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Reminder: The final day is starting now – opening remarks and then plenary talks! Join the conversation in #ask-the-speaker-plenary.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:07

Hey Everyone! Speaker here! 👋 Grateful to be a part of this community and super excited to be presenting today! Thanks a ton @genek, @tapabrata.pal, @annp and the program committee for helping through the process!

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:22

That’s ok. We did it wrong on the first pass at WM Logistics.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:00

I repeat to P1 that bowling lanes have 2 gutters. Both a re bad. :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:38

Env variability nightmares. Been there.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution16:10:23

:shopping_trolley: A warm welcome to @kapoor.vaidik, presenting Think Again Before Migrating to Kubernetes :shopping_trolley:

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:36

You mean K8s isn’t a silver bullet? 😄

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional16:10:11

The salesperson specifically said it was. Hmmpf.

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Derek Bissinger16:10:29

Infrastructure and Platform is important still

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:42

But, just AWS with your process of provisioning resources and deploying changes documented on a confluence page is also a platform

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:31

i really like how matthew skelton puts it - thinnest viable platform

Derek Bissinger17:10:44

I absolutely agree

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:26

K8s at the edge was important for leveling the snowflakes in WM distribution centers.

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:07

oh yeah. edge, heterogeneous infrastructure, multi-c* (i didnt say that)

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:41

We are currently working on an “easy button” for a K8s env that a sailor can deploy to a submarine with no K8s admin training. If it becomes unstable, hit the button and reboot.

Patrick S. Kelso16:10:35

I look forward to standing on your shoulders when you're done. I'm trying to hold of on K8s at the moment because frankly we don't have the knowledge/skills we would need to investigate when it goes sideways.

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:11

My company is. I jus watch in awe.

Derek Bissinger16:10:56

Pull through an edge that crosses an air/sea gap is a problem to solve

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:50

Yep. Ain’t all web apps to the cloud.

Joe Moretti - Synapse Wireless16:10:44

Chick-fil-A rolled out a 3-node K8s cluster to each of their restaurants a few years ago--it would be interesting to see how that has worked out over time.

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Skylar Rudolph16:10:34

Yes… this was a very good integration case study to operate in a hub-and-spoke model. Really enjoyed their presentations on this.

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Skylar Rudolph16:10:47


Skylar Rudolph16:10:34

Glad that we weren’t the only ones that stumbled on this

Josef Grossmann16:10:44

Agree, I would be interested in how it turned out! It doesn't look like their repo's of fleet management tools have been updated often in the last couple years

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)16:10:09

We've been trying to find people to ask more about this and how it has evolved...

Derek Bissinger16:10:07

Registry synchronization I know that pain!

Micah Miller16:10:22

The cognitive overload of trying to migrate to k8s is quite high. Is there a way to ease into it? As stated, running a self-managed k8s cluster isn’t ideal… it forces your team to learn everything at once to get any value out of it.

Justin Abrahms (eBay)16:10:55

eBay has a mechanism where we just moved all apps to containers but didn't give them access to any of the k8s stuff. The deploy group just "forklifted" their apps in conjunction with the language operators.

Justin Abrahms (eBay)16:10:05

The next step is/was to migrate people to more container-native workflows.

Jason A. Beranek16:10:14

Also can lead you into the trap of all the things you need to have before providing any value. You can find yourself moving down a "give a mouse a cookie" type route of "well, if you want to deploy I need XYZ services deployed"

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:24

even managed services still require you to make a lot of decisions. i have been inclining towards using services like ECS or opinionated kubernetes platforms that come as managed services

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Micah Miller16:10:09

Yes, thank you all for the feedback. I think we need to make sure we are creating (or refactoring) products in a container-first approach, then begin migrating workloads to see what works best for our orgs. We are already seeing so much of this being managed for us, that we may not have to worry about it for much longer… as long as our services are containerized

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:28

yaeh i think our lack of experience in the space made the journey slightly more painful. with experience, figuring out the path for full migration can be much easier than what we went through

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Damien Plunkett - Ramsey Solutions16:10:01

Was ECS ever considered for container orchestration? We made the shift several years ago to ECS and find the overhead of management/upgrades and the cognitive load on the team to be a lot less than K8s. I’m curious on your thoughts of EKS over ECS?

