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Molly Coyne (Sponsorship Director / ITREV)11:05:13

Welcome Sonatype's team for our next session's Q&A Thank you!

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Vlad Ukis11:05:25

are the slides of "DevSecOps Security Champions and How to Implement Them Successfully" on dropbox?

Mitun Zavery11:05:56

@vladyslav.ukis Yes they will be, if is there something specific you would like to discuss PM me directly and we can discuss.

Molly Coyne (Sponsorship Director / ITREV)11:05:02

@vladyslav.ukis I just pinged you with the link in the #faq channel as well.

Mitun Zavery11:05:42

"Delivery above Security!" love the reactive image to go with it. Security needs to be built into the Software Supply Chain and allows for proactive views into the Product being developed.

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff11:05:06

I see 37 watching live! Post comments and questions here for Sonatype.

Lloyd P11:05:58

Robbie what approaches have you tried for getting interest from pers to step up as security champions from business areas that might have some friction towards security culture. I’ve found it pretty easy to get interest from tech-savvy devs and those interested in security but struggle to foster interest from areas with less knowledge/interest in security

Mitun Zavery12:05:30

@lloyd.passingham It has been an interesting journey, providing ownership and guide rails help immensely, but also trying to reduce all risk to 0 is a fools errand. The way to bring more parts of the business in has worked well by providing visibility into what the issues are and what remediation steps to take. Parts of the business have been hounded historically by a list of vulns/risk, this is off putting hence the need to contextualise the problem and make it personal.

Lloyd P12:05:54

Cheers Robbie! great chat πŸ™‚

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Sohan Philip12:05:08

The slide had 6 approaches to convince management.

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Molly Coyne (Sponsorship Director / ITREV)12:05:52

✨A warm welcome to @james.hunter & @vkelkar for our next session's Q&A .Thank you!

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James Hunter12:05:19

Thank you @mollyc

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Vick Kelkar12:05:38

Glad to be here.

Alex Broderick-Forster, IT Revolution, Event Staff12:05:18

If you’re out there live, the speakers are available here for questions and comments!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:05:43

So true @james.hunter #Flow #Zone #Impact - all awesome but even more so if they have the magic of #psychological-safety too

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)12:05:12

how do you measure mental health and happiness of a team?

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AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)12:05:54

Can you share more about how AI is used in GitLab Ultimate? What benefits are you seeing?

Tim Wyatt12:05:14

ask them? look for trends like drop in team performance?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:05:52

Team happiness and psychological safety are measurable once you understand the components and behaviours going into the healthy dynamic of the team

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James Hunter12:05:23

Great question. I started by asking for subjective opinion across my own teams.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:05:54

Mental Health isn't a team aggregated measurement unless we add together the health of the individuals but the more PS there is in a team the more positive effect it has on their personal wellbeing

James Hunter12:05:34

After asking the teams I then looked at performance metrics but that requires numerous assumptions to draw any conclusion.

James Hunter12:05:13

More recently I have been looking at analysing comments and text within code using NLP to see if I can identify any trends.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:05:33

Would love to compare notes on what and how you asked @james.hunter - dropped you a note on LI

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AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)12:05:37

I've heard of the NPS (Net promoter Score)

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech12:05:07

IMO that's the most overrated of all human measurements - means nothing really

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)12:05:57

interesting.. It was mentioned several times in the Accelerate book

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)12:05:34

so would you measure with surveys or rely on personal connections and "managers' reporting up the chain?

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)12:05:06

what are some "components and behaviours going into the healthy dynamic of the team"?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech13:05:30

Apologies, I missed this @logankd - we measure if they are Flexible, if they have strong emotional bonds, if they Speak Up, if they are Courageous, if they are Resilient, if they are Learning together and on the flip side if they refrain from Impression Management

Vick Kelkar12:05:26

Natural Language Processing (NLP)

Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble12:05:47

your audio is coming through

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Tim B12:05:45

always good to get a sneak peek behind the scenes

Molly Coyne (Sponsorship Director / ITREV)12:05:30

πŸ“£ Welcome @stephen who will be moderating for today's VendorDome Q&A between @brianf, @twalker and Josh Stella!

Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble12:05:54

your behind the scenes audio is live

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Kim Wallis12:05:56

You are live πŸ˜„

Raji Natt12:05:17

Thanks for joining the VendorDome! Post your questions here and we'll pose them live!

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Jim Moverley12:05:41

audio seems to be live on the channels

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair12:05:00

Hey, @stephen @brianf @twalker! So glad you’re here!

Bernard Voos (FedEx)12:05:23

Hi Vendordome! Where do you see DAST going in the future, specifically scaling it and speeding up the run times?

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:43

PS: thank you for helping create and maintain Maven Central, @brianf! cc @arne.brasseur @mitesh

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Arne Brasseur (CEO - Gaiwan, he/him)13:05:33

Thanks indeed! we rely on it every day, together with Clojars.

Mitesh (DOES Event Staff / Engineer at Gaiwan)13:05:48

Thanks, life without maven central wouldn't be easy πŸ˜πŸ™Œ

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:03

β€œwe need to protect the car, and also protect the factory” β€”Β @brianf

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James Simon13:05:44

How do you close those gaps in Dev without killing innovation?

Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)13:05:28

It seems like an impossible task when you look at the number of dependencies some (even mid-sized) projects work with. While tools are definitely getting better, there’s no way for tooling to catch all the supply chain vectors. Is this just a question of hardening various security layers?

Ax Sharma13:05:46

Definitely. Although, I think we could compare this to a defense-in-depth approach, every security measure helps strengthen the supply-chain but no single measure may be a 100% effective by itself... be it an application firewall blocking suspicious dependencies (outright malware or dependency confusion PoC packages), or just any tooling scanning dependency for vulnerabilities. I've written extensively about these real-world examples.

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Inderjit Kaur13:05:56

What kind of security automation has to be applied to a Jenkins Server and Build servers?

James Simon13:05:29

For cloud are AWS native tools sufficient for security

Vlad Ukis13:05:50

Enjoying the panel a lot!

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Sophie de Malet Roquefort13:05:00

What type of security vulnerability detection can you automate for embedded systems?

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)13:05:06

Thanks for your answers. 😊 Really illuminating. Follow-up question, in case there’s time: @twalker mentioned that it’s important to at least know which vulnerabilities you might have in your chain/stack. I totally agree. Do you see any convergence with the practice of observability in terms of taking a stab at looking into unknown unknowns…maybe observing and querying security-related events in real-time?

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)13:05:22

Lift and shift = moving from koi pond to acid bath filled with sharks with lasers.

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Filip Berlikowski, CTO13:05:38

> less than 7 minutes from a service going public to the moment it being scanned for vulnerabilities Can you share a source for that?

James Simon13:05:03

Would be interested to hear what each of you see as your products strengths

Raji Natt13:05:58

The VendorDome Panel are loving these questions, keep them coming

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:59

β€œacid bath with sharks with lasers” πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

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Inderjit Kaur13:05:09

Thanks, Brian. That is a new perspective for me. It helps.

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Kim Weins (Anchore)13:05:01

Great to hear the mention of Platform One and Iron Bank. We've been working embedded in P1 for a while.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:48

Great shoutout for Platform One, @bryan.finster486!

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)13:05:20

OMG! I'm in standup and missed it!

Tracy Walker13:05:57

I got your back @bryan.finster486 πŸ™‚

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair13:05:16

β€œWe want people to be safer and happier” β€” @brianf cc @jonathansmart1

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Saket Kulkarni, Coach, Capgemini (he/him)13:05:52

Thanks again for a great panel!

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Tracy Walker13:05:16

Platform One may have the best logo/patch in the land!

Molly Coyne (Sponsorship Director / ITREV)13:05:05

🌟So happy to have @robert.greville1,@natasha.n.wright and @david.ward for our next session's Q&A. Thank you!

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Robert Greville13:05:24

Here to answer any questions you may have πŸ™‚

Natasha Wright [she/her]13:05:03

Happy to take any questions anyone has!

