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Hello, What are the best techniques to address/solve for the Stockholm Syndrome.

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:35

I think that's coming from the earlier keynote from the Airforce. I'd argue you need to bring in new blood, that's really the only way IMHO

Arthur Maltson - Speaker, Distinguished Engineer at Capital One (he/him)16:10:23

and from both sides, from the grass roots but any change there will need support from an executive, so usually you need someone to shake up the executive level.

Carlos Faria17:10:58

@mik Amazing Book!

Carlos Faria17:10:33

Would be amazing to have a deep dive techniques on how to implement Flow Framework! IΒ΄m working with my team trying to solve this puzzle πŸ™‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:14

You might want to ask again in #ask-the-speaker-plenary

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Hi - I work with Mik and we would love to talk with you about this


You could also visit the TaskTop booth or slack me directly

Carlos Faria17:10:00

Hi Carmen. Surre. IΒ΄ll visit TaskTop booth..

John Weitzel17:10:20

@steve773 Fantastic presentation, absolutely loved it

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)18:10:54

Welcome speaker @jillmead2018!

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Levi Geinert18:10:23

"We were THOSE people" lol!

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Jill Mead18:10:01

Yeah we were @levi.geinert500

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:46

Hmm. Is anyone hearing from the right speaker only?

Fred Ghahramani18:10:11

same hear on right ear

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:59

@jillmead2018 Lead time for a laptop? How about a single firewall port opened? πŸ˜„

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Levi Geinert18:10:26

Pretty much anything

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Denee (de-NAY) Ferguson - Director, Technology - Capital One (Speaker)18:10:06

@jillmead2018 crushing the visuals in this presentation

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Jill Mead18:10:25

@denee.ferguson Thank you so much!

Levi Geinert18:10:10

But they were requirements!! πŸ˜†

Jill Mead18:10:58

@denee.ferguson @levi.geinert500 Yes. It sucked.

Ed Marshall - Enterprise Agility - Deloitte18:10:26

Not flinching at flying chairs. Yep, that’s bad.

Jill Mead18:10:14

@edwmarshall3app Yep. True story. I cannot tell you how many times chairs were flipped over and flying in the air. @truestory

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech18:10:45

Absolute best production value I've seen at DOES! Very jealous @jillmead2018

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Jill Mead02:10:14

Thank you so much! I appreciate that!

Jack Vinson - flow18:10:41

Painful. How many have this experience!! βœ‹

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Jill Mead18:10:47

@jackvinson Yes!!!

Scott Dedoes18:10:53

In your opinion, should every company be transitioning to Agile? Is there a typical size of company by revenue, #employees, #customers or other metrics that make some companies better suited to transition to Agile development?

Jill Mead02:10:17

@scott.dedoes I think any organization would benefit from embracing the agile mindset and behaviors.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:56

If some of the POs who are so much better off would have this reflective power.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:52

Cow Paths :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

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Jill Mead19:10:29

@jonathansmart1 Cow paths. πŸ™‚

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]18:10:17

I wonder how often the 75+ questions were answered with the β€œknown acceptable” answers as a β€œcheck the box” exercise. (love the cow paths analogy)

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Craig Cook - IBM18:10:09

process fat. love it

Jill Mead19:10:00

LOL. It is much more meaningful to say process fat. It gives you the visual element.

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Andrew Davis - Copado - DevOps for Salesforce18:10:40

@jillmead2018 very compelling and well-presented story

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Jill Mead02:10:24

Thank you so much @abd3721

Jack Vinson - flow18:10:10

I have a client who have a multi-page review checklist (that has grown exactly the way @jillmead2018 describes here - issue -> bandaid; issue -> bandaid x100). And then at the bottom of the document was a signature line that said "I certify that all these are correct and will be held responsible if there is an error." How about that for creating speed!

Jill Mead18:10:52

Unreal. Yep - pretty much exactly like that. @jackvinson

Jack Vinson - flow19:10:23

You know, it was for a "real" product, not technology. So that checklist is okay. :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing: Even better - as you and Dr Spear described earlier - the checklists accrete over time. No one has any idea why those elements are there, but goodness knows they can't be removed. Thanks for your story of blowing this up!

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Jill Mead02:10:54

@jackvinson Always so fascinating to me. Thanks for sharing!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:14

@jillmead2018 Did people ever ask you what's going on with you?

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Craig Cook - IBM18:10:20

Show me a "Change Advisory Board" and I'll show you a bottleneck πŸ˜€

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Jill Mead18:10:06

Yes and Yes! @cncook001

Levi Geinert18:10:15

It said it went to 100 after automation.

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Jill Mead02:10:17

Our customers were so thankful for a leaner approach. Honestly - they were tickled.

Scott Dedoes18:10:08

@jillmead2018 When you pull back changes are you doing this with Feature Flags? If so, were you using a system you build in-house or a 3rd party solution?

