a lot of cash and moved some people out of the way" :)))

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:00

"We see passionate people at DevOps Enterprise Summit - Leaders, practitioners, change agents, thought leaders" - by @paul_littlefair

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Luke Rettig - Target12:05:43

β€œjust start, get going, take that first step”

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:01

Do not wait for stars to align πŸ™‚

Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)12:05:50

Thanks for pointing out that you will start this journey with the wrong numbers and the wrong insights. We're seeing that now too!

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:15

@paul_littlefair & I have shared further our learnings, motivation with @mik https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/bank-of-new-zealand/

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Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)12:05:52

Besides VSM architect how did you ensure team / businesses have someone who knows about VSM.

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:12

That is an interesting one @siddharth.pareek; The fact is that Business is also trying to solve the same problem in value delivery to customer. The fact is they were doing something in the similar lines of Value Stream mapping. Which made our life easy in few cases

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:07

Might not be in the full fledge VSM; but helped us start our 100 meters race from 50th meter

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piotr.papros12:05:50

i think the internal drive makes all the difference, and we are in the space where people are required to learn on the own with a quick pace

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Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)12:05:31

VSM where M may stands for Mapping and Management. What you started first and how did you ensured they both run in parallel in later stages.

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:10

In fact in three steps: Identification, mapping and management

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:24

and also in the sequence

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Peter Fassbinder12:05:20

Want to go faster but 20th century processes are hindering you? Join my talk β€œFrom Milestones to a Continuous Quality Assurance Flow – Applying DevOps in Industrial Environments” starting in a few minutes in track 1. I look forward to your questions!

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant12:05:04

Great talk @lbmkrishna and @paul003!

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution12:05:00

🌟 Coming up, let's welcome @peter.fassbinder, here to present From Milestones to a Continuous Quality Assurance Flow – Applying DevOps in Industrial Environments 🌟

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:04

Thank you all for joining @paul_littlefair & me here; Appreciated. Looking forward to share and talk more about Flow - if you are interested. Ping me here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bmknz/

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)12:05:18

Thanks @lbmkrishna and @paul_littlefair, great stuff! And I encourage everyone to take a look at your episode of Mik+One!

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BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:43

Interesting topic : Continuous Value Streams to Your Customers : Milestones to a Continuous Quality Assurance Flow – Applying DevOps in Industrial Environments by @peter.fassbinder - @annp - Track#1 seems like "Flow" and Value Stream πŸ™‚

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Peter Fassbinder12:05:01

Continuous everything is key, but the different streams have to be setup and managed differently.

Marcus Cziomer12:05:50

I really like the pragmatic approach for non-software artifacts. Something often forgotten in controlled environments and those become the bottlenecks either for deployments or from a adoption perspective

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Peter Fassbinder12:05:23

Does the term "Non-software artifact" resonates with you? Or how would you call it?

Marcus Cziomer12:05:01

Very clear to me. I was looking for a term like this. .

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Peter Fassbinder12:05:04

I don't want to call it regulatory artifacts, since these are only a subset of all non-software artifacts. Today I actually tend to use three terms: 1) Software itself, 2) Software-Close Artifacts (e.g. Requirements, Test Cases, Risks - those are today already managed in most cases in the ALM tool chain on a feature level) 3) Non-Software Artifacts - the ones mentioned in this talk.

Marcus Cziomer12:05:21

Dankeschoen. Makes a lot of sense to me. Already thinking how to apply to my world!

Peter Fassbinder12:05:06

For the same reason we call the new stream Continuous Conformance and not Continuous Compliance

Marcus Cziomer12:05:35

Ok, that does make sense

BMK-BNZ-ValueStreamArchitect12:05:55

100%

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Peter Fassbinder12:05:13

Thanks for joining. If you want to dive deeper into those topics contact me either during the next two days at the DOES or at LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-fassbinder-3a8209194/

Boris Martinovic12:05:41

thank you for the presentation, it was very informative πŸ™‚

Peter Fassbinder12:05:05

Any similar experiences?

Boris Martinovic12:05:11

I am not in the DevOps field for that long, only 1.5 years and I have built the system from the ground up so experience for me was very different.

