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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)18:10:12

Welcome our next speaker @chill9 !

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Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:29

hi there

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:15

I want to zoom in on the recording of you @chill9 πŸ™‚

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Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:51

I wish we could be in person :)

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:40

Used to seeing you on the big stage


How did you pitch the "development experience" to business?

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:32

Could you compare loss of developer talent, througput, and a huge stack of debt cost to empowering devs to succeed?

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:27

if you care about your customers experience, Why don’t you care about the employees experience who create it?


changing dev experience requires change - a move away from the status quo. It will probably come at the expense of biz features, so I guess it was a tough sell

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:34

Biz features without a strong change muscles are destined for irrelevancy

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:15

Ok so day 1 was great for your biz feature, whats day 2 look like? 6 months later - why are we keeping this?


amazing, thanks!

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)18:10:04

Are you empowering or impeding?

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:16

Some days I feel like we’re impeding when we make mistakes, most days I say we’re actively empowering IMHO.

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)18:10:54

I think if you are even asking the question you are more than half way there

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Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:33

Asking the right questions is just as important as solving the right problems

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)18:10:50

Too right @chill9, asking great questions can unlock so much, being vulnerable enough to try a question and not have it be quite right but you've opened up the channel of conversation is a big step for some people...

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive18:10:52

"You can't just take the unicorn playbook and become a unicorn overnight." Well said, @chris552!

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)18:10:36

That cycle is the lifecycle of every enterprise system/process I have ever used!

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Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:41

I threw that in last minute, glad you liked it

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)18:10:39

It's important to acknowledge that the new thing we are building is built on the bones of what died before us and to learn from that. I've turned to Inner Source as a techniques to break the cycle of governance and neglect. I'll have to wait for another year or so to know if it's worked.

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:15

I fully agree, transformation usually doesn’t give fruit to those who started it :(

David Blezard - University of New Hampshire18:10:55

What kind of pushback did you get when you talked to the β€œcustomers” about the need to pay down debt and how did you deal with that?

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:04

If they are incentivized by features and sexy, why even acknowledge the debt?

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:05

Tons of push back, but warmed up with being able to articulate cost of delay

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)18:10:30

Excellent set of right questions @chris552 thanks

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)18:10:39

bad feedback! Love it, I do the same. The good feedback is warm and fuzzy but the learning is in the feedback that makes you uncomfortable.

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Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:56

I used to want to find out who wrote it and beef up the chest, but I realize perception is gold no matter who it comes from

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)18:10:16

If you can flip a team culture so bad feedback is a (constructive) norm, especially upwards, then you're really rolling

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:24

Great point, also good to look within, do your leaders accept bad feedback for themselves?

archana kataria18:10:28

collective ownership sounds good, however at some point decisions have to be made and accountability is has that been handled?

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:30

Good q - is blame an important thing to reconcile? Or can accountability be shared?

archana kataria18:10:53

shared accountability leads to no one taking ownership

archana kataria18:10:12

and it is not about blame it is about owing the end to end experience at a stakeholder level...

archana kataria18:10:21

and friction is real

archana kataria18:10:13

I am curious to learn how t-mobile has solved this

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:38

If something goes wrong and we’re all the same soup, don’t you think the biggest impacted person/team would be incentivized to fix/revert/etc? It’s a challenge and at the end of the day there are shoulders which it could fall on if the first question is β€œwhy didn’t they team take care of that” - it might be the wrong question... and to back up. β€œWhy didn’t we catch this before the problem?”, β€œhow can we be empowered to help more?” Incidents are not always a bad thing if you’re able to change because of them and get a ROI

Ricardo Viana18:10:46

How do you plan on incorporating Sprint's learnings with your own?

Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:25

It’s a huge monolith, a lot of patience and agree on principles first

Ricardo Viana18:10:54

Oh, wow. I worked on a similar project a few years ago. Most of the monolith is really in the minds. It's not even the monolith per se, it's a lack of expression of intent, understanding of the real functionality, and no doubt, lack of meaningful automated tests. Ok, I may be projecting here (ha!) but I'm betting it's not too far. Best of luck and thanks for the talk!

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Ken Kennedy18:10:02

Thank you @chris552

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Chris Hill - T-Mobile18:10:42

Nice to hear from you Ken! Hope all is well!

Robin Morrison (Agile Solutions)18:10:18

Really appreciate the focused points on onboarding and focusing on making a positive developer experience.

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)18:10:13

Welcome @roman and @manja.lohse!