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:08

we didnt. and we wanted to avoid any kind of AWS specific ways of working. at the time we were actively avoiding things like cloudformation as well

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:32

in retrospect, i feel ECS would have been a much better choice

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional16:10:40

LOL, I first read that as “cloudformation hell” 😂

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:46

but also at the same time (and at least for us), we were at a point where we were considering to migrate to azure. it was almost done until it wasnt. so i am really not sure if there was a right decision there. in the end, what we did worked out for us

Damien Plunkett - Ramsey Solutions16:10:27

That makes sense, I would have likely made the same choice considering those circumstances. Thanks for the response!

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 116:10:01

At Platform One we've worked with EKS and helped deploy some of our products on top of their clusters. ECS is a different story. Customer demand wasn't there to investigate, at depth, leveraging ECS. Most customers come with a hybrid cloud or air-gap infrastructure making it difficult to leverage ECS for orchestration. They decide to go with k8s for the flexibility

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 116:10:48

usually we see RKE2, Konvoy, OCP4, or EKS requested at the orchestration layer

Derek Bissinger16:10:07

Awesome topic! Well done

Pedro Jordan16:10:27

Thanks ! could you please share where we can follow you again ?

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant16:10:55

thanks folks! i am around all day today and would love to talk more cloud and kubernetes with you all!

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Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)16:10:14

Eeeyore - I'm at one of those picnic tables in gather if people want to join up there for follow-on discussion

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution16:10:00

✈️ Excited to hear from @bissingd and @msnyder who will share, Cloud-native DevSecOps at Supersonic Speeds (well...getting there) ✈️

Mark Peters16:10:59

Excited to hear from a "Bone" Session

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 116:10:45

Excited to hear from our sister effort on the 309th!

Mark Peters16:10:01

Hill AFB! I was there like 20 years ago, back when they had Vipers instead of F-35

Derek Bissinger16:10:18

Welcome everyone!

Mark Peters16:10:23

I don't get the navy pilots...

Derek Bissinger16:10:23

F-35 is a fun platform to talk about

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)16:10:32

I can tell who’s ex-Navy every-time I land.

Mark Peters16:10:11

Yep, they are a lot harder on the brakes...

Mark Peters16:10:33

Is SKI camp tied to the Platform piece?

Derek Bissinger17:10:44

We are in the party bus, And are now looking at our own environment

Mark Peters17:10:52

I was chatting with @bryan.finster486 the other day, he might argue, but isn't the goal a common DoD platform with env available to the individual programs?

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:10:04

There is an argument to make for having good platforms that focus on core delivery problems but all have the same principles. It’s a different problem with DoD that with an enterprise like Walmart. Scale and complexity are much larger. I’m still pondering.

Derek Bissinger17:10:11

Maybe In the weapon platform world of embedded there is no common infrastructure or platform for that I hate to say it but the metal we throw at the enemy is the weak point in my opinion We got stuff in the cloud for days however the butts in seats manning the weapon systems need to have awesome also

Mark Peters20:10:20

Just like with K8s, can have metal different while the underlying code remains the same. Laser guided bombs are only the sensor, same with GPS, no reason not to build commnon code

Mark Peters20:10:11

And, I don't think the DoD has a Scale problem, they actually deliver much less than the typical industry, I think it is an authorities and culture problem'

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 116:10:46

You're too generous. I've seen "Years" melt down to hours from this transformation.

Derek Bissinger16:10:40

I think it is awesome that I never mentioned DevOps, but rather focused on the constraints in our value stream and the result was a DevOps process

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Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)16:10:54

what do you mean @tiny.mpetersii - are we tied in with P1?

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:31

we had something very similar in automotive

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Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:36

The current architecture is leveraging the P1 managed service Dev environment for the OFP development team; in upcoming iterations we are working with other OFP development environments to pull into the Lightning architecture and deploy out to the aircraft;

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Mark Peters17:10:37

So you are going to break away from the P1 model to develop an independent DevSecOps for the F-35

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:48

we're working with the 309th to establish a tailored architecture that will support across weapon systems and environments; leveraging as much of P1 as possible, but recognizing that the Big Bang core needs additional services and architecting to support the embedded systems depoyment

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:10:40

“They don’t understand it. They just test it”

Derek Bissinger17:10:39

Hardware in the loop and simulator in the loop test requirements

Derek Bissinger17:10:33

Also hardware integration lab and system integration lab

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:01

that's one area where we would love to jam on - how are other sectors with the embedded SW working through this

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 117:10:44

Automotive must have some fun use cases. OTA updates, leveraging ML for ADAS systems, etc. (+1 to jamming)

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:17

anyone interested in making a trek to Ogden sometime?

