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John Willis17:10:42


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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations17:10:20

Howโ€™s it going today @jwillis?

John Willis18:10:50

Hey buddy... been a bot crazy. I haven't had a real job i n 35 years... It's all good just not use to bigCo stuff .. still adjusting.

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Nick Eggleston18:10:31

Glad to see you in the chat @jwillis ๐Ÿ˜Š

John Willis18:10:40

yeah.. I wish we all could be real not virtual...

Nick Eggleston18:10:06

That would have been great, though I couldnโ€™t have shelled out the full fee from personal funds, so virtual works out this time...

Nick Eggleston18:10:53

Have u watched the other sessions today?

John Willis18:10:10

for anyone who cares... here's a link to the all about be stuff...

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:24

All things lead back to Patrick < ๐Ÿ˜„

John Willis18:10:25

Onbe of the advanced topics we are working on with Jabe is what is called Recommoning from Design Transition (his PHD).

Nick Eggleston18:10:08

Iโ€™m glad youโ€™re looking ahead to whatโ€™s post DevOps (or what DevOps will include next)

John Willis18:10:01

I'll stop spamming but this important stuff if you find my presentation interesting.

Nick Eggleston18:10:23

Keep sending...

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:34

> If we're talking about GitOps and CI/CD five years from now, we haven't gotten anywhere.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:45

Conversations are important. ๐Ÿ™‚

Nick Eggleston18:10:58

Organizational Conversations - any of these recorded we can watch?

Nick Eggleston18:10:19

And what is your template for the conversations?

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:24

John going to the place closest to the work

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:43

โ€œthe people at the edgeโ€ < this has been a theme lately, that learning needs to be happening at the edge, at the periphery

Nick Eggleston18:10:08

The edge is where the friction happens

Nick Eggleston18:10:38

And where a lot of under appreciated intelligence and data lies...

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:58

That's where there actual information is!

Nick Eggleston18:10:24

Thereโ€™s a lot of โ€œtheatreโ€ in various IT areas, it seems...

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:45

โ€œlooking at things that go rightโ€ < harder to do, unintuitiveโ€ฆ lots of untapped learning!

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Nick Eggleston18:10:00

Is โ€œbeyond the goalโ€ on YouTube?

John Willis18:10:19

I love that image... definitely going to steal it... w/attribution

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John Willis18:10:03

Beyond the Goal is an Audio only book. It's an amazing work... ask @genek101

John Willis18:10:22

yep.. 18 months...

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:25

the iceberg of ignorance is why I ask people โ€œare you happy?โ€ < I expect their unhappiness to be a leading indicator of project problems

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:24

And the variants of that: 1. Does your team feel cohesive; 2. Is your onboarding process long or short; 3. Do you feel like your team members have your back; do you have theirs

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John Willis18:10:31

I start all my interviews with what are the things your company is not doing and should be... It opens the flood gates

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Nick Eggleston18:10:24

More of this... ๐Ÿ˜Š

John Willis18:10:10

I got that from Kevin Behr but he told me that it really comes from Goldratt.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:15

One of my other questions is โ€œis there anything that youโ€™d expect to be happening that isnโ€™t happening?โ€ < very similar in intent

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James Simon, FCA, Solution Architect18:10:52

We have no idea how to do architecture in this new way

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:49

I say "my job is to find out from you all the things you've been telling management for years, write it down, and then present it to them, at which point they'll tell me that my ideas are amazing, like I've been working at the company for years" ๐Ÿ˜†

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John Willis18:10:01

modernization and classic EA is terribly out of sync in. most enterprise in 2020

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John Willis18:10:36

Dave.. I just did thsat yesterday for.a large bank...

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:10

Nobody is a prophet in their own land

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:27

I keep hearing Network Flight Recorder for NFR, I'm old

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Me, too!!!

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John Willis18:10:34

One of my quotes is that you can multiply your suckness score by the number of review boards you have..

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Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:56

The Rules of Innovation!

John Willis18:10:56

Jeffery.. great quote...

Nick Eggleston18:10:33

Firehouse of great information...

John Willis18:10:36

this is the basics of recommoning...

John Willis18:10:46

Are we having fun yet?

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Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty18:10:28

@jwillis your earlier slide about the three eras map to three management models. Model 1: Generate Capital. Starts with the age of sail and Dutch East indies company. Model 2: Generate Scale. Henry Ford/Taylorism. Model 3: Generate innovations - Toyota Management System and the Agile/DevOps model (@steve773โ€™s See - Swarm - Solve - Share)

John Willis18:10:41

If you thought I wasn't get demming in this.. you were wrong..

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:50

Demming: drink!

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Nick Eggleston18:10:40

Hidden value is at the edges?

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John Willis18:10:07

Paula.. I line this from HJal LIberty (Chef Economist at Google)

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Ganga Narayanan18:10:10

"We quote the hell out of Deming, maybe we should start listening to him. " I'm going to quote the hell out of this quote!

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Randy Shoup18:10:22

You're bringing me back to my Operations Research classes in college -- optimal places are at the edges! @jwillis

John Willis18:10:57

YES YES YES Randy... SPC is terribly underused in IT...

Nick Eggleston18:10:19

Stop just quoting - need to operationalize

Paula Thrasher - PagerDuty18:10:28

Nobody comes to work planing to blow it up. And yet, mistakes happen.

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John Willis18:10:30

Understanding the difference between common cause vs special cause...

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY18:10:32

I started my career in Spc on the plant floor

John Willis18:10:46

google... this is what happens when you have to 60 minutes in 30 minutes..

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:14

This is why I have Pocket, keep 'em coming!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:38

Scope as the constraint to allow new freedom?

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)18:10:50

So ... much ... reading ๐Ÿ™‚

Nick Eggleston18:10:03

@jwillis come join the @bryan.finster after hours and sprinkle in another 30

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:41

Yep, we'll definitely be hosting another after party to visit with friends

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:49

After the sponsored happy hours we'll post a Zoom and pretend we met at the bar.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional01:10:51

Did the happy hour happen @bryan.finster ?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)02:10:51

Still singing Karaoke with Muse. Come join.

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional02:10:49

too late for me, gotta cook dinner for family

John Willis18:10:12

Jeffery.. basically that's the core of the recomming theory

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:45

ahem openshift ahem

Nick Eggleston18:10:18

Platforms are the new kingmakers?