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit18:10:27

Hello y'all. Thanks for being here πŸ™‚

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit18:10:43

Greetings from Austria / Germany πŸ™‚

Ryan Dobson - Motorola Solutions - RadioCentral18:10:44

Really excited for this session…

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Manja Lohse18:10:08

Hello :star-struck:

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit18:10:29

Disruptive change in the automotive industry -> i love how this fits to the project to product book at bmw :D

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit18:10:13

me speaking way too fast in 3..2..1, but don't be afraid. I wrote a blog post with a lot of further references here:

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty18:10:08

This is a nice deep dive from @mik’s keynote this morning. Nice to hear from others in the "planes - trains - automobiles" industry, this is a really disruptive idea in industries used to cycle times measured in years not days.

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Manja Lohse18:10:23

So true Paula - we really have to fight hard to be a software company supplying our products to automotive rather than an automotive company doing software.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty18:10:29

The typical cycle time in aviation is 8 years. Not a typo. I don't know what it is in the auto industry, but by guess the same. And yet how much code runs trains-planes-automobiles these days? millions. Its a hard culture shift

Manja Lohse19:10:19

definitely... even though for automotive, cycle times are "only" about 4 years 😏

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty18:10:00

Most honest value stream πŸ˜‚

Rajat Bhatnagar19:10:45

@roman @manja.lohse Now that you've increased your build frequency, how are you meeting the need to test your apps more frequently?

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit19:10:14

we are investing in test hardware and making testing easier. at the same time we invest heavily in simulators / virtualisation.. because we will never have enough hw

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit19:10:53

gary gruver discusses this in the hp firmware story. he said that there will never be enough printers to test everything πŸ˜„

Rajat Bhatnagar19:10:38

Thanks! I will reach out to you on LinkedIn to take this offline

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty19:10:50

This is so true. Especially in the physical world. Even if you can test, machining a test part costs major $$ and time. Its painful enough there's a bit of a culture not to do it too much (my experience). And sometimes you can't replicate a 20 year old machine...

Philip Day19:10:30

@manja.lohse would love to hear more about your challenges with budgeting

Manja Lohse19:10:54

well, basically we are still stuck with yearly budgeting cycles that give us little flexibility to react to changes in the market... so we bet on each of our products at some point in time rather than acting in an agile way

Philip Day19:10:59

ah... have you tried to propose a better way?

Philip Day19:10:29

we've gone big on budget in a similar way to what you describe

Philip Day19:10:20

I'm searching for a better model to propose that supports enterprise agile / value stream flow, but also gives feeling of control/reassurance to senior leadership

Manja Lohse19:10:22

we are actually currently working on a proposal that does exactly what you are looking for as well

Manja Lohse19:10:17

unfortunately we don't have anything yet that I could claim will most likely work for us

Manja Lohse19:10:53

(and that senior management will agree too...)

Philip Day21:10:47

good luck - keep in touch!

Philip Day21:10:07

I'm @PhilipDayUK on twitter

Manja Lohse19:10:56

Thank you Philip

Hemadri Dasari19:10:50

Any other recommendations of dashboard software others used in financial industry going through tech transformation

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit19:10:54

do you mean general dashboard frameworks? I'm afraid most open source solutions are in a rather sorry state as the dashboard craze seemed over.

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit19:10:07

there are some great saas solutions afaik

Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)19:10:39

We can talk about measuring PS, to get benchmarks for culture. (if that is helpful)

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit19:10:44

we currently use the westrum model to measure it quarterly in my team. and ENPS

Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)19:10:45

So I work at a place that makes a product that evaluates PS over time - I took the final slide as you wanting to do more in that area. Could also be me misreading πŸ˜„

Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)19:10:37

As in if you're happy with what you've got, I won't be a pest.

Roman Pickl - technical pm - Elektrobit19:10:25

i think atm the google/microsoft form is enough πŸ˜‰

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:22

Hi everyone! Thanks for joining our session - looking forward to engaging with you all!

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)19:10:23

Welcome our next speakers @nazia.ali and @dan.sloan!

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Nazia Ali, Cox Automotive19:10:30

Hi All! Thanks for joining!

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Christopher S Donahue19:10:28

Looking forward to the Cox Automotive conversation @nazia.aliΒ andΒ @dan.sloan!

Andrew Davis - AutoRABIT - DevSecOps for Salesforce19:10:24

@dan.sloan keeps inspiring me about what's possible in big enterprises. We met last year to discuss how to approach DevOps for Salesforce. If anyone else has questions about working with Salesforce feel free to DM me

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:38

Thank you Andrew for your contributions! We have made so much progress in our Salesforce space. Appreciate you!

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:21

We use Open Space Technology (OST) a lot at Cox Automotive to enable empowered problem-solving at large scale. Would love to learn from others who use OST in their organizations.