Mark Peters17:10:48

I like Ogden, Maybe when there is snow down in Park city

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:17

head thru the canyon to Snow Basin, right there

Mark Peters17:10:49

When we at Hill, 15 minutes from bed to skiing at Snow Basin

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:04

did you have a lot of branches?

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:27

yah; that's a big part of this transformation effort - how do we leverage the virtual testing to limit the amount of testing executed through the HIL/SIL - because that's a major bottleneck with very limited capacity

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:16

we had this calibration function on the RHS that tweaks the parameters for things like torque

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Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:15

omg - I lived this slide

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:47

waterfall in sprints only works as a drinking game

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Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:09

had to explain what an mvp was like a million times

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Jason A. Beranek17:10:48

most valuable programmer?

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:00

@chris.gallivan421 I would love to bring in some of the Tasktop capabilities into the value stream architecture at this effort as it expands -

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Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:27

system view is very powerful

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:11

we just helped Qlik get FedRAMPed recently; it's a fun process

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:10:41

Yeah, I’ve chatted with Mik about it.

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:14

setting up at the fire pit at the top of the map if anyone wants to join

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Mark Peters17:10:39

10-15 minutes, following up on another call

Mark Peters17:10:49

Happy to chat

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 117:10:39

Any solutions on the horizon for burning to a disc/mailing it in to the lab for integration?

Derek Bissinger17:10:30

We are looking at bringing the network together and setup a pull system

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 117:10:32

Nice, would love to learn from that! I talk to too many people who have a nice agile approach to development...until it comes to the point where containers need to be pushed to prod

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)17:10:09

They forget it includes actually delivering to the end-user, not just writing things.

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 117:10:11

It's tough, seems like there's constraints from the tech available. AWS has some solutions that are interesting but that's AWS

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:23

that's how we update vehicles, drive to the dealer to get the disc 😞

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:02

some limited deployments

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:28

we sell millions of end points

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:47

believe it or not, the data charges for updates are massive

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:13

along with just lack of capability

Derek Bissinger17:10:25

I know that well

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 117:10:30

That's very interesting, I didn't know cost was a huge factor.

Talha Siddique - Product Owner - DoD Platform 117:10:36

I think that's how my Lincoln maps got updates... However I do think some UI updates were pushed out OTA to enable features like CarPlay.

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:10

they try to leverage home wifi

Josef Grossmann17:10:02

Do you have any restrictions on what types of software you've been able to apply this approach to, e.g. software that performs Safety Critical functions?

Derek Bissinger17:10:54

We are starting on mission systems But we still require flight safety testing

Josef Grossmann17:10:14

Thanks! That makes sense.

Derek Bissinger17:10:44

The best tests show isolation, and prove it, from safety critical systems

Dave Hogg (Leonardo)17:10:03

Great cake analogy

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Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:23

it's a significant shift - for the organization used to issuing contracts fo fully programmed, and "solutioned" contracts

Mark Peters17:10:04

Didn't think A-10 use software...

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:46

yeah, and they're getting some modernization and updates very soon

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:38

getting this into the A-10 will be magical.

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:33

most of our tools were windows based, which caused another challenge

Derek Bissinger17:10:20

We live and breathe Linux

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Dave Hogg (Leonardo)17:10:31

Great talk 👍

Chris Gallivan (Tasktop)17:10:42

great job - inspiring

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Derek Bissinger17:10:49

Thank you for all the questions

Joe Arrowood17:10:50

Good talk, and good work!

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Mark Peters17:10:52

Enjoyed it very much

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Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:58

thanks for joining us for this.

Josef Grossmann17:10:07

Great talk, thank you!

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Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:21

and we're kicking off the start of the birthday cake phase next week 🙂

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Trac Bannon (Speaker)17:10:48

cake? someone said cake?

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)17:10:38

@bissingd thanks for letting me join you on this!

Ann Perry - IT Revolution18:10:00

🎉 Let's say hello to our next speakers, @cheryl.crupi and @ronica who will present: The Miserable Tier 🎉

Cheryl Crupi18:10:40

Hi everyone … Cheryl and Ronica here! We are excited to hear your feedback on our talk! Please share your stories and questions in Slack. We would love to know. The things we describe in this talk … are you seeing the same in your organizations?

