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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)00:10:19

We’ve figured out that Management belongs on the Management Bridge while the techies belong on the Technical Bridge. Incident Command summarizes from Technical to Management and cascades requirements to the Technical bridge if it is inline with remediation-first.

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)00:10:55

If only management would stay on the maangement bridge....

Andrew Davis - AutoRABIT - DevSecOps for Salesforce00:10:39

I'm impressed by @allspaw’s ability to keep a straight face throughout these indictments on tech leaders management of incidents

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)00:10:50

“You don’t need this chart to ask deeper questions” — Spot on!

archana kataria00:10:00

streaming stopped?

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere00:10:53

Same. Have noticed a little lag in last two talks.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)00:10:15

Love this point! Just ask the questions, you don’t need the chart.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)00:10:46

The amount of misleading on-the-fly interpretation of shallow data from charts of this sort is amazing, and I frequently have to monitor myself not to fall into the trap.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)00:10:37

How do we make that harder to do?

John Allspaw00:10:09

Promote non-shallow data first and hold it to be important.

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:52

So, we are claiming that TLs don't know much about the incidents. And then, we ask them not to log on to the INC bridges.

John Allspaw00:10:39

I’m not claiming, I’m reporting what we’ve found. Didn’t tell people to not log onto bridges.

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:20

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. I've just had that impression from your talk, that you see TLs participating in incident response as an antipattern.

John Allspaw00:10:54

No, I’m saying that if it was an antipattern in the specific context of a given company, leaders rarely would detect that or people tell them.

John Allspaw00:10:51

Many leaders genuinely believe their presence is supportive and helpful - we see a gap between how others in the channel experience their presence, and how they think they’re being perceived.

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:47

Now I think I get it! Thank you for your patience 🙂

John Allspaw00:10:27

Thank you for asking, and even listening to the talk at all!

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:45

This new way of conferencing is very tempting. Sometimes it's hard to concentrate on listening with so much interesting going on in the slack channel. Never had this issue when I was sitting in the large audience room and had no choice but to listen what the host is saying.

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)00:10:55

Right, when will he do that?? 🙂

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host00:10:13

after verifying we don’t have any pitchforks


(as any smug expressions vanishes from audience. 🙂

archana kataria00:10:19

this is a big change to drive within any organization

archana kataria00:10:23

but totally makes sense

archana kataria00:10:48

however some metrics are needed to measure progress

Kurt A, Clari00:10:56

a future where automation will make incidents disappear 🌈

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)00:10:56

Excellent how this directly follows some of @erica.morrison’s learnings!

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)00:10:04

“don’t capture what makes an incident difficult; only what was done to remediate” — Great call out!

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Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service00:10:48

The "How do i get people to stop asking me questions" approach to incident write ups...

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)00:10:49

I guess now it is time to massacre the practitioners who were laughing while you covered leadership? haha, awesome

Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:11

@allspaw Do u have links to examples of poor and excellent write-ups?

archana kataria00:10:36

I would be interested in this as well

John Allspaw00:10:03

I wish I did - as it turns out, our clients don’t feel comfortable publishing their writeups.

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:11:11

Can you anonymize and publish?

Joseph Laihee00:10:35

Knowledge base

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:36

Here comes the bashing of practitioners 😄


“minimal viable guess at what happened”

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Dominic Laycock00:10:54

God yes, jumping to fixes

Jim Cuff, VP Engineering / CTO Consultant (he/him)00:10:12

Minimal Viable Guess = Fix under way!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:18

Upgrade than SAN firmware

😂 1

not sure if that was deliberate, but I love that this was opening chapter of Phoenix Project! 🙂

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:35

Blame the network team!

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Misty (American Airlines)00:10:38

Yep! It's always BigIP in our world! :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)00:10:02

After the hosting team. Which is after the monitoring team.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)00:10:07

Yeah, all you people need to be fixed. I'm fine.

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Kurt A, Clari00:10:16

Didn't @steve773 cite the issue with the Penn Station subway sign in his London talk - good example of fixing without learning

Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:45

Thanks. But what's wrong with the sign? I'm guessing one of the things on it no longer exists?

Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow00:10:24

Yeah, a lit sign they keep changing the bulb for, but it's no longer meaningful.

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Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:08

It's tough being 12 hours out of synch with the conference....

Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow00:10:47

For sure, it's tough just 3 hours out of sync

archana kataria00:10:23

machines will solve incidents....

Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:02

Skynet will solve all our problems...

Kurt A, Clari00:10:33

Yes, but perhaps not in a way you'll be happy with

Taylor Barnett00:10:01

I talk a lot about this with people. My CTO gave a talk on it yesterday too. The “Automate all the things” trend is still too strong.

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)00:10:44

Yes!! Prioritize work on incidents when things are going well!!!

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)00:10:51

The interesting challenge is across the employee / contractor boundary…

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional00:10:57

Interesting perspective wrt A Learning Organization

Melissa Hoskins (Kenzan, Agile Solutions)00:10:08

“The expertise is coming from inside the house.”

😂 3

BTW, what I find so exciting about this talk is that it reinforces the notion that we need a Structure where they enable the Dynamics where weak failure signals can be acted upon, aggressively, quickly, effectively (even generatively) — and for that matter, strong signals, like in massive outages. cc @allspaw

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)00:10:03

dont ask me, not the producer. Just sharing because the funny representation fits a bit the bashing John is presenting and some of the side discussions in the channel here 😛

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional00:10:20

I don't agree with the representation of a homogenous community of DevOps practitioners.

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)00:10:51

sorry, I guess my use of the word representation was misunderstood. I agree, we are not only dudes and the video could have been better on this. What I meant by "funny representation fits a bit..." is that they fit the description of Tech Leaders and Practitioners in John's talk as well as the finger point culture we were talking in the channel 🙂

John Allspaw00:10:01

Incidents are being prevented every day. We don’t recognize the events that don’t happen, but they’re prevented by people leaning on their experience with past incidents.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:10

How do u track and measure the near misses?

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:25

it's hard to track prevented incidents


this the notion of the “virtual andon cord” that @steve773 talks about — make it easy so that any problem can be quickly captured, and mobilize leaders to quickly help. His stories of how this has helped in nursing and pharmaceutical labs are incredible. cc @jeff.gallimore

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John Allspaw00:10:43

Prevented incidents is called “everyday work”

Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:06

Is anyone doing the “virtual andon cord” we can learn from?


cc @steve773

Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:16

Do we have a virtual andon cord to generate learnings for this conference? 😁

Steve Spear15:10:42

Thanks @genek101 @nick.kritsky and @nickeggleston Please visit our site The promo videos explains the idea of a virtual andon cord. That page is a little legacy, but enough of a appetite whetter that if there’s interest, we can pick up for a bigger discussion about those tools and others now in our portfolio.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)00:10:34

I think in general we need to promote structure, rigor, and discipline. When will the industry move on from artisanal development and cowboy process?

John Allspaw00:10:40

The levels structure, rigor, and discipline is what is keeping you from having more and more significant incidents!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:54

Promote and practice practice practice

Steve Gertz00:10:05

True that; it's hard because there's a spectrum: how much specialization should be done on the team vs how much should be consistent across teams

Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:14

It's ironic - they embrace CI/CD and all forms of automated process.... but you tell them they have to do things the same way twice and they get all 'creative' on you...

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Luke Rettig - Target, Sr Director-Global Inventory Mangement00:10:22

Bryan is not normal… see comment on everyone else being wrong 😆

😂 2
Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)00:10:41

I'd rather sleep at night. Every developer should work with management who understand development and the things that negatively impact sleep.

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Steve Gertz00:10:16


Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)00:10:22

@lucas.rettig I have pager PTSD

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)00:10:06

After this conference. Working CT and staying up PT is a killer.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY00:10:45

Sleep and partying are at odds


^^^ exactly. near misses, workarounds, problem bypasses, toil…

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)00:10:20

“These meetings need to be prepared for (require skill)” - great point

Adam Bowman00:10:26

AKA Stand down Tech Leaders

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)00:10:47

My hypothesis is that Making Incidents Visible and part of Daily Work builds resilience and allows people to prepare to handle the big ones...

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Andy Burton00:10:58

Source for this?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)00:10:47

Published by ITRev in the fall:

Andy Burton00:10:53

Ah, the whitepaper mentioned during Erica Morrison's talk. Definitely will be on my reading list. Thank you!

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional00:10:44

The "soak time" idea is an established brainstorming idea backed up by neuroscience

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Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:44

Very good idea about the "soak time".

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Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:55

"one of the most mature things you can do is step away from the keyboard"

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John Allspaw00:10:36

Yes, so leaders would do well to stop demanding and constraining how long an incident analysis should take

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Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:10

Instead, they should ask responders to estimate how long analysis will take.... (tongue firmly in cheek)

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:05

Collect data about outage - immediately. Generate action items - later

Adam Hawkins, SRE at Skillshare, Host00:10:17

💯 Adding specific action items to a presentation :thumbsup::skin-tone-3:

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Randy Shoup00:10:15

At Google App Engine, we brainstormed about action items in the meeting, assigned "themes" of them to engineer / leads, and then brought the same group back 1 week later to discuss the (curated) action item suggestions. Hugely valuable to give the team that space to think and investigate.

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor00:10:22

"Solutions come to you when you're taking a walk, with friends" (when away from the screen), And I would argue - when under lower stress - when fight or flight is not in play.

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Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:54

in several places I've started walking meetings.

Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:29

it's a kind of low level physical/cognitive activity that breaks the cycle of whatever stress loop people are in

Rich B - DevOps is my career change14:10:38

I walk every day 4-5 miles. Some of that walk (about 1 -2 miles) i do with no input (no headphones). These are usually around 7:30 am, give your mind time to think through things without noise in your head is crucial to so many things. In todays world we are constantly bombarded with noise - have to take the headphones off for a while and let your mind work.

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:41

I didn't get the practitioner's part of the challenge

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere00:10:46

Great talk @allspaw! One thing we tried to overcome the postmortem "check the box" was to measure NPS around the post-incident review meeting. "How likely would you be to suggest your peers attend the incident reviews we hold in our company." 😁 It actually led to some really great feedback on how to make these reviews more effective. And, yes, it was scary as hell to our IC's when it was first suggested.

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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere00:10:46

Great talk @allspaw! One thing we tried to overcome the postmortem "check the box" was to measure NPS around the post-incident review meeting. "How likely would you be to suggest your peers attend the incident reviews we hold in our company." 😁 It actually led to some really great feedback on how to make these reviews more effective. And, yes, it was scary as hell to our IC's when it was first suggested.

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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere00:10:35

But once they started getting constructive feedback, they became some of our biggest proponents for it.


Thank you, @allspaw!!!!!

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archana kataria00:10:40

the best one till now!

Randy Shoup00:10:42

Thanks @allspaw ~!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:46

Noooooo it can’t be over already!! 😭

John Allspaw00:10:00

Thanks for listening, folks! And thank you, @erica.morrison for “duetting” with me again!

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👍 1

Yes, what an amazing “duet”, @erica.morrison and @allspaw!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:14

Where u gonna be hanging out later? @bryan.finster’s Zoom?

Erica Morrison00:10:17

You make a great duet partner!

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Carter McHugh (He/Him)00:10:01

In awe...great work.

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Erica Morrison00:10:08

Kudos @allspaw!

Christopher S Donahue00:10:12

Awesome Talk & Thanks for sharing your insights @john.cutler

Andy Weldon00:10:24

@allspaw How have you found documenting Red Herrings usable? I've never thought of documenting them, but I'm wondering what that would buy us. Thanks for the talk!

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John Allspaw00:10:06

Understanding what makes following red herrings is incredibly valuable, because it can reveal mechanisms that can look like things they are not. People follow red herrings and rabbit holes because they appear to be productive. Only hindsight helps us see that they weren’t productive.

Andy Weldon00:10:37

Ahh, OK. Thanks!

John Allspaw00:10:18

Also: stories of red herrings is fuel for genuinely compelling reading and stories that are told. This is perhaps the most valuable part, because it brings the reader in and requires the author to describe details what made it look like it was the right direction.

Andre Santos00:10:34

Excellent presentation @allspaw! Thanks a lot!

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)00:10:01

OK, grabbing beer for my happy hour AMA starting soon, looking forward to chatting to people there 🙂

Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)00:10:08

@allspaw says "Start tracking how often post-incident write-ups are voluntarily read by people outside of the team(s) closest to the incident." so simple, yet 🤯

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John Allspaw00:10:57

Turns out, counting page views is somewhat of a solved problem. 🙂

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:16

this is great idea. no doubt.

Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:45

One place I worked we had a "lessons learnt" database that was a mandatory part of the project process. At one point we queried how much it was used and discovered that the only people who had used it in the past 3 years were the people who posted their findings. No one had ever read it. Still, the PMO insisted on keeping it as part of the process and decided to make it part of people's KPI's to read it....

John Allspaw00:10:50

That latter point is why making them available and not ‘metricized’ is an important part. You want the analysis to be genuinely compelling reading, so people can build an expectation that they will discover new things they didn’t know before.

Nick - developer at BNPP00:10:22

@nick.jenkins other "brilliant" idea is to store the post-mortems on the wiki space where nobody has access except for the IM team 🙂

Nick Jenkins (Director, Mech Rock DevOps, Perth, Oz)00:10:50

We try and frame them as a story and publish them in slack. Everyone likes to read a thriller...

Nick Eggleston (free radical)00:10:22

Don’t be a donut - be a DOnut - I mean... a croissant

Jacob Daubendiek01:10:30

@afurtado how do i get one of those DevOpsAF shirts?