Tim B14:05:09

Can totally relate to the story so far πŸ™‚

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Pulak - Accenture DevSecOps Practice Lead14:05:30

I call them Macroliths πŸ™‚

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Dave Ward14:05:07

For me - Microlith = Microservice + Monolith

Henry Eshel - LaunchDarkly14:05:26

LaunchDarkly is super excited to partner with Vodafone'sΒ,Β, and Natasha Wright from Accenture, for their release acceleration journey. If you have any questions about LaunchDarkly feel free to come by our Slack channel! #xpo-launchdarkly

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Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)14:05:52

"driving towards the culture of inner sourcing"

Pulak - Accenture DevSecOps Practice Lead14:05:51

@natasha.n.wright did you experiment with any "lets take this small service and only flip that" to break the microlith ?

Dave Ward14:05:25

Unfortunately the flip process was too time consuming to run for just one service, so this wasn’t ever going to be a scalable approach.

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Summer Lyons14:05:36

The explanation at the beginning felt like you were explaining my exact current situation. And we have been looking at LD but this talk is showing me even more ways that LD can improve things.

Dave Ward14:05:31

We really hope this has been helpful for you @lyonssr! Do get in touch with any of us if you have any questions following the talk.

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley14:05:35

this engineering walkthrough is GREAT @natasha.n.wright

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley14:05:24

are teams able to deploy their own flags? or you let them submit PR but the push to LD is done by platform team?

Robert Greville14:05:47

Teams can handle this themselves, within teams we have custom roles - Release Manager is the person who can deploy to PROD - but this role can be applied to members in teams or in over-arching roles (such as release, scrum etc.)

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley14:05:06

do you need to have any process to sign off flipping flags?

Robert Greville14:05:33

Trusted individuals - there is no technical barrier to applying a flag other than having the correct permissions.


Gus β€” We do have some new features that allow for an approvals workflow that limits who can activate flags.

Henry Eshel - LaunchDarkly14:05:46

As well as an audit log so that you can see a history of who made what changes πŸ™‚

Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley14:05:49 process of onboarding with you guys already...just interested if they same need on vodafone side. our regulators arent there yet with trusted individuals unfortunately 😞

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Gus Paul - Morgan Stanley14:05:37

one more from do you manage testing when there are multiple active flags?

Henry Eshel - LaunchDarkly14:05:43

Hey Gus, I'm sure Rob has some thoughts on this, but this blog post on the topic may be interesting for you as well

Alex Ryan Burnett14:05:29

Love the use of being able to toggle flags on/off via Slack! Makes life easier! πŸ‘

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Tim B14:05:33

Thanks - great session

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Molly Coyne (Sponsorship Director / ITREV)14:05:55

πŸ‘‹:skin-tone-2: Welcome @justin7orbry and @adrian.jones for our next session's Q&A. Thank you!

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Helen Beal14:05:35

OOoh out of manufacturing into digital - I am ON THE EDGE OF MY SEAT!

Erik Sackman14:05:41

are the slides form this presentation missing on github or am i overlooking something πŸ˜‡

Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:45

thanks Molly. Hope you find the session valuable!

Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:16

@erik.sackman we decided to go without slides for a change. Hope it works. We want edot focus on the conversation, not the material

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Helen Beal14:05:39

Can I mention the Value Stream Management Consortium (should be ok - Tasktop are a founder member!)

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)14:05:08

I blame starting in manufacturing for my flow journey into digital as well!!

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Helen Beal14:05:08

Did Justin tell John he was wrong?!

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Helen Beal14:05:40

@justin7orbry What's your definition of a value stream? I try and distil it to "Anything that delivers a product or a service"

Helen Beal14:05:40

@justin7orbry What's your definition of a value stream? I try and distil it to "Anything that delivers a product or a service"

Andy Farmer - Tasktop11:05:33

A common way that I have seen is similar but slightly different - "A value stream is all the work done in order to deliver value to a customer"

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Katharine Chajka (Tasktop)14:05:00

"moving from activity thinking to flow thinking"

Helen Beal14:05:30

Definition of done moved from 'I did my job' to 'our customer realized value'?