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:27

@cheryl.crupi and @ronica investigate on why SVPs are literally the most miserable tier!! 🎉

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)18:10:06

@genek I know you've been out to Kessel Run, we need to find a way to get you out to Ogden to see SkiCAMP

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:20

OMG, yes!! I remember meeting Lt Gen John Thompson, and I was so delighted that I might be able to shadow him for a day at one of these amazing orgs. Then COVID happened. Can I reach out to you and let’s talk? I can’t tell you how excited at the possibility of doing this!!!

Mike Snyder - Speaker (Oteemo)18:10:53

absolutely. I will email you

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:44

OMG. They interview SVPs to understand to what extent they are miserable, and why. Love it!

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Christine Hudson18:10:47

So it's lonely at the top... but it's lonelier in the middle?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:12

How many SVPs were you able to interview, @cheryl.crupi and @ronica? This such important work!

Cheryl Crupi18:10:18

Lacking a strong team 1 makes it lonely anywhere!

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Cheryl Crupi18:10:14

Formally for this talk over 10 … though it represents conversations with 100s

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:09

Yes…we drew on stories and experiences from over many years. While going deep through interviews.

Raghu Tumuluri18:10:21

it can get lonely if there is no inclusion, no sense of belonging, trust, empathy, empowered and doesnt understand why Agile transformation is so important

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:10

@cheryl.crupi @ronica If you were able to see the Target presentation with @brett.craig SVP Digital (formerly SVP Merch Capabilities), did you notice differences in how he showed up vs. the miserable SVPs you interviewed? I’d love to compare/contrast.

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Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:47

I didn’t see it yet, but I’ll watch for sure, @genek

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)14:10:08

Also curious to hear your thoughts after seeing the video... and even more if you (@ronica) reach out to interview @brett.craig

Cheryl Crupi18:10:40

Striking also that those we interviewed specifically for this talk are literally from all over the world.

Cheryl Crupi18:10:00

Yes, we’ve seen inspiring examples in several talks at this conference :)

Nicole Forsythe18:10:03

For mid managers, isn’t giving credit potentially harmful as middle managers need to prove their individual worth?

Nicole Forsythe18:10:51

I’ve often found this level is trying to prove something and aren’t incentivised to do this.

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:08

That is part of the culture I’d like to see changed.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:04

In fact, it’d be interesting to identify these characteristics among all the SVP DevOps Enterprise video talks, and code for absence/presence of.

Justin Abrahms (eBay)18:10:25

Hoping to see a rubric in here around how folks can evaluate where they are on the miserable spectrum & specific steps to remediate.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:35

I’d love to help on this above: ^^^. let me know if you’re interested.

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Cheryl Crupi18:10:16

@nicole.forsythe - yes, that is exactly the point. In environments that are competitive, or even stack rank, giving credit is a transformative and courageous act! We hope this habit can contribute to changing the system

Nicole Forsythe18:10:06

Did you look at things like gender in this work? I notice women do this and are then much less likely to be promoted as this kind of behavior isn’t always promotable.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:01

Nice. Modeling what appreciation looks like. 🙂

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Cheryl Crupi18:10:08

@genek - yes that would be awesome!

Justin Abrahms (eBay)18:10:21

Thank you for having a more real/live feeling talk!!

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Nicole Forsythe18:10:25

Love the cat moment ❤️

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:26

(a couple of things like that made it into my videos, too! 🙂

Cheryl Crupi18:10:47

Real life - keep the bloopers in :)

Nicole Forsythe18:10:10

I’m a director level and a lot of this is speaking to me - is SVP described as the level just below the C-suite?

Cheryl Crupi18:10:48

Yes … we are thinking those senior execs that report directly to the c-suite. The titles can vary by organization.

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:03

@nicole.forsythe ihow would you describe your level?