Adam Furtado, Chief of Platform, Kessel Run (USAF)12:10:03

Come to my AMA today and I may have an answer! 😉

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upvotepartyparrot 4

We want an AgileAF t-shirt cannon! 🎉🎉🎉 😂😂😂

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:53

Guided drone (or missile) t-shirt delivery

Javier Magaña - Walmart15:10:11

I'm looking for the presentation from @dwayne, in dropbox, and cannot seem to find it.

Ann Perry - IT Revolution15:10:01

Hi Javier - we'll be uploading it shortly, stay tuned!

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thankyou 1
Javier Magaña - Walmart14:10:50

Hello @annp. The slides for this presentation are still missing. Or I still cannot find it. 😞

Ann Perry - IT Revolution14:10:58

Hi Javier - I believe that we will have them uploaded soon. I'll give you a ping.

Javier Magaña - Walmart14:10:18

thank you for the help Ann


Good morning, DevOps Enterprise Summit! Looking forward to an amazing Day 3!!! 🎉

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:46

@genek101: did you film all these transitions on the same day and change wardrobe in between?

Christopher S Donahue15:10:54

Good Morning! everyone!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:10:02

YAS! "we deconstruct work so that teams CAN work independently"


(Something like that — three hangers with three pre-selected shirts, worn across many days. 🙂

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:10

Excited for day 3!!

upvotepartyparrot 1
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“decisions can be made locally, without the vast escalations, such as to the CEO of the hospital system that Dr. @steve773 described yesterday.”

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)15:10:49

Soon we welcome @werner.loots and @ian.eslick for our opening plenary Q&A!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:42

Structures are what we do; dynamics are what we get. Dynamics are emergent and can’t be perfectly predicted. You must probe-sense-respond.

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I was amazed by @jtf observation of how the Westrum organizational typology model is indeed a description of how information / signals flow within an org — in other words, the dynamics.

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems15:10:52

Stories like these and the Steve Spear Idealcast episode really get me excited about growing learning organizations.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:53

Team of Teams is a great description of information flowing to where it is needed, as per Westrum’s Generative culture.


Upper-right quadrant: culture of learning

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech15:10:31

So cool that both Westrum and Edmundson did most of their work in healthcare - shows the dangers of Human Debt in a much more evident way than we can see in tech


Lower-right quadrant: culture of compliance

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:41

Our ability to handle complex problems is in part enabled by the 2nd Taylorist revolution where we standardize work through automation.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:27

The darkside of Taylorism were a culture that prohibited learning at the edges. Now learning/automation is happening at the edges.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]15:10:13

For repetitive work with known unknowns, yes.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:45

Freeing time and cognitive load for other more valuable problems

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)15:10:11

This quadrant is so powerful.

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY15:10:14

Culture of compliance - great band name :)


Lower-left quadrant: ad hoc, or like the movie Momento — no memory of the past

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:24

no memory of the past, limited ability to learn

Yann Le Tiec15:10:34

Good morning everyone!

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems15:10:11

I'm totally going to use Momento as an example on a regular basis now.

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Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service15:10:16

We use Inception regularly to describe our worst architectures

Brad Nelson15:10:01

I might be realizing that I don't have my own emojis...

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Jeremy Sechler15:10:56

Great Jeff cartoons. Kudos to whomever did them.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:14

Thanks for bringing this community together ❤️

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]15:10:23

Standardized work is fine for repetitive work (known unknowns, lean production), not so good for emergent work where experimentation is needed (unknown unknowns, agility)

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:37

Great insight. It helps frame the limitations of Lean


Please welcome @werner.loots and @ian.eslick!!! 🎉 🎉 🎉

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Harsimran, Infosys15:10:19

Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening! Everyone to at #DOES20! Was great to be part of last two days! Looking forward to Day 3.

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It was amazing hearing from @levi.geinert and @werner.loots talking about that small business loan program — they could apply for loans and potentially have it approved and have funds in their bank account within minutes or hours!!!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:54

Such an impressive change of client experience!

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@ian.eslick Clojure! 🙂

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:50

I wonder what happened to Scheme :thinking_face: (which I learned from Dan Friedman CS311 at IU Bloomington)

Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service15:10:47

IU! When were you there? I graduated December '98

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:33

A few years before that. Did you take Dan’s course?

Justin Heimburger - Edward Jones Team Lead, Platform as a Service15:10:41

No, I was a music major. 🙂 My wife may have, though. She did CIS via the business school.

Nick Eggleston (free radical)23:10:32

Which music did you major in?

Ian Eslick23:10:50

Scheme never made it into the professional programmer toolkit; the ecosystem was very geared towards education and hobby programming. Clojure did make that transition (Rich’s original intention) as did Common Lisp for a short time in the 80's/90's. I talked to Sussman about replacing Scheme with Python at MIT some years ago and he was supportive - his comments amounted to “an elegant tool for a more civilized age” or rather assembling and managing systems of components is more important than expressing core concepts perfectly - and Python does provide lambdas so other than losing homoiconicity, you can still do alot of what made the intro Scheme course so great (which I both took and later TA’ed with Sussman).

Ganga Narayanan15:10:58

That's what makes transformation stories of such organizations more interesting!

Chris Movick15:10:51

Whether you think you can or can't, you're right!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:32

How did you get the appetite for improvement, for change, without a burning platform @werner.loots @levi.geinert?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:17

When we’d expect the dominant architecture to fight against the change.

Levi Geinert15:10:56

Definitely not easy, with the studios we found business lines that believed there was in their business lines. But this is often the hardest part. @ian.eslick might have more to add.

Ian Eslick16:10:50

I’ve benefited from groundwork and leadership laid over the two years prior to my joining the bank (I joined about a year ago). Our new CIO Dilip Venkatachari worked closely with our Digital office to make the case for transformation. They provided some high level guidance like public cloud first, microservices, data APIs — and many of the folks in this conference made the overall value case for this transformation — the challenge now is turning that high level alignment into changes in process, tools, and culture across the bank. It’s hard, but definitely easier when you have strong top-down support.

Ian Eslick16:10:18

One area we are looking to improve is how we communicate to our business leaders and make sure they understand what we’re trying to do and that we highlight the value as we create it. It is key to earning trust across the bank the next few levels down from our managing committee


“Enter 2020… Insert your favorite meme.” @werner.loots

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:16

it will never be this slow again < great insight, great framing of the need for learning & change

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Some photos of @werner.loots and @levi.geinert: check out those crazy red Nike Air Maxes that they wore! A signal proudly shown by everyone involved in the effort.

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Werner Loots15:10:39


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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)15:10:28

What percentage of customers were digitally active prior to covid?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:46

Great example about how preparing for learning & change increases resilience, your ability to respond to the unexpected.

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@werner.loots @levi.geinert Can you post a picture of that amazing flyer describing the values behind the red shoes? I loved reading it in the box you sent me!!! ❤️❤️❤️

❤️ 2

And congrats on your new role, @werner.loots — a testament to the value the transformation group created!!! 🎉🎉🎉


“mainframes, ESBs.. obscure documents from decades ago…” <-- @ian.eslick. 😂


PS: @werner.loots’ comment about transformation being a combination of “careful internal planning” and wild “external events” was amazing…. Fortune favors the prepared…

Werner Loots15:10:31

Just over 70% of customers were digitally active before COVID, so that number increased somewhat, but actual activity a lot more.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:54

Great example of swarming a problem. Reminds me of the Toyota supplier fire example from High Velocity Edge.

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cc @steve773

Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:23

Leadership got to enjoy the change management process

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Mainframe engineering leader: “what we did this week would normally take 3 months”

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM15:10:36

Executive Buy-in is everything

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:24

Also reminds me of the opening of The Phoenix Project and The Goal where they respond to a crisis and ask “why can’t we be this fast all the time?”

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Werner Loots15:10:52

From last week, my first visit back to the office since March!

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That is so great, @werner.loots — what an amazing statement of values, modeled so brilliantly by leaders! Thank you!

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“we had no idea that we could move so fast — that we could go from concept to production in one week” “what is we dramatically invested in technology?” “what if we doubled our technology next year” (!!!) @ian.eslick

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations15:10:46

Great to actually fund success rather than putting money into shoring up failing programs.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY15:10:45

Not sure anyone’s ever said that before


I love the language @ian.eslick is using — I was joking with him and @werner.loots that he’s cracked the code of framing tech debt very precisely using the language of economics. You know… “banker talk.”

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upvotepartyparrot 1
Nick Eggleston (free radical)15:10:40

Shouldn’t be compromising strategy around architecture, as we wouldn’t compromise security

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Randy Shoup15:10:45

Technical debt == Negative externality

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“how do we quantify our book of tech debt that we’re carrying around from year to year.” <--- nice! (banker talk 🙂


“Lots of carrots, and a couple of small sticks”

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:33

Make the right thing more attractive < something I’ve heard more than ones this week

upvotepartyparrot 2
Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:39

What’s the interest rate on that tech debt?

Levi Geinert16:10:33

The rate is less important than the fact its compounding. @genek101 has used banker talk to find a way to our hearts!

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I learned it from you all!!!

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Javier Magaña - Walmart16:10:41

Make everyone's lives better!

Jan Stovall16:10:23

This is great - I was in a meeting this morning where the same question of accelerating came up.

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:05

Did anyone capture that npv slide?

Werner Loots16:10:09

We have slides available to share too.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:28

Cant share that soon enough!

Ganga Narayanan16:10:08

minimizing project costs is like a manufacturer dumping toxic waste -- I love this.

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Randy Shoup16:10:13

I love using the scorecard as a mechanism for making tradeoffs explicit. Make the work / tradeoff visible!

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“I’ll spend $2MM right now, but we’re deliberately holding off on $20MM of investment that we’ll have to spend later.” So good! And so precisely phrased!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:42

Explicit conversations for the win! And that project scorecard provides a nice structure for transparency and curiosity.

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David Roth16:10:26

big fan of the score card too

Ian Eslick23:10:03

It’s definitely gaining traction; the real proof will be whether it is driving the right behavior 6 months from now when it’s just another process step…


Thank you, @ian.eslick and @werner.loots!!! I’m again dazzled by the precision of framing the positive value of great architecture and negative externalized value of tech debt!!!

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:05

I'd love to hear/understand how to price the value of the intangibles when constrained by traditional business case frameworks that want to tradeoff opex/capex...

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:37

It would be great to drill into that

Ian Eslick16:10:28

Thanks @scott.prugh at present we aren’t trying to price intangibles, we translated the issue into a senior leadership alignment around strategy. We use the scorecard to document alignment with the strategy and the use of ‘short term throw away spend’ and ‘need to invest this in the long term’ is a gambit to start surfacing our backlog of debt to leadership. Will let you know next year how it played out.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:19

we love comparing notes < great sign of a learning mindset

Randy Shoup16:10:22

In the old days, eBay used NPV to prioritize projects. It was well-meant, but horrible in execution. Gameable estimates + the "toxic waste" of technical debt and poor programming practices.

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Ian Eslick16:10:47

@rshoup What did eBay replace NPV with? Any insights on how to engage finance in a more enlightened practice?

Randy Shoup16:10:54

It wasn't replaced with anything principled, I'm afraid. I have my own ideas around option theory and portfolio risk management, but nothing concrete to offer yet :-).

Randy Shoup16:10:38

Thanks @ian.eslick @werner.loots !

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Please welcome @jonathan_moore and @michael_winslow!!!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:44

Thanks @werner_loots & @ian.eslick!!!

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hi! (please call me Jon)

Ganga Narayanan16:10:06

Thank you so much!

Scott Dedoes16:10:13

Great presentation! Thank you @werner_loots & @ian.eslick

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“Let me show you how it’s done!” 😂😂😂

Michael Winslow16:10:52

haha! keep them coming!

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:19

@rshoup I agree. The domain of finance is NPV and capex/opex tradeoffs. It fails to capture the other capabilities.

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Randy Shoup16:10:31

Except ... Finance people are trained in option theory and managing risk, and have to think about whether to hedge against high impact, low probability events. I've found that CFOs and finance people are great allies in advocating for technical debt reduction. We just need to help them frame the problem with an investment / risk management lens.

Christopher S Donahue16:10:25

Great discussion and Thanks @werner_loots & @ian.eslick!!!

Austin Wimberly16:10:00

Thanks @werner_loots & @ian.eslick!!! Great talk!

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)16:10:01

Go @jonathan_moore and @michael_winslow!!

Michael Winslow16:10:01

Hi everyone!

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:14

I’ll never forget that talk

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:24

heh. slightly different start to a talk!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:34

Hi @jonathan_moore

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:34

Good use of the cinematic experience!

Alyssa Lundgren - Centil - Product Owner16:10:42

my dog it loving you ripping up the railroad tracks!

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)16:10:50

My favorite opening.... @jonathan_moore @michael_winslow

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:58

Love the tooth pick @michael_winslow and the bandana @jonathan_moore

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Rob Ables16:10:03

The toothpick makes the whole scene work.

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Hahaha. Great example of how standardized rails can destroy some economic activity.

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive16:10:24

Love this @michael_winslow and @jonathan_moore - so creative!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:42


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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:59

well done, need to buy that hat as well haha

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:04

Now I want an engineering hat!

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Andy Weldon16:10:08

I'm so buying one of those

Rob Parkhill, Director SW Engineering, Hexagon AP16:10:11

Costume expectations have been set for future talks...

Michael Winslow16:10:12

8th grade play memories coming back!

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TomLimoncelli (he/him) Speaker Op Best Practices for April Fools16:10:16

Winner of the best hat in a devops talk goes to....

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:19

now I need both an engineering hat and a wookie mask.

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Javier Magaña - Walmart16:10:28

I still code to handle management tasks... FTW!!

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty16:10:48

@michael_winslow and @jonathan_moore bringing the "cinema" to the virtual stage. Great story telling.

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:59

Railroad analogy - love it

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems16:10:31

This is eventually going to be a talk about SAFe release trains right?

