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2020-10-14
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Hey buddy... been a bot crazy. I haven't had a real job i n 35 years... It's all good just not use to bigCo stuff .. still adjusting.
That would have been great, though I couldn’t have shelled out the full fee from personal funds, so virtual works out this time...
Onbe of the advanced topics we are working on with Jabe is what is called Recommoning from Design Transition (his PHD). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mvDBirZ3Jk
I’m glad you’re looking ahead to what’s post DevOps (or what DevOps will include next)
I'll stop spamming but this important stuff if you find my presentation interesting.
> If we're talking about GitOps and CI/CD five years from now, we haven't gotten anywhere.
Organizational Conversations - any of these recorded we can watch?
“the people at the edge” < this has been a theme lately, that learning needs to be happening at the edge, at the periphery
And where a lot of under appreciated intelligence and data lies...
“looking at things that go right” < harder to do, unintuitive… lots of untapped learning!
https://republicans-oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Equifax-Report.pdf
the iceberg of ignorance is why I ask people “are you happy?” < I expect their unhappiness to be a leading indicator of project problems
And the variants of that: 1. Does your team feel cohesive; 2. Is your onboarding process long or short; 3. Do you feel like your team members have your back; do you have theirs
I start all my interviews with what are the things your company is not doing and should be... It opens the flood gates
One of my other questions is “is there anything that you’d expect to be happening that isn’t happening?” < very similar in intent
I say "my job is to find out from you all the things you've been telling management for years, write it down, and then present it to them, at which point they'll tell me that my ideas are amazing, like I've been working at the company for years" 😆
modernization and classic EA is terribly out of sync in. most enterprise in 2020
I keep hearing Network Flight Recorder for NFR, I'm old
One of my quotes is that you can multiply your suckness score by the number of review boards you have..
@jwillis your earlier slide about the three eras map to three management models. Model 1: Generate Capital. Starts with the age of sail and Dutch East indies company. Model 2: Generate Scale. Henry Ford/Taylorism. Model 3: Generate innovations - Toyota Management System and the Agile/DevOps model (@steve773’s See - Swarm - Solve - Share)
Paula.. I line this from HJal LIberty (Chef Economist at Google) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqaA-fgdXEE
"We quote the hell out of Deming, maybe we should start listening to him. " I'm going to quote the hell out of this quote!
You're bringing me back to my Operations Research classes in college -- optimal places are at the edges! @jwillis
Nobody comes to work planing to blow it up. And yet, mistakes happen.
https://medium.com/@johnwillis/misunderstanding-variation-is-the-root-of-all-evil-b204cd7f6474
@jwillis come join the @bryan.finster after hours and sprinkle in another 30
Yep, we'll definitely be hosting another after party to visit with friends
After the sponsored happy hours we'll post a Zoom and pretend we met at the bar.
https://zoom.us/j/93857848084?pwd=TDVmWnZ4THlJdzU1aFIwbUpmdlhXUT09
too late for me, gotta cook dinner for family
I can see I’ll be doing some reading about recommoning
in the meta it's an interface abstraction that bounds differentiation and scale. The down to earth version might be atomic compute and clusters. a Cloud Native answer is containers and K8.
Loved these concepts in Project to Product about becoming good at delivering software is the only way to survive
Great talk @jwillis! It is kind of surprising to see all the resistance there is in many companies still in 2020 to adopt many of the cultural aspects you mentioned. Thank you saying all this out loud! BTW, will this recording be publicly available later? I would love to re-watch it and make a note of all those great quotes you included in there 🙂
Jeffery... If you watch https://www.onafuwa.com/'s presentation he talks about how he used recommining for smart cities and he has some really cool things with his cards. I really would like to map this stuff to IT personas .. ITsec, EA ... let me know if yount to9 explore more..
I’m definitely interested in exploring more @jwillis!
@jwillis, Where and how should we hit you up for the nextgen conversations?
Is there any suggested reading or videos on how to build good platforms? I feel like right now we are just building a platform that is okay.
I never miss a @jwillis talk, and each time I'm reminded of why
Will be interesting to hear the difficulties others are facing and how you're overcoming them.