Nicole Forsythe18:10:37

Pressurized middle, a la Jon Smart. I’m a director, but there are a great many levels between me and the c-suite

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:54

Hmmm….More for us to explore!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:53

I have recently fallen in love with this term from Dr. @ronwestrum — the technical maestro: • High energy • High standards • Great in the large • Great in the small (so they can ask good questions) • Loves walking the floor (gemba) I love this model b/c it has such high explanatory power — explains the great orgs I’ve seen, and the most horrible orgs I’ve seen. Just curious: do what extent to the miserable SVPs you interview rate high on all five of these attributes? @cheryl.crupi @ronica

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:23

Hmmm…I’ll have to think about that…The first one who comes to mind definitely fits that description

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:41

He’s miserable because his tendencies are stifled by his peers, or in the peer setting

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:57

ahhh.. First Team problem…

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:43

Go to the place where the work happens

Ray Padron18:10:05

Invest time in gemba AKA misery loves company!

Justin Abrahms (eBay)18:10:23

aha! gemba = japanese, not an acronym. 🙂

Justin Abrahms (eBay)18:10:47

> Gemba (現場, also spelt less commonly as genba) is a japanese term meaning "the real place." Japanese police could refer to a crime scene as gemba, and TV reporters often refer to themselves as reporting live from gemba.

Nicole Forsythe18:10:04

there’s a lot of great writing on them from all over the net

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:54

(SVP might not be the technical maestro, but have one — my deep suspicion is that technical maestros will have great outcomes and high job satisfaction, and also their teams)

Nicole Forsythe18:10:33

I wish I could remember where this came from, but I often chew on the sentiment “When you go into upper management, you sacrifice your mind, thinking, and time to meetings and only meetings.”

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:55

it’s interesting to hear how often @brett.craig described interactions with his peers, their willingness to give him a chance to try something new in Fresh Foods, their skepticism, but eventually their appreciation. Definitely indicates the presence of things described here — cc @lucas.rettig

Luke Rettig - Target18:10:22

well i was on another track… now i’m interested 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:38

I.e., he had a First Team.

Nicole Forsythe18:10:02

Target leaders do this well from my time there. For sure!

Ray Padron18:10:18

I really like this metaphor of Maslow's model. Less of a pyramid (which Maslow never created) and more of a sailboat. You need to feel secure first - only then can you grow.

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Cheryl Crupi18:10:35

At the end of the talk we invite you to share your stories with us. A

Cheryl Crupi18:10:04

Are you seeing the same thing we are? If you try one of the habits we propose, please share will us how it goes. LinkedIn is a great way to connect and share.

Justin Abrahms (eBay)18:10:20

I think one thing that would be helpful in understanding this is something like case studies. "Here's a scenario. Here's what they're doing wrong. Here's a different scenario w/ someone who's doing it right", etc.

Christine Hudson18:10:40

I love this idea.

Nicole Forsythe18:10:35

One of my more amusing direct supports always says of our work “This job would be so easy if it weren’t for the people.” 😆

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:58

Thank you @cheryl.crupi and @ronica!!!

Ronica Roth - (she/her)18:10:23

Thank you, all, for the engagement!

Nicole Forsythe18:10:21

Indeed, really liked the invitations to practice! Thanks @cheryl.crupi and @ronica.

Cheryl Crupi18:10:32

Thank you all for watching the talk … and for your ideas and stories :)

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution18:10:00

👏:skin-tone-3: A warm welcome to @paula.louise.kennedy who will present, Crossing the Platform Gap 👏:skin-tone-3:

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Andy Nelson18:10:31

👋 @paula.louise.kennedy - looking forward to it

Paula Kennedy18:10:32

Hello everyone, so happy to be part of this event. Let me know if you have any questions or want to chat


Whoohoo.. @paula.louise.kennedy - Cognitive load 🙂

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Team Topologies - 100%, YES YES YES

Paula Kennedy19:10:32

It's an awesome book...and Matthew and Manuel are very smart and lovely people

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Courtney Kissler19:10:57

I have it sitting on my desk - reference it often!

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BTW, @paula.louise.kennedy did you publish TeamAPI as per their recommendation. What efforts are taken for reducing the cognitive load? example documentation, code repo, service catalogue etc?

Paula Kennedy19:10:09

we've been working on a product that we think can help with this. It's a framework for building platforms that enables clear service boundaries between the platform and SA teams

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Courtney Kissler19:10:40

too funny @lbmkrishna - that's the page I have bookmarked!

upvotepartyparrot 2

I recently came across as DevX platform by Spotify - wow I think that will be so good to rollout in complex enterprises

Luke Rettig - Target19:10:57

This is great @paula.louise.kennedy. we are testing something similar. I decided to call it as our Common Components team because the term platform was interpreted in so many different ways. Very much resonating and i’m at the edge of my seat here

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Paula Kennedy19:10:44

you're spot on that platform is an overloaded term....