Misty (American Airlines)19:10:48

@dan.sloan - how do you create the time/space for all the learning for your engineers?

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:48

Hi Misty! Time/space varies based on local context; however, we have incorporated learning into our planning model. For example, when we got the pilot areas onto the DevOps journey, we planned for 10-15% of dedicated learning, so our team members would have the space to balance learning with delivery.

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Misty (American Airlines)19:10:12

We haven't put a % on it, but we carve off Fridays for my organization and have deemed them #futurefridays, our teams have even changed the 3 questions they ask on Fridays to be around learning 1. What learning did I accomplish this week? 2. How do I believe that will help me contribute more broadly to the team? 3. What learning am I committing to for the next week?Β  This shows we are willing to invest the time to foster learning, but also helps align learning to the team needs.

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:19

I love how you all have reframed the questions in a learning context. That's a great idea!

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:42

Was thinking about AA's keynote yesterday and your organization's approach to investment decisioning - that's how we've approached DevOps in this space. When we started the Engineering Capability Model pilot a year ago, we proposed it to our senior leadership team in 'investment terms', which is what led us to be explicit about dedicating 10-15% over 12 months for training, practices adoption & growth, so our senior team could make balanced investment choices without compromising the space/time/sustainable-work-pace for DevOps adoption.

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Andrew Davis - AutoRABIT - DevSecOps for Salesforce19:10:28

Really impressive, multi-pronged approach to improving the organization over several years. Grateful to get all these details, including the pointers to good further reading materials

Nazia Ali, Cox Automotive19:10:24

Thank you @abd3721! It really has been quite a journey!

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Fernando Rodriguez19:10:32

@nazia.ali Impressive journey! I was driving while listening and almost wanted to pull over. Is there a sample of the Outcomes Dashboard that can help inspire us to focus on what really matters?

Andrew Davis - AutoRABIT - DevSecOps for Salesforce19:10:31

@nazia.ali are you all working on any tools to help people participate remotely in conferences from the comfort of their autonomous vehicles? πŸ˜‰

Fernando Rodriguez19:10:40

@abd3721, touche'

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Nazia Ali, Cox Automotive19:10:37

@fernando.b.rodriguez. - Yes! We have a sample in the presentation and happy to provide additional context! @abd3721 - love it!

Mary McHugh19:10:45

Great presentation. I look forward to digging deeper into those articles.

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:21

Mary! Wow, so awesome to see you here! Thank you so much for attending. Hope you're enjoying DOES20!

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:51

Thank you everyone! So appreciate you all engaging in our session. Happy to continue the conversation on our journey. Looking forward to exchanging experiences with others.

Bryan Landerman - Enterprise Strategist - AWS19:10:12

@nazia.ali & @dan.sloan - great to see your continued progress and success. Congrats!

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Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive19:10:34

Thank you so much Bryan! Hope you're doing well. Cox Auto misses you for sure! Thank you for your contributions and thought leadership. Much appreciated!

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Nazia Ali, Cox Automotive19:10:24

Great to hear from you Bryan! Hope all is well on your end!

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Bryan Landerman - Enterprise Strategist - AWS19:10:33

Thanks for carrying the torch and pushing the envelope! I'm glad to see you sharing your journey, it's inspiring and impressive!

Nazia Ali, Cox Automotive19:10:58

Thank you all! As Dan mentioned, looking forward to continuing the conversation and exchanging insights!

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:03

Talking next on Value Stream Mapping - and as promised as part of the interactive part, I am sharing two handouts on waste and countermeasures

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Christopher S Donahue20:10:37

Thanks for sharing @paula.thrasher @Thanks

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)20:10:56

Welcome @paula.thrasher!

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)20:10:55

Yes! The purpose of VS map is to come up with counter-measures to help you go faster, find bottlenecks. @paula.thrasher

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:40

I have to give a shout out here to @damon who was the facilitator of the value stream I am sharing here and the person who introduced me to this concept ❀️

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Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)20:10:23

Shout out to @chris656 who introduced me to VSM. And @damon for all the additional support πŸ˜‰

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Leonardo Maia20:10:51

@paula.thrasher how did you measure the 4 days to 12 min?

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:56

Yes!! 4 days to 12min!!

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:03

To measure the Four days - we took the artifacts that we used and looked at the time stamp, and determined that it took ~ 4 days. The 12 minutes - after automation this was the average run time, same process.

Leonardo Maia20:10:50

@paula.thrasher thank you! did that include waiting time as well?

Xavier Briand - Director of Engineering, Operations teams at Akeneo - en/fr20:10:56

@paula.thrasher just the people that built or people using too?