Boris Martinovic12:05:45

Main challenge for me was to bring older systems and applications to the DevOps and create CI/CD pipelines and processes for older apps built in VB6

Peter Fassbinder12:05:37

It always starts bottom-up with a focus on the tool chain. But as @mcziomer mentioned "I really like the pragmatic approach for non-software artifacts. Something often forgotten in controlled environments and those become the bottlenecks either for deployments or from a adoption perspective". This applies at least to industrial and/or regulated companies. This bottleneck can be seen everywhere in these organizations.

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Boris Martinovic13:05:17

What I also like is the idea of visualising data and providing it in a way that is conventient and accessible for everyone, be it builds or anything else. For example, having a dashboard with build graphs with detailed build times and changelogs provided on a click helps the whole team resolve issues when they arrive. Also, that data can be sent via e-mail or as a notificiation so there is always a way of viewing needed analytics in couple of seconds.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:05:01

Thank you, @peter.fassbinder β€” it’s been amazing to see the evolution of this journey at Siemens!!! πŸŽ‰

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:05:31

BTW, I agree!! What a superb episode of @lbmkrishna and @paul_littlefair on @mik podcast! https://projecttoproduct.org/podcast/bank-of-new-zealand/

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Reminder: The breakout sessions are starting again in 5 minutes. Get in front of your browser and start navigating your way to whichever session you’re attending. https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/files/UATE4LJ94/F01D34MC2KS/image.png

Ann Perry - IT Revolution13:05:00

πŸ”† Introducing @ikrnic and @kmusa from CROZ, here to present, Managing the Flow of Value in Service Organizations πŸ”†

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Kresimir Musa13:05:31

Hi everyone! :-)

Boris Martinovic13:05:41

hello πŸ™‚

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Eliza Kruszelnicka13:05:59

hi everyone

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Scott Prugh (CTO - CSG) DOES Prog Committee13:05:04

Yes!! Balancing between these states is key!

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)13:05:39

I got a lot of help in crafting this message by @scott.prugh, the community I talked about ❀️

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Scott Prugh (CTO - CSG) DOES Prog Committee14:05:30

@ikrnic Its important to inject an intake process that uses ANY sort of quantification of what you work on.

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Scott Prugh (CTO - CSG) DOES Prog Committee14:05:59

And SAYING NO is something we should feel good about! @dominica

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:00

16% of opportunities that we said NO to, opened extra capacity for us for strategic work

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:50

And we want to be better than 16% πŸ™‚

Boris Martinovic14:05:43

Definetely a great intiative! Too often we forget the importance of saying "No"

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Rudi van der Kaaden - TOPdesk14:05:35

"maximize the amount of work NOT done"

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Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:49

Love the manifesto for sustainable service organizations!

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Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:07

Love your message about community > zero-sum game. Hits very close to heart, as I’m also in a service organisation

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead14:05:32

@ikrnic Do you work with companies that have a more old school approach to working? How does the cooperation work? Or are these companies considered as "non-strategic"?

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:36

It so hard and so necessary to change that!

mcico14:05:03

@ikrnic do you have stable teams?

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:01

Yes, it didn't fit in the talk, but foundational step #1 is forming stable team

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Kresimir Musa14:05:03

That one would probably take an entire talk also πŸ™‚ A very important step in our journey

mcico14:05:30

Looking forward to such a talk πŸ˜‰

Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:36

So you are bringing projects to the teams, instead of people to the projects?

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:29

Stable teams, with work flowing to them through kanban board on Flight Level 2

Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:36

We have been talking about this internally… but it’s a complete shift from our current model, so not easy to get that going…

Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:17

Can I ask, how big is Croz? How many people do you have?

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:34

No, it takes some shift in mindset and it's not easy to operationalize but once done, it's priceless

Kresimir Musa14:05:42

It is a very cultural shift also… Learning how to pull, instead of waiting for work to be pushed…

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Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:41

How did you go about introducing that change towards stable teams? I feel like you need some critical mass in project / team volumes for things to work in a service organisation… so I have a hard time imagining how this could be driven β€œbottom-up”/grassroots style.

Kresimir Musa14:05:37

We try to follow the β€œstabilise then standardise” approach with these kinds of changes. It started as an experiment (well designed and prepared) with couple of stable teams. And then we learned from that, and scaled out.

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Kresimir Musa14:05:16

And you are right, couple of really big projects that happened along the way helped in gaining the traction and inertia towards the broader rollout of the initiative.