For us, it’s about where to start and how do we scale and many people want to start with getting a tool as step 1. I’ve been recommending that we really focus on getting the structure/processes/mindset in place first before we focus on a “tool”.
It sounds like we had a similar issue where we focused on getting the reporting layer of OKRs correct first, assuming the mindset will follow. From our experience, the mindset of realising value above just 'project delivery' is the most important thing.
i was told "write some OKRs" - i had to google OKR. never received any context or real direction
We realised that project delivery of “things” was often value destroying, as the focus was on tasks, rather than a focus on what our customers wanted
There was training, but it was so general and not at al related to our context.
the first step for us was to tell that OKRs and business metrics are not the same. our leadership kept on making that same mistake and kept an asking for daily rpeorts on OKR progress like its another way to monitor daily operations
this was about 3 weeks ago and most of the feedback I am getting is "you are doing it wrong"
I agree, you'll see later in the presentation that we're trying to give more support this time round, simplifying language and accepting 'good enough'. From the outset, accepting good enough OKRs seems to be a backwards step, but it really does help build psychological safety and encourages teams to explore why OKRs are useful. If they are only writing OKRs for reporting purposes they will never get the true value from them.
adopting OKRs is not simple but once you are able to do it, its extremely rewarding. this is how we did it: • leadership has to buy in and really understand how OKRs are different. a few other concepts might come in handy too like cross functional teams. at the end of the day, its the business objective that matters and not function specific objectives. marketings objective in isolation dont make sense. • about the last sentence in my previous point, you can still do it. but do it later. first break the boundaries to understand the meaning of objectives. do it a few times and then realize in what ways your company and functions within them must set their ojbectives. for us, priority is for company OKRs and their children. after that, teams can have their unaligned OKRs (i.e. OKRs not alogned to top company OKRs but aligned to lines of businesses). and lastly excellence OKRs - think systemic improvements or DevOps goals. • leaders will really have to commit to OKRs. and then learn it. and then write OKRs themselves and have others review. in retrospect, I wish we created a dojo for OKRs. getting the verbiage of OKRs right is extremely important to communicate goals well. how we did this was that the leadership was working with every manager and their teams in review ORKs and giving them feedback on specificity, verbiage, ambitiousness, and calling out possibility to get explicit alignment. and we did a lot of other things. happy to talk more about this. I was deeply involved in driving OKRs at my company.
we also used OKRs for perosnal growth. that was after everyone (almost) understood what OKRs are and preferred it as the way to set any kind of goals
i'd also add governance for OKRs to that list to make the operational aspects of OKRs successful
Is this implying the OKR information is flowing up instead of down?
It needs to flow both ways - one of the behaviours we are trying to correct is the “fire and forget” instructions, and making feedback a key ingredient
@peterlear @kimberley.wilson2 This has been a challenge for us this past year. We did a "set and forget". This time around, we're investing more in how to track along the way. But we also have the problem of a lack of feedback loop around the org on the OKRs themselves. What did you find successful in injecting feedback loops into OKR writing and tracking along the way?
For us, the shift to support and coaching is starting to help Teams themselves understand the value in checking their OKRs, course correcting and improving them. The interesting thing for us going forward is to see whether this causes a conflict for some of our governance processes, where course correction might not be seen as a positive thing.
I'm hosting the Lean Coffee on Leadership Alignment (Room 2) today and tomorrow. Just sayin'...
Is “depends” an ok answer - by that I mean it will depending on the size of the goal, if you believe that an organisation doesn’t need lots of OKRs in order to focus on valuable work, but we have been using the OKR format for individual goals to get into a good habit (but recognising they are not full OKRs)
one of my favorite sites to point people to when they are curious about OKRs - https://felipecastro.com/en/okr/
awesome website, should have read it before the presentation to have a better context. Was able to catch up now and match the information in the site to my notes of the talk, so thanks 😉
100% agree @chawklady. I reference this site often in my own team OKRs and when trying to coach others.
How determine the correct OKRs to work during the planning of the next year?