Jill Mead02:10:14

At the time we had ServiceNow as our IT Service Management tool. We created a extraction layer for our API's. Many of our engineers utilized Github as their code repository. Nope - at the time we did not utilize feature flags.

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Levi Geinert18:10:21

"lose the governance ego!!!"

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Lisa Pagnacco18:10:33

@jillmead2018 how did you decentralize your Enterprise CAB? What did that look like after?

Jill Mead02:10:38

@lpagnacco We empowered the portfolio owners to determine whether and how they wanted to meet to review changes. All of this had to do with accountability. They were no longer hiding behind a security blanket of a enterprise CAB meeting.

Jack Vinson - flow18:10:17

"Identify change" == way of thinking = mindset / frame of reference!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:27

"We had the worst NPS within IT... to a score of 60, which is amazing.". β€”Β OMG, so good, @jillmead2018 . (Sorry for duplicate Slack account. Using it from my iPad. :)

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Levi Geinert18:10:52

And I think I saw that it went to 100 after automation

Jill Mead18:10:12

@genek Yeah - it was pretty amazing. I think users were so thankful for a lean approach after many years of circus acts and wild escapades.

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Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:47

"Other teams deleted the Dumpster Fire emoji in reference to us." So good!!!

Gene Kim, ITREV, Program Chair18:10:42

(@jillmead2018 Where were these Dumpster Fire emojis? In Slack?)

Jill Mead18:10:58

In HipChst

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Matt Cobby (NAB)18:10:59

What do people use to show NPS across the org?

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:08

I am making a shortlist of people to send this to πŸ˜‰

Jill Mead18:10:23

Thank you @ferrix

Craig Cook - IBM18:10:13

CAB is really about risk management. When you think in those terms, you focus on automation, unit tests, canary testing, etc. Then you can get rid of CAB.

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Lisa Pagnacco18:10:31

I agree, but sometimes CAB is be about awareness, especially if you're rolling out something that other product teams can leverage

Craig Cook - IBM18:10:10

Awareness leads to dependency management. Always assume your dependency is going to fail. How is your service going to respond?

Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx18:10:27

We literally have implemented a β€œlow risk CAB” which is one person (the product owner) pressing a button to approve deployment at any time they like, provided the automated pipeline has passed all its stages.

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Simon Rohrer, [Sooner Safer Happier contributor] Saxo Bank, Head of EA and DevEx18:10:25

It’s not for all of our 400ish services, only a selected few that are able to actually pass the gates. But more and more are getting there.

Lisa Pagnacco18:10:25

Good point, Craig

Jill Mead18:10:23

@lpagnacco There are other ways to provide visibility and awareness than holding a change approval board meeting.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:38

@cncook001 Risk management or postponement?

Craig Cook - IBM18:10:36

Risk. It's trying to avoid downtime, which is a form or risk.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:51

"OVER THE THREE YEARS" . That's how long it takes, minimum, to make significant lasting changes πŸ‘

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Rich B - DevOps is my career change18:10:55

i never cried but i have wanted to punch people in the face πŸ™‚

Jill Mead18:10:12

Yes! I should have said that. Hahah!

Ed Marshall - Enterprise Agility - Deloitte18:10:06

Chock full of awesomeness. Thanks @jillmead2018

Ed Marshall - Enterprise Agility - Deloitte18:10:06

Chock full of awesomeness. Thanks @jillmead2018

Jill Mead18:10:40

Thank you so much! That means so much to me.

Yann Le Tiec18:10:13


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Jill Mead18:10:41

Thank you @genek

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:45

Great job @jillmead2018 and team

Jill Mead18:10:43

@jonathansmart1 Thank you for watching. I am glad you liked it!

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Scott Dedoes18:10:49

Great talk! Thanks!

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:04

@jonathansmart1 Does it have to be three years? I know it usually is, but does it really really have to?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:08

Depends. Size, current state, history, behavioural norms. In my experience for most large, traditional, firms, the horses it's 3 to 5 to 7 years for lasting change

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Andrew Tam18:10:37

It takes at least 3 years to have a chance to break past having just built a cargo cult.

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Andrew Tam18:10:59

If building a cargo cult, transformations can be done in a year.

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:06

In this story, you are changing your own behaviour. So that should be a pretty empowered position to create change.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:29

Sure, you are not "enlightened" to begin with, so that will slow you down.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:14

But okay, I have not started with traditional firms from the very beginning, so something has always been happening before my time and some of the long-term change has been rather easy and fast and some has taken years.

Andrew Tam18:10:47

Individual change can happen fairly quickly. Persistent organisational change takes longer. In both individual and organisational change, it’s only the first step. They also then have to fight their way through Dreyfus or Shu Ha Ri or whatever flavour of skills assessment you want.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:01

Uhm, yeah. 11 months of skills assessment run by me and counting.

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive18:10:08

Great job @jillmead2018 using the cinematic format for your talk. Super awesome! I felt like I was watching an impactful documentary on Netflix!