Nick Eggleston18:10:34

...but what is a platform?

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:20

I can see Iโ€™ll be doing some reading about recommoning

John Willis18:10:55

in the meta it's an interface abstraction that bounds differentiation and scale. The down to earth version might be atomic compute and clusters. a Cloud Native answer is containers and K8.

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:07

Loved these concepts in Project to Product about becoming good at delivering software is the only way to survive

Courtney Kissler18:10:14

thanks @jwillis - always learn something from you!!

Romen Rodriguez-Gil18:10:20

Great talk @jwillis! It is kind of surprising to see all the resistance there is in many companies still in 2020 to adopt many of the cultural aspects you mentioned. Thank you saying all this out loud! BTW, will this recording be publicly available later? I would love to re-watch it and make a note of all those great quotes you included in there ๐Ÿ™‚

John Willis18:10:02

Jeffery... If you watch's presentation he talks about how he used recommining for smart cities and he has some really cool things with his cards. I really would like to map this stuff to IT personas .. ITsec, EA ... let me know if yount to9 explore more..

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations18:10:37

Iโ€™m definitely interested in exploring more @jwillis!

Pete Nuwayser - IBM18:10:11

Thanks @jwillis ๐Ÿ‘

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Istvan Bathazi18:10:14


Nick Eggleston18:10:18

@jwillis, Where and how should we hit you up for the nextgen conversations?

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems18:10:32

Is there any suggested reading or videos on how to build good platforms? I feel like right now we are just building a platform that is okay.

John Willis18:10:55

Back at you Courtney..

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:58

I never miss a @jwillis talk, and each time I'm reminded of why

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John Willis18:10:25

thanks mr dave...

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)18:10:42

Welcome @peterlear and @kimberley.wilson2!

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Peter Lear18:10:11

Looking forwards to some great questions and sharing

Rich B - DevOps is my career change18:10:31

Just got started with OKRs - off to a rough start

Peter Lear18:10:54

We will share a similar journey Rich!

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Kimberley Wilson18:10:45

Will be interesting to hear the difficulties others are facing and how you're overcoming them.

Courtney Kissler18:10:03

For us, itโ€™s about where to start and how do we scale and many people want to start with getting a tool as step 1. Iโ€™ve been recommending that we really focus on getting the structure/processes/mindset in place first before we focus on a โ€œtoolโ€.

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Kimberley Wilson18:10:29

It sounds like we had a similar issue where we focused on getting the reporting layer of OKRs correct first, assuming the mindset will follow. From our experience, the mindset of realising value above just 'project delivery' is the most important thing.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:34

What about growing them together?

Rich B - DevOps is my career change18:10:56

i was told "write some OKRs" - i had to google OKR. never received any context or real direction

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]18:10:18

Cargo cult is the risk. New labels same behaviour

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Peter Lear18:10:27

We realised that project delivery of โ€œthingsโ€ was often value destroying, as the focus was on tasks, rather than a focus on what our customers wanted

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:28

There was training, but it was so general and not at al related to our context.

Rich B - DevOps is my career change18:10:34

i have not overcome anuyting yet

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant18:10:44

the first step for us was to tell that OKRs and business metrics are not the same. our leadership kept on making that same mistake and kept an asking for daily rpeorts on OKR progress like its another way to monitor daily operations

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Rich B - DevOps is my career change18:10:21

this was about 3 weeks ago and most of the feedback I am getting is "you are doing it wrong"

Kimberley Wilson18:10:03

I agree, you'll see later in the presentation that we're trying to give more support this time round, simplifying language and accepting 'good enough'. From the outset, accepting good enough OKRs seems to be a backwards step, but it really does help build psychological safety and encourages teams to explore why OKRs are useful. If they are only writing OKRs for reporting purposes they will never get the true value from them.

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Kimberley Wilson18:10:48

Good to hear that others are still learning on this journey with us!

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant18:10:19

adopting OKRs is not simple but once you are able to do it, its extremely rewarding. this is how we did it: โ€ข leadership has to buy in and really understand how OKRs are different. a few other concepts might come in handy too like cross functional teams. at the end of the day, its the business objective that matters and not function specific objectives. marketings objective in isolation dont make sense. โ€ข about the last sentence in my previous point, you can still do it. but do it later. first break the boundaries to understand the meaning of objectives. do it a few times and then realize in what ways your company and functions within them must set their ojbectives. for us, priority is for company OKRs and their children. after that, teams can have their unaligned OKRs (i.e. OKRs not alogned to top company OKRs but aligned to lines of businesses). and lastly excellence OKRs - think systemic improvements or DevOps goals. โ€ข leaders will really have to commit to OKRs. and then learn it. and then write OKRs themselves and have others review. in retrospect, I wish we created a dojo for OKRs. getting the verbiage of OKRs right is extremely important to communicate goals well. how we did this was that the leadership was working with every manager and their teams in review ORKs and giving them feedback on specificity, verbiage, ambitiousness, and calling out possibility to get explicit alignment. and we did a lot of other things. happy to talk more about this. I was deeply involved in driving OKRs at my company.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant18:10:52

we also used OKRs for perosnal growth. that was after everyone (almost) understood what OKRs are and preferred it as the way to set any kind of goals

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant18:10:37

i'd also add governance for OKRs to that list to make the operational aspects of OKRs successful

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional18:10:32

Is this implying the OKR information is flowing up instead of down?

Peter Lear18:10:46

It needs to flow both ways - one of the behaviours we are trying to correct is the โ€œfire and forgetโ€ instructions, and making feedback a key ingredient

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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere18:10:11

@peterlear @kimberley.wilson2 This has been a challenge for us this past year. We did a "set and forget". This time around, we're investing more in how to track along the way. But we also have the problem of a lack of feedback loop around the org on the OKRs themselves. What did you find successful in injecting feedback loops into OKR writing and tracking along the way?

Kimberley Wilson19:10:40

For us, the shift to support and coaching is starting to help Teams themselves understand the value in checking their OKRs, course correcting and improving them. The interesting thing for us going forward is to see whether this causes a conflict for some of our governance processes, where course correction might not be seen as a positive thing.