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Kresimir Musa14:05:29

Now there’s no coming back :-)

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:03

It also helps a lot if you experience some friction along the way when using project teams πŸ™‚ ... And then you prove empirically that stabilizing teams brings benefits, increases knowledge sharing and removes friction

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:55

Would definitely recommend "Dynamic Reteaming" by Heidi Helfand for more insights around stable teams

Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:18

So, are teams responsible for multiple projects at once? Or can you make teams and projects β€œfit” naturally?

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:02

Most teams are responsible for multiple projects and they autonomously organize the work according to their capacity and skillset...

Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:54

So are teams aligned along tech stacks? Or market segments?

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:20

Including conversations around sharing knowledge, removing the bus factor etc.. Some teams are aligned along technology, some are aligned along the client (one large client with multiple initiatives), some are aligned along industry (financial domain knowledge for example)

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:25

we tried but didn't find feasible to have only one dimension to align along... and this flexibility works for us so far πŸ™‚

Florian Gysin (Adnovum, DevOps Evangelist, he/him)14:05:11

Makes a lot of sense. It would have been my first intuition to align along one dimension, but now that I think about it it’s probably a lot healthier to allow this flexibility in the system.

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mcico14:05:03

Would it make sense to organize to increase collaboration/communication within teams and reduce it outside of the team? So that teams get more independant.

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:55

Absolutely! We should strive for that: remove handoffs and dependencies to other teams.. I agree

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:20

@robert.ruzitschka every organization has its pace, and that's normal, when we feel we're a step ahead, we try to take the role of an "enabling team" and try to share good ideas and see if we can make a step ahead together

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Kresimir Musa14:05:14

The important thing is that there should be a will for change and transformation… so we embark on that journey together.

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Ben Grinnell - North Highland and DOES PC14:05:11

Love this talk @ikrnic, quite relevant to the talk on Sourcing I am giving. If you could convince the whole service industry to think like this from the top down the impact would be amazing

Ben Grinnell - North Highland and DOES PC14:05:11

Love this talk @ikrnic, quite relevant to the talk on Sourcing I am giving. If you could convince the whole service industry to think like this from the top down the impact would be amazing

Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:30

Thanks @ben.grinnell!!! It means a lot

Kresimir Musa14:05:46

This is where the Manifesto could come in handy :-)

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Scott Prugh (CTO - CSG) DOES Prog Committee14:05:24

Great talk @ikrnic

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:49

Thanks @scott.prugh and thanks for your inputs, those were precious!

Rudi van der Kaaden - TOPdesk14:05:08

Thanks for this talk Ivan!

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Boris Martinovic14:05:41

Thank you for the talk, although I am not personally in the service organization, I found the talk very insightful!

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Boris Martinovic14:05:17

Lot of the concepts you mentioned can definetely be applied to other org/team types (not in the same way, of course).

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Robert Ruzitschka - DevOps Guild Lead14:05:12

Thanks, Ivan - Nice. And I think we can have a conversation around the metrics topic :-D

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Ivan Krnic (Director of Engineering at CROZ)14:05:13

Very much looking forward to this Robert!! πŸ™‚

Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:05:00

🌟 Excited to introduce our next speakers, @pulak.a.agrawal and Fortune Barnard, here to present Shift Left Security in Ludicrous Mode 🌟

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Pulak - Accenture DevSecOps Practice Lead14:05:23

I have another member of our team @tejesh.nandyala as a participant , who made this all happen

Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)14:05:21

@pulak.a.agrawal what does Shift Left Security meant for you ? What were you able to achieve and what left to attain ?

Pulak - Accenture DevSecOps Practice Lead14:05:51

the BIGGEST thing was no change approval board/CAB and wait 6 weeks to speak to humans. This was "we trust the tools and our people"; GO !!.

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Anne Marie Cunningham14:05:38

this was very much the situation with my story earlier about vaccination :-)

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Pulak - Accenture DevSecOps Practice Lead14:05:32

yes , I would say as close to exact we can get within devolved administration :D

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Pulak - Accenture DevSecOps Practice Lead14:05:08

as for whats left to attain is scale.

Siddharth, NatWest Group, DevOps CoE (he/him)14:05:45

Failures or things that didn't worked ?

Pulak - Accenture DevSecOps Practice Lead14:05:59

@siddharth.pareek Anthos, the CMS, the Gitlab tool integration, the caching solution, the pen test failed .. so almost everything πŸ™‚ on actual failures leftover was that the anitvirus solution to be made enterprise version

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