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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - VP Eng (DevOps, Security) - Grofers05:10:30

Dammit I missed again. Summarizing all the amazing lean coffee discussions for myself this morning.

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Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:21

For those of you who've enjoyed the conversations this week, here's a way to have continual conversations after DOES !

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop19:10:22

Today's Lean Coffee lineup: Thurs, Oct 15 Lineup @dave -  Rm 2            @bryan.finster - Walmart Dojo                  Metrics pitfalls   -   Rm 3 @dominica Project to Product  -  Rm 4 @dan.sloan - Cox Automotive  Outcomes over Output - Rm 5 @james.simon1           The role of communities in our work  - Rm 6            @berendzs Sooner, Safer, Happier  -  Rm 7 @steveelsewhere  Value Streams - Rm 8 @nazia.ali Remote Work Grumpiness -  Rm 9 @jtf                     Changing Behavior  -  Rm 10

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop19:10:01

Zoom links to these sessions will be posted here in this channel at 2:40 pm PT today.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop19:10:31

Today's lean coffees formally begin at 2:50 pm PT.

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional21:10:45

@kimberley.wilson2 @peterlear any chance you'd like to keep talking about OKRs during Leadership Alignment Lean Coffee? 😛

Ann Perry - IT Revolution21:10:25

It’s your final chance to join a Lean Coffee session today at 2:50p PT — we have a number of topics to choose from, all led by trained facilitators. Here is the list of topics and corresponding Zoom links to join. Engage in meaningful discussions and meet your fellow attendees!   As the “rooms” fill up, we will be marking them as full and ask that you consider joining another open room/topic. Have fun! Thursday, Oct 15 LC Topics/Facilitators Leadership Alignment  |  Dave Mangot Mural Rm 2 Zoom 2: Metrics Pitfalls  |  Bryan Finster Mural Rm 3 Zoom 3: Project to Product  |  Dominica DeGrandis Mural Rm 4 Zoom 4: Outcomes Over Output  |  Dan Sloan Mural Rm 5 Zoom 5: The Role of Communities In Our Work  |  James Simon NOW FULL Mural Rm 6 Zoom 6: Sooner Safer Happier  |  Zsolt Berend. FULL Mural Rm 7 Zoom 7: Value Streams  |  Steve Pereira Mural Rm 8 Zoom 8: Remote Work Grumpiness  |  Nazia Ali Mural Rm 9 Zoom 9: Changing Behavior  |  Jeffrey Fredrick Mural Rm 10 Zoom 10:


sorry! technical difficulties

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:42

@bryan.finster how many you got in your session?

Ann Perry - IT Revolution22:10:23

We still have space for more in Room 7 with @berendzs, one of the coauthors of the upcoming Sooner Safer Happier! Sooner Safer Happier  |  Zsolt Berend Mural Rm 7 Zoom 7:

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional22:10:55

Room 2, and we have room for more folks!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations22:10:08

from Changing Behavior (pdf to follow)

Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service22:10:24

Thanks again @dave great conversation and nice to meet you!

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional22:10:11

Likewise. I'm rooting for Edward Jones (and you)!


Is it possible to work agile without pointing stories?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:27

Sure. The point of pointing is to capture planning metrics. You can do the same with similarly sized work.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:34

On my current product we haven’t used story points at all. We aren’t that worried about planning metrics, just on what’s blocking is and what’s the next highest priority. More Kanban than Scrum.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:02

3 story sizes • NFI: No Freakin' Idea • 1 • TFB: Too Freakin' Big

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:48

Story counting. Regression to the mean (law of averages, so long as roughly a 1) It's the conversation that matters.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:47

And don't forget to look where the work isn't.


This is termoundously insightful, thank you all.

Cat Swetel15:10:31

I have gathered data from hundreds of teams, and I have found that work items don't even need to be similarly sized in order to provide good forecasts, as much of the total duration of any item will be spent in wait states ie low flow efficiency.