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional19:10:24

I'm hosting the Lean Coffee on Leadership Alignment (Room 2) today and tomorrow. Just sayin'...

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)18:10:02

Should OKRs be used for individuals at all?

Peter Lear18:10:35

Is โ€œdependsโ€ an ok answer - by that I mean it will depending on the size of the goal, if you believe that an organisation doesnโ€™t need lots of OKRs in order to focus on valuable work, but we have been using the OKR format for individual goals to get into a good habit (but recognising they are not full OKRs)

Courtney Kissler18:10:30

one of my favorite sites to point people to when they are curious about OKRs -

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)18:10:16

awesome website, should have read it before the presentation to have a better context. Was able to catch up now and match the information in the site to my notes of the talk, so thanks ๐Ÿ˜‰

Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere18:10:05

100% agree @chawklady. I reference this site often in my own team OKRs and when trying to coach others.

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Santiago Cardona18:10:50

How determine the correct OKRs to work during the planning of the next year?

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Kimberley Wilson18:10:44

The first step is to work out what value you want to realise, linked to your Strategic Goals. YUsually once you set a clear goal, teams themselves will be able to suggest which OKRs are most recommended to achieve these goals, creating a very visible golden thread from OKR to Strategy. Pivoting to value goals means you can continuously check whether you're on track to realise your value/Strategic Goals and course correct if necessary.

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Camilo Piedrahita - Bancolombia - IT Manager18:10:17

how to define OKR for "enablers" teams? its so complicated for us defining these OKR, because they don't have direct impact to business

Peter Lear18:10:59

Hi Camilo - my favourite question! Enablers are OK, as long as they can see directly how they contribute to Value for whatever they are enabling, but we found that work that classed itself as enabling, had lost sight of what they were enabling - really important to check them early!

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant19:10:16

Its a lot of project vs product thought process

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Matt Ring (he/him) - Sr. Product/Engineering Coach, John Deere19:10:38

@capiedra This thread gave me some good insights here... For our enabler or platform teams, their mission was to get out of product teams' (a.k.a stream-aligned teams) way. So they started measuring things that directly improve the 4 Software Delivery & Operational (SDO) metrics on those teams. Some additional examples: โ€ข Deployment lead time for teams (if they played a part in teams getting things deployed) โ€ข CX metrics like Developer NPS (i.e. how likely would you use our internal platform vs. something else) or Customer Effort Score (CES) (i.e. how easy or difficult is it to use our internal platform, APIs, etc. to do your job)

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant18:10:35

"Tailor support for coaching" โค๏ธ

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Kimberley Wilson19:10:45

Completely agree. We've learnt that often supporting/coaching has a much greater and long lasting impact on teams than our previous approach of 'correcting them'.

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant19:10:38

In our technology function, we setup a group of eng leaders as volunteers to go out of their verticals to act as OKR reviewers, working with teams, giving them feedback

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant19:10:01

which also ends up doubling up as an organic way to relay information between verticals

Courtney Kissler19:10:12

sounds like the improvement kata!!

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Rasika V19:10:10

can you provide some examples of OKR's that a tech org can use?

Peter Lear19:10:04

Hi Rasika we have learnt that the templating is dangerous, but dialogue amongst colleagues and teams is really healthy to create and review OKRs before you commit to them

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:46

"Away from measuring milestones to measuring value" ๐Ÿ’ฏ

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:09

"and get learning from the measures. Early"

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:28

Thanks for sharing @peterlear and @kimberley.wilson2 Hard to get the cultural aspects in place.

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems19:10:05

I was hoping for Bryan Cranston but I guess I'll stay.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:16

So great to have someone representing their small local retailer.

Andy Nelson19:10:51

just a quaint SMB making its way in the world...

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:14

They wanted to go from quarterly to bi-weekly.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:23

We said, "we'll try for daily"

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:47

Had to buy Jez and Dave's bok. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:32

It couldnโ€™t be imposed from the outside. The architect team I was on spent a lot of time advocating for teams to improve their CD capabilities, but it never took off. Finally I asked to get back on a product team as tech lead instead of shouting from our ivory tower. The team was dead average, not hand-picked. It only took 3-4 of us on the team trying to solve the problem to bring everyone else along.ย I posted the rules for CI in the team area and every day asked โ€œwhatโ€™s the current impediment?โ€. Then we solved the problem together.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:23

Improvement kata again

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:55

Andy Patton would shout louder

Scott Prugh (DOES Prog Committee)19:10:38

The embedding or liaison model is a key way to achieve these types of changes. We used this in our transformation. Team of Teams did a great job of illustrating the value of this to build empathy, create shared mission and push decision making to the lowest levels. @david627 @jessica.reif

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:10:39

I watch a lot of military history. ๐Ÿ™‚

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:10:12

I also know from my fails that my team is smarter than I am. We, as a network of developers across the enterprise, are smarter the bigger the network is. Anyone who wants to help drive is on my team and an equal partner. It's terrible for career growth because they win, not me. It moves the mission forward though. I'm here for the mission.

Jack Vinson - flow19:10:16

@bryan.finster So CI = Current Impediment ๐Ÿ˜†

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Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant19:10:50

"Good practices should be the easy path"

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Andy Nelson19:10:08

@jillmead2018 called those "cow paths"

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant19:10:56

there is so much goodness in that slide @bryan.finster!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:09

better value sooner safer

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY19:10:01

American Airlines uses cookie cutter !

Vaidik Kapoor (Speaker) - Technology Consultant19:10:41

is that enough? what about infrastructure standardization?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:29

Not the same thing @chris.gallivan :facepunch:

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:37

I highly recommend Engineering the Digital Transformation by Gary Gruver. Itโ€™s a practical guide to what, why, and how for anyone looking for where to start.

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Dominic Laycock19:10:46

Would love to see that glossary of testing terms, just been going through some of that pain

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:13

It took us some time, but we have consensus. it's a worthwhile effort.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:46

Talk to someone about "integration testing" sometime. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:18

Getting teams to migrate is so much easier when the alternative is that their VP will need to find a way to pay for their existing tools if they choose not to. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems19:10:53

I've heard several talks today mention building a delivery platform. What types of things were you adding on that you couldn't get out of the box? For reference, I use a lot of Jenkins right now.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:39

Automated compliance, automated security, being able to deploy to all of our environments. Artifact repo, many more

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Dana Finster - Walmart InfoSec (Speaker)19:10:09

Jenkins is a fine tool. Optimizing delivery platform is about finding how you can build out a centralized experience so every team doesn't have to invent their own way of using the tools.