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Helen Beal14:05:02

Time to market or time to value?

Justin watts17:05:53

They should be the same

Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)14:05:19

"Compressing the time from Idea to cash"

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:41

Time to learning

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:29

"A system of local optimums is not an optimum system", Eli Goldratt

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Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble14:05:20

@justin7orbry How do you overcome the business saying things like "prove it works before I change my business model" ? Thinking specifically here about where you mentioned failing agile transformations due to business goals/measures not changing

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Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:23

you're right proving is important - proving the importance of focussing on flow, leading to improved delivery. That needs to be proven ...then scaled.

Sam Wiskow - Procter Gamble16:05:24

I'm finding lately that there can be a disconnect on the role of management and organisational leads and where they should play. Often I see a strong focus on the tooling instead of the background core business processes and organisation redesign. Then we end up in a half transformed state. Is there a good way to get org leaders to partner on the transformation, offering up organisation redesign along with tool and cultural changes?

Vlad Ukis17:05:40 What is the position of your org leaders?

Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)14:05:18

That old chestnut "the budgeting beast" that needs changing...for sure

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:31

Leading and lagging measures πŸ’―

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:02

I struggle as a developer, knowing all the things we need to improve on, but the leaders not seeing that we need to invest time into making the improvements (reduce tech debt). They seem to think we need more features, where we really need to clean up and improve what we have

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AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:02

I struggle as a developer, knowing all the things we need to improve on, but the leaders not seeing that we need to invest time into making the improvements (reduce tech debt). They seem to think we need more features, where we really need to clean up and improve what we have

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:18

"Improving daily work is as important as daily work" quoting Gene

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:33

I think of that often... it's hard to convince others of that πŸ™‚. I often promote Gene's books

Bryan Finster - Defense Unicorns (Speaker)14:05:57

Very difficult to cook in a dirty kitchen

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AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:45

let's add on to the house.. but it's on fire 😞

Michael Bird - Senior Architect, UPMC14:05:55

Our approach to debt was to get the leaders to realize that we need both. Over our sprints we have some portion of time devoted to reducing debt and some portion devoted to delivering new value. The reduction of debt has value somewhere or it wouldn't be in your backlog, you just have to figure out how to quantify that to your leadership.

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AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:30

it is the job of devs to bring those issues up. I think leadership needs to make the space and time and prioritize them

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:22

It's a business risk & reward

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:46

Might want to intentionally incur debt to be first to market

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:02

Risk decision as to when to pay some or all of it of

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:20

very true, we need features to get more clients and revenue, but at some point it starts slowing us down so much it feels like we'll crash and burn

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:25

I'm sure there is a U curve in there somewhere

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:40

Perfect is the enemy of good

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AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:42

Clean Architecture by Uncle Bob was helpful too

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)14:05:05

Yes, knowing the difference is key, agree @jonathansmart1!

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)14:05:36

I actually see reduction in β€œFlow Time” as a leading indicator of value delivered. Though β€œTime to Market” is often a lagging one as it is considered for bringing entire new projects or applications to market.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:52

Nested leading indicators! Aging as a leading indicator of Time to Value as a leading indicator of Value as a leading indicator of survival

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)14:05:12

Yes, agree, and good point that @justin7orbry made on that.

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Helen Beal14:05:24

Most delays caused by organizational design, technology is the constraint at the end of the system... this is fabulous!

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Tim B14:05:16

If you build E2E feature teams who aren't dependent on anyone big is too big? (in terms of people).

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Justin watts14:05:32 we tend to ask people to study the effect of the current measures so they can make up their own mind

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James Simon14:05:41

Great, but I hear the conversation now: Me: So you see? Management: Yes totally Me: So lets change the org this way Management: No, we have to deliver

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Gianluca Manzi14:05:56

Fully agree...but I challenge myself sometimes, are we lacking skills to "sell" ??

James Simon14:05:39

I have lived with that doubt for two years πŸ˜„

Gianluca Manzi14:05:58

or influence, create advocacy...