Luke Rettig - Target19:10:45

Make their “service easy to consume” ❤️. our teams motto is making their component the “easy and obvious choice”

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I recently said it typical Enterprise and cloud platforms: Provisioning VM in on-prem environment - 2 weeks; In Enterprise Cloud Platform : 6 Weeks 🙂 Imagine the cognitive load of filling the platform request, security, answering all the questions and complexity 😞

Paula Kennedy19:10:45

yep....and imagine how much time would be saved if the teams could self-serve what they need when they need it!

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@nicolefv during 2019 DOES preso and DORA report did mention NIST standards and DORA finding about Cloud Adoption and only small % are doing that "self-service";

Dipesh Bhatia19:10:50

But what about end to end (E2E) 10 services, does the platform as a product do that? or just local components

Paula Kennedy19:10:08

the goal is that by applying product management practices to your internal platform, you provide the services and components that the teams need...

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:03

“sunshine and rainbows for devs” 🌈 :unicorn_face: 🎉

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Luke Rettig - Target19:10:33

which actually means adoption with limited complaints

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:01

Reminds me of LEGO Movie: “I’m feeling something… like Unikitty feeling “opposite of happiness” turning into Rage Kitty.

Paula Kennedy19:10:09

(sad that there's no Unikitty slack emoji!)

Luke Rettig - Target19:10:15

vanity success measure: good engineer X says “yeah its fine for what its trying to do”

Luke Rettig - Target19:10:27

instead of “i should build something a little bit better”


100% - What internal platform teams often miss to see this;

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:33

Wonderful stats, @paula.louise.kennedy!! Love it!

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We need people working together and working against each other.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant19:10:20

Great stats! Reason and motivation to keep going on and figure it out!

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In one of my recent conversation with my friend at different org, mentioned that - the Dev's where boycotting their internal cloud platform - complaining it is not ready. (Internal cloud platform built on public cloud)


Awesome Talk @paula.louise.kennedy

Paula Kennedy19:10:49

Thanks for all the feedback and interaction @lbmkrishna

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:02

Thank you, @paula.louise.kennedy!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:46

It was hilarious to me that part of the NSA DevX story began when a dev group forked GitLab, and got in way over their head. 🙂 cc @emoshmosh @vmshook I suspect ^^^ from @lucas.rettig will resonate with them!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:46

It was hilarious to me that part of the NSA DevX story began when a dev group forked GitLab, and got in way over their head. 🙂 cc @emoshmosh @vmshook I suspect ^^^ from @lucas.rettig will resonate with them!

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Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER19:10:10

the we can but should we resonates with me All The Time

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Ann Perry - IT Revolution19:10:00

🌟 We're excited to introduce @troykoss and @courtney who will present, Chaos and Reliability: A Surprising Friendship in the Enterprise 🌟

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:41

Woo! Ready for some chaos! (ok, in the preso, not in my personal life) 😬

Courtney Nash19:10:09

I have two young kids and a dog, my personal life is also chaos. 🙂

Virginia Laurenzano NSA/MARFORCYBER19:10:56

IKR. And puppies are coming, too. What's more chaotic than chaos?

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:58

Cynefin gives us unknown unknowns. Chaotic chaotics? 😆

Courtney Nash19:10:53

loki more

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:33

So wonderful to hear the theory of practice of chaos engineering from @courtney and @troykoss ! 🎉 🎉 🎉

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:28

Congrats on your “new” role at Verica!! I was so delighted to hear the news!!!

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:40

FWIW, that 2011 post from Netflix when they revealed the existence of the Simian Army was one of the most mind-blowing things I’ve ever read — like, it seemed so preposterous, irresponsible… like, maybe even immoral!

Courtney Nash19:10:54

Same! I’d just started covering DevOps at O’Reilly and I was like “Oh no, what have I gotten myself into?”

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:19

Q: what was it like moving onto Kubernetes? A: we were novices. 😱 😆

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)19:10:25

Vilas tells be they could take down all but 9 services and still support people choosing and watching movies.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:13

When I learned Kubernetes: literally I spent a couple of hours with @jwillis teaching me. brain melted. And when I tried to do something simple by myself, I literally didn’t know what to type or even what to Google for. Most difficult thing I ever had to learn.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:21

I tell clients K8s is 1000 more knobs you can turn.