The first step is to work out what value you want to realise, linked to your Strategic Goals. YUsually once you set a clear goal, teams themselves will be able to suggest which OKRs are most recommended to achieve these goals, creating a very visible golden thread from OKR to Strategy. Pivoting to value goals means you can continuously check whether you're on track to realise your value/Strategic Goals and course correct if necessary.
how to define OKR for "enablers" teams? its so complicated for us defining these OKR, because they don't have direct impact to business
Hi Camilo - my favourite question! Enablers are OK, as long as they can see directly how they contribute to Value for whatever they are enabling, but we found that work that classed itself as enabling, had lost sight of what they were enabling - really important to check them early!
Its a lot of project vs product thought process
@capiedra This thread gave me some good insights here... https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/archives/CATJP0R0X/p1601074051032200 For our enabler or platform teams, their mission was to get out of product teams' (a.k.a stream-aligned teams) way. So they started measuring things that directly improve the 4 Software Delivery & Operational (SDO) metrics on those teams. Some additional examples: • Deployment lead time for teams (if they played a part in teams getting things deployed) • CX metrics like Developer NPS (i.e. how likely would you use our internal platform vs. something else) or Customer Effort Score (CES) (i.e. how easy or difficult is it to use our internal platform, APIs, etc. to do your job)
Completely agree. We've learnt that often supporting/coaching has a much greater and long lasting impact on teams than our previous approach of 'correcting them'.
In our technology function, we setup a group of eng leaders as volunteers to go out of their verticals to act as OKR reviewers, working with teams, giving them feedback
which also ends up doubling up as an organic way to relay information between verticals
Hi Rasika we have learnt that the templating is dangerous, but dialogue amongst colleagues and teams is really healthy to create and review OKRs before you commit to them
1Thanks for sharing @peterlear and @kimberley.wilson2 Hard to get the cultural aspects in place.
I was hoping for Bryan Cranston but I guess I'll stay.
So great to have someone representing their small local retailer.
If you want to talk to @bryan.finster forever - join our group : https://join.slack.com/t/dojo-consortium/shared_invite/zt-i8evcatu-jDWbE7r855KKryGsm~IfwA
It couldn’t be imposed from the outside. The architect team I was on spent a lot of time advocating for teams to improve their CD capabilities, but it never took off. Finally I asked to get back on a product team as tech lead instead of shouting from our ivory tower. The team was dead average, not hand-picked. It only took 3-4 of us on the team trying to solve the problem to bring everyone else along. I posted the rules for CI in the team area and every day asked “what’s the current impediment?”. Then we solved the problem together.
The embedding or liaison model is a key way to achieve these types of changes. We used this in our transformation. Team of Teams did a great job of illustrating the value of this to build empathy, create shared mission and push decision making to the lowest levels. @david627 @jessica.reif
I also know from my fails that my team is smarter than I am. We, as a network of developers across the enterprise, are smarter the bigger the network is. Anyone who wants to help drive is on my team and an equal partner. It's terrible for career growth because they win, not me. It moves the mission forward though. I'm here for the mission.
there is so much goodness in that slide @bryan.finster!
is that enough? what about infrastructure standardization?
I highly recommend Engineering the Digital Transformation by Gary Gruver. It’s a practical guide to what, why, and how for anyone looking for where to start.
Would love to see that glossary of testing terms, just been going through some of that pain
It took us some time, but we have consensus. it's a worthwhile effort.
Getting teams to migrate is so much easier when the alternative is that their VP will need to find a way to pay for their existing tools if they choose not to. 😉
I've heard several talks today mention building a delivery platform. What types of things were you adding on that you couldn't get out of the box? For reference, I use a lot of Jenkins right now.
Automated compliance, automated security, being able to deploy to all of our environments. Artifact repo, many more
Jenkins is a fine tool. Optimizing delivery platform is about finding how you can build out a centralized experience so every team doesn't have to invent their own way of using the tools.
related to your commend "Getting teams to migrate is so much easier when the alternative is that their VP will need to find a way to pay for their existing tools if they choose not to." @bryan.finster: I assume the funding for the central delivery platform came centrally, so that the dev teams didnt need to "pay" for it internally (like an internal cost recovery mode)?