Rob Ables16:10:41

Nicely played with a Walmart link.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:39

We'll discuss the Amazon link later. 😉


Ha, sorry. I did actually buy it from the link I shared, but didn't read your profile name in detail before I responded!

Michael Winslow16:10:57

It's kind of like "Deadwood" meets "Back to the Future III"!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:15

New York - over-engineering leading to... re-engineering and re-work

Levi Geinert16:10:28

Still the best

Philip Day16:10:29

Love this format

Michael Winslow16:10:58

This is where Jon gets DEEP!

Zell Gagnon16:10:00

I always love seeing people use Concourse CI - but I would definitely go down in options too


“great britain was the silicon valley of rail”

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Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)16:10:47

The rockstar engineer did not succeed in launching broadgauge

Craig Cook - IBM16:10:55

I sense a container discussion coming soon...

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Dana Finster - Walmart InfoSec (Speaker)16:10:39

OMG! My two passions collide in one talk!! As a model train enthusiast, I am LOVING the railroad comparison!!! So fantastic!

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional16:10:39

Nice parallel between recording the context and Allspaw's talk yesterday

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:41

How often do you revisit the ADRs to update the consequences?

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:47

Where are the ADRs kept, how do you keep them visible?

Michael Winslow16:10:50

I was loving when @steve773 was talking about the "Dominant Architecture Emergence" yesterday!

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Zell Gagnon16:10:22

Gosh, I’m interested in this - What is the timeline and lifespan of an ADR. I had an org that tried them and it did not go well at all 😞

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They're kept in source control, in a well-known ARCH org.

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:09

sounds like our ARB (architecture review board), but a bit more hands-on. Like it!

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:09

sounds like our ARB (architecture review board), but a bit more hands-on. Like it!

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)16:10:36

Way more open and less serialized

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:09

HA. Lovely, gonna save your quote to share in our next ARB call haha

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Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)16:10:43

Best part of group based ADRs are when someone (new typically) comes along 18 months later and asks why the "heck" did we do this and not that. It's all recorded.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:14

I think ADRs are more akin to an RFC process that you see in many OSS communities like, and others. It also reminders me of Tanya Reilly's blog post on how SquareSpace does a similar process:

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:36

ADRs optional to describe good practice, or mandatory with process controls around them?


It varies. The recommendations are written like IETF RFCs, where there are a mixture of MUSTs, SHOULDs, and MAYs in each ADR.


The strongest common level is usually SHOULD, based on our current company culture.

Dominic Laycock16:10:01

For me the primary benefit is not ending up years down the line wondering why on earth we chose tool x

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This is an interesting question. We generally don't revisit to update consequences, per se, although that's a good idea. One of the reasons to record context is that this can be a good way to detect when your context has changed and a new decision might be warranted.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:03

Maybe an automated reminder for a 6 month update to actual vs expected outcomes?

Steve Spear16:10:39

@jonathan_moore @nickeggleston the revisit is what turns trial and error into experiment. And experiment is way higher yield in terms of ignorance becoming understanding.

Michael Winslow16:10:18

inputs and outputs ... love it!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:01

What I've found to work, is to use the quarterly OKR as a trigger to revisit the continuously emergent architecture envisioning / ADR, if not sooner.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)23:10:46

That reminds me of business case submissions and reviews that often include estimates of costs or savings... but does anyone go back and validate that later? :thinking_face:

Dominic Laycock16:10:23

I wish we had retrospective ADR for current tools

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:16

“Rough consensus and running code”


The time it takes to finalize an ADR varies; sometimes a couple months of asynchronous working/conversation. So far, we haven't been doing it long enough for an ADR to expire or be obsoleted, but I expect we'll do something similar to what the IETF does with Internet Standards (marking an ADR as "obsolete").


TIL, just now: I always heard it as "fist of five" as well, but did some Googling and found it as "fist to five" (representing 0 to 5):

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Zell Gagnon16:10:23

Did you have intransigent stakeholders, and if so, how does this system deal with them? (ex: Some person with an important title says, “We are using TravisCI and I’m not budging on that”)

Istvan Bathazi16:10:38

@jonathan_moore are you doing the poll in GH?

Michael Winslow16:10:42

We are not using polls consistently yet.


The polls we showed were done in the relevant chat channel.

Istvan Bathazi16:10:10

would be cool to move all that into gh as well to gather all info went into the decision into one place

Istvan Bathazi16:10:21

i love the repo idea to track and make things visible

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:47

for the voting thing: how do you take in consideration cases where the folks dont know better? If they only know how to use a hammer, even for screws, they will likely vote for the hammer no?

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:13

tagging @jonathan_moore and @michael_winslow 🙂

Michael Winslow16:10:59

There is a danger of large orgs get more votes out of sheer numbers. Regardless of the solution. That is when other orgs have to be able to make good arguments TBH. There was already a very large Jenkins contingent in our case, but the argument for Concourse prevailed in the end.

Michael Winslow16:10:40

We have not yet had to deal with the "wrong" solution winning the day.

Michael Winslow16:10:25

But you can get a lot of votes that "This will never work for me" which can sway the Hammer and Screws solution.

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:09

thanks for clearing that out Michael, appreciated!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:24

Do you ever explain that they SHOULDN'T do that in any CD platform?


Sorry, I was answering other questions. What's the "that" you're referring to here?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:14

Practices that just don't align to a CD flow. You should see the questions we get. :)

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:43

And no worries, the question firehose wore me out yesterday.

Zell Gagnon16:10:42

I’m always pleased to see people using Concourse CI and especially when people select to standardize on it ^_^


My snarky reply is that most executives don't spend time in GHE in practice. 😉 But we'll talk about leadership buy-in in a bit.

Zell Gagnon16:10:28

this was a particular challenge I’ve faced - a “director of engineering” cared a lot about using a particular tool

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)16:10:59

Architecture tooling choice by consensus is a rare things to see. So many architects are used to dictating to teams what they will use and are consequentially ignored.

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:07

the famous Ivory Tower Architect, who define the awesome world without touching the ground and listening to the actual users

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:06

Reminds me of using the Resolution protocol: “What will it take to get you in?”

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:11

Argument I always hear from CTO is that apps all want n+1 solutions in the past

Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:25

YES - ADRs to document team decisions to change default branch names to something more inclusive

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:43

I say that’s because paper isn’t consumable

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:00

I'm curious to know, for the ADRs, who are the people that vote? Is it anyone? Is it a select group of people?

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)16:10:38

We make them visible to all the developers.


We didn't start polling until we had assembled a lot more context people could read, including a clear set of requirements, analyses of how each of the proposed solutions did or did not meet the requirements, etc. It wasn't until we had actually collected all that info that we let people open PRs to propose/advocate for a specific solution. We relied on the issue mechanism we showed as a way for people to ask questions and gain more context.

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Austin Wimberly16:10:32

oh man...let the puns fly!

Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:38

Leave that joke at the station next time

Jason Hobbs16:10:57

is there a #dadjokes channel? <groan>

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Randy Shoup16:10:57

Let's stay on track here

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Adam Eury - Nike - Release Deploy Lead16:10:17

the puns should continue until the naming of things improves

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:19

oh no… I can see this going off the rails…

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TIL: Resolution protocol! A quick scan gives me the feeling they are similar in spirit.

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It's really anyone who is willing to participate in the discussion.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:00

awesome thanks @jonathan_moore. Are you as the Chief Architect the tie breaker? I image you want someone to have a final say.


In this case, yes, we got down to two choices that seemed to have equal support/acceptance, and I made the final call.


But there have also been cases where consensus gets reached on one option, and that's always my preference. I have not yet run into a situation where the broader technical community wanted to choose something that I thought was actively problematic enough that I needed to intervene.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:56

I think providing the context behind the decision is key, that's what we miss often ourselves and I believe that creates the friction. If people have a clear understanding of the context it's often they'll come to the same conclusion.


What I eventually came to understand was that people often agreed about assessments: that option A is better than option B for characteristic X, and option B is better than A for characteristic Y. But people actually disagreed about whether X or Y was more important.

Jason Hobbs16:10:07

“choo choo choose… concourse” - gotta give him credit a little bit tho for real

Zell Gagnon16:10:50

It’s weird that this talk is about trains, Concourse gives you a great runway for airport jokes

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist16:10:37

And you wonder why some towns actually formed where they did... interesting


We are actually about to reference something we did called "boarding groups"...

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:58

Yes, "my job will go away if we change"

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:06

I try to point out far more interesting work they COULD be doing.

Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev17:10:31

I would love to be able to stay to do interesting work, but I keep being asked to work elsewhere...

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:42

Management makes weird decisions


Generally, what we found was that we had a bajillion separate installations of CI/CD tools, and it was rare to find someone whose full time job was running each of them. So fortunately, we didn't really threaten anyone's job directly, because we were just freeing up their time to work on the other stuff they were already working on. In the cases where there was a small team, we encouraged them to become the Concourse experts for their department and move up the stack to focus on implementing better CI/CD practices instead.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:02

We did something similar. They either joined us in CD Platform or joined a product team.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:16

yeah that's a good point, that's what we saw as well, many teams didn't really enjoy running their own Jenkins

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:29

Yep. And when we took those over and started systematically migrating and shutting them down, it really made cross-org collaboration on good CD practices a lot easier.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:10

Great example of a vested interest fighting change. Local optimization for Erie!

Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist16:10:55

So... Erie was leery?

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist16:10:16

This session though, is really driving home the importance of training for an organization... #dadjokes

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:19

I get this from test automators all the time. Tricky

Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:31

Rowdies, causing a ruckus

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Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems16:10:45

The train analogy is particularly good because its easy to visualize. When I talk about work problems, I don't think I communicate in this type of clear and comprehensable way. Good to think about over the next few days.

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Dave Stanke - DORA.dev16:10:24

*R*einforcing *O*perational *W*ork *D*iscipline *I*n *E*nterprise *S*ettings

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Michael Winslow16:10:55

Just now??? Fast!

Cliff Bender - Software Architect 3 - Hyland16:10:49

@jonathan_moore @michael_winslow what was your process and tooling you used for your ADRs? Once an ADR was "complete", what is your process to revisit or update it?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:26

I love this focus on communication. Lots of change efforts suffer because the champions of change suffer from the naive realism fallacy and assume that their view is not just correct but obviously correct.

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Generally, we kept the ADRs in our source control system, and develop them as pull requests/issues on Markdown files kept in the repository. Once ADRs are finalized, we have an index of them in a Well Known Wiki Location where links get published. We haven't been doing this long enough to revisit/update anything yet, so...suggestions welcome!

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:59

maybe have the Wiki as a static website generated out of the MD files, triggering a redeployment through the PR in GitHub once you update the info in the MD file?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:32

@jonathan_moore we have a very similar process ourselves but it's isolated to the one CI/CD platform, bringing in the RFC concept. We've recently been inspired by the One nice aspect of the metadata at the top is that you can build a nice index of the previous and current proposals:


We don't generate ADRs very quickly, so we haven't developed any special tooling for this. Usually updating a Wiki page with a link (and maybe an exported PDF) has scaled pretty well so far. But I like the idea of generating a site from the repository sources!

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:19

One thing I continue to struggle with for these platform adoption initiatives is how much to rebuild documentation for an internal context vs asking developers to read existing documentation. I often find the latter fails regularly and almost always necessitates building the internal documentation/videos/etc. It takes a huge amount of time though 😞

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:00

and in my experience, to make the 'documentation' reentrant, living, emergent, with learning and evolution

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:05

same here. A lot of people dont like reading the perfect documentation I spent hours writing and they ask for a training session instead (which is not scalable in a big company)

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:32

“don’t want to be left behind” < early majority reasoning (via Crossing the Chasm)

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty16:10:08

I've heard ADKAR in a training curriculum context, this is the first time I've heard it about change management at large. Now that you say it, it feels obvious to use this in change communication - of course, a lot of change communication is about education!  🤯


One of the things I should mention: we partnered heavily with HR on this, particularly with someone who specializes in organizational change management: she's really the one who introduced us to ADKAR and helped us think through it. So I've actually only encountered it in a change communication setting. 🙂

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty17:10:24

Wow that is interesting @jonathan_moore - HR is often an underused partner in transformation but that is a great way to engage them.


Yes, we had two HR folks that were first-class members of the program team that designed and ran the transformation. Super valuable, would include again. 🙂

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We ended up starting with the existing documentation as a "101 level" course, and just added documentation as a "102 level" course that talked about any differences/info that were specific to our context.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:18

ohhhh that's a great idea @jonathan_moore, so basically accumulate existing public documentation into a "path" and then provide your own context on top of it... nice! Thank you!


Right. So, for example, Concourse supports multiple backends for handling secrets. We went with an existing external tutorial for the 101-level course, but the 102-level course talks about the specific backend we use at Comcast.


“Your team didn’t get any short term value from moving to ConcourseCI — it’s a lot of short-term work for no apparent short-term gain…” And yet there’s so much obvious value in standardizing “undifferentiated heavy lifting”

Paul Pennel - he/him - Edward Jones16:10:49

What drove the choice of Concourse over Jenkins?

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Dominic Laycock16:10:24

The snark in me wants to say “having used Jenkins”

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Michael Winslow16:10:54

Jenkins had its issues, but did work well for many of our teams. There was an existing internal Concourse community run by at least one of our distinguished engineers. They had a very mature implementation and knew how to demonstrate the value very well. The Jenkins teams were more spread out.

Dominic Laycock16:10:13

That’s interesting, we are also trying to standardize on CI tooling, does it follow that the tools used by the teams that are doing CICD really well would be a good factor in the tool selection? Or am I reading too much into that?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:22

@michael_winslow did you all build some kind of framework/library around Concourse? Or did you have each team define their own pipeline and scripts?

Paul Pennel - he/him - Edward Jones16:10:13

As an FYI we have a library used by everyone in Jenkins today.