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Cat Swetel15:10:14

Also, Ron Jeffries has said this many times, "I may have invented story points, and if I did, I'm sorry."

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)15:10:05

@catswetel "much of the total duration of any item will be spent in wait states", excellent insight that I hadn't reached yet. Thanks.

Cat Swetel15:10:22

I believe page 150 in Making Work Visible is an overview of flow efficiency. I like how @dominica has made this idea accessible to knowledge workers. We borrow a lot of terms from manufacturing, but it seemed like "process cycle efficiency" was not catching on. lol Thank goodness for "flow efficiency."

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations08:10:07

@catswetel: struck by that same insight that Bryan mentioned. I’ve not read MWV so this may be a dumb question: if you improve your flow efficiency so that items aren’t spent in wait states does that mean your forecasts then become “worse” in that the variation in work items starts to dominate?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)12:10:23

I highly recommend MWV. I may need to re-read it.

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx16:10:42

I don’t remember anything about that specifically in MWV and I can’t see anything on a quick flick through it again (definitely worth a reread!) May be worth seeing if @dominica is still around here. My 2c: once you’ve improved flow efficiency to that degree then slicing becomes even more important - as Jon says above, slice everything that’s TFB down to 1 point / ideal day / gummi bear and work more on things that are NFI. But then what does “forecast” mean because you’re not slicing everything in your backlog, just the top priority features. That then means you have strong confidence in your forecast for the next few iterations because you’ve sliced well. Further out - not so much, but then those aren’t your top priority features so maybe accurate forecasts aren’t so important. There’s a whole other book to be written on this (Planning Extreme Programming is a lost classic which gives it a good go).

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how do we pair w/ mgmt wanting to know when features will be delivered (which PI) and what dependencies we need on other teams as part of this ritual

Cat Swetel18:10:21

yeah, I have not seen accuracy of forecasts decrease in any significant way as flow efficiency increases, but the models for forecasting definitely change (from emphasis on wait times/queues to emphasis on expertise). the changes I see as a result of emphasis on decreased wait times often have the effect of driving out variability through the maturation of interfaces and platforms OR the colocation (literally or figuratively) of experts. that being said, I have seen extremely few value streams achieve anything that I would call flow efficiency rather than inefficiency. lol I am not sure that's bad, given the complexity of the systems we have created. I think it's natural (for now). It's just interesting.... 🤷 I dunno, @jtf

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Cat Swetel18:10:34

@syedhussainchi I always look to Troy Magennis for help on planning around dependencies. 💕 I think the most important insight I've had is to decouple prioritization and sequencing. That made my life much easier.

Cat Swetel18:10:59

Also, Troy always sends people this diagram (used for triage in hospital emergency rooms). I find it very helpful:

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i'll google Troy Magennis

Cat Swetel18:10:41

He is one of the most magical humans currently on planet Earth.



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would you happen to have the source of that diagram handy?

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop18:10:07

@rohrersm See pg 94 of MWV where I touch on the perception that allocating workload by WIP limits won't fly b/c work items aren't all the same size. But size doesn't really matter b/c we can only really work on so many things at a time. It doesn't matter how big or small something is when you can only truly focus on one complicated thing at a time. When that work is done (regardless of size), you move on to the next thing. @jtf @catswetel

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Cat Swetel18:10:49

^this came up on a panel I was on about mob programming...reducing WIP decreases variability of forecasts


Invite<inflict 💥


Start with what happened at your last feature


I like that!

Nazia Ali, Cox Automotive22:10:16

Room 9 - Remote Work Grumpiness!

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is it easier to kill a project or a product?

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop18:10:22

Hard to kill products with high value. I believe it's the product itself that is valuable - not the project.

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive23:10:34

Room 5 - Outcomes over Output, Remote Work, and Cross-Departmental Alignment. Thanks to our participants for a great conversation!


Remote work volunteering sounds awesome!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)23:10:15

Fantastic group for metrics. We went a bit over. 😉

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Love the common glossary idea

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:24

We've done this for test patterns. We are in progress on metrics.

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