Yes. A central platform area was created to do this for the enterprise.
@bryan.finster How do you create the environment where those "point" tools don't re-emerge? I assume they evolved because of some need that was perceived.
The existed because there was no central platform. Budget and the CIO wanting global metrics discourage that.
so others can learn from our problems. : :thumbsup:
With our current tooling, I can go from nothing to a new service heartbeat in production in 10 minutes. We’re making that better. It’s really important that CD Platform understands the goals and demonstrates the culture; intense customer focus and eating your own dog food. We deploy Concord with Concord. We publish post mortems and advertise when we do so others can learn from our problems.
I like the horizontal connection across teams. great leverage of total combined knowledge.
Bryan are you including E2E test, security test or acceptance test in the pipeline? 10 minutes 😮 this is our time in test :S
I like this community approach. Sometimes hard to start but always worth it.
I really want to do a talk on metrics, gamification, and the “Coaching as a Service” application my team built to tie Hygieia data and improvement suggestions together. This continues to pay dividends with no effort from us. @genek101;)
the investment in community is so important if you want the change to last
how do you enable these communities centrally @bryan.finster? any special setup or support provided or you just kick them off and let them grow and manage themselves organically?
We shower anyone wanting to start one with any support we can, including advertising.
I can confirm that. In a company as big as ours, we have communities showing up everywhere, but a lot of repetition and struggle to break the silos and bring similar minds together
Yep. When I see duplication, I introduce people to each other.
At Walmart - Communities of Practice, Internal DevOps Days & T-Shirts. Brilliant ideas!
reminds me of the point in Team of Teams of the Leader as Gardener. Creating the communities is a great example of gardening!
You can garden in your organization like they are annual crops, one batch after another. Or you can be looking to make changes to the landscape (swales) that will help guide resources (water, information) in such a way as to make a long term sustainable system (community). A “learnaculture” approach.
I was booked to facilit... garden the wine lottery on Friday. I hesitated to say yes because I am going to be so tired...
Enough dimensions and more badges... that's how Untappd does it.
"As a 5-star team we need star six to increase bragging."
We aren’t a “center of excellence”. That’s where good ideas go to die. We help teams solve problems and broadcast those solutions to the org so everyone can learn. We practice what we preach. We are developers. We’ve never stopped developing. We also work to build connections between teams in different orgs to push improvement to the edge.
I thought you know best and tell people what to do? The DevOps Dictator 😉
push improvement to the edge < and collect learning from the edge!
Oh, i DO know best. I just help them find my solution. 😉
Have you seen any teams that discover they improve past the business need? I had a scenario where the team went from "the bottleneck" to being able to respond faster than the business could absorb the changes. The bottleneck shifted.
We got called a Center of Excellence... I hate it.
I never know if COE is Center or Expertise or Excellence. I guess it does not matter much? 😄
"I'm not responsible for your delivery, but I can enable you to help yourself. "
@jonathansmart1: excellent point, I never gave it much thought on the meaning of COE, just accepted it for whatever the person on the other said meant with it
Leadership support is critical. We've not always had it. We kept driving, but it was mostly just to keep from losing ground.
http://Walmart.CA had some senior devs who were passionate about CD who worked closely with Platform and the Dojo to help them build out that capability on the teams. It takes persistence and determination with support from management and allies in the teams to do this.
A year later, they were rocking! The grudging accolades they received from social media were awesome.
The flood of "I hate to say this about Walmart, but..." was awesome.
This sounds so familiar that my team must be doing something right... or then we are both failing @bryan.finster.
@bryan.finster Love your additional comments here in the chat. This is one way that I think virtual events can be better than in-person.
copyright @jtf for giving me the idea during the after party.
I stole it from someone from DOES London! unfortuatntely I can’t remember her name 😞
I love being able to interact with speakers and other audience members in real time.
COVID really shows how fragile your quarterly plan is. I wonder how many hours were wasted on things that were scrapped?
reduce of cost per deployment - isn't it because deployments itself are smaller and brings smaller value ?