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:03

Yes, waiting time included.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:20

(The specific process, was deploy the "Code complete" build package from dev to staging)

Craig Cook - IBM20:10:25

come to our workshop, it's a chance to complain. love it.

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Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev20:10:36

"Chance to complain" <-- big brain move right there

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:57

Hey, whatever works πŸ˜‚

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:57

VSM mapping is so powerful!! @paula.thrasher

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:18

I think I have one that was 60 days to minutes... Searching...

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:16

There you go.. 74 days to 22min...

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:19

Another team that I worked with was 2 weeks to ~ 3 hours (Around security reviews)

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)20:10:19

1. Request access to Cld subscription

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)20:10:17

1. Request access to Cloud subscription via manual Jira to spin up experimental infra 2. Get an email asking how many VMs I want.... 3. :man-facepalming:

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)20:10:40

Love the way @paula.thrasher Brings visibility to manual steps vs automated steps in the VS.

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)20:10:23

step by step? THANKS @paula.thrasher. I dont see anyone doing VSM in some of the orgs I work with even though we talk about transformation the whole time. This is definitely giving me the tools to explain why and how, so they dont see me as the annoying architect who wants to do some thinking before getting to "transformation action"

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:28

Related thought on trust: I suggest watching the breakout talk β€œMaking Change Painfully with Conversational Dojos” with Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Frederick if you need to coach on how to have high trust, collaborative conversations. Great tips there

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Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)20:10:15

Awesome!! I love "The Most Annoying Waste Award!!" @paula.thrasher

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Sam Larson - Engineering Director at OneNeck20:10:45

@paula.thrasher - any more tips on making "The Conversation" step effective?

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:28

A precondition to "the conversation" is probably trust and psychological safety. But.... I think other lean tools are good here too. Five whys, etc are good.

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Sam Larson - Engineering Director at OneNeck20:10:12

That step feels sneakily difficult to me.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:57

it is! the whole process is hard. But don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

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Andre Santos20:10:17

@paula.thrasher Do you see value in doing a VSM exercise for teams that don't necessarily have flow optimization as an immediate goal? For example, a team that is mainly struggling with production stability issues - would they benefit from a VSM or should they focus on something else?

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:45

Yes! I think I have an example later (I can't remember) where the goal was quality/defect escape. Though turns out the side effect is usually better efficiency either way.

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)20:10:23

@aasantos They might benefit more from a problem management discussion that delves more deeply into why they have stability issues... but the part of value stream mapping that talks about evaluating options that could eliminate the stability issues would definitely apply

Andre Santos21:10:24

@paula.thrasher @denee.ferguson Thanks for the input! In my org there have been some heated discussions on whether VSM should be applied only where time to market has been explicitly identified as a source of dissatisfaction, or more broadly as a tool to build a common understanding of processes, stimulate conversation and improve collaboration. It seems the latter woult better align to your comments. Really appreciate it!

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:44

@paula.thrasher Curiously the process was not unfamiliar to me... a previous VP was a big fan of "The Goal" and had us all map out a process and find the bottlenecks and identify ways to optimize it.... I just didn't know that was what value stream mapping meant....

Andre Santos21:10:30

It's a great tool, but I've been seeing some resistance to do it because it is seen as complex and expensive activity, as you need to have many people in the room for several hours. So I'm trying to articulate benefits beyond waste reduction in order to garner some more buy in.

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:45

@aasantos Consider having a small subset of folks work on drafting the flow chart in advance. Leverage the bigger session to get feedback on accuracy/missed items. That can reduce the time required... I've found the process flow to be eye opening for senior leadership - they don't always understand the pain their teams deal with to get things done.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:54

So I absolutely have experienced the push back you have about this being a big expensive tool. I was at a large manufacturing firm where this was a three day minimum exercise. To my point on the magic middle ground: If you give people homework/prep time, you can have a good and effective conversation in 2-4 hrs. Thats a much easier sell.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:58

To answer the question on when its not the right tool - this isn't for newly created/re-organized teams. There is not enough forming - storming - norming yet to map in that case. Second, if you have a glaring hole you don't necessarily need VSM to find it. That said - sometimes you need the visual and "the conversation" to get consensus.

Andre Santos21:10:34

@paula.thrasher @denee.ferguson These are great insights. Thanks a lot!

Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop (now Planview)20:10:11

@paula.thrasher How to ensure ppl have autonomy over the scope of their VS improvements?

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:23

I think this is why I ask teams to gage the broadness of the improvement before addressing it. ideally its single team but if its multiple teams the owner has to be higher in the organization? if that makes sense?