@arthur.maltson We've taken a community approach. Teams are responsible for writing their own pipeline and scripts, but one of the things that we like about Concourse is that it has a very modular architecture. We have an inner source repository called "Recipes" that hosts a number of reusable scripts ("tasks" in Concourse parlance) that teams can mix and match from.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:13

@jonathan_moore interesting, sounds like where we initially started as well but we found teams got very "creative" in getting to production and would skip critical steps.

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)16:10:41

who wrote all that test automation? Was it the teams writing their own or part of platform capability?

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:24

Very curious here. My feeling is most should be on teams

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:49

Maybe not security and other compliance tests

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:46

Tests are most effective when they are the documentation for how the system will work. If someone automates testing for me, then each of us is writing code based on our understanding of the desired outcomes. That doubles the chances of misunderstanding and the possibility of two different misunderstandings. It also delays quality feedback.

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:18

Bryan does that include compliance testing though? Should that be done by a governance team?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:35

I'm only referring to behavior, not compliance or security. The teams cannot define that. Compliance and Security do. The platform should alert to issues as early as possible though.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:59

So, how can the platform make it easy for Compliance to inject audit gates?

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:30

This is a question that is still a matter of learning for us

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:55

This last talk just gave me a method to start the conversation I think

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:19

@jwillis gave a talk to us and talked about some concepts there I really liked.


In this case, it was the dev team that built/operated (evolved?) that service.

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:14

@jonathan_moore, @michael_winslow: awesome talk! Could really connect with what I am going through right now and took plenty of notes. Would love to connect and swap stories. Since you folks announced it publicly here, I will hold you on the offer 😉

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Sure! Best place to find me is on Twitter:


Another great example of measuring the externalized costs of every team making local decisions — did I get that “banker talk” right, @levi.geinert @rshoup?

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Randy Shoup16:10:06

I personally come at this from environmental economics more than banking -- pollution, habitat destruction, climate change, etc., are the ultimate negative externalities.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:54

The global benefits of standardization (architecture) are not always apparent locally

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:45

Does anyone have good strategies for this? How do you win them over?

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)16:10:10

agreed. Focus the story on the ability to spend their time on innovation and not the undifferentiated heavy lifting.

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)16:10:40

Would you like to hand craft a Jenkins for 3 weeks or would you like to push this button and be writing come app code?

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)16:10:31

Follow the paved road and the architects and security will be more open to signing of your production release


We definitely ran into teams who said "We're already doing CI/CD on <something-other-than-Concourse>. Do we need to change?" I found the most effective reframing was that this was not actually about that team, but about something the larger organization was going to achieve together. "It's not about you, it's about us". That helped a lot.

Nick Eggleston (free radical)19:10:30

It’s also about future you, or future others moving to different teams

Dave Shepherd16:10:14

Are you doing the same things on premise vs the cloud?


^^ for sure, but so well put by @jonathan_moore!

archana kataria16:10:18

I believe it is balancing speed against standardization

Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:18

@jonathan_moore @michael_winslow I love the conversational presentation style - thank you

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Austin Wimberly16:10:19

@jonathan_moore and @michael_winslow - Love the talk and the theme of the talk...would love to connect and talk further as well!


Sure! Best place for me would be to find me on Twitter:


Thank you @jonathan_moore and @michael_winslow!!!

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Rob Ables16:10:27

Great presentation! Thank you.

Mark Fuller16:10:37

Great talk!

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Christopher S Donahue16:10:39

Thanks for sharing!

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This is a couple of years ago at this point, so my recall might be a little hazy! But one main area was that we liked Concourse's multi-tenancy support/architecture. But the reality is that we quickly determined, as we looked through all the proposed solutions against our requirements, that we could probably have been successful with any number of specific CI/CD platforms.

Jason MacZura16:10:49

Fantastic presentation.

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Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)16:10:49

@jonathan_moore - We're working on standardising the undifferentiated heavy lifting and would also like to share stories. Great presentation, thank you.

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Ganga Narayanan16:10:50

Thank you!

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Please welcome @drjgoosbysmith Goosby Smith!!!

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Yong Lai16:10:16

👏 awesome!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:18

Great talk! @jonathan_moore and @michael_winslow !! How did u come up with the railroad metaphor?


Hmm, I'm not sure I remember how the idea came to us! But I got to do a lot of reading/research about the history of trains as a result. 😄


Thanks for introducing me to @drjgoosbysmith, Dr. @nicolefv !! 🙂

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Sam Yeats16:10:23

Brilliant change story 🙌

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)16:10:41

Welcome @drjgoosbysmith!

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Istvan Bathazi16:10:00

👏 thanks for sharing

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:10

Increase human thriving in the workplace

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)16:10:11

There's a training SaaS company in Indy that has built their culture/mission around this phrase "Do Better Work" ... "When we do better work, we live better lives." They've put out some good content in this domain.

Michael Winslow16:10:14

Thanks everyone!

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João Acabado - Principal Engineer - Sky UK16:10:41

@jonathan_moore @michael_winslow thanks for the talk, are you only using Github to manage the tracking over ADRs? I feel a gap when trying to follow-up from analysis to implementation, any thoughts on that?

Istvan Bathazi16:10:14

combine ghe version control md files and issue/pull request approvals

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)16:10:28

I've used ADRs in code and any follow up goes into the same repository. It's not a static point in time document but lives and evolves with PRs

Istvan Bathazi16:10:21

we used some "central" repo with issue to track similar request... but dedicated repo is much better approach


We have one ARCH org for the whole Architecture Guild, and then each working group gets a repo.


WGs often produce multiple ADRs over their lifetime, so yes, they are living repos.

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Dr. J16:10:37

Hi all! 👋:skin-tone-5:

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:53

Garden metaphor - and those who hire are gardeners

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@drjgoosbysmith on the need to define variables clearly and precisely and correctly — oh, the memory of the pain of getting this wrong is all coming back to me now, @nicolefv!! 😆 😆 😆

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to get the outcomes we want, we need to know what our goals are and be clear about it ! @drjgoosbysmith is one of the best

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Ganga Narayanan16:10:54

Reminds me of the weeds that I need to get rid of in my backyard!


😆 😆 😆

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Randy Shoup16:10:29

Love this metaphor

Dr. J16:10:44

Thank you!


oooo I love me a 2x2

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:35

I love that analogy, and diverse gardens are better for the environment and wildlife. Love it.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:55

What are the various attributes being measured when evaluating diversity... important question related to definitions

Larry Abel - PnC DevOps at USAA16:10:59

Great metaphor @drjgoosbysmith Thank you.

Larry Abel - PnC DevOps at USAA16:10:59

Great metaphor @drjgoosbysmith Thank you.

Dr. J16:10:58

👋:skin-tone-5: Thank you!!


i'm sure she'll get there


this is just the setup!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:24

Inclusivity > Diversity


Love this — I often conflate these in my head, and @drjgoosbysmith examples are so stunningly effective at separating the two!

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Shalini Nair16:10:04

Great illustration, Dr J

Dr. J16:10:31

Sometimes simple is best! Thank you!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:12

Great analogy @drjgoosbysmith

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations16:10:20

I’m really appreciating this extension of the gardener metaphor!


(In my introductory remarks, I admitted that when I first read her book 3 years ago, I had conflated them in my head. But not on my second reading!!! 🙏

Dr. J16:10:13

In the book I think I used an airplane metaphor. I came up with the garden later. And it keeps developing!

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:50

This is a brilliant way to understand this

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Dr. J16:10:46

Thank you!


(Also very much appreciating that the gardening metaphor was also mentioned by @david627 and @jessica.reif on Day 1.)

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Randy Shoup16:10:13

So clear and evocative

Dr. J16:10:39

I’m so glad you can see it!


omg we're 3 min in and this talk is already brilliant

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Dr. J16:10:21

You are such an amazing mentor


and you too! I'm so grateful for how much you've taught me through the years. you helped teach me so many of these things "before it was cool". a queen 👑

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)16:10:18

I am so proud to have @drjgoosbysmith. presenting her important work at DevOps Enterprise!

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Adam Eury - Nike - Release Deploy Lead16:10:43

two presentations in a row with very well selected metaphors for simplification!!!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:53

Various dimensions of diversity...

Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:58

"Some of us haven't had a hard time staying at home because we live very quiet lives" - so very much this

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Dr. J16:10:12

That’s me!!!

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:10

Same - I was actually fine with not going to the office

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)16:10:09

This chart is so useful

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Dr. J16:10:32

It’s based on Marilyn Loren’s research

Alok - Infosys16:10:10

love the garden metaphor!

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Dr. J16:10:20

I was looking for something simple and natural

Mariya Ghadiali16:10:22

Great presentations this morning. Loved the Railroad story tremendously and the current one.

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Dr. J16:10:35

The rail road was awesome!

Ganga Narayanan16:10:37

From clearing toxic waste to building train tracks and now beautiful gardens. 🙂

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I love how in @drjgoosbysmith book describes these orthogonal dimensions — splits all those fuzzy notions of inclusion and diversity into very precisely defined constructs.

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Dr. J16:10:06

It’s just so much to think about. That’s why I say that the technical mind is so needed in the areas of diversity and inclusion!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:03

The Railroad and the Garden

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(isn’t it kind of interesting/funny that the last talk about was about benefits of standardization, you know? 🙂

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)16:10:00

YES! Never again “women and minorities.”

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Dr. J16:10:10

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:03

I am in awe of you. I need a Dr. J action figure. And one for my three boys.


lol shout out to "the majorities" in the slack

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive16:10:13

Both-and thinking -- avoid false dichotomies. Love this so much, @drjgoosbysmith!

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Dr. J16:10:08

Yes! The gray area is where the value is!

Javier Magaña - Walmart16:10:16

interesting... hey majorities.

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Dr. J16:10:35

You made me laugh, literally!

Javier Magaña - Walmart16:10:14

I'm loving this conversation. This quarantine has made me realize that even if I am uncomfortable around people, I still prefer that than completely isolated. Need some of that external energy

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)16:10:22

awesome explanation on minority/majority terms!

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Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:00

"you actually have to talk to me" yes

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Dr. J16:10:07

I know, right?! Such a novel idea!

Dana Finster - Walmart InfoSec (Speaker)16:10:05

Majorities/Minorities - Yes!!! Thank you. ❤️

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Jennifer Velasquez16:10:11

Awesome approach to breaking this down and relating the topics!

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor16:10:18

"Just b/c I'm in this <insert color> shrink wrap, you don't know me - you actually have to talk to me."

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)16:10:55

We're equally gooey on the inside.

Dr. J16:10:44


Alyssa Lundgren - Centil - Product Owner16:10:28

‘People are a wonderful mosaic. We are all complex hybrids.’

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“coming soon to the marketplace!” “Generation Alpha” — all born in this millenia

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Alok - Infosys16:10:13

Generation true!!

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Dr. J16:10:31

They’re coming!!!!

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]16:10:29

"What's email Daddy?"

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Jennifer Velasquez16:10:45

Wow - “learning technology at the same time they learn to speak”

Dr. J16:10:28

Yes!! Dual fluency

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)16:10:59

going from 2.5M born to 25M after quarantine 😆 my wife is a birth doula and she has been buuuusy...

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Shalini Nair16:10:17

i-generation and technology native - awesome!

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"we should have an equal chance to succeed, have the things we need, get mentoring..." i love this

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(I admit that I was embarrassed that when I read her book, I finally learned that Ubuntu was more than the name of a Linux distro. 🙂

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Dr. J17:10:21

Yes! That it is based on the African philosophy. Thus, it’s open/non proprietary nature. It is for ALL! Don’t have to be a rich programmer to develop on that operating environment!

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:54

Honestly - the reason I seized this career is because I felt so included at this conference 2 years ago

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cc @mvk842 ❤️❤️❤️

Nick Eggleston (free radical)16:10:27

@chris.gallivan can u expand on that a little?

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY16:10:23

I came to the conference as head of QA. I left with a passion to make peoples lives better and an appreciation for the entire value stream. I joined a “band” of dojo practitioners. I paid my own way to visit target when they wouldn’t pay. I stood up a dojo and am now head of enablement (even though my title stay says QA). I found my peeps :)

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Oh, you’re THAT Chris! FCA == “Fiat Chrysler Automotive”! I loved your presentation in 2018! Congrats on all the amazing achievements!!!

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY23:10:21

Gene - I seriously owe a debt to you and the community :) keep doing great things

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Austin Wimberly16:10:14

Unbuntu - a great work for everyone!

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Dr. J17:10:47

Exactly. We are indelibly linked? To quote Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. If you hurt, it impacts me too. So I support you to be your best. And vice Versa.

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere16:10:23

I have two iGeneration people in remote schooling today. 10 feet away from me. I am witnessing this RIGHT NOW.

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Dr. J17:10:24

My Gen Z JUST went back last week!

Austin Wimberly16:10:54

"Nobody cares about what you know until they know you care!" - Former ATL Falcon Buddy Curry

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this is so important. wow on the intrapersonal inclusion

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Dr. J17:10:57

Absolutely. We listen to ourselves before (and over and above others)!


What an amazing talk!

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Dr. J17:10:17

You are so kind. Thank you. Yes

subhashree mishra16:10:41

@drjgoosbysmith You are just awesome

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I wish I could fully articulate how much that still affects me almost every day, if not every week

Pete Nuwayser - IBM16:10:43

I like that there's a name for it.... just wow....

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I learn something new from Dr. J every time I speak and listen to her. she's so good.

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)16:10:01

@drjgoosbysmith Any ideas on an example of a community that is diverse but not inclusive? seems like an unstable/unsustainable environment?

Jennifer Velasquez17:10:01

I think we see that in the workplace all the time. When we get back to office, scan at lunch and see if you don’t see grouped like “flowers”.