Matt Cobby (NAB)18:10:13

sets a new bar in conference talks!

Jill Mead18:10:21

Oh thank you! My friend is a video producer. I created all the visuals.

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Roger Servey18:10:37

Great presentation @jillmead2018 !

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Jill Mead18:10:18

Thank you so much! I am glad you liked it!

Roger Servey19:10:34

Do you have a pair of β€œred tennis” shoes from Stacie?

Jill Mead19:10:48

LOL. I have a pair of red tennis shoes. Not from Stacie. LOL

Brett Hinton18:10:54

@jillmead2018 - so you teased the e-guide - where do we get the details for that?

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Jill Mead02:10:34

Hey there @brett.hinton Sent you a PM

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Mark Schwartz18:10:19

Hello All

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Mark Schwartz18:10:43

Happy to answer questions

Jim DeMarre18:10:03

Shall statements - welcome to government work

Steve Spear18:10:05

@jillmead2018 nice preso!

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY18:10:45

That release cycle is similar to our vehicle release cycle @james.simon1

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:05

So similar, I wonder if this MD102 was the model

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:20

That whole intro could have been about my area

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY18:10:42

Did you have 10 release control boards ?

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:16

I think there were only 6 or 8 Gates internally (suppliers had their own)

Mark Schwartz18:10:49

Yeah MD-102 is just a particularly fine specimen of what lots of organizations have

Mark Schwartz18:10:37

One release control board at USCIS, and one at DHS

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems18:10:53

With your experiments were you trying this across the whole organization or trying with a single team first to scale up later?

Mark Schwartz18:10:55

12-page document to drive the change approval

Mark Schwartz18:10:12

Started with a few teams, then scaled up

Mark Schwartz18:10:39

That's the power of it - you CAN just start with one team, show success, then expand out

Mark Schwartz18:10:50

we did that when refactoring into microservices as well

Mark Schwartz18:10:09

But we scaled up fast once it was a proven model

Mark Schwartz18:10:02

The big project - USCIS Transformation - was about 20 teams. We were introducing it elsewhere in the organization at the same time

Mark Schwartz18:10:29

The 20 teams were drawn from 4 contractors, all working in parallel on the same codebase with CI/CD

Mark Schwartz18:10:17

I'd say there is an opportunity cost or cost of delay to not scaling up quickly, once you've demonstrated value

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)18:10:32

β€œYou can’t change anything in scrum or it’s not scrum”

Mark Schwartz18:10:59

That was just a joke Sutherland and Schwaber were playing on us all, right?

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)18:10:00

Sounds like marketing and attempt to maintain strict control

Mark Schwartz18:10:16

Yes, I understand where they were coming from

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:27

we were fighting scrum bureaucracy also

Mark Schwartz18:10:43

My point is that bureaucracy comes from a lot of places and for lots of reasons

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:04

Well, that would invalidate most of the usual "Scrum" teams. However, it would invalidate the true "beyond Scrum" teams as well... however the latter would not care.

Mark Schwartz18:10:05

Companies like Scrum BECAUSE it seems bureaucratic

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Mark Fuller18:10:40

True for all frameworks.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:25

An it IS bureaucratic. It prescribes that you should talk every day with your team.

Elisabeth Hendrickson18:10:11

I haven't asked Schwaber but I always assumed they were trying to avoid the problem of

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Mark Schwartz18:10:46

Ha @esh I hadn't seen that post

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)18:10:58

Some people (and systems?) are very attracted to Rules and Order

Mark Schwartz18:10:22

Again, there's good reason for that

Ganga Narayanan18:10:25

my thought about Scrum being rigid: "You've become the very thing you swore to destroy" πŸ™‚ - Obi-wan

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:09

There is a lot of structure in Scrum.

Mark Schwartz18:10:21

@ganga.n Yeah, it's funny, though. Scrum deliberately provides structure within which you can continuously improve

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Ganga Narayanan18:10:00

Just 16 pages though!

Mark Schwartz18:10:43

It turned out for us, though, that even the structure needed improvement

Mark Schwartz18:10:04

That's why i say bureaucracy is so interesting

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)18:10:21

The rules are there for certain reasons... but when the underlying reasons change, the rules are no longer applicable β€” but now a new iteration needs to begin to change the rules...

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:45

For me it seems using a strong structure like scrum is good for getting started then improving away from as you mature. Thoughts?

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY18:10:48

I’ve found it’s easy to create a policy, but super hard to shut it down

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:53

"This policy becomes invalid based on the following terms:"...

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:02

You can lead with personality, excel and structure. You need a bit of everything but not in excess and not in a counterproductive way.

Rob Parkhill, Director SW Engineering, Hexagon AP18:10:09

@james.simon1 this is how I use it/explain it for new teams - follow the rules rigidly to start. Once you have that working, then start looking for ways to improve. A lot of teams want to start with lots of modifications to suit their needs!