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Robert Haas20:10:56

@paula.thrasher What collaboration tools have you used to facilitate VSMs remotely?

Joe Moretti20:10:42

We’ve used Miro and been really happy with it

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:11

I have also heard some good things about Lucidchart but I've never used it. Keep the tool ideas coming - I'm open to learning too!!

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Robert Haas21:10:59

Thanks. Have tried Lucid Chart and it has some good capabilities. Haven't tried Miro. Keeping teams engaged on remote VSMs can be challenging

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:56

I've used google drawings, powerpoint,, keynote, lucidchart, Google sheets, Miro and Mural, and my favourite is Mural easily

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:25

The advantage of the collaborative whiteboard is having everyone inside the meeting and contributing, and mixing collaborative input, voting, brainstorming etc drives engagement

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty20:10:06

Great segway @rhaas! I use mural. Here is an example Mural board being used for a fictional value stream mapping session. Go ahead and play around (add stories, zoom, etc) so you can get a feel for one way of mapping in a virtual worldΒ

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:10:58

@nepobunceno @priyadarshini.balacha

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Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:24

Thanks for sharing Paula! I use Mural as well and love it (along with the teams I work with - they all start using it for most meetings after our sessions)

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)22:10:52

I wish I had Mural. 😒

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:31

We don't tool shame here πŸ’ͺ, anything collaborative will work really well, and I still get the same outcomes with a screenshare (with some extra engagement effort)

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)22:10:52

I agree. I wish I had a collaborative tool for this. 😞

Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)21:10:50

I’ve used as well as for my diagramming needs when talking / diagramming over video conferences.

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Frotz Faatuai (Cisco IT - he/him)21:10:14

Given the Business a tangible artifact after a conversation cements credibility.

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Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow21:10:59

If you have no one with VSM experience, is it effective to attempt the mapping internally or should someone seek out external expertise?

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:39

We just tried, failed, tried, failed less, etc.

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Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow21:10:02

What do you consider failure?

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:24

I think the one skill you may want to tap is a good facilitator. That can be an existing facilitator (agile coach, etc). But otherwise - I mean you have to start somewhere so find a starter project and try

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:26

Listened to examples from @paula.thrasher @chawkladyand an article from Microsoft.

Neil Kalinowski21:10:10

We just dove in. Even having the conversation is beneficial.

Neil Kalinowski21:10:19

(in my opinion)

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:23

Failure in this context was that it felt ineffective the first time. So, we value stream mapped our process for creating improvement playbooks. Ate our own dog food and did instant retro as we did it. We were better the next time. We continue to refine it.

Kim Darzi - American Airlines, Infrastructure21:10:30

Thanks this give me the courage to "try this at home"

David Maillet - ATD21:10:53

@kim.darzi Ditto here

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:08

@kim.darzi @dmaillet63 I truly hope this helps you run your own session. My goal is to make this a more common practice! Feel free to use/reuse the handouts and slides and I am happy to talk more if you have questions.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:09

I can attest that it's a really powerful tool that teams always appreciate.

Brian Crossman - Digital Thread at RTX21:10:01

@paula.thrasher Great overview of VSMs and very pragmatic tips!

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Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)21:10:12

@paula.thrasher Great! Thanks!

Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)21:10:13

@paula.thrasher Great presentation! I've heard the term value stream mapping before, but didn't really understand what it was.

Aaron Brock21:10:17

@paula.thrasher What role within an organization typically facilitates the VSM?

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting23:10:01

Most often there isn't one, but it's a natural match for business analysts, scrum facilitators and even product owners. Some leading organizations have a role like the value stream architect and dojo staff like Walmart, but it's rare at the moment.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty23:10:39

Whatever facilitator you have available? I don't have a single answer there. I've done them with outside facilitators, with agile coaches as facilitators, I've done it (but not for my own team), I had the HR team facilitate once (No really! they were great!)... I think the key is to have someone neutral do the Socratic method thing and ask questions, and also to mediate conflicts. Just not someone on the team because (1) you can't facilitate and participate at the same time effectively and (2) you can't mediate conflict if you are a stakeholder

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting23:10:54

Yes 100% this ☝️ Psychological safety and facilitating skills are more important than understanding the domain or context. The team brings that and uncovers it during the process.

Istvan Bathazi21:10:49

@paula.thrasher πŸ‘‹

Chris Movick21:10:51

I built out a partial VSM from build cut in dev to in the hands of our customers. I did this by reaching out and talking to everyone involved and sketching it out on my own. I then had a call with all the people I spoke with to make sure I mapped things out right and we had a good conversation on the flow of it and items to tackle.