Dr. J17:10:41

Absolutely. Very unpleasant. Because you get all of the ideas and perspectives from the diversity. But...if people don’t feel included, and they aren’t connected with colleagues, AND they don’t feel cared for and they have no mentoring...that’s a SAD garden. You’re so right. High turnover. Low engagement.

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)16:10:16

@drjgoosbysmith - You should win a Nobel Peace Prize.

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Dr. J17:10:02

We have GOT to pull together. ALL of us!

Dr. J17:10:31


James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect16:10:20

I gotta say, I am so happy and impressed to be a tech conference where people are seeing this talk and are so engaged

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech16:10:08

So unbelievably rare. DevOps people don't know how good they have it :)

Dr. J17:10:55

Me too. It was NOT always the case. But this is a special community b

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect17:10:53

I have so much to learn and I am glad that others are showing interest

Austin Wimberly16:10:34

He was at Tampa Bay too!

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Joel Boekankamp16:10:49

But he won a Superbowl in Indy :)

Ganga Narayanan16:10:40

I feel that inclusion is not as well understood as diversity

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Michael Winslow16:10:53

Tony Dungy changed Michael Vick's life!

Dr. J17:10:43


Ed Marshall - Enterprise Agility - Deloitte16:10:21

“Humans being” :heavy_heart_exclamation_mark_ornament:

Dr. J17:10:10

Yes! Being!

Lance Taylor16:10:25

This lineup today is championship caliber 🏆🥳 on how to blueprint a change in your org:star-struck:

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“fairness and trust: the two most foundational elements of inclusion”

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Dr. J17:10:43


Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor16:10:09

"Witnessing inequity decreases trust and shows that the workplace is unfair."

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Dr. J17:10:06

Yep. And when we think it’s unfair, we start to exit in our heads...



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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)16:10:36

“Visibility and reward is what makes people feel included.” YES.

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Dr. J17:10:35

Yep! If I’m invisible and you don’t see me, how can you include me?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:01

If there's one thing this journey has taught me is that everyone on the team has something to contribute. "10x" developer isn't the goal. People who aren't as strong in coding have other perspectives that make the outcomes better.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:09

In my head, 10x == cowboy who wants to be a hero.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:19

I want teammates

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Dr. J17:10:53


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Alok - Infosys17:10:12

8 Nuggets for building an inclusive organization!

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Lance Taylor17:10:25

Starting from a place of genuine care about all not just those who are similar is key

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Dr. J17:10:30

EXACTLY! Care because they “are.”

archana kataria17:10:26

awesome presentation

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Dr. J17:10:38

Thank you

Austin Wimberly17:10:32

It is one of my pet peeves that we call people resources...can we start small and just stop doing this as a community?

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David Maillet - ATD17:10:12

I have been trying to do that myself. It's not easy, because it is everywhere in our tech community

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:46

"human capital" isn't much better

Dr. J17:10:21

That’s a great idea. We are not indispensable. We should invent a new term!

archana kataria17:10:46

can we download the same and share ?

Jennifer Velasquez17:10:50

We should flood the airwaves in LinkedIn… open some eyes!

Dr. J17:10:48

I think they have the slides.

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archana kataria17:10:57

I would love for my team to hear you 🙂 this was a awesome presentation

Austin Wimberly17:10:57

It should be in GIt

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Dr. J17:10:12

Thank you, Vaishali!

Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)17:10:16

That was so valuable. Already shared it with our diversity team for sharing out with the whole company, as we make at least one diversity topic required watching/learning each quarter. I got a chance to learn a lot on this topic recently, and some very specific ways that it relates to software teams and distributed teams from Denae For Robinson and @nicolefv:


^^^ stay tuned for an announcement on how to share videos… in about 20m. 🙂

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Dr. J17:10:28

Thank you for listening. I mean that.

Lance Taylor17:10:42

@drjgoosbysmith 👏:skin-tone-5:👏:skin-tone-5:👏:skin-tone-5:

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thank you so much @drjgoosbysmith ❤️ 👑

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Shavant Thomas17:10:45

This was a great presentation. 👏:skin-tone-5:

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Dr. J17:10:00

Thank you so much

Shavant Thomas17:10:56

Also I liked your explanation on minority and majority. I once had a teacher(black) in high school also say she doesn't like that. Her explanation was; if you take all the different "minorities" they will make the majority. We shouldn't refer to ourselves as that. One of those things that just stuck with me.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:48

Thanks @drjgoosbysmith

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Thank you @drjgoosbysmith!!! So wonderful!!!!

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Dr. J17:10:12

Thank you assembling such a unique, intelligent, logical, thought-ful, and diverse group. That combination is MUCH more needed across EVERY human stratum. I’m honored.

Brian Gallop17:10:55


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Randy Shoup17:10:56

Wow @drjgoosbysmith. Incredible.

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Joe Moretti17:10:58


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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:58

Thank you, thank you, thank you. @drjgoosbysmith.

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Dr. J17:10:38

Thank YOI!

Larry Abel - PnC DevOps at USAA17:10:58

So good @drjgoosbysmith

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)17:10:59

Thank you @drjgoosbysmith, so amazing!!

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Adam Bowman17:10:01

👏👏👏👏👏 Absolutely brilliant @drjgoosbysmith

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Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)17:10:03

In awe @drjgoosbysmith

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Dr. J17:10:15

We need new models

Andrew Tam17:10:03

Thank you @drjgoosbysmith !

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]17:10:05

Great talk @drjgoosbysmith Thank you!

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Dr. J17:10:30

Thank you!

Austin Wimberly17:10:06

Fantastic talk...thank you @drjgoosbysmith!!

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such a useful and insightful talk

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David Maillet - ATD17:10:22

Brilliant @drjgoosbysmith

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Ganga Narayanan17:10:22

Thank you @drjgoosbysmith! This was amazing!

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Check out that amazing panel!!!!

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:13

so excited to see @jennifer.hansen there 😄 😄 😄

Jennifer Hansen17:10:29

Excited to be part of this amazing conference!

Dr. J17:10:20

The panelists are AMAZING. ME TOO, @jennifer.hansen

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:36

@chawklady was the very person person at DOES to stop and talk to me. She was very patient.

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Courtney Kissler17:10:26

Thank you for the kind words @bryan.finster and for everything you have shared with me. You have DEFINITELY paid it forward. 🙂

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Dr. J17:10:18

I LOVE your comment. Yes! It does NOT take a million-dollar initiative to make an organization more inclusive! Every interaction matters.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:12

I think this community does a pretty good job of living this @drjgoosbysmith

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:37

Thank you @nicolefv for suggesting Dr. J’s book to @genek101!

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Ed Marshall - Enterprise Agility - Deloitte17:10:43

Fantastic!! Thank you @drjgoosbysmith

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Alok - Infosys17:10:46

very thought provoking session...Thank You @drjgoosbysmith

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Brandon Brown - Nike - Sr. SW Engineer II17:10:54

I can vouch for how amazing @chawklady is!

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Courtney Kissler17:10:42

Wow - I’m humbled by this comment. Thank you. 😊

Dave Fugleberg17:10:04

act justly- love mercy - walk humbly - timeless wisdom from Micah 6:8

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Dr. J17:10:46

Yes, Sir.

Shalini Nair17:10:15

👏Amazing ! The best one on this topic that I have heard... Thank you, Dr J. Would love to have you address our org

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Dr. J17:10:25

I am always open to making a positive impact.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:38

Thank you @drjgoosbysmith - what a wonderful talk - I'd never heard of "intrapersonal inclusion" and am going to have to really sit with that

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Dr. J17:10:08

Exactly! We hear our own voices (telling us about being included or not; telling us how we feel about including others) loudest over all other voices.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:24

I'm just glad there's a name for it! "Create your own psychological safety; notice when you are / aren't"


Please welcome @nicolefv!!! Woot!

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heyyyy prepare for firehose of data 📊

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upvotepartyparrot 6
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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere17:10:45

I'm not even going to try and take notes during this. Just going to maximize the screen and listen.

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:35

Prepare for a firehose of slacks !


my fave phrase: “natural experiments”. doh. or is it “natural experiments” @nicolefv

Ganga Narayanan17:10:53

As a hard of hearing person and an introvert, I've been able to get more out of this conference than I could've imagined, thanks to the format and the different modes of communication (including a Livetranscribe app I use on my phone that helps make sure I don't miss anything)!

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Javier Magaña - Walmart17:10:44

mind sharing the app?? android or iphone? I feel like I misst things since I am also kind of hard of hearing

Ganga Narayanan17:10:38

It's Android LiveTranscribe. I put my phone in front of the speaker. Helps me relax a bit. Conference calls used to drain me out. Now, not so much. Here's a screenshot from Nicole's talk going on just now 🙂


ps it was 90 degrees when I recorded this so yes I am absolutely out of breath 😓

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(I screwed it up when we talked last, too!! 😆 @nicolefv

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:17

Dr. J and Dr. Forsgren - unbelievably proud to have b2b presentations by these amazing women!

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Dr. J17:10:14

Nicole is amazing. She is a rare mix of multidisciplinary expertise.

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:04

Truly. Nicole is a :unicorn_face:!

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans17:10:23

"I'm almost out of Diet Coke"

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:38

Walmart home delivery is how I solve that.

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…and I’ve got six SPSS licenses burning a hole in my pocket. 😂😂😂 @nicolefv

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty17:10:05

This quote! "We're doing very well, we're barely hanging in there" 😂🤪

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:12

I have a love/hate relationship with WFH - ok with not seeing my co-workers (until I miss them)


right? some of us were like YES THIS

Brandon Brown - Nike - Sr. SW Engineer II17:10:36

"How can I miss you if you don't go away?"

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:42

WFH != WFH + Pandemic 💯. I think a lot of managers forget this, everyone's life is upside down, regardless of how composed they seem to be.

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:25

So agree - this is not flexible working, this is a weird pandemic version. We can get the real potential when this passes

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:34

Exactly, it's so hard to judge what WFH is actually like (never actually did it full time). Having young kids at home is hugely disruptive.

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The legendary MSL team — so many ACM award recipients there!

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:32

I did 6 years remote in 2004-2010. The tools have not improved a lot (okay, skype, Gdocs, Miro). But now the "normal people" are ruining my calendar by constant calls.

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect17:10:45

I can relate to opening I never want to go back I miss my co workers

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:50

I'm tired of not seeing my team for beer

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:23

I am missing an office beer tasting for this virtual conference.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:31

Yeah, but there's like 15 people in Finland

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:50

There are 15 at the office because 5, including me, cancelled

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:53

This talk was what I used to say to people "but you HAVE to make it to DOES, @nicolefv is presenting the ONLY data there is on this"

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:16

I have 7 kids- they see their dad again:)

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whoa priorities

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:07

"whatever your primary branch is" - THANK YOU

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look at me being reasonable


volume of work increased — we’re doing more work, not just spreading it out

David Maillet - ATD17:10:28

@nicolefv How did you measure volume of work (timesheets, etc.)?

Topo pal17:10:36

This is the best topic in today’s world

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this was # pushes


rough approximation, but interesting to see how dev activity may have changed


Microsoft Office team: people are working earlier, working later, even through lunch. Amazing stats.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:00

Yes - work expands to fill the space. No more lunch dip.


Funny. Some smell “increased productivity!” (insert blend of 😆 and 😭 )

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Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev17:10:50

Repull of data from March to Sept is where you will see that.

Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev17:10:31

Sept to Oct will show the events of Virtual/Home school.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:07

The press in the UK is on and on about how there should be a drive to go back to the office as people are working less. Lies

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure17:10:11

I am having to tell my teams to take time off, not to over work…

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:17

Work expands to fit the space and we fill our calendars with no good reason other than the empty gap

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Mik Kersten (Project to Product, Tasktop)17:10:18

This is so useful @nicolefv!! So glad you’re sharing it out


i really love this part


tech isn't just work. it's also a place to make, learn, share

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Topo pal17:10:40

30% OSS growth!!! wow!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:41

@dana.finster @subhashree2005 @nepobunceno our leadership needs to see this.

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:44

yeah totally can attest to working earlier and longer and all the time 😞

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:48

open source project creation equals what? more commits? more new projects? both?

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure17:10:01

My teams say they want to work more because they have already seen all the shows on Netflix… lol

Topo pal17:10:05

@nicolefv this is VERY interesting

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:07

crazy numbers, thanks for putting this together @nicolefv, very insightful !


“Yay! Productivity is UP!” hahaha

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more open source -- both activity (commits, etc) and creation (new repository creation)

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)17:10:29

@nicolefv but... how are they feeling? crispy? well done?

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getting there!

Adam Bowman17:10:51

@nicolefv "dope" ftw

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Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit17:10:05

let's have a look at the emojis used 😄

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also lol when people would say "but surveys are dumb we need system data!" I love you all for saying "but wait what about the people!!!"

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:37

I had this conversation this morning.

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:39

workers fill the space ➡️ workers work longer hours, therefore creating more space ➡️ companies fill the new space 🔁 lather rinse repeat

Shalini Nair17:10:55

@nicolefv engrossing !

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:00

I'm definitely in that 1/3, feeling completely unproductive most of the time with this pandemic.

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Brandon Brown - Nike - Sr. SW Engineer II17:10:10

probably too much to ask to bucket into parent vs. non-parent

Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev17:10:25

School age kids now in virtual/home school AND people who have parents who are high risk...

Adam Eury - Nike - Release Deploy Lead17:10:26

I'd also like to see "live alone" vs "cohabitated"

Shavant Thomas17:10:47

I think with parenting you would have a great amount of info to take in. Age of children being 1 of those huge factors.