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)19:10:06

related to your commend "Getting teams to migrate is so much easier when the alternative is that their VP will need to find a way to pay for their existing tools if they choose not to." @bryan.finster: I assume the funding for the central delivery platform came centrally, so that the dev teams didnt need to "pay" for it internally (like an internal cost recovery mode)?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:22

Yes. A central platform area was created to do this for the enterprise.

Jack Vinson - flow19:10:26

@bryan.finster How do you create the environment where those "point" tools don't re-emerge? I assume they evolved because of some need that was perceived.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:14

The existed because there was no central platform. Budget and the CIO wanting global metrics discourage that.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:11

so others can learn from our problems. : :thumbsup:

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:57

With our current tooling, I can go from nothing to a new service heartbeat in production in 10 minutes. Weโ€™re making that better. Itโ€™s really important that CD Platform understands the goals and demonstrates the culture; intense customer focus and eating your own dog food. We deploy Concord with Concord. We publish post mortems and advertise when we do so others can learn from our problems.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:10:23

it also bakes in good practices.

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:40

I like the horizontal connection across teams. great leverage of total combined knowledge.

Camilo Piedrahita - Bancolombia - IT Manager19:10:12

Bryan are you including E2E test, security test or acceptance test in the pipeline? 10 minutes ๐Ÿ˜ฎ this is our time in test :S

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:34

10 minutes for CI. <60 minutes for CD

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:40

internal devops days < :thumbsup:

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY19:10:44

Love communities !

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:54

I like this community approach. Sometimes hard to start but always worth it.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:05

I really want to do a talk on metrics, gamification, and the โ€œCoaching as a Serviceโ€ application my team built to tie Hygieia data and improvement suggestions together. This continues to pay dividends with no effort from us. @genek101;)

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:36

Early talk submission @genek101 ๐Ÿ˜

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:27

the investment in community is so important if you want the change to last

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)19:10:04

The hold grail of a self sustaining community

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)19:10:41

how do you enable these communities centrally @bryan.finster? any special setup or support provided or you just kick them off and let them grow and manage themselves organically?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:40

We shower anyone wanting to start one with any support we can, including advertising.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:03

We also join them and help out.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:25

Communities are HARD. We know that. So we pitch in.

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)19:10:25

I can confirm that. In a company as big as ours, we have communities showing up everywhere, but a lot of repetition and struggle to break the silos and bring similar minds together

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:10:26

Yep. When I see duplication, I introduce people to each other.

Phil Jochimsen (UW-Madison)19:10:08

At Walmart - Communities of Practice, Internal DevOps Days & T-Shirts. Brilliant ideas!

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:20

reminds me of the point in Team of Teams of the Leader as Gardener. Creating the communities is a great example of gardening!

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations20:10:55

You can garden in your organization like they are annual crops, one batch after another. Or you can be looking to make changes to the landscape (swales) that will help guide resources (water, information) in such a way as to make a long term sustainable system (community). A โ€œlearnacultureโ€ approach.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)21:10:24

"learnaculture" - now that is going to stick.

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:24

I was booked to facilit... garden the wine lottery on Friday. I hesitated to say yes because I am going to be so tired...

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:25

@bryan.finster what happens when a team gets to 5?

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:09

Enough dimensions and more badges... that's how Untappd does it.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:23

Ohhh. We're still evolving the game.

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)19:10:34

Then we turn the dial to 6.....

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Andy Nelson19:10:42

does it start over but faster like arcade pacman

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY19:10:05

Was there a spinal tap reference here?

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:13

"As a 5-star team we need star six to increase bragging."

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:48

We arenโ€™t a โ€œcenter of excellenceโ€. Thatโ€™s where good ideas go to die. We help teams solve problems and broadcast those solutions to the org so everyone can learn. We practice what we preach. We are developers. Weโ€™ve never stopped developing. We also work to build connections between teams in different orgs to push improvement to the edge.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:03

I thought you know best and tell people what to do? The DevOps Dictator ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:26

push improvement to the edge < and collect learning from the edge!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)20:10:37

Oh, i DO know best. I just help them find my solution. ๐Ÿ˜‰

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Jack Vinson - flow19:10:20

Have you seen any teams that discover they improve past the business need? I had a scenario where the team went from "the bottleneck" to being able to respond faster than the business could absorb the changes. The bottleneck shifted.

Ben Williams - Arvest Bank - Sr Data Pipeline Dev19:10:21

We got called a Center of Excellence... I hate it.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:42

I never let people corrupt our brand. ๐Ÿ™‚

Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)19:10:04

I never know if COE is Center or Expertise or Excellence. I guess it does not matter much? ๐Ÿ˜„

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:26

Or a Centre of Enablement

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:47

Very different! Former knows best. Latter here to help.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:14

Versatilist :man-facepalming:

Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)19:10:51

"I'm not responsible for your delivery, but I can enable you to help yourself. "

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Eduardo Rodrigues Semensati (Procter and Gamble)19:10:02

@jonathansmart1: excellent point, I never gave it much thought on the meaning of COE, just accepted it for whatever the person on the other said meant with it

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Stephen Magill [Sonatype]19:10:29

Love this philosophy, @bryan.finster!

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:02

Leadership support is critical. We've not always had it. We kept driving, but it was mostly just to keep from losing ground.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:16

Never. Give. An. Inch.

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Nick Eggleston19:10:43

Love the tenacity

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:50

http://Walmart.CA had some senior devs who were passionate about CD who worked closely with Platform and the Dojo to help them build out that capability on the teams.ย It takes persistence and determination with support from management and allies in the teams to do this.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:05

A year later, they were rocking! The grudging accolades they received from social media were awesome.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:27

The flood of "I hate to say this about Walmart, but..." was awesome.

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Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:28

This sounds so familiar that my team must be doing something right... or then we are both failing @bryan.finster.