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Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting23:10:09

This is an awesome way to get started without higher level buy-in or a dedicated effort, it pays off in the short term via better self understanding but also gives you an awesome artifact to share with others and spark some progress

Istvan Bathazi21:10:36

@paula.thrasher it adds a lot that you are interacting while presentation is running

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:05

Thanks! There are things to like about the virtual conference format that I can't do in person πŸ˜€

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Istvan Bathazi21:10:05

it is defiantly one of the positive aspect that came out from do everything virtually. I think it will be interesting to see how we as a community will adopt to this new environment and how much we will keep future interactions

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)21:10:43

Virtual facilitation is a new skill we're all learning. We've had some awesome luck with Retro's by going around the "room" for each person's input, interpreted by the facilitator, and once we've got around once, people THEN can just add additional ideas to the shared document. This helps cut down on group think as they can work on their own separately before we go around the "room". I'm going to have to give some thought to how our group might do a VSM exercise with Mural, but they are already pretty big Mural fans

Robin Morrison (Agile Solutions)21:10:35

I ran a VSM workshop with Miro two weeks ago

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James (TeamForm) - helping teams at scale21:10:50

Great presentation @paula.thrasher thank you! Understanding your Value Stream is one of the 3 predictors of an agile organisation (the other 2 being Relentless Improvement and Funding Models - see the Business Agility Institue's annual survey report 2020 just released or I can send you a copy). Visualising the flow of work is critical to making the right decisions as to what to start, stop and identify what is slowing an organisation down!

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:54

Anyone who wants to talk more about VSM – there is a lean coffee led by @steveelsewhere on Thursday, October 14 at 2:50 - 3:50 PT.

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Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:13

Yes!! Thank you Paula and thank you for your excellent talk!

Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)21:10:15

@paula.thrasher Awesome presentation! VSM is "specialized" in our org...meaning there is only a few of us that provide/facilitate (or feel comfortable providing) VSM. Recently a colleague of mine proposed a deep-dive serious on "getting started with VSM" and me and her hosted the first session at our last monthly learning event. I'd love to spend 15-30 mins with you, her and me to showcase what she put together and get your feedback. Let me know if that is something you'd be open to.

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:40

I would love this. I learn something new with each group I talk to. and lets find a time to chat!

Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)21:10:19

Great, I'll schedule some time for me and Ashley to meet with you. Thanks!

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:54

πŸ‘‹ happy to answer questions about our talk From One API Deployment to Thousands, the Journey of an Innersource CI/CD Framework, @roderick.randolph and I are both here πŸ˜„

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:20

And for anyone who wants to talk more or has more questions I would love to connect -->

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Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)21:10:02

Nice - it's "Magic" :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)21:10:20

Welcome @roderick.randolph and @arthur.maltson!

Aras Kaleda/Change Manager21:10:10

change tickets automated also ?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:40

That was another system that was built separately, but integrating with it was a huge win for our framework

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:56

hmm I see job postings for it, so I guess it's not a secret haha. We use ServiceNow and there's a completely custom tool that integrates with it

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Aras Kaleda/Change Manager21:10:49

ha ha πŸ˜„ then we are going in the right direction

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:13

it's an API layer on top of ServiceNow and CI/CD frameworks can integrate into it

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:02

this is one of those undifferentiated heavy lifting that every org is doing, but hasn't been solved by any one org for everyone yet

Aras Kaleda/Change Manager21:10:56

how many CI CD tools you use ?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:57

I’m wearing my β€œbingo” shirt today :)

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:01

is your CI/CD Framework open sourced? Trying to kick off something similar, would love to build on top instead of reinventing the wheel

Roderick Randolph - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:51

It's currently an internal product - we're hopeful it could become an open source product 🀞

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:38

any chances to share with a fellow practitioner? If not, maybe the architecture diagrams and overview of what composes the architecture so I can build on top of that?

Roderick Randolph - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:32

I can say that we use a lot of open source tools (including terraform, ansible, docker, etc) πŸ˜„ - let's connect on to keep this discussion doing

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:52

taking you on the offer @roderick.randolph, just sent you an invite πŸ˜‰

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:10

Hi @roderick.randolph @arthur.maltson I've been fascinated by the Capitol One story over the last few years. I even created our own version of the software clean room pipeline model (CD Control Framework) inspired by @tapabrata.pal and his presentation. Is this CI/CD framework a descendent of that work or something new out of the new studio?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:30

I'm sorry to say, but I actually haven't had a chance to watch @tapabrata.pal's session... is it online?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:39

if he's online he can chime in, we work together now πŸ˜„

Topo pal21:10:49

Yes. @matthew.cobby this is a part of the implementation of what I shared in terms of software clean room

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:35

It's nice to see the evolution of the ideas

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty21:10:33

@arthur.maltson The bingo logo/mascot is actually a great large enterprise adoption hack! When you have to reach a large number of people it helps to have an "advertisement". Love it.