I think this is important to remember. this is truly a wonderful thing for some people. let's not forget them

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:27

We're an entire neurodiverse family - I'm on the spectrum, kiddo's dad Aspergers (programmer extraordinaire) and kiddo (9) is HFA - they both need major distraction - child can only read/do homework or even Minecraft if Netflix's Horrible Histories is running in the background

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:33

@nicolefv btw, love your camera setup, I'm guessing you were using a DSLR? Love to bokeh

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:34

We just don't know what others are going thru and how the pandemic impacts them.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:57

Keeping People Visible?

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:22

managing energy >> managing time

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:32

Worried about being judged, now we can disclose more - this has developed psychological safety to some extent, however I'm not sure all orgs are continuing to support this effect.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty17:10:35

I think combining this with Dr. J's diversity and gardening talk - we need totaylor the answer to the person. Feels like we've run the "everybody must work in an office" and now, "Everybody must work at home" extremes ... the answer to what people need is.... it depends on the person - maybe the future is both-and

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Dr. J17:10:53

Yes! That is EQUITY

David Maillet - ATD17:10:41

"Many people are given opportunity to manage their energy effectively:

Randy Shoup17:10:49

So insightful to talk about these elements of personal productivity, esp as relates to neurodiversity

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:51

Boxing breaks on Friday lunch time (as long as the pandemic dont close the gyms)!

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure17:10:53

I used to have walking 1:1 with my team members and we did laps in the office… to help get steps in… now we do walking 1:1 in our own neighborhoods while talking on Zoom.. nice to see the background change and see the outside world.

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:53

I love this! Always looking for creative ways to build teams and have better virtual meetings

Philip Day17:10:56

managing your own energy <- 1,000,000

Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:00

...they’ve always preferred WFH, and they hope they never have to go back

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:22

We have more meetings. They are getting shorter. More context switching. No breaks.

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Jeffrey Price17:10:45

lack of dining options... true story

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:31

cooking your own lunch is a pain sometimes indeed haha

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:58

This is so true! We are all local now!

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:20

completely privileged to have built a home office to specifically address some of these

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:46

I've built one too but it doesn't help with the kids 😞

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:31

My kids have to go outside the house and knock on an exterior door. It's pretty effective.

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:25

I think Miro etc does create more safety for some of those with more introvert characteristics

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Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit17:10:29

there are companies that didn't even have laptops 😮

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Javier Magaña - Walmart17:10:43

So hard parenting and working. But we are getting into a nice rhythm... 7 weeks later?

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Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev17:10:59

If I hadn't switched to "unlimited" cable internet back in Jan, my 75GB a day would suck...

Ganga Narayanan17:10:03

Re: too many meetings in the era of Covid WFH, sometimes we may be trying to overcompensate with the need to always be ON, which can be draining

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:05

@nicolefv what's the difference btw significant and significant&strong

Randy Shoup17:10:08

Attention is a resource. Virtual meetings are exhausting in part because it keeps taxing our attention.

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Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure17:10:22

for those with kids, managing their online education is also a new task shifting item…

Rob Ables17:10:23

Too many meetings....I resemble this remark.

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:24

Too many meetings has always been a problem...twas ever thus

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:24

Everyone is still apologizing for dogs and kids.

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Tom Coudyzer17:10:00

I always introduce my house friends when getting "into the picture". I'm in my home environment, they are part so why not introduce them instead of try to "hide" them. A lot of my colleagues know my cat, she's really a star getting into the picture 😉

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:44

Me too! "These are my dogs. Hang on, they think it's play time". Nothing like playing fetch while talking CD.

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)17:10:57

I introduce my kids on calls with my team. The kids want to know what I'm doing all the time and they ask "how are your team doing today?". I spent most of my time with my team, they are my social circle but my family is who I am.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:26

My publisher asked if I can't write less about the challenge of life/work in light of homeschooling in the book and I fought them for it. Clearly unchilded to think it's a minor point

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:45

so true on how this impacts glue work 💯, I always found glue work to be much easier to do in person.

Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:49

One size does not fit all

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:59

Couldn’t get less promotions:)

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:33

the famous: yo need to be in the office so leadership see you there and know you are working and remember you when the promotion discussion comes (like, really?)

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:41

It's the same in other communities too, I would say.

Nick - developer at BNPP17:10:58

@nicolefv the way that you work with data - it is amazing. The attention to details, delivering the outputs. It’s like I am watching DORA presentation again ))

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I love that this was highlighted in an earlier talk too - the daily gratitudes help

Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:17

@jtf gratitude journal!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:28

Team Gratitude in every retro can not be understated IMO

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:26

this is a really interesting idea. I try to do this myself and tried to get my daughter to, but interesting to do it with the team.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:47

Plus side: I'm trapped here with @dana.finster ❤️

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:47

What’s the study talking about this daily diary?


there are links in the deck - Jenna Butler and Sonia Jaffe led this work

Brad Nelson17:10:01

I think this has been hard even for some of us that prefer to WFH because we could fulfill any social needs or get outside of the house in our own time (pre-pandemic).

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect17:10:07

All the pluses and negatives in this deck apply to me

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:41

I’ve been doing walking 1:1 in remote 1:1s. Funny it took so long for us to try it given that we did walking 1:1s while in the office.

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)17:10:47

Team Gratitude… Time to start using those internal “thank you” mechanisms and give thanks…

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:00

been advising clients to force people to take time off, minimum vacation policy

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:20

THIS --> watch out for ppl not taking vacation.

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Brad Nelson17:10:50

Guilty as charged...

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)17:10:57

Dashboard of team mental health? • Cumulative PTO balances • % time spent in meetings • Other measures?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:26

I had all of mine killed. No Alaska cruise for me. Now I'm trying to make it up before I lose it. I still have 26 days to burn before 2/1


HAHA! Roger that, @mvk842 and @bryan.finster!!!

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty17:10:49

Ooof - be careful not to turn people into numbers either (PTO days taken?). Lack of PTO is an indicator to go deeper and check in ❤️, not an numerical score to manage your "resources" 💡

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)17:10:24

Agree 100% was wondering if that could be one (of several) key indicators that WFH mental hygiene is off, especially for people that don't know how to raise their hand and say they're struggling.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:39

We have two cultures. The West coast has "Unlimited PTO", which is a management scam to prevent PTO. I have a set amount of PTO.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:35

Highly recommend trying to find the time to do the Yale Science of Wellbeing course as it goes into amazing depths about positive psychology and ways ahead to prevent burnout

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)17:10:41

Watch for team members who are forced to take time off because they begin losing it… (points to self)

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:54

Yes, how do we plan for this for the long-term?

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)17:10:33

It's about starting to re shape the way we work and coach our teams for the hybrid work environment, which is here to stay

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David Maillet - ATD17:10:38

DevOps = a humane way of making tech workable

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Topo pal17:10:39

@nicolefv Thanks for putting people first in answering “why is DevOps”

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:57

DevOps: A Humane Way to Make Tech Sustainable @nicolefv

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Mark Fuller17:10:23

@nicolefv, do you have ideas on how to celebrate success in a WFH environment?


so many ideas! there are a lot of teams doing great things

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:46

"What does your offsite look like when you don't go offsite?"

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)17:10:47

We’ve done Watch Parties (for a recent retirement) and did the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 through the entire movie…

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:03

@nicolefv is to me one of those people who has single-handedly reduced HumanDebt in SO many organisations with her work it's insane, With all we know we should all be working on it now though

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I saw a team do flower arranging. it was fun, creative, and left something beautiful in everyone's homes

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:13

they should do it after watching @drjgoosbysmith’s talk! Put it all together 😄


oh what a great idea!

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:26

"we can never do college admissions without the SATs" "Oh look, we can!" :face_with_rolling_eyes:

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Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:35

We did a game night - Scattergories and Pictionary. It was hilarious and also we learned more about each other’s hidden talents!

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…and in the case of me, other’s obvious deficits! 😆

Margueritte Kim (CEO, IT Revolution)17:10:14

Yes, it was a low point when the category was boys names and the letter R. Our eldest son’s name is Reid. Guess what name was not on @genek101’s list!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:55

Some managers are suffering from lack of control.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:33

this is so true, though one would argue in some respects it may be a good thing. If someone was a micromanager, they may discover their team can still be productive without them micromanaging.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:13

Oh, I think it's 100% a good thing. 😄

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:04

so much more to be done in mental health resilience


from real or perceived lack of control?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:26

Micro managers suffering from lack of the ability to direct.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:36

I struggle having empathy for them.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:16

My manager is frazzled. We try to help him. 🙂

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:35

He's the servant leader kind though.

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)17:10:20

"Productivity is personal. WFH is personal."

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)17:10:24

“Productivity is personal” 👏

Teri Patrick17:10:25

Another often invisible class of isolated workers are folks who come from a first-in-the family-to-go-to-college/white collar career background. They often don’t have an existing network outside of work to provide guidance -and it is especially hard for this group to ask for help.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:35

Virtual karaoke mobbing

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)17:10:38

Remote beer tasking, remote wine tasting, remote DOES video watchparties... But some of us really need the time not in a call all the time.


Case study of China staggered return in China!!!!!!! YOW!!! A natural experiment!!!

Courtney Kissler17:10:02

Same for Nike - learned a lot from our China team.

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems17:10:23

A lot of this is like looking in the mirror and seeing problems I knew I've had and realize that trying to ignore it isn't always working. Very helpful.

Dr. J17:10:27

OMG @nicolefv if ONLY someone had said this in the mid 80s when I entered tech. My company was great and on the front end of human issues (DEC...think PDPs, VAXen, and Alpha!)...but work-life balance-sustainability wasn’t at the front yet. The current and next generations thank you!

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What is so startling to me is the negative impact of pandemic to managers and leaders — I suspect this will resonate very strongly with the experiences of this community! Thank you @nicolefv!!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:39

@ffion and I are on and on about the people work including the need for Team Relaunches and understanding what works for each individual and each team - THIS is the time to redefine work, it would be such a waste to not take the opportunity

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:42

For the love, don't read work email on your phone people. Email is async, it can wait

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:19

I don’t read email. Anywhere

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:20

That's another one. Comprehending asynk, flexible, etc. time to work these things out

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:02

I stopped going to meetings as well

Istvan Bathazi17:10:04

second that... when they do they txt than you can join

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:25

All the extra time has gone to coding

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:48

There’s always the phone on mute and the hands on keys


many thanks to my colleagues who have done work to supplement my own. huge thanks to the SAINTes team in particular ❤️

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Mike Hoon17:10:36

While in a virtual meeting should video be required? Can it be even enforced? Does it matter? I like to turn my video on but many never do.

Brandon Brown - Nike - Sr. SW Engineer II17:10:04

we have a video on policy. helps connection.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:28

Very interested i this topic. With no camera - hard to connect.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:32

It can help or it can hurt. Can you decide on it at the team level?

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:44

I'd rather have camera on. But a lot of people claim bandwidth problems. One client actually told people to stop using video due to bandwidth issues.

Brandon Brown - Nike - Sr. SW Engineer II17:10:46

We have remote folks with connectivity issues so they sometimes turn it off. But we are encouraged to turn it on when possible. It really helps.

Mike Hoon17:10:21

I think there could be issues of making people use their video for personal reasons. :man-shrugging: Perhaps some are embarrassed, uncomfortable.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:32

Curious how much the bandwidth issue is really the main concern.

Sam Larson - Engineering Director at OneNeck17:10:01

We strongly encourage it but don't require it. Like Nicole just said - a lot of people are working through lunch, or odd hours, so requiring it all the time would be pretty restrictive for people. We shoot for like 80/20.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:36

@mike_hoon Yes - I agree - my observations are that ppl are embarrassed w/ background - they don't have a fancy home office.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:25

Also - some have told me that they don't look good enough - haven't put their makeup on yet:flushed:

Sam Larson - Engineering Director at OneNeck17:10:48

We've also gone pretty casual. Not that there was ever a WFH dress code, but I have my video on with a t-shirt and hat most days - which I think helps others overcome worries that their appearance won't be professional enough, or a pet or child might wander in, or whatever.

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:26

@dominica - there are those that have a genuine near-phobia - neurodiversity, sense of self connected to outer appearance, a few different reasons

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:38

We joke at PeopleNotTech that the worst we look for an internal meeting the higher our Psychological Safety is. If only it were that simple 🙂

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Mike Hoon17:10:46

We do offer company approved backgrounds and encourage people to use them but it seems most people just don’t do it. Could be the a dress code thing like @sg.larson mentioned. I miss seeing faces so wish more people did it might be interesting to figure a strategy to get videos on.

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Principal Flow Advisor17:10:57

@me1342 Would love to hear more. Sounds like I need to read your book 🙂

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech17:10:04

Book is not out till next year but a lot of the hints, suggestions and interventions that we do with some teams are detailed in our YouTube channel where we publish every Tuesday on LinkedIn in the Chasing Psychological Safety series: and The Future Is Agile series:

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Sam Larson - Engineering Director at OneNeck17:10:26

We also publish company backgrounds... although another background has become more popular than the official ones... the unfinished basement one of our senior VPs has been working from during quarantine.

Topo pal17:10:48

I love WFH - I love the extra hour of sleep 🙂

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:39

unfortunately school starts super early here so I'm still up by 6am to get the kids ready 😞

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)17:10:50

Early pandemic, my reaction to leaders who admitted that working double-shifts was draining was “well, yeah” ;-(

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:51

They are reorganizing our entire building for secondary workspaces. We are home for good.

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Javier Magaña - Walmart17:10:23

and I'm still not sure how I feel about this...

Damon Edwards17:10:54

prepare for the “return to the office” corporate wave in 2 years

Javier Magaña - Walmart17:10:31

I will not be surprised. Cycles!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:51

it'll be fun! We'll give you free bananas!


re: video on/off in calls --- that tends to be a very cultural thing, and also depends on connectivity

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:05

How to create inclusion, safety, a sense of belonging, authentic connections, etc. in this new normal...