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Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans19:10:36

@bryan.finster Love your additional comments here in the chat. This is one way that I think virtual events can be better than in-person.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:01

copyright @jtf for giving me the idea during the after party.

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Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:00

I stole it from someone from DOES London! unfortuatntely I canโ€™t remember her name ๐Ÿ˜ž

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans19:10:27

I love being able to interact with speakers and other audience members in real time.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:24

COVID really shows how fragile your quarterly plan is. I wonder how many hours were wasted on things that were scrapped?

Aras Kaleda/Change Manager19:10:27

reduce of cost per deployment - isn't it because deployments itself are smaller and brings smaller value ?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:54

No, it was literally the same size with less people needed.

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY19:10:02

Size of deployment doesnโ€™t correlate to size of value!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:06

They are still dropping batch size and improving

Rob Ables19:10:11

People want their Xbox and they want it now. Way to deliver ๐Ÿ™‚

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Jack Vinson - flow19:10:42

Awesome. Thanks! ๐Ÿ‘

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:49

really interesting wrt COVID, how making things better allowed you to be resilient, to survive something you never expected.

Woody Evans19:10:52

"Why is such more important than what" Exactly.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:24

We are professional software engineers. You donโ€™t tell a contractor how to build your house. Let us decide how to solve your problems. Just give us the right ones so we arenโ€™t solving the problem of improving our code coverage and velocity.

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)20:10:46

If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. - Antoine De Saint-Exuprey

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:41

clear goals + ownership < great combination

Nick Eggleston19:10:58

How do u differentiate between ownership and accountability?

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:22

If you have ownership, you have decision authority

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:50

Accountability is just being responsible for the outcomes of someone else's decisions.

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans19:10:04

Solving problems is why I became an engineer in the first place.

Daniel Cahill - Engineer - Ontario Systems19:10:28

What's the code coverage rant? I don't think I've heard you talk about that yet.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:37

Surely the goal is velocity and Say/Do Ratio? ๐Ÿ˜‰

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:42

is using best practice ironically a best practice?

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Joรฃo Acabado - Principal Engineer - Sky UK19:10:12

I'd prefer a marginally better pratice

Ferrix Hovi - Principal Engineering Avocado - SOK (S Group)19:10:01

@bryan.finster I keep repeating this: Why are you hiring specialists if you don't need specialists? Trying to control them does not work.

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:09

Sorry, I really canโ€™t talk about the impact we have on real humans without feeling it a bit. Bear with me.

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:37

This hasnโ€™t been an easy journey and those of us across the enterprise whoโ€™ve been conspiring and driving this mission donโ€™t see it as a job. When I read the Unicorn Project, I felt it deeply. Even raged at Gene a couple of times when a memory was triggered as I was reading the pre-release. It takes passionate people who want to help. It also requires direct engagement from executives who are asking the right questions, encouraging people, and recognizing improvement.

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY19:10:13

As always awesome @bryan.finster !

Jeffrey Fredrick, Author-Agile Conversations19:10:14

Donโ€™t miss the Finster #happy-hour tonight!

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Rob Ables19:10:24

Great concepts Bryan. Thank you.

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]19:10:28

Not bad for a corner shop

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Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans19:10:33

Awesome job @bryan.finster!!

Khaled Ezzughayyar19:10:41

Thanks @bryan.finster... Great talk!

Venkata L - American Airlines19:10:45

@bryan.finster - Could you share the articles you just referred.

Istvan Bathazi19:10:49

@bryan.finster thanks!!!๐Ÿ‘‹

Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)19:10:27

Great stuff @bryan.finster, I will be sharing this internally...

Dana Finster - Walmart InfoSec (Speaker)19:10:46

Loved following all the comments on here!!!! ๐Ÿ™‚

Nick Eggleston19:10:27

โ€œDevOps insurgentโ€ - love it

Roger Servey19:10:04

Great job @bryan.finster Always enjoy your talks!!

Michael Pai19:10:10

@bryan.finster Just watched your talk on the Walmart DevOps journey. I was particularly amused by the slide quoting Reddit that was the only one that didnโ€™t crash during the new Xbox and PS5 preorders. Can confirm here with my first hand experience. I had EB (GameStop), Best Buy, Amazon and Walmart on constant F5, and Walmart and Amazon were the only ones that worked. Great job guys and great talk! ๐Ÿ™‚

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Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:43

Thanks for shopping with us!

Bryan Finster - Walmart (Speaker)19:10:00

Even Amazon had issues for a bit. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY19:10:51

Hey @jgetzie @dana.finster @roger.d.servey !

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Roger Servey19:10:53

Hey Chris! Great conference

Jesse Getzie (Liatrio)19:10:53

Yo! Good to see all of you here.

Stephen Magill [Sonatype]19:10:46

Another great thing about Walmart is their support of open source. Theyโ€™ve open sourced their Concord project here: and weโ€™re featuring it in our DOES bug bash:

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Stephen Magill [Sonatype]19:10:23

Thanks @bryan.finster!

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)20:10:09

Welcome our next speaker @brandonp cc: @enelson!

Brandon Pulsipher20:10:23

Thank you @jessicam!.ย  Good day all!ย  I hope you are all doing well, staying healthy (both mentally and physically), and moving forward in your own journey. What a new and unique way to share and engage! Love to hear your thoughts and questions on this peak into the Adobe DevOps journey.ย Iโ€™m also interested in your insights and reflections on your own (personal and/or companyโ€™s) transformation.

Ryan Dobson - Motorola Solutions - RadioCentral20:10:16

define happiness in 3 words or less

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is it just me, or Track3 isn't streaming Adobe's video

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Tom Branch20:10:28

I can't view either

Ann Perry - IT Revolution20:10:53

We're working on the feed right now - apologies, everyone!

archana kataria20:10:53

just music on track 3

Brandon Pulsipher20:10:14

Wow - starting with the easy ones Ryan? Looks like we are still waiting for the video to start, so I'll take your question. How about: passion, relationships, impact


put it on 1.25 speed off the bat so it ends on time ๐Ÿ™‚

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Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY20:10:01

Adobe spark - one of the secrets for transformation success :)

Brandon Pulsipher20:10:29

Agree Chris, Adobe Spark is great for quick and easy storytelling

Elden Nelson20:10:26

(Video filmed and edited using Adobe Premiere Rush)


So cool watching @brandonp talk about Adobe Creative Cloud and platforms, as Iโ€™m making some last minute edits to some videos in Adobe Premiere. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Brandon Pulsipher20:10:39

Thanks Gene. My lens and insights here are a little more of the leadership view and how to help drive the cultural transformation and alignment, which I hope is helpful.