Courtney Nash19:10:16

Mostly still novices I’ve found! Current slide in fact. 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:45

(not to mention that logging and cron don’t exist in kubernetes. I learned that at 3am, thinking this was the dumbest idea I ever had. 🙂

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:58

[looking around] Is it just me? 😆

Courtney Nash19:10:22

Ahhh good, we’ve gotten to the goats slide

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:30

“Chaos engineering introduces more chaos”

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:53

I’ll take chaos at 3 p.m. when I’m awake and at my desk over chaos at 3 a.m. any day of the week.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:58

PS: @bryan.finster486 I’ve always wanted to ask, but forget to ask you! k8s on U-2 planes: that’s for imaging, mission, analysis systems right? (not flight control?). If so, makes so much sense in hindsight!!!

Courtney Nash19:10:35

I love Troy’s story here

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:43

@troykoss Is this increasing blue area good news or bad news? 🙂

Courtney Nash19:10:12

Troy is on a plane right now sadly.

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Courtney Nash19:10:17

Using Chaos Engineering to set your SLOs is a really interesting use case

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:18

Ha! So glad you’re here, @courtney — I’m assuming that this graph is good news, yes? Still within SLO budget, on glide path, on target, keep taking risks! 🙂

Courtney Nash19:10:44

Yes that’s my understanding! We didn’t really talk about the SLO graph content itself.

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:04

😆 I’m ADD when it comes to graphs.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:14

needs a pie chart emoji reaction

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:54

It really blew me away about to what extent Netflix thought about things in terms of hypotheses, and to what extent things will behave in the expected ways. What a wonderful and active community that’s blossomed around it!

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)19:10:57

I learned a lot when Vilas Veerargrhaven joined Walmart CD platform from the Chaos team and I tricked him into being my mentor. :D

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Courtney Nash19:10:10

“Don’t be that goat”

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:17

Uncanny, @courtney — hypotheses!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:23

@courtney What was your biggest surprise in your conversations with @troykoss?

Courtney Nash19:10:55

Oh great question!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:28

“don’t fix things that aren’t broken”

Courtney Nash19:10:04

Well other than finding out that we’re both huge botany/plant nerds, it was the really clear alignment between Chaos Engineering principles and SRE principles. Not surprising in hindsight, but I hadn’t really thought of it that way before.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:07

How about, verify things that you know are not supposed to be broken?

Trac Bannon (Speaker)19:10:12

Context, context, context! Great Message @ckissler

Courtney Nash19:10:38

Oh please do summon @ckissler here!

Courtney Kissler19:10:45


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Courtney Nash19:10:57

This just made my week

Courtney Kissler19:10:10

Miss you my friend!

Courtney Nash19:10:26

Me too! :dancer:

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:42

Fascinating — totally makes sense to me, though! @cleng is an SRE Engineering Lead at Google, and co-presented with @jpetoff Google SRE Training Director, and infused throughout their talk was about understanding deeply the system. As @cleng said: “you never truly understand a system until you see it burst into flames [in production” — which I utterly love. (The best firefighters can think like an arson. 😆 Sorry, I keep laughing at my own joke. 🙂

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Love this. So true. That’s when you find out if you understand the system AND (if not) how it really works.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:21

When you go over critical Courtney levels?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:26

Spooky. @chawklady summoning incantation worked! 😆

Courtney Nash19:10:45

I need that to work in real life too!

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Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)19:10:09

My first DevOps mentor, @ckissler

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:42

Summoning my inner-Leng: “you never know how good the fire extinguishers will work unless you douse the building in gasoline, turn off the water main, and throw a match into it. Amirght?”

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair19:10:50

THANK YOU SO MUCH, @courtney!!! So good to see you again, and keep kicking butt and all your amazing work!!! 🎉

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Courtney Kissler19:10:07

@courtney is the BEST!!

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Courtney Nash19:10:44

Thank you all!

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Ah! So sorry for my travel overlap. Fam things. I am SO fortunate to co present with @courtney! Thanks a ton for covering Q&A! Hope everyone enjoyed the session. Saw some reallllly awesome things in #DOES21


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