No, it was literally the same size with less people needed.
really interesting wrt COVID, how making things better allowed you to be resilient, to survive something you never expected.
We are professional software engineers. You don’t tell a contractor how to build your house. Let us decide how to solve your problems. Just give us the right ones so we aren’t solving the problem of improving our code coverage and velocity.
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. - Antoine De Saint-Exuprey
Accountability is just being responsible for the outcomes of someone else's decisions.
What's the code coverage rant? I don't think I've heard you talk about that yet.
is using best practice ironically a best practice?
@bryan.finster I keep repeating this: Why are you hiring specialists if you don't need specialists? Trying to control them does not work.
Sorry, I really can’t talk about the impact we have on real humans without feeling it a bit. Bear with me.
This hasn’t been an easy journey and those of us across the enterprise who’ve been conspiring and driving this mission don’t see it as a job. When I read the Unicorn Project, I felt it deeply. Even raged at Gene a couple of times when a memory was triggered as I was reading the pre-release. It takes passionate people who want to help. It also requires direct engagement from executives who are asking the right questions, encouraging people, and recognizing improvement.
@bryan.finster - Could you share the articles you just referred.
Don't know if you saw this https://devopsenterprise.slack.com/archives/C0150HQB6UX/p1602704170463700
@bryan.finster Just watched your talk on the Walmart DevOps journey. I was particularly amused by the slide quoting Reddit that http://Walmart.ca was the only one that didn’t crash during the new Xbox and PS5 preorders. Can confirm here with my first hand experience. I had EB (GameStop), Best Buy, Amazon and Walmart on constant F5, and Walmart and Amazon were the only ones that worked. Great job guys and great talk! 🙂
2Another great thing about Walmart is their support of open source. They’ve open sourced their Concord project here: https://github.com/walmartlabs/concord and we’re featuring it in our DOES bug bash: https://bugbash.muse.dev/
Thank you @jessicam!. Good day all! I hope you are all doing well, staying healthy (both mentally and physically), and moving forward in your own journey. What a new and unique way to share and engage! Love to hear your thoughts and questions on this peak into the Adobe DevOps journey. I’m also interested in your insights and reflections on your own (personal and/or company’s) transformation.
Wow - starting with the easy ones Ryan? Looks like we are still waiting for the video to start, so I'll take your question. How about: passion, relationships, impact
Adobe spark - one of the secrets for transformation success :)
So cool watching @brandonp talk about Adobe Creative Cloud and platforms, as I’m making some last minute edits to some videos in Adobe Premiere. 🙂
Thanks Gene. My lens and insights here are a little more of the leadership view and how to help drive the cultural transformation and alignment, which I hope is helpful.
Certainly, less technical than some of the other sessions, but I am a nerd at heart, so feel free to go deep on any questions or topics and, hopefully, I can tackle it--or follow-up.
This is great stuff, @brandonp — I apologize that I can’t watch the whole thing. Working a Sev 2 issue that threatens to become a Sev 1 issue. I’m sure you’re familiar with the feeling — had to create a Zoom session and rope more people in. 😂
Loving that @brandonp talking about how Ops teams are helping Dev on-call procedures!!!
@brandonp Did you unify the tool stack or still enable teams to make their own decisions here?
Ryan, can you say more about 'tool stack'? I think I know the answer, but want to make sure I know what you are asking.
In the meantime, we've unified much of the tool stack, but have more to do. We centrally and commonly use JIRA, Git, Pagerduty, Splunk/Log Aggregation, a centralized service registry/CMDB to inventory our services, their dependencies, and SLO/SLTs.
Languages, IDEs, testing frameworks, static analysis tools, etc.
Languages - not as much, but to some extent. With a large company, lots of acquisitions, etc. we have to be a little flexible, but we have set standards for new components and where we want to go.
We struggle with finding the balance here - just wondering how far you are pushing this.
For example, PHP is out, Java, React, NoSQL DB's are in (and putting some limits to have 2-3 of those, but not 9).
@ryan.dobson, we want to give teams some flexibility, but put 'guardrails' around our tech selection.