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Brandon Pulsipher20:10:17

Certainly, less technical than some of the other sessions, but I am a nerd at heart, so feel free to go deep on any questions or topics and, hopefully, I can tackle it--or follow-up.


This is great stuff, @brandonp โ€”ย I apologize that I canโ€™t watch the whole thing. Working a Sev 2 issue that threatens to become a Sev 1 issue. Iโ€™m sure youโ€™re familiar with the feeling โ€”ย had to create a Zoom session and rope more people in. ๐Ÿ˜‚

Matt Masuda - Quicken Loans20:10:24

@brandonp the cultural issues are at least half the battle.

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Loving that @brandonp talking about how Ops teams are helping Dev on-call procedures!!!

Jay Dee20:10:12

Right?!! Revolutionary!

Brandon Pulsipher20:10:14

Oh, on-call was (is?) a battle @genek

Ryan Dobson - Motorola Solutions - RadioCentral20:10:13

@brandonp Did you unify the tool stack or still enable teams to make their own decisions here?

Brandon Pulsipher20:10:30

Ryan, can you say more about 'tool stack'? I think I know the answer, but want to make sure I know what you are asking.

Brandon Pulsipher20:10:57

In the meantime, we've unified much of the tool stack, but have more to do. We centrally and commonly use JIRA, Git, Pagerduty, Splunk/Log Aggregation, a centralized service registry/CMDB to inventory our services, their dependencies, and SLO/SLTs.

Ryan Dobson - Motorola Solutions - RadioCentral20:10:13

Languages, IDEs, testing frameworks, static analysis tools, etc.

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:11

Languages - not as much, but to some extent. With a large company, lots of acquisitions, etc. we have to be a little flexible, but we have set standards for new components and where we want to go.

Ryan Dobson - Motorola Solutions - RadioCentral21:10:28

We struggle with finding the balance here - just wondering how far you are pushing this.


Love the idea of school scores == air budget!

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:54

For example, PHP is out, Java, React, NoSQL DB's are in (and putting some limits to have 2-3 of those, but not 9).

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:23

My son in jr. high school does not love the error budget. ๐Ÿ™‚


I love the description of the effects of putting SLOs in place!!!

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Brandon Pulsipher21:10:04

@ryan.dobson, we want to give teams some flexibility, but put 'guardrails' around our tech selection.

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:03

Maybe we need 2-3 languages or technologies to meet different needs, but if we go beyond that, it's challenging to effectively and efficiently delivery quality, security, etc. -

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(On PHP: @brandonp: Incidentally, I was telling @stephen a couple of days ago that I wanted to write my first PHP app, just to experience the feeling of being able to deploy one file at a time, without impact โ€”ย itโ€™s just so different than most app frameworks these days!)

Camilo Piedrahita - Bancolombia - IT Manager21:10:27

Brandon, are you breaking the pipeline by error budget?

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:34

In some areas - we choose 1


โ€œMy country doesnโ€™t allow me to be on-callโ€. ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚. (Iโ€™ve never heard that before!)

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Taylor Barnett21:10:00

I thought the same thing!

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:01

@capiedra, error budget is a tough concept - I think teams find they like it more than they thought they would, but it can be challenging to get all of the Product and Business leaders on board.

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)21:10:21

@brandonp Can you describe how you decompose "customer experience" so it's more observable?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:26

"Who owns DevOps" sounds an awkward question. All of its bases are belongs to all of us, no?

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Matt Cobby (Director of Engineering, Deloitte)18:10:53

I've faced this challenge, having run a team called the enterprise devops practice. It was a term that everyone wanted a piece of and yet no-one officially owned which meant that when any one team tried to push it, the organisation would resit the change as they were suspicious. Without the clear executive sponsorship, we struggled to make much impact outside of the friendly teams.

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:41

Mandate AND Movement - could be the perfect blend, I think I prefer heavier on Movement.


Itโ€™s so interesting: that the answer to โ€œwho owns DevOps? Is it a groundswell (bottom-up) or executive mandate (top-down)?โ€ Given @steve773 talk this morning, itโ€™s so clear that it requires both โ€”ย we need a structure that enables all these vast collaborations at scale, and so it seems, by definition, it MUST be both. (Sorry. Maybe obvious: but Iโ€™ve never had so much clarity that it MUST be both until now.) cc @mik @rshoup @jeff.gallimore Heck, the USAF story demonstrates this, too! ( @afurtado @lauren.knausenberger)

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Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)21:10:58

The candor between @afurtado and @lauren.knausenberger was one of the most inspiring moments of the conference so far.

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Randy Shoup21:10:34

Yup. Has to be top-down (permission, resources, support, incentives) and bottom-up (actions, knowledge, motivation)

Chris Gallivan, FCA, Builder of JOY21:10:21

I think the split is unique for your org between top and bottom

Nick Eggleston21:10:13

probably highly depends on the organitaional structure/mchanisms for adopting change (and learning)...

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:43

YAS on finding your why! should be every grown professional's to-do and every team's periodic reminder

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Jack Vinson - flow21:10:45

also depends a bit on what we mean by "owns".

Jack Vinson - flow21:10:12

There's still a lot of "who's throat to choke"

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:28, measuring customer experience is a journey of iterations as well. We worked with our Product and Customer Success teams to identify both qualitative and quantitative data, but we continue to improve it. For example, NPS is an input, but we then combine that with availability (not just of the app, but of the use cases). If a customer is logging in to do a job, let's measure that end to end experience...login, select page, make the transaction/configure the widget, confirm, logout - that's an oversimplification, of course. But then we can measure..

Andrew Hughes - Manager, DevOps Service Delivery QA (TRIMEDX)21:10:38

Nice! Yea I remembered this came up on Lean Coffee facilitated by a Google SRE (@davidstanke532). They use Critical User Journeys

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:14

How much of the time does that workflow complete? How long does it take? If 10s is the average, set anomaly alerts if it varies by more than x%.