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Ganga Narayanan18:10:18

Shu-Ha-Ri, I guess? Start with the rules first before trying something different right away..?

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:08

walking before running, shu-ha-ri... whatever flavor you like.

Mark Schwartz18:10:17

@james.simon1 I know what you mean, but I'm not so sure. If there's a better way, why not just go straight to the better way? I'd say that a flow-based approach, minimizing cycle time, keeping low WIP is just as rigorous as Scrum but arguably more effective

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:14

Oh I want to know so much more about this response

Brad Appleton18:10:52

@nickeggleston "Some people (and systems?) are very attracted to Rules and Order" --- Yes, very much so. Reminds me of "Jack" in Golding's "Lord of the Flies" (not to be confused with Ralph). Maybe that relates to one of the areas in the Cynefin framework?

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:22

"we wrote a management instruction to explain what policy compliance meant for our teams" - this is a ninja move

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Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili18:10:44

@james.simon1 There is a gaping pitfall of not explaining that every event in Scrum is about learning together. If that does not stick, it becomes paint by numbers.

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:23

Oh I agree. I keep trying to drill home that that is what all of this about

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:00

Sure, when you see that Scrum has this set of events to have a 360 learning together culture, you can replace all the parts.

Mark Fuller18:10:55

Frameworks in general should be seen as a crawl state, with walk, run, and fly to follow through experimentation and continuous improvement in the context of the team using them.

Mark Schwartz18:10:57

@mylesogilvie See - isn't bureaucracy wonderful?

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:18

Absolutely - we can make it work for us!

Ruairi O'Brien - Software Engineer at McKesson18:10:45

This story is incredibly entertaining for some reason. Definitely getting the book.

Mark Schwartz18:10:49

@mark.fuller126 You'd have to convince me that it's necessary to crawl and walk before you fly. I'm not sure it's true

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect19:10:42

I have spent months in full on combat with management over this. You don't get mature at doing the right thing, by doing the wrong thing

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Mark Schwartz19:10:20

yes @james.simon1 that's my point of view. It's really a question of change leadership

Mark Fuller19:10:16

Its a thought provoking point. Can a person become an expert at something without any practice or learning along the way? From my perspective, if the team is heading in the right direction and dictating the speed of change themselves, the growth and learning can be very beneficial.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:41

You can learn by doing or watching others' mistakes.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:25

I am leaning towards having to walk before running but it does not have to be so many steps, if you know your nervous system well enough.

Mark Schwartz19:10:27

Not sure it's a gradient of experience. You don't need to learn to groom backlogs before you learn to minimize cycle time - they're different skills. Becoming good at grooming backlogs doesn;t make you get better at minimi9zing cycle times

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect19:10:29

Sure, you need practice, but not by practicing something different. I am being asked to lead iterative design, because we aren't "mature enough" at iteration to add development yet

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:12

I teach Scrum one event at a time and get that to a great level and then move on. That's like running every seventh step or so.

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect19:10:13

and you just don't get good at developing software, by not developing software

Mark Schwartz19:10:40

Remember the opportunity cost / cost of delay of only going halfway until you feel "ready" to go the rest of the way

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:49

CoD seems to be impossible to teach to a lot of people. Does not stop me from trying, though.

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Mark Fuller19:10:28

@ferrix I am definitely in favor of learning by doing instead of by watching, which is why I think you have to have some of the experiential learning to get to great improvements and levels of maturity.

James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect19:10:53

Yes, let the work guide us, empirical

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:40

@mark.fuller126 Let's take an abstract example: stand-up comedy. Not so abstract to me. In an open mic night there are 15 comedians and I have 5 minutes. By watching the others bomb and succeed, I can amplify my learning and get an edge. It simply has to be deliberate observation.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:05

In terms of Scrum, it could be replicating the better experiments based on others' learning.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:38

@mark.fuller126 The learning isn't up to a mastery level unless you do it yourself, but you will start recognizing the moments when you are screwing up just like that other guy and this is how that mistake is made.

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:59

So you steal some of your "oh shits" from others and you can possibly avoid some in the process.

Mark Fuller19:10:41

@ferrix I agree you can learn from others mistakes. We use this premise to have teams that are more mature demo their experience to less mature teams. Even then, the context of the second team might drive them to a different answer through their experience.

Mark Fuller19:10:36

Good convo, I appreciate the thoughts!

Ferrix Hovi - Head of DevOps - Siili19:10:06

Diversity could be an option there. Averaging out the maturity so that everyone has the "old and wise" to notify of imminent failure from the same room πŸ˜„

Mark Schwartz19:10:12

Thanks, @ruarfff. As you can probably tell, I find it entertaining too πŸ™‚

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM19:10:30

Coercive, Bloated and Petrified

Abi Estrada-Bey19:10:57

I was listening to the "Stink eye on steroids" presentation and got interrupted ... and then missed the end of it. Anybody made note of the contact info for Jill Mead?