Maybe we need 2-3 languages or technologies to meet different needs, but if we go beyond that, it's challenging to effectively and efficiently delivery quality, security, etc. -
(On PHP: @brandonp: Incidentally, I was telling @stephen a couple of days ago that I wanted to write my first PHP app, just to experience the feeling of being able to deploy one file at a time, without impact — it’s just so different than most app frameworks these days!)
Brandon, are you breaking the pipeline by error budget?
“My country doesn’t allow me to be on-call”. 😂😂😂. (I’ve never heard that before!)
@capiedra, error budget is a tough concept - I think teams find they like it more than they thought they would, but it can be challenging to get all of the Product and Business leaders on board.
@brandonp Can you describe how you decompose "customer experience" so it's more observable?
"Who owns DevOps" sounds an awkward question. All of its bases are belongs to all of us, no?
I've faced this challenge, having run a team called the enterprise devops practice. It was a term that everyone wanted a piece of and yet no-one officially owned which meant that when any one team tried to push it, the organisation would resit the change as they were suspicious. Without the clear executive sponsorship, we struggled to make much impact outside of the friendly teams.
^^ currently working through that @me1342
Mandate AND Movement - could be the perfect blend, I think I prefer heavier on Movement.
It’s so interesting: that the answer to “who owns DevOps? Is it a groundswell (bottom-up) or executive mandate (top-down)?” Given @steve773 talk this morning, it’s so clear that it requires both — we need a structure that enables all these vast collaborations at scale, and so it seems, by definition, it MUST be both. (Sorry. Maybe obvious: but I’ve never had so much clarity that it MUST be both until now.) cc @mik @rshoup @jeff.gallimore Heck, the USAF story demonstrates this, too! ( @afurtado @lauren.knausenberger)
The candor between @afurtado and @lauren.knausenberger was one of the most inspiring moments of the conference so far.
Yup. Has to be top-down (permission, resources, support, incentives) and bottom-up (actions, knowledge, motivation)
I think the split is unique for your org between top and bottom
probably highly depends on the organitaional structure/mchanisms for adopting change (and learning)...
YAS on finding your why! should be every grown professional's to-do and every team's periodic reminder
@andrew.hughes, measuring customer experience is a journey of iterations as well. We worked with our Product and Customer Success teams to identify both qualitative and quantitative data, but we continue to improve it. For example, NPS is an input, but we then combine that with availability (not just of the app, but of the use cases). If a customer is logging in to do a job, let's measure that end to end experience...login, select page, make the transaction/configure the widget, confirm, logout - that's an oversimplification, of course. But then we can measure..
Nice! Yea I remembered this came up on Lean Coffee facilitated by a Google SRE (@davidstanke532). They use Critical User Journeys
Yep! Here’s an intro to the concept from a Google PM: https://medium.com/initialized-capital/what-to-do-if-your-product-isnt-growing-7eb9d158fc
…and here’s how those CUJs get used in an SRE context: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/management-tools/practical-guide-to-setting-slos
Excellent! Thanks @davidstanke532 !!
How much of the time does that workflow complete? How long does it take? If 10s is the average, set anomaly alerts if it varies by more than x%.
Loved the talk... sure would be great to leave 10-15 minutes between sessions to handle overruns and graceful transition between q&a,,, something we could experiment with tomorrow?
People have been talking about Psychological Safety for a day and a half already and I've been looking forward to learning from @me1342 and @ffion about it for the whole day and a half!
Thanks @jessicam excited to be here for questions on Psychological Safety and Impression Management!
Thanks for the presentation @brandonp - great focus on measurement to intro this
Continue the conversations of previous sessions #ask-the-speaker-more !
Great session @brandonp! Love how you all identified hundreds of DevOps champions to enable momentum across the organization.
@dan.sloan - thank you! Champions embedded WITHIN the teams were a huge part of this. You peer/co-worker/buddy suggesting changes can be really powerful - moreso than some exec asking (or telling) you to.