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:51

I think it was one of the best things we did for the Innersource project hehe

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:09

and yeah for sure, can get a lot of designers or devs with a design bent engaged

Joel Boekankamp21:10:28

Any insights on how you got that organic adoption? Was it just the results of the framework itself that teams saw the benefit and wanted to be involved?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:13

Pretty much, but you'll see a bit later some of the things we did to try and help with the organic growth

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:30

What's up with Canadians being the ones wanting to improve so fast?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:54

oh yeah? Very cool πŸ˜„! I'm in the Toronto area myself πŸ™‚

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:36

I'm in Arkansas, but some of our highest performing teams are in Toronto. Must be the LaBatts

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting22:10:42

Inferiority complex? That's my excuse...

Steve Pereira - Visible Value Stream Consulting23:10:16

Hey Arthur! Thanks for once again repping the north with πŸ”₯πŸ”₯ along with Roderick - it's so awesome to see you folks here, with so much progress every year

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)17:10:44

Haha thanks @steveelsewhere, thanks to you @roderick.randolph and I had our first duelling presentation :)

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:33

Does every team control their own CI/CD pipelines or is there one central build service for them all?

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:33

Does every team control their own CI/CD pipelines or is there one central build service for them all?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:47

At WM, we control the platform, they control their configuration. I've no idea ow anyone could control them centrally.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:14

We inject security scans and compliance rules. Don't want anyone to forget those. :)

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:46

We have a feudal system. Every Service Owner has and runs their own CI/CD. It's chaos at scale. We've been rolling out a common CI/CD pattern but it's still very distributed. One central Jenkins with central config is a definite anti-pattern

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:48

Same with us, mostly. Our China branch kind of control it centrally though. They basically give the standard pipeline script to all the teams, so basically everyone follow the exact same pipeline. I do believe each team can build on top of it and customize though...

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:29

We have something similar, basically the original incantation was Jenkins Shared Library that teams could put together as lego pieces to build their own pipeline. The above question about automating the change control, that helped focus the organization around a set of required stages that had to be run

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:56

so in order for teams to qualify for automatic change management and onboard to Continuous Delivery, they needed to conform to a certain set of stages

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:37

and yes, as Michael Pai said, that was the next iteration that fixed the stages and allows developers to configure the stages as needed. This allows us to ensure, to @bryan.finster's point, that certain security and other stages always run.

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:52

@matthew.cobby: we have a Jenkins as a Service. Basically we run a K8S cluster with one shared Jenkins for smaller teams and different namespaces for standalone Jenkins. We build the Masters from the same image, helm chart and jenkins configuration as code file, so every master in the cluster starts the same. Once the master is created we give a sub-set of the users admin rights (with limitations though, somethings we dont want them to change)

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:09

we did always generate a base Jenkinsfile as part of the tooling, though many devs take it and run with it

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:04

@rodriguessemensati.e - A central operations teams for a Jenkins cluster is a good way but let the teams control their own abilities

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:20

Central CD platform org is key, IMO.

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:46

we do, once we create the Master we give it to them (mostly, as I said somethings are mandated centrally, like security configs, IDP integrations, etc)

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)21:10:52

Fragmented platforms cannot be made secure and compliant.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:54

Love this

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:05

When you write code that you know someone else will read, you write better code!

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:42

If you mob it, this is built in

Roderick Randolph - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:00

πŸ’― it bring more transparency to how the software actually works!

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:35

We innersourced our pipeline during covid. Great achievement

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:14

mobbing has been a huge benefit to onboard teams, expand knowledge, and solve complex problems.

Roderick Randolph - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:34

many IDEs have pair programming feature built-in - super valuable in this virtual world!

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:00

Day 1 of covid guess who showed up in our dojo? Woody Zuill

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:37

Large scale bootcamp - standard workshops / curriculum that you gave everyone or a dojo (immersive) approach?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:41

More of the former, I haven't seen Dojo as a concept yet at Capital One

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:02

our workshops would last for a couple days, but not an immersive multi-week Dojo

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:55

We've been doing the same as you. Engineering Bootcamp over 4 days. Day 1 is intro to basic tools, Day 2 is intro to app dev, Day 3 is hands on our microservice template, Day 4 is our UI application template

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:35

yes! So these bootcamps are a bit different, they were more around onboarding new teams to work with us on the CI/CD framework

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:10

to your point, I helped introduce a 5 day bootcamp in Canada for new hires that guides them through pretty much the same as you mention @matthew.cobby, good to hear we're approaching it the same way πŸ˜„

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:38

the first day actually spends time on getting new devs familiar with the business, how Capital One makes money, etc.