Dominic Laycock19:10:09

I was just thinking this sounds like a lean bureaucracy movement 😁

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Ganga Narayanan19:10:28

I'm trying to visualize a lean sumo wrestler πŸ™‚

Myles [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:27

@schmark what you describe is similar pattern to the Barclays journey; once the policy of the organisation has been co-opted then resistance starts to drop away. There is a golden nugget here for traditional organisations.

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)19:10:54

Feel free to continue the conversation #ask-the-speaker-more !

Mark Schwartz19:10:21

@mylesogilvie Exactly. Financial services shares a lot with gov, but bureaucracy's universal anyway

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect19:10:21

That was awesome!

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Mark Schwartz19:10:37


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Nick - developer at BNPP19:10:47

Thanks @mark.schwartz .

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)19:10:51

Welcome our next speaker @txjones!

Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:57

Hey everyone! I’m looking forward to discussing in the next session

Ganga Narayanan19:10:02

Thanks you Mark!

Brad Appleton19:10:01

That was indeed awesome! I admit, when I first saw the title, I assumed the 'Monkey' had something to do with ChaosMonkey )and SImianArmy) and that Sumo might be related to the DevOps vendor of that name. (I correctly guessed the razor tho -- was pleasantly surprised to see I was mistaken about the other too).

Brad Appleton19:10:56

Some of what was said about rules & governance, reminded me a bit of Ray Immelman's "Great Boss! Dead Boss!" (which isnt really about dead bosses, but about warring tribes phenomenon in many organizations and governance, and the idea of creating a "supertribe" to unify (and hopefully dissolve) rigid tribal silos.)

Nick - developer at BNPP19:10:22

I need to start using the words "value stream" more in my emails. People seem to like it. And I have completely missed this trend

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What is old is new again. It's good stuff!

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:00

Crazy to think of a rocket scientist at a small company that was growing

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:24

With the amount of capital needed, it would seem like it would be an instant large enterprise

Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:18

yeah that could apply .. they called it something different in this whitepaper

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:10

It's the 2nd time in two days I've heard someone talk about the FAE in a way I'd not thought of it. The common element there is!

Nick - developer at BNPP19:10:27

@txjones - what is the whitepaper name?

Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:19

I can do better than answering that. … here’s the whitepaper

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Martin (TeamForm)19:10:23

don't reward people for setting fires so they can be seen πŸ™‚

Martin (TeamForm)19:10:49

(but wonder if that's an incentive your system created)

Laksh Ranganathan (Tasktop)19:10:59

Thank you so much for sharing. I have been trying explore what I call β€œrewarding firefighters vs silent guardians”, this white paper and your talk is so timely!

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty19:10:38

Think this is how you get to the Technical Debt spiral that @mik talked about this morning

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:02

This slide is so on point for DevOps

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:17

Such a great perspective on Thinking in Systems. That rocket engineers would look at inputs, outputs, bottlenecks, etc.

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty19:10:30

Whats crazy is the engineering organization had decades of experience in lean manufacturing - and at one point was an exemplar at it. And yet. the red tape crept in.

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Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:15

crept is the right word because no one knew when or how … it just happened over time

Ed Marshall - Enterprise Agility - Deloitte19:10:29

Is there a correlation with growth of the organization?

Martin (TeamForm)19:10:07

@edwmarshall3app there seems to be a lack of research into the relationship between organisational size and agility. The is running some primary research in this space, I believe they're on track to publish later this year or early '21

Martin (TeamForm)19:10:27

(happy to be proven wrong, if there's existing research!)

Martin (TeamForm)19:10:50

@dave ... and failures. "Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly"

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Ganga Narayanan19:10:48

Interesting! Lean paints all waste with an equal brush. ToC focuses on where the hunting is good.

Kurt A (Speaker) Blameless, SRE Architect19:10:18

scenius is much nicer than macrosocial phenomena

Ganga Narayanan19:10:03

It was only yesterday that I came across "scenius"! Feels like long ago. πŸ™‚

Kurt A (Speaker) Blameless, SRE Architect19:10:22

I really like that description of bushcraft

Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:03

Brent = Phoenix Project reference

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:13

'What if we could hunt for "Brent" everywhere'? 🎯 πŸ˜†

Ganga Narayanan19:10:32

Yes! We need a "Where's Wally" equivalent for Brent!

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Ganga Narayanan19:10:23

I'm going to use this "find Brent" at work!

Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:42

it’s an nice light way to search for where knowledge is stuck

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Craig Cook - IBM19:10:31

When you gather metrics, share and visualize them, how do you ensure they are not weaponized?

Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:32

It’s about choosing what to measure .. and the combinations of metrics .. hunting metrics show trends and and allow opportunity for people to work together to get ahead of problems

Craig Cook - IBM19:10:27

Did you encounter any fear? Why do you want to gather that metric about my team?

Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:47

no because they aren’t team-centric .. they are up a level

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Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:12

teams need different types of metrics than leaders

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Tiani Jones , speaker, Sociotechnologist at The Ready19:10:57

teams need more granular metrics about flow and bottlenecks etc to use for themselves

Nick - developer at BNPP19:10:01

Thank you @txjones - that was great talk!

Jason Trent19:10:04

Awesome @txjones! On my list to rewatch and apply.

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Ganga Narayanan19:10:15

Very insightful session! Thank you @txjones

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Thank you @txjones

Craig Cook - IBM19:10:17

Thanks, great talk @txjones

Paul Salmon19:10:19

Thanks @txjones Loved all the background papers and references too. Very helpful.

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Fred Ghahramani19:10:22

Great story telling. insightful, thank you for sharing

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Martin (TeamForm)19:10:53

metrics not being weaponised: I don't think you can ensure that. It's many conversations about how metrics support outcomes, but also to gain trust to learn where they're being misused (so many scars... "so, why aren't we deploying this new feature?" "because I have a kpi, if I fail I lose. if it works there's no benefit" #metricsFail)


"If we release it, the stock price goes up, even if it breaks"


just a different metric

Martin (TeamForm)19:10:02

agreed! that said, I like the release and make more $ approach better than release-and-get-hit πŸ™‚

Brad Appleton19:10:12

@ganga.n "Lean paints all waste with an equal brush" -- does it? I thought there was (used to be) a distinction between some forms of "necessary waste" (i.e., non-value-adding activities that help either preserve/maintain value, or prevent waste/failure demand, or improve flow). I think refactoring (and lowering tech debt) falls in there somewhere. (Or am I mis-recollecting?)

Ganga Narayanan19:10:30

True, it does make distinction between types of waste.. I was referring to a comment where I found that ToC helps better hone in on the real problems to solve rather than trying to eliminate all waste.. That was one of my takeways. Did I get that right?

Brad Appleton19:10:15

Ahh - yes. You are referring to "POOGI"? or the "Evaporating Cloud"? (Clarke Ching has a lot of great stuff here!!)

Ganga Narayanan19:10:49

What is POOGI? or Evaporating Cloud? πŸ™‚ So much to keep track of! πŸ™‚ I need to check them out! I was following Tiani Jones' observable universe. πŸ™‚

Brad Appleton19:10:56

POOGI == "Process Of Ongoing Improvement" = consists of the 5 focusing steps:

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Brad Appleton19:10:23

Evaporating Cloud is a collaborative conflict resolution technique in TOC that tries to elicit dialogue over debate: (it can work quite well with a good facilitator and the participants have a working agreement for the ground rules of particpation)

Brad Appleton19:10:06

Of those two: POOGI (the 5 focusing steps) is probably the one that tries to guide you to hunt for the "next right thing" to address in terms of waste elimination (e.g., you find the next biggest constraint/bottleneck and follow the 5 focusing steps)

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Ganga Narayanan19:10:30

Thank you so much! Love it. I recall the steps in ToC esp from its reference in the Phoenix Project, but the acronym didn't ring a bell. πŸ™‚ Hadn't heard about the Evaporating Cloud. Much appreciated!

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)20:10:45

Welcome our next speakers @lucasc5 and @lewir7!

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)20:10:15

This session is pre-recorded, right?

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)20:10:36

In Phoenix Project, John lears that all of the efforts he was making in IT Security around controls were wasteful and redundant, since Finanace alrady had their own controls in place. Where and how is it useful to challenge statements that "we can't do X because... audit"?

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Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance20:10:03

Any time audit is the sole reason you're doing something (or not doing something), it makes sense to challenge it. Understanding why audit is not wanting you to do something (or why they want you to do something) can result in more clear and actionable feedback from the auditors. It can also challenge the auditor to really make sure the feedback they're providing is adding value.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)20:10:02

When challenging conotrols/SoD/etc, since Audit typically is checking against controls created by some process, who usually need to get involved to determing when these can be safely modified?

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance21:10:07

Any time you're changing key controls, it's a good idea to connect with your auditors to explain to them how the control is changing and how the risk is still mitigated. They can provide an independent lens as well.

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)20:10:45

"move fast and break stuff" πŸ˜‰

Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)20:10:56

How do you differentiate between risks and threats and measure (or rank) each?

Rusty Lewis, Specialist - IT Auditor21:10:45

We would look at threats as a component of a risk. Each organization ranks risk and threats differently, though.

John Yopp21:10:29

How do you validate the automated controls over time?

Clarissa Lucas, IT Audit Director, Nationwide Insurance21:10:53

Love this question! We're figuring this one out as we go. Ideally we would get a feed of data showing the output of the automated controls and monitor this for key risk indicators (how effective is the control over time?)

John Yopp21:10:42

So base it on outcomes tied with things that passed the control under a given set of conditions?

John Yopp21:10:00

And are there criteria for when automated controls can provide SoD?


Do you have knowledge of any material that more deeply discuss the validity of different approaches to separation of duties?


like automated controls only vs any-peer-review ("four eyes"), vs review/approve by different roles ...