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:07

Remote Mobbing has resulted in joy

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:29

This is true. New friends through strangers mobbing.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:59

Yes love VS Code - wish we could get live share to work through the vpn

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:25

Although - our GitHub is about to go on the internet - I hadn’t thought about that

Rich B - DevOps is my career change17:10:14

I have no intention of going back to the office


“we are doing more, and for longer”


Thank you, @nicolefv!!!!!

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Courtney Kissler17:10:17

thanks @nicolefv - so great to “see” you 💕

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:22

thanks @nicolefv 👏


Thank you, @nicolefv — so awesome and valuable in these times!!!

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Randy Shoup17:10:34

Fantastic and timely talk, @nicolefv!

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:35

Looking for more effective ways to collaborate without just having a Zoom call open.

Adam Bowman17:10:40

100% kill. Thanks @nicolefv

Topo pal17:10:41


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Austin Wimberly17:10:41

Loving the tracks today....lots of good talks!

Ganga Narayanan17:10:43

Exhaustion and afternoon power naps have become a thing for me. I don't mind a couple of extra hours in the evening later.

Christopher S Donahue17:10:46

Thanks @nicolefv Interesting and Great Talk!

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Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans17:10:46

@nicolefv 🔥 as always!!

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Taylor Barnett17:10:52

👏 really enjoyed the talk and thanks for joining the happy hour last night too, @nicolefv!

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Istvan Bathazi17:10:59



thanks everyone!

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:07

Thanks @nicolefv! I will be shoving this at execs ASAP

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Ganga Narayanan17:10:22

Thanks @nicolefv ! Very timely!

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Please welcome @damon!

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Ken Kennedy17:10:30

@nicolefv Thank you! You put statistics to anecdotal evidence. Very helpful.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:31

@nicolefv awesome and very timely talk! How do u prefer contact after the conference ends?

Courtney Kissler17:10:33

YAY - @damon

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:42

Was that DoD at LinkedIn Mountain View?


feel free to email me: <|>

Shalini Nair17:10:57

👏@nicolefv Thank you ! The future work model hopefully will be influenced by employee choices!

Randy Shoup17:10:00

Everyone's coping strategies are different. For me, it's completely unplugging after 6pm and not reengaging until the next morning. Not engaging at all on weekends. Others have completely different mechanisms 🙂.


“I got an email from someone I never heard of, about a conference I had never heard of”. hahahaha. @damon @patrick.debois256 😂😂😂😂😂

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Andy Nelson17:10:07

is it me or does it seem like this feed has gone 10X today? Probably correlated to the quality of the talks (and maybe the karaoke happy hour last night. so great to see everyone collaborating in realtime

David Maillet - ATD17:10:08

@nicolefv When leaders themselves are overwhelmed and are struggling with their own productivity, they miss what's happening with their team. The details of this talk may help bring some of that to light.

Damon Edwards17:10:29

Hello everyone

Pete Nuwayser - IBM17:10:29

Virtual Paris in a Virtual Background of Las Vegas-Virtual.... so meta

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit17:10:32

thanks for also making the slides so shareable!


yasssssss the best cheatcode

Istvan Bathazi17:10:11

what will be the new name?

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)17:10:12

damn, missed those times, started with NES and SNES haha

Craig Cook - IBM17:10:24

oh, if only I had known back then

Austin Wimberly17:10:00

Unlimited lives if my inner nerd remembers correctly

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:57

you are in a twisty maze of passages all alike!

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Andy Nelson17:10:19

I think it was limited to 50 or something for contra...


(I was amazed when I found the cheat code for MacOS. Such a life changing experience! So amazing! Finally beat the game!)

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure17:10:32

I think that was for Double Dragon and Zelda… maybe Mike Tyson Punch Out…

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY17:10:41

I want the cheat codes to ops

Austin Wimberly17:10:48

Ninja Turtles too

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Austin Wimberly17:10:27

btw @chris.movick told me that last one


Or “beyond the ability for any one person to fully comprehend.”


What was the joke? “If Ops were a game, OpenStack would be the boss at the end?” 😆 (Amazing blog post by… umm, I’ll think of it!)

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Jack Vinson - flow17:10:54

Which variety of "complexity" is causing this? What is really blocking the ability to have faster/fewer?


“If there was a video game called Sysadmin, the final boss fight would be” —Justin Clayton

Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)17:10:17

What was the visualisation tool?

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit17:10:00

you can do such graphs easily with d3 afaik

Damon Edwards17:10:03

its a project at cornell

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit17:10:20

until you buy an amd ryzen thread ripper and run your program.. and everything breaks 😄


(About @damon’ background. I felt so bad that we didn’t tell him the conference was virtual — he recorded this in Vegas. 😆

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Damon Edwards17:10:10

I wondered where everyone was… I figured you ditched me!

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Andy Nelson17:10:27

more casino time amirite?

Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)17:10:25

I also didn't get the memo @damon, except I showed up in London looking for some guy named @genek101 😉

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional17:10:44

Humans still kick computers butts at large scale pattern recognition

David Maillet - ATD17:10:40

"Automation supports the human operator rather than replace" With that as a premise, then teams will be more comfortable embracing automation

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:00

Yes, reserve the depressing stupid work for robots.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:14

Paper: The Ironies of Automation

Mark Fuller17:10:18

And at the same time, one of my favorite quotes from my friend @scott.prugh is that the machines are laughing at us because of our feeble efforts to do their work better than them.

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)17:10:00

Hah. I think I made that comment when doing a VSM of our VM process years ago.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:36

I'm just going to send that to the next manager who insists they need manual acceptance testing.

Damon Edwards17:10:26

Yes. Let the machines do what they are great at. But, don’t be foolish and expect them to do well what the human brain is great at.

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure17:10:07

Bag of scripts - say a prayer…lol

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Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure17:10:57

That should have been in “Cards against Containers”

Dr. J17:10:01

We are all BlackBoxes! Tacit vs. Explicit knowledge...and the tacit does not get recorded into dynamic organizational learning repositories

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David Blezard - University of New Hampshire17:10:10

Yes, the experts and the tickets to them are 100% my life right now.

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit17:10:15

haha... i remember someone telling me that they were looking for a script that didn't run for a week until they found out it was a person being on vacation 😄 (and their standin on sick leave)

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty17:10:23

Let me throw one more expert problem in the mix - you design systems differently for experts vs novices. and if you have a mixed organization, you risk either designing a system where the experts are impeded - OR - a system were novices can easily make mistakes.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:35

Possible to design for novices without adding drag?

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty17:10:13

It is - but its hard! And do we think about that as leaders?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:26

Those of us focused on Dev quality of life try to figure it out. We try to just tell the leaders what to say so that it becomes important. I'm always looking for examples.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:03

Kinda look at most management as people i can get to repeat good things I tell them. 😄

Craig Cook - IBM17:10:41

Sounds like a Design Thinking issue. Different personas involved.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:06

Maybe so easy to use that even experts can use it.

Michael Winslow17:10:07

currently experiencing amazing slide envy...

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:11

describing a system of embodied knowledge.

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Jack Vinson - flow17:10:16

and in systems like this, it looks like everything is an exception?


standardized work!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:12

standardised work = embodied knowledge…. a connection I hadn’t quite made before!

Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:19

Standardize at the right level of abstraction

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:09

the knowledge of what is “the right level” is part of what is being embodied.


standardized work where tacit work becomes able to be executed by anyone

Michael Winslow17:10:57

Make it highly repeatable! Then script it!

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Poor Alice!

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Damon Edwards17:10:10

“Tickets ruin everything!” (ok, really ticket queues)

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Michael Winslow17:10:59

By the way ... I have an "Alice"! Can't wait to show her this!

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Michael Winslow17:10:52

She was woo busy with an outtage to attend th... wait!!!!

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Damon Edwards17:10:54


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“we pay you to have those headaches.” 😱

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Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)17:10:14

"That's what the money is for" ~Don Draper (Mad Men) &lt;-- SMH :face_with_rolling_eyes:

Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev17:10:16

I heard that, more or less, last month. In fact it was phrased, "you are well paid so I expect you to deal with a lot."

Zell Gagnon17:10:14

The trend is that human work ought to be focused on exceptions. If it’s reliably repeatable, then it’s machine repeatable. By applying people to the unique things, we increase value and satisfaction

Michael Winslow17:10:29

We have a famous jeweler in Philadelphia who has a diamond in his beard. The CFO with the mask looks exactly like him! lol!

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:11

That's the Robbins guy?

Jack Vinson - flow17:10:31

Always reminded me of a high-class Captain Lou Albano

Nick Eggleston (free radical)17:10:17

A diamond in his beard. Interesting.


Have you been wanting to share these amazing talks with your colleagues? A big announcement! We’ve heard how excited you are about sharing the videos you’ve seen here at the DevOps Enterprise Summit — we’ve put together a short-term solution that will enable you to share any video in the Watch library with others who didn’t attend:  Over the next couple of weeks, we will be enabling individual and organizational passes that some of you have purchased, and eventually a NYTimes-style gate that will allow a certain number of free views. We’ll give you more information when those options are available. In the meantime, read this post for instructions on how you can share videos with others right now. Thank you for all the help making this happen!!!

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:58

When will the licenses be activated? We want to plan some watch parties


“about a week” I think!!!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)17:10:55

We got the enterprise one. 😄

Nick Eggleston (free radical)18:10:13

Is the content still going to roll over to YouTube at some point? If not, a tier for those without corporate financial support would be helpful.

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere18:10:54

@genek101 where is pricing information for individual and enterprise licenses? Or is that part of what's being put together now?

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere18:10:26

@bryan.finster seems to know something here... simple_smile

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:34

Should be on the IT Rev site to register for the conference. There was a place to sign up for individual and enterprise licenses.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:53

A director in another area pointed it out and purchased for us.

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere18:10:17

@bryan.finster Ahh, I see it now, buried still on the registration page (at the bottom).

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Rob Cuddy - DevSecOps Evangelist00:10:10

Should really, really think about taking a subset of these for universities, high schools and allow teachers and professors to use them for free. If we really want long term success the time to educate the next generation is now.


Thank you, @damon!!!!!

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Christopher S Donahue17:10:02

Thanks @damon Great talk as always!

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Michael Winslow17:10:11

@damon Amazing!!!!

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)18:10:58

Enjoyed the talk @damon 😊

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Andrew Davis - AutoRABIT - DevSecOps for Salesforce18:10:22

@damon where was the link to "The Ironies of Automation"?

Damon Edwards18:10:42

talk about bad timing… the PDF link (that is linked to from multiple places on the web) is now dead

Andy Nelson18:10:42

@damon Where's Alice when you need her...

Damon Edwards18:10:18

I’m shocked I can’t find a downloaded version on my computer

Damon Edwards18:10:02

yahtzee! found it

archana kataria18:10:29

which observability tools have helped you all achieve the goals for reliability?

Craig Cook - IBM18:10:44

reliability is a by-product of focusing on service availability. various ways to measure that. you can create "app heath checks" inside your app, ie call myapp/heath. it runs code you created to verify the service is healthy. or, external tools to measure your availability like synthetics.

archana kataria18:10:54

and also how have you trained developers to instrument code for enabling observability?

Craig Cook - IBM18:10:38

put them on-call for their service.

Melissa Hoskins (Kenzan, Agile Solutions)18:10:05

Anyone else hearing very low audio on track4?

Molly Coyne (Sponsorship Director / ITREV)18:10:09

Mine is fine but let me ask @jeff.gallimore and @jessicam to doublecheck. Thanks, Melissa!

Melissa Hoskins (Kenzan, Agile Solutions)18:10:09

Thank you -- other tracks are perfectly audible

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)18:10:01

@mhoskins I am looking into this - I am getting varying reports. Most people can hear ok. I am sorry you can't hear!

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)18:10:32

We think it has to do with actual recording and not the broadcast.

Melissa Hoskins (Kenzan, Agile Solutions)19:10:04

track 4 with new video is fine now


Posting this note I got from @jonathansmart1, because I suspect it will be of interesting to many other: > Morning Gene, hope it’s all going well. > I’d be interested to discuss that quadrant you had up. I’m not quite getting it. High standardisation is an impediment for experimentation. > > e.g. Six Sigma kills innovation. Top right doesn’t seem optimal to me, unless I’m not understanding it. > Low standardisation and high feedback is the sweet spot for emergent work, product development. i.e. top left. Which happens to be the same place as Complex in Cynefin. 🙂

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty00:10:21

I do agree that standards can be the opposite of innovation. But. I think standards are good as long as you change them often. I think about @steve773 s see-swarm-solve-share idea. Standard work is a way of sharing solutions. They have to be written in pencil so they can be revised and updated as you find new information. When they get calcified into SOPs that haven’t changed in three years...or they can only be changed with a bureaucratic process that’s where it stops being part of a continued improvement model

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty00:10:01

Also maybe ... six sigma kills innovation in the same way @jonathansmart1 Certified one way of working agile model kills innovation - when the process is more important than the problem you solve nd the value you create ... also if you six sigma a dominant architecture you can get really good at delivering that dominant architecture and do some good business that way. But you might miss a new emergent architecture as a result. Short term vs long term innovation?