Topo pal21:10:49

Yes @roderick.randolph and @arthur.maltson are super cool. And how do I know them???? πŸ˜‚

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srujit biradawada21:10:27

Being a financial sector, How are you very open to public cloud and new tools? You were successful not just bringing them into Financial sector but also implementing them successfully. What measures are you taking or risk factors are you considering in terms for being open to new tools/cloud/processes?

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:00

This really came from the top, our leadership recognized that technology is going to be a competitive advantage for us

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:29

then came the actual transformation, which was a huge amount of work on the dev side of course

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:31

it didn't start there though, I know that the org was dabbling with AWS much earlier. Regardless though, transformation at the entire org level requires CEO and exec buyin

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srujit biradawada21:10:47

I see why Capital one has the name "Tech Company" rather than "Financial Company". That's great to hear that leadership is with such great mindset

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Camilo Piedrahita - Bancolombia - IT Manager21:10:41

we're using Hygieia from capital one...please: share Bingo!!! sounds great

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:11

We used yeoman for automation of onboarding

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:27

I've been thinking of using that as well, but there's so much choice

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:41

It’s old school - node js

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:56

There’s also backstage from spotify

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:18

Yea - AA uses cookie cutter with backstage

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:20

ohhhh! I just listened to a Changelog podcast about Backstage, it sounds super interesting

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:12

since you folks mentioned Hygieia! How difficult is to roll it out and start getting some benefits? This is also in our backlog, but we have not been able to prioritize it over other stuff yet. Any learnings to share?

Zaren Balisi21:10:36

As a former Cap One employee, I can say this pipeline was awesome!

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Stephen Magill [Sonatype]21:10:53

Love CapOne’s contributions to this community. We’re featuring Hygieia in our bug bash ( if you want a fun / easy way to get started contributing back.

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:49

Keeping documentation up to date is the endless task. Keep it next to the code is the only chance you have...

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Jean-Etienne LaVallee21:10:46

Having your documentation live with your code (and having your tooling publish it just like it builds-deploys your code) was a big value-add for us at CapitalOne...

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:37

GitHub Pages? or using another static site generator for software docs specifically?

Jean-Etienne LaVallee21:10:41

Mark down content and sphynx generator...

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Jean-Etienne LaVallee21:10:23

It allows us to review content of docs side-by-side with code... e.g. PR comment: "You changed the way this works, but didn't update the docs!"

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:45

We use use vuepress with a company template and push to GitHub pages

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Jean-Etienne LaVallee21:10:54

(this is beyond just code-level doc gen, but more of the big-picture and support documentation)

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:12

we also included a PR review template that reminds you to update the documentation as you go πŸ™‚

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:09

PR templates with a checklist are awesome πŸ™‚ and yes @jeanetienne.lavallee I mean markdown files to generate documentation sites, similar to what GitHub does with their own documentation (which has been recently open sourced by the way)

srujit biradawada21:10:18

I love the documentation mindset. Great conversation........thanks very much for the knowledge share

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Topo pal21:10:23

Great job guys @arthur.maltson and @roderick.randolph

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)21:10:52

awesome presentation guys! Really really interesting

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Aaron Brock21:10:36

Very nice presentation.

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:15

Here's the links in case you missed them πŸ˜„. Thank you everyone for listening and the organizers for having us! * Slides: * InnerSource Commons - a community that shares InnerSource practices: * InnerSource Patterns, put a name on your practices: * Adopting InnerSource book: * Getting Started with InnerSource book:

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Roderick Randolph - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:51

It was a pleasure speaking - feel free to hit me up on with any further questions! πŸŽ‰ Thank you for watching!

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)21:10:44

And you can reach me on or for further questions. Or just DM me on this Slack while the conference is going on. Thanks again everyone! πŸŽ‰

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Jean-Etienne LaVallee21:10:13

I'd also like to second the value of Slack and custom SlackBots... As a dev-advocate and contrib to Bingo, when we deployed the "onboarding bot" we saw a major reduction in the typical "repeated issues" when users were onboarding a new project. Often the solution seems like a large effort in-and-of-itself... A bot that collected critical variables from the user and then triggered an onboarding job was an "easy button" with a big lift for our dev-users.

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Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)22:10:33

also full credit to @jeanetienne.lavallee for the "Bingo" logo πŸ˜„, he did a great job giving us a mascot πŸŽ‰

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