John Yopp21:10:29

I've always seen it done by "four eyes", with the concept of how many folks would have to conspire to subvert a system (all talked about in your link). I'm intrigued by automation of SoD, but haven't seen a case study that backs that up.

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Nick Eggleston, IT Architect (open to offers)21:10:31

Are you familiar with the (somewhat dated) concept of "People-Centric Security"?

Jason MacZura21:10:59

Great presentation @lucasc5 and @lewir7. Are your audits supporting SOX requirements specifically? SOX requirements for controls and evidence appear less amenable.

Dave Shepherd21:10:08

Excellent presentation! Im curious how long did it take your Risk Mgmt and Internal Audit teams to get comfortable with DevOps and the automation it brings?

Rusty Lewis, Specialist - IT Auditor21:10:42

We started adopting lean and agile practices beginning with our Agile transformation in 2006. DevOps however became our IT organizations primary focus beginning in 2012, and then in 2018 we created a DevOps Platform Team to assist application teams in making progress on our overall organizations DevOps journey. From an audit perspective, we are still in the process of working with our risk partners in an effort to gain greater comfort in the automation it brings.


The talk mentions the risk appetite of the organization. How far is that a decision/choice of the org when it comes down to regulations like SOX? Example: preventive controls vs reactive controls (detect something wrong occured, and take action on it to remedy it and avoid further ocurrences)

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:37

Hi everyone! I'm going to be honest - it's a little odd listening to myself doing my track talk πŸ™‚

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Zell Gagnon21:10:48

Hey it’s @esh Hi! πŸ‘‹

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Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:19

Hi! So good to see you!

Zell Gagnon21:10:51

yes, you too as well! I was delighted to see you on the schedule. I always learn so much from you!

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Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:12

Oh - you are so sweet!

Zell Gagnon21:10:42

(also this is my career now -> influencing without authority πŸ˜„ )

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Ricardo Viana21:10:56

I'm looking forward to this presentation. Influence is indeed > than authority. Authority, however, is louder and it can scratch your corneas πŸ˜‰

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:52

LOL - yes - I'm not in any way saying that authority doesn't matter. And mis-used authority can indeed scratch corneas and cause all sorts of other kinds of damage.

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Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)21:10:52

Welcome @esh !

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:15

β€œI told them what to do… but they’re not doing it” < I’ve heard that before!

Patrick S. Kelso21:10:40

Why aren't they happy at work, I told them to be happy...

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:53

β€œfeed that which you want to see grow”

Ricardo Viana21:10:08

Loving that list

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:26

I’ve heard that conversations are important. πŸ˜„

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:40

@dominica and I each triggered in our own way. πŸ˜„

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop21:10:47

Not to override Step 1 - very much want to learn how to set up conditions for growth.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:28

Positive feedback only reminds me of animal training. Rewards only.

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:57

Not sure I would frame it quite that way when talking about people -- wouldn't want to offend anyone -- but yes, it's the same general principle.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:17

You’re a nicer person than I am.

Ricardo Viana21:10:26

"Brilliance" most times is self-professed - and not real

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:32

Yes - true - and common in organizations where the culture encourages people to play the my-brain-is-bigger-than-your-brain game.

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Zell Gagnon21:10:27

My friend Brian calls this β€œtiger training”, in refrence to an old NYT essay:

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:16

Really like getting the feedback from everyone else.

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:40

Huge shoutout to @dominica here!

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Zell Gagnon21:10:42

How would you kick-start a behavior that isn’t there? Like, if nobody does good commit messages?

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Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:24

You can "shape" the behavior you want by finding the very very best example (that still doesn't meet your bar for 'good') and feed that.

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)21:10:35

If you're a leader with a dev background, pick up some stories and write some good commit messages as an example :)

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Ricardo Viana21:10:43

Thanks, @esh- I'm enjoying these multi-threaded presentations πŸ™‚

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:44

I confess I actually am enjoying this virtual format better than traditional in person for exactly that reason!

Ricardo Viana21:10:27


Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:51

BTW in addition to her fabulous book, @dominica has a fabulous presentation / article here: Also she did a great presentation on this topic available here:

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)21:10:27

She's also a fabulous VSM workshop facilitator ... speaking as a happy customer πŸ™‚

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:23

between an hour and a week? yeah, a bit of variation…

Patrick S. Kelso21:10:49

How did you get it so small. Ours would be between a week and a quarter 😞

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:48

LOL - this was in an organization that was theoretically was doing something approximating continuous delivery - our philosophy was generally that every committed change we made should be shippable.

Patrick S. Kelso21:10:27

I remember those days. Now I'm still working on convincing my peers that we - a university IT department - are a software company and should act like one occasionally.

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Patrick S. Kelso21:10:53

I was starting lean coffee sessions before covid, but have struggled to get attendance to lean zoom sessions when everyone is well over zoom now.