Steve Spear16:10:25

@paula.thrasher @jonathansmart1 @genek101 @jeff.gallimore @nicolefv Thanks for bringing this up. The phrase “standard” has more than one meaning, some conducive to a learning dynamic, others not. The non conducive has Tayloristic overtones--a to down command and control imposition of (behavioral) requirements to which all us schmoes have to subscribe no matter how difficult they are. Conducive to an improvement dynamice are standards in terms of (well articulated and accurate) requirements of what is needed to meet the needs of the customer. Lastly, back to behavioral standards, standards as used by Toyota and others, standard means hypothesis--one’s best (justified) guess about action and outcome, which gets tested each use and potentially refuted by a single use. Once refuted, that’s trigger for improvement. One thought about this: I do believe you actually need (temporary) standards to improve just like you need a hypothesis to conduct a meaningful experiment. No hypothesis (no standard) means no experiment (ie no meaningful feedback), means no learning.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty18:10:15

@steve773 Thank you for this. Thats a very good way to describe it. I like the point @nicolefv makes as well, how essential it is to have some controls/standards in an experiment in order to get meaningful, valid results. I love this scene in when the everyman hero Emmet gives a speech that to sneak into the bad guys lair, instead of being creative and building a new thing, they should use instructions to build the standard model as a team, and then they would look like all the other ships and not draw attention. All the rebels balk at the idea (instructions! why would I want to do that!) but he sells the value of standards allowing everyday people come together and build something bigger than themselves. Maybe not the most "enterprise" analogy (or maybe I watch too many kids movies! ha), but this is how I think of why and when standards can be A Good Thing 😀


Found this that I thought was superb at capturing what I was trying to convey — an “old but good” writing on “XP vs Cowboy Programming.” I thought the point about disregarding future and past, and factors that are ignored were superb. ———— A nearly complete absence of advance planning. Cowboy coders code in the moment, with little affection for considerations of the future or even the past. However, there is a branch of the cowboy discipline that thrives on the blue-sky possibilities of software, discussing what is going to be done until the sun rises. A disregard for the social aspects of cooperative programming, manifested as a disdain for all the trappings of communication between developers: comments, documentation, systems of names, explanations, reviews. Here again, some cowboys hang out together, often forming GarageShopEnterprises, sometimes, though rarely, with outstanding results. Apple might be an example. A focus on "hacking", or perhaps better, "active change". When a Cowboy Coder doesn't like something, he fixes it. It is this dynamic revisionary style which has produced perhaps the best merging of the CowboyCoding and BigDesign approaches. RAD, Incremental Development, the Spiral Model, and even Extreme Programming are all attempts to retain the aggressiveness and passion of the Cowboy while gaining the benefits of risk-aversion that underlies BigDesign.


cc @mik @jtf @steve773 @tal @paula.thrasher I think upper-right is where work is always treated as an experiment, where work can be repeatable, performed by others, potentially automated, and adjusted. I loved the @tal talk about high culture environments, because to me, it talks about when too much work is tacit, and requires a ton of time/effort/exposure to learn how “things actually work around here.” @damon talk pointed at this, as well — when Alice’s work can be standardized, it makes it done by Alice easier, as well as people besides Alice. (Or Brent.) I think @steve773 would claim that you cannot do experimentation with being able to repeat it (i.e., standardization). It doesn’t mean that it has to be rigid, just repeatable. Being able to perform mass experiments at scale at the edges (e.g.,, Facebook, Etsy) is enabled by standardizing A/B experiment setup and run. Thoughts?

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cc @mik @jtf @steve773 @tal @paula.thrasher I think upper-right is where work is always treated as an experiment, where work can be repeatable, performed by others, potentially automated, and adjusted. I loved the @tal talk about high culture environments, because to me, it talks about when too much work is tacit, and requires a ton of time/effort/exposure to learn how “things actually work around here.” @damon talk pointed at this, as well — when Alice’s work can be standardized, it makes it done by Alice easier, as well as people besides Alice. (Or Brent.) I think @steve773 would claim that you cannot do experimentation with being able to repeat it (i.e., standardization). It doesn’t mean that it has to be rigid, just repeatable. Being able to perform mass experiments at scale at the edges (e.g.,, Facebook, Etsy) is enabled by standardizing A/B experiment setup and run. Thoughts?

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:37

Top right, high degree of standardisation, high degree of feedback, agree Toyota Production System. Complicated in Cynefin. Known unknowns. It's the "high degree of experimentation" that doesn't fit for me there

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:56

There is kaizen, continuous improvement.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:30

Standardization inhibits experimentation

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:51

For emergent, unknowable work, we don't want standardisation

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:57

Really interesting point to discuss! I’m reminded of Donald Reinertsen making a similar point about variability when comparing lean manufacturing to software, and the idea (IIRC) that in software variation can be a source of value.

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Also up there would be Mercury, Gemini, Apollo programs; Safety culture at Alcoa; Apollo space program was highly creative work in unknowable (or at least highly unknown) domain.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:29

Top left is the sweet spot for experimenation, which is the sweet spot for unknown unknowns. i.e. product development

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:45

Standardization inhibits experimentation < I think we are thinking of different mental models of standardisation here.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:50

Top right, minimise variability Top left, maintain optionality, we want variability

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:11

I'm thinking of Lean's Standardised Work

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:55

Is the Apollo program highly standardised?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:13

Or is it highly unstandardised i.e. experimental?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:26

Is there 'the one best way'?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:47

‘one best way’ vs ‘the best way we currently know’


In Gene Krantz book, it was clear that all mission controllers lived and died by their 3 ring binders. Their best understanding of the system, risk analysis, planned responses, stress tested in simulations. I explored this in many episodes of Idealcast, and became even more convinced after talking with @jtf!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:59

I don’t remember where I read this (Toyota Kata maybe?) that while everything in the factory is documented, that document changes 400+ times a year. < you’re making a distinction between continuous improvement and experimentation, right @jonathansmart1?


Apollo 11 simulations kept killing 2 astronauts, revealing that final landing decision was being made to early. Got integrated into procedures. Apollo 13 was saved by documenting what normal looked like, enabling seeing what the genuine anomolies were.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:40

Lean = known unknowns = standardised work = kaizen = continous improvement

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:41

Unique work = unknown unknowns = wanting variability = experimentation = agility != standardised work

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:54

There’s a Kaikaku example in Toyota Kata of asking a supplier to cut costs by 30% (I think that was the number)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:33

Complex -> Complicated -> shallow dip into Chaos -> Complex -> Complicated 🙂

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:44

If I follow what you’re saying, the outcome of kaikaku is going to be standardized work, but the kaikaku itself isn’t standardized work.


standardized work is merely the prerequisite for being able to say, “if I do A, then B results.” It is the foundation of the scientific method. and ability to repeat prior work, regardless of what Cynefin quadrant you’re in.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:40

Yes. Perhaps it's definition of experimentation, I'd expect to see experimentation on top right and top left.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:45

If I’m thinking about the organization, an organization without standardized work might have trouble doing kaikaku because their daily work isn’t under statistical control.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:14

Hard to judge an experiment without an established baseline to experiment from.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:18

Standardised work inhibits experimentation. There is one way. Which is refined, generally small experimentation with variability limited


Actually, @steve773 is dubious that there’s anything in the top-left — the Y-axis is “degree of integration of feedback into standardized work.” I thought that was the Momento quadrant, so clung to it, because it was funny. But it’s really a “n/a”, nothing there makes sense, because there’s nothing to integrate feedback into. 🙂

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:55

Product development with much bigger experimentation needs to not be constrained by 'standardised work'

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:27

| Hard to judge an experiment without an established baseline to experiment from. It's unknowable, it's testing a hypothesis

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:31

| But it’s really a “n/a”, nothing there makes sense, because there’s nothing to integrate feedback into. Might be good to discuss verbally 🙂 It's Complex in Cynefin, isn't it? Unique, unknowable, unstandardisable work. Which needs fast feedback loops, to test a hypothesis. i.e. agile.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:35

hmm… you might still have a baseline. Consider that example of seeking a radical breakthrough of cost or performance. You have a baseline you’re starting from.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:54

You'll have some insight or belief


IMHO, @jonathansmart1 — here’s the ends of the spectrum. Lower left: A dev randomly hacking away on things, seeing if something works. (in context of a high risk, high gain project.) Upper right: A dev being methodical, disciplined, taking good notes, learning what works and what doesn’t work, converging on the right answer. (also in context of a high risk, high gain project.)

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:25

Might be good to discuss verbally < lean coffee coming up. 😄

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:35

happens to be hosting a lean coffee room

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Matt Cobby (DevEx, InnerSource)21:10:14

This thread is worth the jetlag alone! upvotepartyparrot


Upper right: can repeat the breakthrough, can explain it to others, etc. Lower right: gets lucky, can’t explain why it worked (or why it didn’t work)…

Nick - developer at BNPP21:10:23

I think I am with @genek101 here. If people cannot just fork your code and build/run/test/repeat - it's not going to be a success


@jtf Post your link! I’ll join! You game, @jonathansmart1?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:50

> A dev being methodical, disciplined, taking good notes, learning what works and what doesn’t work, converging on the right answer. (also in context of a high risk, high gain project.) For unique product development work, is it standardised work? We ask teams to not take a one size fits all approach

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:45

Sure. I offered to attend the SSH one, but happy to

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:21

Just checked The Principles of Product Development Flow because what Jon is saying reminds me of Reinertsen. Chapter 4 is Exploiting Variability.


Having watched @patrick.debois256 work on standing up this online conference, I observe his paranoia of relying on external services, his methodical eradication of vulnerabilities, his intent listening for weak signals of failure. I’ve seen the massive differences of LL vs. LR. I fear LL. I want UR.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:05

Will share my link as soon as I have it.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:19

I guessing the creation of the online conference was not a documented one best way Standardised Work 🙂 Maybe it's becoming more standardised the second time around 🙂

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:24

Maybe this is the Dev+Ops, as in you want variability (experimentation) for the product development and you don't want variability for the Ops


For sure. But that convergence and iteration and improvement hinges on methodicalness and disciplined, obviously informed by a ton of experience and intuition. And we’ve only done it twice, but I bet @patrick.debois256 would bristle if you told him his work was in the LL quadrant. Hahaha.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:44

Not suggesting LL. Top Left. High feedback, not following a cookbook in the creation

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:13

Experimentation benefits from variability

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:32

Thought: Can the process of experimentation, the steps, be standardized?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:34

and then moves from TL to TR

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:44

Is that what we mean as a disciplined experiment?


I mean, holy cow, we discovered on Sunday, that uploading video Dropbox links were causing intermittent video gray boxes —  I laughed at the notion — but methodical analysis and experimentation isolated the cause, he found an known issue… It turns out Dropbox links are never copied — and that Dropbox files were having problems streaming, intermittently. And thus the decision to copy all video files (100GB+) into Easylive streaming platform. (And not as I had proposed: putting them into an S3 bucket or GCS bucket.)


@jtf I definitely agree. The defining factor is probably the mindset: the degree of methodicalness.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:25

| Thought: Can the process of experimentation, the steps, be standardized? I'd suggest it's context dependent. What works for one firm, might not for another, based on culture, history, etc. Within a context, possibly. With the corresponding meta level ability to experiment on the standardisation of experimentation!


PS: I catch myself often drifting into LL, and I know it’s never a good thing, but I’ll do it anyway. (“I’ll only have to do it once!“). e.g., randomly changing config settings. rolling dice to find the one that works. 🙂

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:44

Still, Jon is definitely poking at a point in the model that I think isn’t totally settled in my mind. I’ve started by framing this as “how could this be true”, however I’m not fully satisfied yet.


Totally. Might be that standardized work is an unsuitable name, because it conjures up too many, umm…. things…

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:12

Yes, it could be terminology and the web of meaning.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:16

I interpret it in the lean production sense, minimise variability, which is fine for knowable, repeated, work. It's a killer for unknown work, unique product development, where we want variability, to be able to experiment, to be able to test a hypothesis


@jtf @jonathansmart1 Wanna do quick Zoom meetup? (I realized I need to poke head into the USAF bof.)


Stand by for link.


Umm, my Zoom room is tied up. Can someone post a link?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:32

Track 3 right now: “know the baseline, use hypothesis, focus on outcomes” 😄

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems21:10:28

Whenever that conversation continues, I'd love to be a fly on the wall again.

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i'm jumping in late, but not all standardized work inhibits experimentation. it depends on what is standardized and what you want to experiment on


I would also argue that complete lack of standardization would render most experiments meaningless. that is, if you cannot reliably duplicate or confirm data, methods, findings, then what you did was not an experiment, it was chaos and any results are as good as guesses

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from another angle: experimentations provide value in part because you can identify what piece of what change provided value. that means that something ELSE (in fact, many something elses) needed to remain constant and unchanged, so you know it did not introduce a change


it's definitely a balance

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OMG, hi, @nicolefv!!! Yes, so true! (Sorry, didn’t see you — we jumped on a Zoom call. Like getting a huddle together in a hallway. I love conferences!! 🙂

Sandeep Joshi23:10:33

In my view every experiment is unique and has a personality of its own.. I view mass experiments at scale as an experiment on its own.. You learn by doing. 🙂


Totally. I love the philosophy of NASA during 1960s: high risk, high gain.

Nick Eggleston (free radical)23:10:36

This is fascinating. I conceptualize the TL as “0 to 1”, creating the new thing, and TR as “1 to many”, produce many identical copies of the thing (like an iPhone, for example), and then iterate the vNext.

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Nick Eggleston (free radical)23:10:42

If u have time come talk thru on Finster’s zoom tonight... link is in #happy-hour

Topo pal23:10:16

About to start now?


Minutes away! All systems green! Maxine socks of +5 saving throws (and +7 for network problems) obviously working!!! 🙂

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Please welcome our next speakers, @jennifer.hansen, @rakesh.goyal and @biswanath.basu!

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^^ and thank you to @tapabrata.pal for helping connect us to them!!! 🙏

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Topo pal23:10:27

Skeptical Business Partner 🙂

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PS: and also thank you to @jennifer.hansen for being on that amazing panel earlier today with @drjgoosbysmith @nazia.ali @diamond.f.lee7 @anamos21252 @chawklady!

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“Capital One has 49K employees, of which 10K+ are software engineers” (!!!) @jennifer.hansen

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