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Really great presentation, @brandonp! Thank you!

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Nick Eggleston21:10:06

Loved the talk... sure would be great to leave 10-15 minutes between sessions to handle overruns and graceful transition between q&a,,, something we could experiment with tomorrow?

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)21:10:45

Welcome @me1342 and @ffion!

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional21:10:19

People have been talking about Psychological Safety for a day and a half already and I've been looking forward to learning from @me1342 and @ffion about it for the whole day and a half!

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:20

Thanks @jessicam excited to be here for questions on Psychological Safety and Impression Management!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:23

Thanks for the presentation @brandonp - great focus on measurement to intro this

Jess Meyer - IT Revolution (she/her)21:10:30

Continue the conversations of previous sessions #ask-the-speaker-more !

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive21:10:55

Great session @brandonp! Love how you all identified hundreds of DevOps champions to enable momentum across the organization.

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Brandon Pulsipher21:10:12

Thank you Jess and all - feel free to connect to share/discuss more!

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:13

@dan.sloan - thank you! Champions embedded WITHIN the teams were a huge part of this. You peer/co-worker/buddy suggesting changes can be really powerful - moreso than some exec asking (or telling) you to.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:40

Someone was saying earlier that definitions aren't all that - we think they matter

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:42

Psychological Safety initial Kahn definition: โ€œ(โ€ฆ)ย Being able to show and employ one's self without fear of negative consequences of self-image, status or career"; Prof Dr. Amy Edmondson definition: โ€œโ€œPsychological Safety is a shared belief that the team is safe for interpersonal risk takingโ€ย ; PeopleNotTechโ€™s definition: โ€œTeam = Familyโ€ and โ€œA Psychologically Safe team is one that feels like family and moves mountains together. Think back of the last time you made some magic with the team, how you were open and debated and were vulnerable and learning, creating and getting stuff done. That well-oiled machine that felt fun to be a part of. That was Psychologically Safe_.โ€_

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional21:10:37

I've been on some teams where it felt more like the Gambino family, like @me1342 just said ๐Ÿ™‚

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:16

Seriously! Not the most psychologically safe environment...

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:34

Chatted to @dominica yesterday about enabling the conditions for psychological safety, this would be the antithesis of those conditions I think.

Brandon Pulsipher21:10:08

Thanks @me1342 - Love... TEAM=FAMILY (and so relevant to 'safety') - back to our DevOps Champions example.

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:51

Will you be touching on 'measuring' it?

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:50

We will, a bit later on

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:54

We're all about measuring it so yes but the majority of this is about Impression Management.

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional21:10:32

YES! 2019 SODR was game changing, so right

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Nick Eggleston21:10:36

How does PS as defined relate to behaviors vs feelings?

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:42

Think @ffion is answering just that ๐Ÿ™‚ we measure both declaratively and by actions what some of those behaviours are

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:05

Psychological safety is a group behavioural norm but I'd say the fear that causes impression management is rooted in feelings

Aaron Brohimer - American Airlines - Delivery Transformation21:10:07

Sorry I missed it. What is Dr. Amy's last name? I'd like to check out her books.

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive21:10:38

Highly recommend Dr. Amy Edmonson's 2018 book, The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth:

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:52

One of our bibles!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:03

Boeing: 29% of people surveyed had fear of voicing concerns ๐Ÿ˜ž

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:54

The very real, human life side of low psychological safety

Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional21:10:14

does impostor syndrome figure into impression managment?

Nick Eggleston21:10:09

I am curious about how to look at what happened with James Damore at Google from the lens of Psych Safety as you see it.

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Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow21:10:09

Damore was attacking coworkers based on gender, not speaking up to management about institutional issues.

Nick Eggleston21:10:39

That's how it felt to some people, but I don't think that included the full context -- just one side of a very heated issue.

Nick Eggleston21:10:14

This should make for an interesting analysis

Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow21:10:27

There was no other side. Attacking coworkers is the opposite of psychological safety

Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow21:10:09

Discrimination is not a protected for of speech

Nick Eggleston21:10:02

I read the docuemnt and listened to interviews and i think "attacked" is inaccurate... though it's clear some people were very upset.

Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow21:10:42

Calling someone less valuable because of their gender is a baseless attack

Chris Hunt, SRE at Stack Overflow21:10:27

Tolerance of that behavior will destroy a team and organization.

Nick Eggleston21:10:46

I didn't see where anyone was called less valuable. I am curious what part of the document you saw that in. Sometimes words or phrases are interpreted differently, depending on the context from where they are read.

Nick Eggleston21:10:24

"we will make people speak up!" - seems very intrusive and will produce inauthenticity

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:51

Definitely counter intuitive to psychological safety

Jack Vinson - flow21:10:58

You are safe now. Please tell us what you feel.

Nick Eggleston21:10:37

Haha I bet there was no "please"

Philip Day21:10:24

it happens at the top - ๐Ÿ‘

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Dave Mangot - DevOps transformation professional21:10:26

sounds like "the system rewards staying within the lines, not innovation"

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:42

In some cases we will be bucking the system by creating psychological safety @dave as it's built on command and control

Nick Eggleston21:10:03

@jonathansmart1 is there a CPSP talk in the future... forcing people to be vulnerable and speak up.. collecting and satirinzing all the anti-patterns? hehe

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:40

"Do we agree?" really meaning "we'll keep going until you agree with me"

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Adam Eury - Nike - Release Deploy Lead21:10:27

This sounds like the confidence vote at the end of PI Planning. "No resources have been added and no scope has been removed, is anyone still below a 3 now?"

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Levi Geinert21:10:08

The digital transformations will continue until moral improves!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:47

COVID finished all our digital transformations anyhow didn't it? Hi there!

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Levi Geinert21:10:16

Hi @me1342 and @ffion great to have you presenting! Glad you found our community!

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Nick Eggleston21:10:40

Please tell us what you really think, and ask hard questions --- as long as what you thinks is what we want and you don't ask or challenge what we are uncomfortable with...

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:20

@nickeggleston and we'll never change the way we think or do anything!

Craig Cook - IBM21:10:29

Ah, sounds like "mood marbles".