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:55

Understandable but sad-making. It is exhausting to be staring at screens all day without face-to-face interactions.

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:51

Yeah - it was sooooo painful. The worst we had on that project was a 3 week period where we couldn't ship anything because we couldn't get a green build.

Lou Sacco21:10:51

What are flakes?

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop21:10:55

THIS --> "The primary driver of painful change was contention & flakes"

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:08

Oh I'm so sorry! A flake is a test that fails intermittently

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:40

brilliant illustration of the problem, and also of working through a problem.

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:44

Flaky tests are usually false failures. The problem is that you can't ignore the failure because it might actually represent real and valuable info. You don't know.

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Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:05

I mentioned the open space law of mobility. It’s also called the law of two feet, but I prefer mobility since not everyone has the use of their feet.

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:17

If you haven’t encountered open space before, there’s a good short primer here:

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:23

Harrison Owen, the person credited with starting Open Spaces as a conference format, wrote a wonderful book: Open Space Technology

Matt K. Parker he/him (Speaker/Author)21:10:34

Love that story. Leaving a meeting because you don't belong there == radical empowerment!

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Ricardo Viana21:10:38

I like the way you made that statement. "Bosses" think that ""authority"" gives them """value""" (additional quotes intentional...)

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Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:05

And big shoutout to @jtf & @ds for their book on Agile Conversations!

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Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:56

I will forever be grateful to Kim Scott for her framing of nice v kind - it resonates so much with folks.

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Ricardo Viana21:10:15

We have talked about Radical Candor at work quite a lot. That's a great book. Radical Candor is tough, but if you're comfortable you're not changing

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:46

I don't talk about it here - but it so bothers me when folks think that being kind is being weak.

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Dominica DeGrandis, Author - Making Work Visible, Tasktop21:10:40

I like "thoughtful". Also "responsibility" as in the ability to respond while being present.

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Randy Shoup (Chief Architect eBay; he/him)21:10:56

At StitchFix, we used to say our values were "Bright, Kind, and Goal-Oriented", and talked a lot about Nice <> Kind.

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Patrick S. Kelso21:10:58

Screenshotting that list!

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Matt K. Parker he/him (Speaker/Author)21:10:49

@esh As a leader, if you have hire/fire/compensation power over people, how can you challenge them directly in a way that doesn't shut conversation down?

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:07


Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:00

Seriously - establishing that you genuinely care and establishing trust is a precondition. Otherwise there's too big a risk of coming across as a jerk.

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Ricardo Viana21:10:53

Organizational power can backfire so easily, especially when you're trying to foster trust

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations21:10:53

an addition to the list that I like is β€œthe story I’m telling myself is…” < from Berne Brown

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Zell Gagnon21:10:08

A lot of this is in line with the Difficult Conversations technique as well - it’s been really helpful for me to navigate these sorts of conversatinos

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Ricardo Viana21:10:34

"Fear is an incompetent teacher" - Jean-Luc Picard (oh, well....)

Joe Moretti - Synapse Wireless21:10:31

I really like the book β€œCrucial Conversations”. This model has worked very well for my org

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Zell Gagnon21:10:08

Haha, this is what I was attempting to reference above

Patrick S. Kelso21:10:06

One thing I find really hard, is in the moment remembering all the things from Crucial Conversations or Radical Candor and not just letting my mouth run away with itself.

Joe Moretti - Synapse Wireless21:10:16

I tend to get a book club going on it with new leaders or leaders who haven’t read it previously at least once a year, or more often as needed. It helps me keep myself in check

Patrick S. Kelso21:10:03

That's a great idea. I've spent a lot of this year re-reading some of my most inspiring books and realising I'd forgotten so much.

Jo Osborne (Software Engineer - G-Research)14:10:50

@nl_does I agree - implementing these techniques is so much harder than understanding them! The breakout session "Making Change Painfully with Conversational Dojos" had a view on how to actually practice conversational technique which I found really interesting πŸ™‚

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Ricardo Viana21:10:10

Thanks for the great lecture, @esh ! πŸ™‚

Patrick S. Kelso21:10:20

πŸ‘ πŸ‘

Nick - developer at BNPP21:10:48

Thank you @esh for the very insightful talk

Zell Gagnon21:10:49

πŸ‘ πŸ‘

Elisabeth Hendrickson21:10:08

Thank you all so much! This was fun!!

Zell Gagnon21:10:17

I need like, another 20 minutes of this content?

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Aaron Ashby21:10:19

Frank Herbert would say "Fear is the Mind Killer", that's a Dune reference. Nice! I agree with @rshoup

Lou Sacco21:10:09


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Jon Sturdevant - Tech Advisor - BlueCross BlueShield of SC21:10:27

Ha - I think that is running away from your fear

Aaron Ashby21:10:00

No that's just re-positioning for a better attack angle. Common misperception when dealing with sand worms

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Istvan Bathazi21:10:20

behind the camera is the goal where he wants to improve :)