Someone was saying earlier that definitions aren't all that - we think they matter
Psychological Safety initial Kahn definition: “(…) Being able to show and employ one's self without fear of negative consequences of self-image, status or career"; Prof Dr. Amy Edmondson definition: ““Psychological Safety is a shared belief that the team is safe for interpersonal risk taking” ; PeopleNotTech’s definition: “Team = Family” and “A Psychologically Safe team is one that feels like family and moves mountains together. Think back of the last time you made some magic with the team, how you were open and debated and were vulnerable and learning, creating and getting stuff done. That well-oiled machine that felt fun to be a part of. That was Psychologically Safe_.”_
I've been on some teams where it felt more like the Gambino family, like @me1342 just said 🙂
Seriously! Not the most psychologically safe environment...
Chatted to @dominica yesterday about enabling the conditions for psychological safety, this would be the antithesis of those conditions I think.
Thanks @me1342 - Love... TEAM=FAMILY (and so relevant to 'safety') - back to our DevOps Champions example.
We're all about measuring it so yes but the majority of this is about Impression Management.
YES! 2019 SODR was game changing, so right
Think @ffion is answering just that 🙂 we measure both declaratively and by actions what some of those behaviours are
Psychological safety is a group behavioural norm but I'd say the fear that causes impression management is rooted in feelings
Sorry I missed it. What is Dr. Amy's last name? I'd like to check out her books.
Highly recommend Dr. Amy Edmonson's 2018 book, The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119477247/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_lN0HFbQD927DY
Boeing: 29% of people surveyed had fear of voicing concerns 😞
The very real, human life side of low psychological safety
does impostor syndrome figure into impression managment?
I am curious about how to look at what happened with James Damore at Google from the lens of Psych Safety as you see it.
Damore was attacking coworkers based on gender, not speaking up to management about institutional issues.
That's how it felt to some people, but I don't think that included the full context -- just one side of a very heated issue.
There was no other side. Attacking coworkers is the opposite of psychological safety
I read the docuemnt and listened to interviews and i think "attacked" is inaccurate... though it's clear some people were very upset.
Calling someone less valuable because of their gender is a baseless attack
Tolerance of that behavior will destroy a team and organization.
I didn't see where anyone was called less valuable. I am curious what part of the document you saw that in. Sometimes words or phrases are interpreted differently, depending on the context from where they are read.
Clearly we have different interpretations. https://twitter.com/jezhumble/status/929015035808112640?s=20
Another book for the recommended reading list: https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-NOKIA-Paranoid-Optimism-Colossal-ebook/dp/B07BNTT573
This was unpleasant - my Slack died
"we will make people speak up!" - seems very intrusive and will produce inauthenticity
sounds like "the system rewards staying within the lines, not innovation"
In some cases we will be bucking the system by creating psychological safety @dave as it's built on command and control
@jonathansmart1 is there a CPSP talk in the future... forcing people to be vulnerable and speak up.. collecting and satirinzing all the anti-patterns? hehe
"Do we agree?" really meaning "we'll keep going until you agree with me"
This sounds like the confidence vote at the end of PI Planning. "No resources have been added and no scope has been removed, is anyone still below a 3 now?"
COVID finished all our digital transformations anyhow didn't it? Hi there!
Hi @me1342 and @ffion great to have you presenting! Glad you found our community!
Please tell us what you really think, and ask hard questions --- as long as what you thinks is what we want and you don't ask or challenge what we are uncomfortable with...
@nickeggleston and we'll never change the way we think or do anything!
Does a bit and not genius but better than the yearly survey
wow....mind blowing....Human Debt? never thought of that...
We started to BPM (Blameless Post Mortem) that really did not feel very “B” so I had the leadership stop and read Dekker’s books “Just Culture” and “Drift into failure”. This changed the way “B” was being seen and approached..
So much to say about blame and responsibility
I had built a safe team culture by doing Team BPM and everyone was comfortable talking about their involvement and actions etc.. then when the org adpoted BPM many of the managers were looking at the Who and stopping there… Making my team feel very uncomfortable… I stepped in and started to push beyond the Who, only using them as a first person experience, then dove more in the Why, How, What, and what can done to prevent… This changed the direction and feeling of the investigation and outcomes..