Gianluca Manzi14:05:30

isnt in the Unicorn Project book where one exec joins the troops in the pub and that exec is used to create advocacy in the senior leadership? something like that

James Simon14:05:58

Yes, I keep probing for weaknesses and trying to find that exec

James Simon14:05:06

might be onto the right one now

James Simon14:05:17

We have made progress, don't get me wrong

James Simon14:05:30

but that "delivery" thing keep rearing its head

Andy Farmer - Tasktop15:05:32

A very very typical situation. So many threads to this challenge, from conflicting incentive structures and bonuses, to lack of data to justify the change - and more. But from what I have seen in my career so far - the most important thing is having someone at the executive level that genuinely cares about how improving how software is built and delivered. Someone that is willing to tackle the 'sacred cows' (like moving to focus on Value instead of just Costs, or breaking down the silos to align business and technology to Products). Someone who is willing to fight to 'move the needle' on the business results, manage the political aspects and break a few eggs on the way - rather than just deliver a pre-defined transformation project. If you or your company can find an executive or senior manager who is genuinely like that - just like in the Unicorn Project - then great things will result.. not just in terms of business results, but also in terms of employee happiness !!

Vlad Ukis09:05:40

"Transform While You Perform" is the challenge. However, I have not seen transformations running any other way. You need a small group of people in the org at different levels to pull off the transformation. 3-5 key people or so.

Andy Farmer - Tasktop11:05:58

Very true - transformation is a team sport, at all levels

James Simon14:05:12

or: This framework from giant consulting firm will fix that

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Helen Beal14:05:51

"Doing the wrong thing righter" :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Justin watts14:05:06

@james.simon1165 you Need better measures to show that delivery is not efficient

Gianluca Manzi14:05:16

@justin7orbry Well said on anti-patterns

James Simon14:05:48

It couldn't be more clear if you tattooed it on people in big block letters

Chris Shuknecht14:05:54

I love this talk of looking at whole systems (and flow). I feel like there are some nice wins on local optimizations in a system, but you start to get real wins when the larger org starts evolving more (though that seems to be a large challenge for many)

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Also involves a lot more people. Therefore much harder to do, maybe impossible with the wrong people in the company.

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Tim Gould14:05:51

First time I’ve heard someone at one of these conferences with my accent, But seriously , this is really bold stuff, and getting to the heart of the adoption of methods or models piecemeal rather than good systems thinking. Da iawn Justin!

Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:18

Bore da @tim.gould

Tim Gould14:05:09

p’nawn da Adrian πŸ™‚

Philip Day19:05:11

The bit where he said Taiichi Ono! πŸ™‚ I'm catching up on this after the event... @justin7orbry fantastic talk thank you! So much insight. I couldn't make out the name of the John __ person at Cardiff, who was that?

Adrian (Tasktop)20:05:28

@philipday - it was John Seddon

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Justin watts20:05:53

i learned more from John about TPS than any body else regarding lean because it was about TPS not what the lean movement has become

Philip Day20:05:39

Thank you both!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:00

"Value demand" nice one @justin7orbry I'm hearing pull over push

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Tim Gould14:05:27

Dare we ask your opinion SAFe and the industry around it?

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:32

"Sprint goal: could be doing the wrong thing righter"

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Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting14:05:55

Since @justin7orbry mentioned systems thinking: Can someone recommend a good book which treats systems thinking quantitatively, i.e. includes some math?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:49

Principles of Product Development Flow, Reinertsen

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]14:05:27

Thinking in Systems, Donella Meadows

Andreas Baernthaler - TNG Technology Consulting14:05:06

Thanks @jonathansmart1. Probably my mistake was only listening to the audio book of "Thinking in systems" πŸ˜† .


I tried that, @andreas.baernthaler! It is not that kind of book, as I learned.

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Justin watts14:05:16

@tim.gould lol .. we do some of it but the things that work and support out principle of the correct work in the correct order not a by the book version ..

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)14:05:24

Such a key point @justin7orbry just made re changing the system!