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:01

Does a bit and not genius but better than the yearly survey

Manny Avila - Consulting Engineer, Cloud and Datacenter - JD Finish Line21:10:34

wow....mind blowing....Human Debt? never thought of that...

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Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure21:10:18

We started to BPM (Blameless Post Mortem) that really did not feel very โ€œBโ€ so I had the leadership stop and read Dekkerโ€™s books โ€œJust Cultureโ€ and โ€œDrift into failureโ€. This changed the way โ€œBโ€ was being seen and approached..

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Jack Vinson - flow21:10:12

Impression Mgmt is a big element of the meeting-meeting-meeting culture

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure21:10:46

I had built a safe team culture by doing Team BPM and everyone was comfortable talking about their involvement and actions etc.. then when the org adpoted BPM many of the managers were looking at the Who and stopping thereโ€ฆ Making my team feel very uncomfortableโ€ฆ I stepped in and started to push beyond the Who, only using them as a first person experience, then dove more in the Why, How, What, and what can done to preventโ€ฆ This changed the direction and feeling of the investigation and outcomes..

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure21:10:04

That was when I started a Manager book-club with Dekker books..

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive21:10:00

OKR for Psych Safety - compelling idea!

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:28

@dan.sloan putting the collective behaviour at the top of the agenda drives performance directly

Dan Sloan, Cox Automotive21:10:40

We have measured PS at a macro-level through our enterprise-wise pulse survey, but I would love suggestions for what the KR in OKR might look like for PS at a more local level? Given that it's a group-level phenom, we haven't gotten as much out of the pulse data; seems like a local level would be more relevant in the group context. Appreciate any insights you can share!

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:54

Here's some hands-on stuff as well! You can do this today with or without us - please do

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:55

How do you get the feedback loop on PS behavioural norms in relation to how a leader acts and rewards certain behaviours (in an image of their own view of good behaviour)? i.e. a leader with a low PS behavioural norm is least likely to ask for a feedback loop on PS. e.g. Westrum pathalogical cultural type

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:38

The Dashboard we created reinforces the loop irrespective of the leader's view. A bit devious like that ๐Ÿ™‚

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:35

Then their boss can shout at them to have better PS or else ๐Ÿ˜‰

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:02

No one but the team sees these - bubble level not an organisational tool ๐Ÿ™‚

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:36

How does a manager / leader / commander, who reinforces the behavioural norms get a feedback loop?

Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:40

e.g. the commercial managers at Boeing who didn't listen to the engineering managers

Marc Boudreau (Enterprise Architect)21:10:56

Team B!tchfests FTW!

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:53

My favourite ones. Today we had a design session on doing those in a 3D virtual world

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Misty (American Airlines)21:10:17

We call them Vegas Therapy sessions.

Tim Haagenson, Software Engineer, American Airlines21:10:40

Do you have recommendations for improving psychological safety for teams that may include a deaf member or similar?

Tim Haagenson, Software Engineer, American Airlines21:10:35

Not always with video/voice chat being the typical for team functions

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:26

Inclusivity is critical for psychological safety, empathy with everyone's needs will be required. Leader 1:1 with everyone to understand their needs coupled with open honest discussion within the team. This relates also to setting teams up really well for the hybrid work environment - teams need to be open and honest with each other about their needs and barriers to success so they can work out their own bespoke ways of working

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:32

Apologies for saying "us in Europe" :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:51

There's more on our thinking, how to encourage Speaking Up and discourage Impression Management atย http://www.psychologicalsafety.worksย but a lot of the hints, suggestions and interventions that we do with some teams are detailed in our YouTube channel where we publish every Tuesdayย on LinkedIn in theย Chasing Psychological Safety series:ยย and The Future Is Agile series:

Adam Eury - Nike - Release Deploy Lead21:10:13

Anyone have a case study on building PS specifically geared for Americans leading distributed international teams?

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Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:49

What makes you think there's a cultural component? We work with teams globally - haven't seen differences

Craig Cook - IBM21:10:38

There was a keynote presentation at All Things Open ~2yrs ago about this. She referred to a book about global cultures.


When there are remote offices with entrenched culture, or just a large difference in culture, you can find that you're speaking a different variety of english.


E.g. in indian teams, it's hard to get a direct "no" sometimes.

Rikard Ottosson - Psychological Safety (People Not Tech Ltd)21:10:38

Agreed, but it is up to the team to recognise that sometimes we need to actually get a no across, and figure out a way to do that, that is comfortable to the team.


At least until it becomes clear to the team that it's OK and expected (it's culturally uncomfortable, but really necessary for americans)


I'm speaking to @me1342 as to the cultural component.


It seems clear in my experience that it is consious work that needs to be done for cultural as well as other reasons - it seems like there could/would be a case study on that somewhere.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:53

We had a discussion on working on a cultural aspect for a study as it stands to reason but I haven't seen any data in the teams that are using the software to support that

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech21:10:13

Beyond how some german teams don't like humour :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Adam Eury - Nike - Release Deploy Lead21:10:22

My understanding of PS might be too shallow or I'm trying to extend the concept too far but i fail to understand how the same factors that impact culture more broadly wouldn't impact PS when I see them daily in how team members (and leadership) interact with each other.

Craig Cook - IBM21:10:59

There are definitely culture differences with various countries.

Duena Blomstrom, Psychological Safety Dashboard CEO, Author PeopleBeforeTech22:10:10

@adam.eury the degree to which people are willing to engage initially vary, the different leadership styles differ, the amount of impression management they have and how great the Human Debt is varies BUT ultimately, at the end of the day, if you reach people - if you really get to the bottom of the concepts in the people work then it equalises as they are general human behaviours

Denver Martin - Sr. Mgr Cloud Ops Infrastructure21:10:03

Thanks for the great talkโ€ฆ

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Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:19

Thanks so much everyone!

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Jon Smart [Sooner Safer Happier]21:10:29

Thank you @me1342 @ffion!

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Thank you so much! @me1342ย @ffion

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Nick Eggleston21:10:33

Thanks @me1342 and @ffion for the very interesting talk!

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Nick Eggleston21:10:26

I really loved the Google research in this area and am glad that this group has picked up on it.

Ffion Jones (Partner, PeopleNotTech)21:10:54

This group is seriously switched on to psychological safety and the Google research is totally fascinating stuff.