That was when I started a Manager book-club with Dekker books..
@dan.sloan putting the collective behaviour at the top of the agenda drives performance directly
We have measured PS at a macro-level through our enterprise-wise pulse survey, but I would love suggestions for what the KR in OKR might look like for PS at a more local level? Given that it's a group-level phenom, we haven't gotten as much out of the pulse data; seems like a local level would be more relevant in the group context. Appreciate any insights you can share!
Here's some hands-on stuff as well! You can do this today with or without us - please do
How do you get the feedback loop on PS behavioural norms in relation to how a leader acts and rewards certain behaviours (in an image of their own view of good behaviour)? i.e. a leader with a low PS behavioural norm is least likely to ask for a feedback loop on PS. e.g. Westrum pathalogical cultural type
The Dashboard we created reinforces the loop irrespective of the leader's view. A bit devious like that 🙂
Then their boss can shout at them to have better PS or else 😉
No one but the team sees these - bubble level not an organisational tool 🙂
How does a manager / leader / commander, who reinforces the behavioural norms get a feedback loop?
e.g. the commercial managers at Boeing who didn't listen to the engineering managers
My favourite ones. Today we had a design session on doing those in a 3D virtual world
Do you have recommendations for improving psychological safety for teams that may include a deaf member or similar?
Isn't virtual an equaliser?
Not always with video/voice chat being the typical for team functions
Inclusivity is critical for psychological safety, empathy with everyone's needs will be required. Leader 1:1 with everyone to understand their needs coupled with open honest discussion within the team. This relates also to setting teams up really well for the hybrid work environment - teams need to be open and honest with each other about their needs and barriers to success so they can work out their own bespoke ways of working
Apologies for saying "us in Europe" :face_with_hand_over_mouth:
There's more on our thinking, how to encourage Speaking Up and discourage Impression Management at http://www.psychologicalsafety.works but a lot of the hints, suggestions and interventions that we do with some teams are detailed in our YouTube channel where we publish every Tuesday https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLx8H_55ay1TLBRtaqrvyvCRmLrFIFM_tqand on LinkedIn in the Chasing Psychological Safety series: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/chasing-psychological-safety-6500675038520365056 and The Future Is Agile series:https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/the-future-is-agile-6506407395235815424/
Anyone have a case study on building PS specifically geared for Americans leading distributed international teams?
What makes you think there's a cultural component? We work with teams globally - haven't seen differences
There was a keynote presentation at All Things Open ~2yrs ago about this. She referred to a book about global cultures.
When there are remote offices with entrenched culture, or just a large difference in culture, you can find that you're speaking a different variety of english.
Agreed, but it is up to the team to recognise that sometimes we need to actually get a no across, and figure out a way to do that, that is comfortable to the team.
At least until it becomes clear to the team that it's OK and expected (it's culturally uncomfortable, but really necessary for americans)
It seems clear in my experience that it is consious work that needs to be done for cultural as well as other reasons - it seems like there could/would be a case study on that somewhere.
We had a discussion on working on a cultural aspect for a study as it stands to reason but I haven't seen any data in the teams that are using the software to support that
Beyond how some german teams don't like humour :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
My understanding of PS might be too shallow or I'm trying to extend the concept too far but i fail to understand how the same factors that impact culture more broadly wouldn't impact PS when I see them daily in how team members (and leadership) interact with each other.
I think this is the book https://smile.amazon.com/Culture-Map-Breaking-Invisible-Boundaries/dp/1610392507/ref=sr_1_1?crid=26DWOGI6VOK8A&dchild=1&keywords=global+culture&qid=1602712564&sprefix=global+culture%2Caps%2C154&sr=8-1
@adam.eury the degree to which people are willing to engage initially vary, the different leadership styles differ, the amount of impression management they have and how great the Human Debt is varies BUT ultimately, at the end of the day, if you reach people - if you really get to the bottom of the concepts in the people work then it equalises as they are general human behaviours
I really loved the Google research in this area and am glad that this group has picked up on it.
This group is seriously switched on to psychological safety and the Google research is totally fascinating stuff.