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)14:05:40

I’m amazed at how often the system is not changed, then culture is blamed…

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Justin watts14:05:13

the culture is a consequence of the system end of :-)

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Patrick Anderson - Tasktop - he/him14:05:26

If you want to hear more from @justin7orbry and the remarkable stuff he's doing at Lloyds, do make sure to listen to his illuminating podcast episode with Mik Kersten. Redesigning software systems around flow, respecting laws of physics when accelerating flow, identifying leading indicators, the economies of flow and more

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Michael Kalbermatter14:05:27

@justin7orbry thx so much for your insights. I loved your talk. So true. We are working by far too much on solutions which are not based on real problems.

Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:31

you're not alone @michael.kalbermatter !!!

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Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:32

*Overuse of Scrum *DevOps necessary but not sufficient *Doing the wrong things righter Thanks @justin7orbry - fabulous insights

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)14:05:57

I wrote down quite a few quotes πŸ™‚

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Superb.. Thank you @justin7orbry :flag-wales:

AlignedDev (Omnitech Engineer)14:05:44

thanks for the great talk and all the Slack conversation

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:05:53

I think the problem with Scrum is that you don't give it an honest try before adapting and the problem with Kanban is that you do parts of it to shirk on the parts of Scrum you didn't understand.

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Justin watts14:05:23

@ferrix points don’t make prizes and is done really done and from who’s perspective .. ?to work out if scrum is working for you find out how many instances of done are done from the external customers perspective ..

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:05:16

This! It has been thought through but the thoughts never explained.

Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)14:05:48

Great talk @justin7orbry. It would be great to see how much as a result of e2e/ system thinking and flow improvements, "Compressing the time from Idea to cash" has improved over time.

Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:45

thanks @sabina.kambersalamanc Loved your talk this morning btw! Perhaps we can compare notes

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Patrick Anderson - Tasktop - he/him14:05:41

hi @sabina.kambersalamanc! What Adrian said (loved your talk). Justin talks about how Lloyds reduced customer mortgage application times in this podcast episode. which you may find of interest

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Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)15:05:00

Many thanks for sharing. I will check this out

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Justin watts14:05:52

@sabina.kambersalamanc we are getting there ..we have brilliant pockets ..but so much still to do

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Sabina Kamber Salamanca (Lead Agile Coach, Vodafone)14:05:22

Keep going. It sounds like a great journey and one well worth undertaking. I love it

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:05:57

@justin7orbry I tend to ask the question: "When you say Scrum does not work for you, what's the reasoning behind that and how did you try to adapt it to your needs?"

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili14:05:33

(I really love the few times when I got a mature answer...)

Adrian (Tasktop)14:05:36

I understood from @justin7orbry that the issue is not scrum per se, but a tendency to over-rely on the processes, ceremonies opposed to how work is flowing and delivery of value is being improved.

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Justin watts15:05:34

@ferrix see above i answers in the thread 3:55

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili15:05:41

Yeah, I think we're aligned on that thought. "Ceremonies without understanding are the biggest challenge for agility" is a quote from a wise man observing us do SAFe in 2010.

Andy Farmer - Tasktop15:05:07

Loving the dialogue generated by @justin7orbry and @adrian.jones’s talk on business value - so many angles to this!

Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:20

RE: todays talk with Justin and Adrian - β€’ For all those that are interested in helping their org move from Project to Product - check out the Project to Product podcast, featuring several of the DOES presenters, including Justin, Gene Kim and many more - β€’ For all those that are interested in connecting technology and business on the flow of value - check out

Andy Farmer - Tasktop17:05:07

RE: 'many more' on Mik + One - goodness me, I had not realised quite how many DOES presenters have shared their insights via this podcast until I wrote these out 🀯 Justin Watts, Gene Kim, Pieter Jordaan, Robin Yeman, Maya Leibman, Ross Clanton, Matthew Skelton, Manuel Pais, Jon Smart, Rene Te-Strote and possibly more from previous years.. It is becoming quite the transformation cultural index!

Justin watts17:05:28

They should be the same